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[0:18] Mike Abrams: Welcome to The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of the catastrophe. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have another amazing guest. He was on the Royal Caribbean Cruise Line's Oasis of the Sea as Tumble Brutus, and then he was also one of the twins. And then most recently, he is currently Bill Bailey in the 2019 Vienna Revival, which is still running. So thank you, Matthew Levick, and thank you for joining me.

[0:39] Matthew Levick: Thank you for having me.

[0:41] Mike Abrams: I'm excited. I always love talking to a different production, which is I've not talked to anybody from the Vienna production. I also love talking to a character that I know a little bit less about. But before we dive into really those two topics, which I think are going to be key, I love hearing always your history with the show before being in the show. How familiar were you? The show's been running for 40 plus years. How much did you know about it before you decided to get on the cruise ship and be Tumble Brutus?

[1:12] Matthew Levick: All right. Well, this is quite funny. To be honest, I had no idea about Cats. I mean, I knew Cats was a musical, but I had no idea what it was about. And I actually was working for Royal Caribbean beforehand and I had a contract lined up as an acrobat dancer on another ship. Anyway, the casting team of Royal Caribbean got in touch and said, hey, Matt, we're looking to fill the position of Tumble Brutus. Would you be interested? And I was a bit like, Cats? Tumble Brutus? I don't know anything about Cats. And at the time, I was not really so much into theatre. I was more like a dancer, acrobat, commercial side of the world. And that came about and I talked to my best friend at home, Sasha, and she is a Cats mega fan.

I mean, when she was younger, she, you know, she was a Mungojerrie Rumple teaser in her back garden. And, you know, she was like, you need to do the show. You're perfect for it. And we sat down in her living room and we watched the 1998 movie. And she was pointing out, that's you. That's what you're going to do. That's what you're going to do. Anyway, one thing led to another. And all of a sudden, I'm in Miami rehearsing for Cats. And it really, you know, it changed my whole perspective on where I wanted my career to go and what I saw myself as, as a performer. And this really shaped me into who I am now. And I'm actually so grateful that I was contacted to be a part of the show.

[2:49] Mike Abrams: That's pretty crazy. So that this is a it feels like a different version. Almost everyone I've talked to is either a singer or dancer, and they're either like a theater junkie or they knew that this was their profession. And you were an acrobatic dancer doing stuff on the cruise. And you got asked and all of a sudden it's now completely changed your career trajectory.

[3:11] Matthew Levick: Absolutely. For the better, I'd say.

[3:14] Mike Abrams: Yeah, that is amazing. So you, I would love to, it sounds like your friend Sasha needs to come on the show. So what was that experience like coming from knowing nothing to seeing that 1998 movie?

[3:26] Matthew Levick: It was interesting, because at the back of my mind, I was always like, I wonder what like musical theater is like. Like, for some reason, I always thought I was not that kind of performer. So I never got into it. But the more I dwelled into the world of Cats and theater, I realized that this is actually really cool. And it was the point when I got to Miami and I was meeting all different cast members and they were telling me who they are, what cats they play and all this stuff. I was just so confused. I was like, OK, you're playing Tantamile. Who's Tantamile? Oh, you're Bombalurina. Who's Bombalurina? But you quickly just click.

[4:06] Mike Abrams: I totally understand where you're coming from. As someone who saw a stage production without a lot of knowledge going in. I've even watched a 1998 movie with more knowledge now. And I still can't imagine, like, you know, you had a friend pointing out, someone who was a fan pointing out what to watch. I watch it. I've joked that, but it was true. I watched the first time on a plane, on an iPad. And so I kind of bought it. I was watching it on a plane, on an iPad, and I was so lost. And everyone around me looked at me like I was crazy. And I just can't imagine the, you know, like this all of a sudden you're kind of thrown into this whirlwind and you're learning about Bombalurina and some Mistoffelees and Tugger and all these kind of crazy names and trying to figure out what it is.

At the same time, knowing you're about to enter the show and be a performer and dancer as part of it. That's pretty wild. What was that rehearsal process like for you? Were you kind of given a lot to, like, go as Tumble Brutus? Were you given a lot of backstory for Tumble Brutus? Or was it really just focused on, like, hey, you got to really tumble and dance your way through this show. Here's kind of what matters more.

[5:18] Matthew Levick: Yeah, well, the Royal Caribbean director, Michael Clowes, he's absolutely a cat junkie. And he made the work process so fun and so detailed that it really made me sort of force into the world of who this character was and how I need to portray it, not just as the character, but as the show in general, for example.

[5:46] Mike Abrams: Well, tell me more about that. What is, how do you play Tumble Brutus and how does he fit into the story?

[5:52] Matthew Levick: OK, so Tumble Brutus is the youngest kitten and he is a bit clumsy. He's, you know, does all roly polies and he's just a fun little kitten. And he doesn't really have a full grasp of the situation and the scenario of the night, so-called the Jellicle Ball. So the other thing I was, so I tried to look a little bit into Tumble Brutus. Did you give his, were you given his three words?

[6:19] Matthew Levick: Yeah, I was. This funny thing is between the two productions I've done, two different companies have been given three different words. And the words were clumsy, acrobatic and energetic.

[6:32] Mike Abrams: OK.

[6:33] Matthew Levick: I mean, that's pretty describable words. I know a lot of other cats have words who are kind of more tricky to interpret. But I think mine are very simple and straightforward of who the character is. And, you know, me personally, as a person, I am Tumble Brutus. I'm a bit clumsy. I'm quite silly. I'm a humorous person. And I think the role sort of fit me very naturally. So I think going into the show in the rehearsal process, I just took who I was as a person and used these three words to create a character that was, yes, the character, but also me.

[7:14] Mike Abrams: That makes sense. Yeah. And I think that that's a cool part is when it does kind of embody you. I do find as someone who's not in an acting world or in the world at all, it's like I've asked and wondered, is it more fun to be a character that's kind of like your personality or is it fun to be somebody that's the exact opposite of you? Because it feels like I've talked to both. And there's some people it's like, I'm not at all this person. So it was really fun to portray that on stage. Or it's like, this is me. And so it's been really easy and fun, too.

[7:43] Matthew Levick: Yeah, I see it from both sides. I mean, I haven't really portrayed a character that is so not like me. So it's hard to say, but I think that is a very strong acting tool that one can have to play something that's totally not them.

[8:00] Mike Abrams: Now, I want to hear a little bit about the Oasis of the Sea experience, because it is different than especially what you're doing now, where you're doing much more shows a week and to a paying crowd, I guess is probably the better term, you know, a crowd that's actively seeking out your show versus being, I think, what is it, three shows a week? And it's a part of there. So what was that experience like? What type of crowds and audiences did you get? And tell me some crazy stories about your experience there.

[8:31] Matthew Levick: I think the biggest difference between Oasis and Vienna is the audience. And I think you've probably heard it before, but the Oasis, it's just not a cruise ship show. You know, you don't go on a seven day holiday to watch Cats. I mean, if you would, I think if I was going on a cruise ship and throughout the Caribbean, I would want to see something fun and energetic and not that Cats isn't, but it's just very artistic show. And you can definitely see the difference coming from that world of, you know, holiday makers to a world in Vienna, for example, where people pay so much money to watch this particular show.

[9:14] Mike Abrams: Yeah. And that was a part that I kind of was thinking back when I started learning about the Oasis of the Sea performances is that it's a two and a half hour plus show. And I kept thinking of all the cruises I've ever been on in my life. Has there ever been a time where I've sat down inside, you know, like not out of the pool for that long for any of these things? It's like, no, it's probably 30 minutes, 60 minutes, a little variety show or comedy show. Yeah. But a full musical production is a different experience and especially something that I believe it's not paid. Right. You just come and grab seats or you ask for seats because you've already paid for the cruise. Did you was that how challenging was that, though, with, I guess, a passive audience more than a audience that's really there to see?

[10:01] Matthew Levick: Well, it's all we knew at the time, and that was my first time doing Cats. So, you know, my white cat at the time, she said, you know, I'm not doing it for the audience. I'm doing it for myself. And as soon as I got that in my system, you just learn to knock out the audience and just do it for yourself. Enjoy it, because some days it can be really crappy when you were like Cats, especially going balls to the walls with your energy and you're just not getting anything back from the audience. And I think that was the most challenging part of Oasis was this audience not giving you what you're giving to them, and I think that is a big difference with Vienna is you have so much energy coming towards the stage that sometimes you don't have the energy to give back.

[10:49] Mike Abrams: You know, yeah, it is such a physically demanding show and such a, you know, there's a lot of history of injuries because of how hard it is. And so to think about that and then know that the crowd is there, you know, and potentially leaving an intermission or are dipping out is I think it's challenging. I think it's interesting to hear that it's all about for you. So I kind of like that, that idea you did. It seems like you did two different tours on the Oasis of the Sea. Is that true?

[11:19] Matthew Levick: Yeah. So I did my first full contract as Tumble Brutus, and then I moved to London to try out the scene there. And then I was contacted again by Royal Caribbean because the cast after me, the character that had injured himself and they had asked if I was available. And it was actually funny because I was at an audition for like a sort of more regional theatre version of Cats when I got this email and I got actually cut from the audition. And I was a bit like, oh, I've done the original show. I can't even get through the audition for like a regional production. And I looked at my phone and it's like, hey, Matthew, we need a choreographed replacement ASAP. Would you be interested? And at the time I was really sort of down and a bit like I wasn't working and I just felt really unmotivated with my career.

And then I was like, yeah, let's go. Let's do it. When do you need me? And they said, can you leave tomorrow? And I was like, yeah, sure. So I went back home and I packed my bags and I flew to Jamaica and I joined Cats as choreographed for a few months. And that was so fun because I was with a different cast playing a different role and it was just different atmosphere. But it was also so much fun to rejoin the show.

[12:38] Matthew Levick: What is it, I guess, what's the process like when you have played one character for so long, and then you're coming in as another character, which is a different dance number? And I mean, obviously, you're an experienced dancer and a tumbler. But then also, I think you've covered Mistoffelees. So you also had to kind of be ready to cover that dance number as well. What's that process like? For me, personally, I don't think it's as challenging. I think you step in knowing what you're in for. And when you're in the show, you know, I mean, you never know. But for example, I know I'm only the second cover of Mistoffelees, for example. So I know the chances of me going on that are quite rare. So as long as you can slowly work your way up to the standard of being Mistoffelees, you have the time to take the character. And being in the show three, four times a week, you know that you're seeing that character all the time.

[13:36] Mike Abrams: Yeah, it does. Because you're kind of, you know, interacting with that character. And then you get to kind of embrace them a little bit. And then, I mean, I find the whole learning totally different dance tracks to be mind-blowing. But then I think about, you know, this is your profession. And, you know, all the talented people that do this, it's probably not as difficult. I mean, I don't want to downplay it. It's probably extremely difficult. But it's something that you're good at and used to doing.

[14:02] Matthew Levick: So two tours. It sounds like we're, you know, military, but two different cruise ship experiences. And then talk me through how Vienna pops up. Okay. So this is another funny story. I go back to London after my Corrie Capac contract. And I'm there for about a month. And my agent contacts me and says, hey, Matt, this Vienna Cats, they're auditioning for these three roles because they were sort of short on time and they hadn't found a Carbuckety, Bill Bailey, or a swing to cover those roles. And I was a bit like, I've just done Cats twice. I sort of want to move in another direction. But I'll go to the audition anyway. And I go to the audition. And it was one of those things where, you know, they were tight for time.

And I had done the show before. And I knew as soon as I was in that room, I was like, okay, maybe this is meant to be because I'm sort of the only one here who is tumbling and dancing. So it was sort of a mind twirl. And then I left the audition and within an hour, because the contract started three weeks later after this audition, and I got home an hour later, and my agent called me and he was a bit cheeky. And he was like, oh, hey, how did the audition go? And I was like, yeah, I actually think I did really well. And he's like, oh, well, it must have gone well because you got the job. And I was like, wait, what? I was like, I just came out of the audition. And anyone who knows theatre, sometimes it can take months and months before you hear anything.

And I'm hearing an hour after the audition. So then, you know, all of a sudden, I'm like, okay, I need to change my life perspectives and my goals because I'm moving to Vienna in three weeks. And I moved to Vienna, and I must say it was the most overwhelming thing I've ever done in my life. I didn't really know Austria or Vienna. It's all everyone speaks German. It was just a very overwhelming experience. And I remember going through the rehearsal period. And the only thing I had to focus on was the language because I knew the show. And I think that was a very cool benefit for me. So I could just focus on learning the German and really getting to know the city and my surroundings and whatever, because as I said, it was very overwhelming.

And then we opened. And that's when I sort of settled down. And I was like, okay, this is where I'm going to be for the next 11 months. And then that year passed. Corona happened. And then we opened again. We closed again. We opened again. And now we've closed again. And I've been here almost two and a half years. But I must say that it was sort of meant to be because I'm really feeling at home in Vienna. And I love the show so much here.

[16:55] Mike Abrams: Yeah. And I think you are going to be opening again. So it's just more of a break. I want to hear a little bit about learning the show in a new language, because did you know any German at all before you got there?

[17:09] Matthew Levick: I did not. So when I got the job in London, I spent the next three weeks sort of preparing what I needed to prepare. And I was just gone like Duolingo. If you know languages, Duolingo is what everyone uses. And I'm trying to learn. Guten Tag, like good day. I had no idea about language. Anyway, coming to the show, I think I picked it up easier than I thought because I knew the music and I knew the show. So instead of worrying about the music and the harmonies and stuff, I'm just sort of learning new words. And the process was actually a lot easier than I thought. And we did a lot, a lot of phonetic lessons. So that's meaning that I had one-on-one sessions with a German phonetic coach pronouncing my lines, the whole show one-on-one.

And I think it was so overwhelming, especially learning Skimbleshanks, which is so fast and learning it in another language that you don't understand, you don't know what you're saying. And that was definitely a challenge. I remember going to rehearsals almost every day with my notebook on the train, word by word, learning the lyrics. But as soon as it's in your body and it's, you know, cats, it's very repetitive. So you're doing it every day and eventually it just sits. And then after a while you, you sort of forget about the language.

[18:41] Mike Abrams: So you were, I know you're, you're Bill Bailey, but then you were swing. So who else, you said Skimbleshanks, who else did you have to learn to cover?

[18:44] Matthew Levick: So I was Bill Bailey in my last two contracts, but now I'm changing to swing. So I'm going to be doing Bill Bailey, Kabakdi, Korekat, Alonzo, and Mistoffelees.

[19:02] Mike Abrams: Okay. So you are, I guess it just is, it blows my mind, the learning in a new language. I'm, I do, I, I, I love hearing it's like, okay, well, I know the dancing. I already know the numbers. I know that part. So I do just have to focus on not even the, and you know, the music, it's just purely the words and the phonetics. Do you, did you like, do you feel like you learned the language and the words, or was it just, you were singing out whatever it kind of felt like, like, I guess part of me, maybe it's just the humorous version of me. I keep thinking like you're walking around Austria and all you're talking about is like memory and trains and, um, and just whatever, you know, the songs are, those are like the only part of German, you know, now, like, have you picked up the language through this or is it just part of like now just, you know how to sing those songs?

[19:51] Matthew Levick: I mean, at first I must say I had no idea what I was saying. I mean, the translation is somewhat equal to English, but then there's some parts which are completely different. And at times you just like, you're just speaking what you've learned, but you have no idea what you're saying. Um, and that was really strange, but over time I've consciously learned the language. So now I know what I'm saying. And I think I got to a point when I was like, you know, I'm doing this every day and I'm listening and I'm singing in this language. Why don't I consciously learn what I'm actually saying? So I definitely took the time and I did private German lessons to pick up the language. And also in my own time learning the German script, what it actually translated to and what it meant. And I think because of that, it definitely helped my progression of learning German a lot faster.

[20:41] Mike Abrams: Yeah, that makes, that makes a ton of sense. I just, it is such a wild thing to think about going from doing it in English to doing it in any language, let alone German, which is a fairly harsh language. So it is, it is kind of a, uh, an interesting one to think about singing sometimes such beautiful songs that are being translated into a heavy consonant, uh, language.

[21:03] Matthew Levick: Yeah. I think the beauty of it is from my side, I've done the show in English in a language that is my language. So I I've been through that experience and I think what a few people in my cast, for example, find hard is this is their first contract of cats, but German isn't their native language. So they just don't really understand what is being said completely, you know? And I think I have the satisfaction of knowing what that is in English.

[21:36] Mike Abrams: That's an interesting part too, because I do like in English watching it, I feel like it's a fairly challenging story to follow. Um, obviously that's kind of the, what I've made fun of the whole time is the story. Um, but trying to pick that up in a new language and just, again, just being able to perform it and then actually be able to understand it and try to embody the three words and everything else that you need to know about the character has to be crazy difficult. I'd love to hear a little bit about the, uh, like the Austrian audience. Like, you know, you said that it is a very energetic audience, like how this has been on for a while now, this is a revival. So it's been at least multiple tours there, uh, being there. What is the reaction like from, from the crowds there?

[22:10] Matthew Levick: Well, theater in Vienna is huge. I mean, like our production, we have one of the biggest casts. We have a huge orchestra, I think 27 or 28 people in the orchestra, which is huge. Um, beautiful, huge theater. I think it comes from the culture of theater in Vienna that it is so massive.

[22:30] Mike Abrams: Okay. So it is a, already a, like, you know, it's just a common part of what happens. People go to theater pretty, pretty, um, frequently is it. And so I guess they're going to be knowledgeable about the history of the show.

[23:03] Matthew Levick: Yeah. So cats here, it opened in London in 1981, then followed Broadway and then followed Vienna. And it ran in Vienna for seven, eight or eight years in the eighties. So, and this is the first revival that's been done here since. So I think a lot of people come to see the show because of its history in Vienna as well, as it also being such a successful show worldwide.

[23:32] Mike Abrams: Yeah. That makes sense. So it's a, this is a revival. It's almost Broadway-ish of like, it was here 20, almost 30 years ago. And now it's, it's, it's back.

[23:41] Matthew Levick: Basically the same thing. Yeah.

[23:43] Mike Abrams: I want to talk a little bit about the characters. I mean, we talked a little bit about Tumblebrutus's like personality, but there's a couple of things I want to try to clarify and just kind of ask your opinion on, on, on the backstories of these characters. Cause there's, I haven't talked a ton about Tumblebrutus and Bill Bailey. So my interpretation is that's the same character just with a different name. Is that right?

[24:06] Matthew Levick: Yeah. Yes. I mean, I'm not exactly sure why the name's changed between the U.S. and so say the European UK version, but it is the same character.

[24:19] Mike Abrams: So, okay. So you're, so it's the exact same three words, same characters, same thing. Just they've changed the name because why, why not? There's so many names thrown in and the naming of cats. So one other thing I read, and I don't know if this is, I kind of want to validate this, but it does, you do not do the dance with Victoria, right? That is now Plato or Alonzo.

[24:39] Matthew Levick: Yes, that is Plato. However, I know in certain productions, it has been Bill Bailey.

[24:50] Mike Abrams: Yeah. So it was, so what I read was it was pre 1998. It was Bill Bailey. So I guess I was curious if that's something that you was even discussed or if it was ever just like, no, we're not doing this anymore. This is the person doing that kind of coming of age dance with Victoria.

[25:07] Matthew Levick: Yeah. I mean, from my experience, I was never asked to do it. It was just always Plato, Edmetus, who did that with Victoria.

[25:16] Mike Abrams: Okay, and then my other kind of question about Tumble Brutus and Bill Bailey being the youngest cats. Do you feel that you even have a chance to be picked as a Jellicle choice at the ball? Are you just kind of there?

[25:30] Matthew Levick: I think I'm just sort of there, but my character choices indicate that I'm young and a bit silly and I think, you know, if Grandma can be voted, so can I. So I add that into my character a bit as a joke, but I think deep down I know that I'm young and no, I'm not going to the Heaviside Layer. Okay, so of course you have to play because like everyone's eligible, although that's debatable because I'm not sure if Old Deuteronomy is, but you got to put your best foot forward, but you kind of know.

[25:58] Mike Abrams: Okay, that's kind of the way I thought about it too, but it is an interesting piece because everyone kind of wants to, in the ball, make their case. And what do you do for the younger kittens, especially the youngest one that is kind of rambunctious? Maybe that's the right term. I'm trying to think of the right word I would call Tumble Brutus.

[26:19] Matthew Levick: Bill Bailey. I like that it's just renaming people. That's the other one in the U.S. is they renamed somebody to Peter, which is my pet peeve. I don't like Peter in the Broadway revival.

[26:36] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Let's jump into some rapid fire. I want to talk about a couple, I want to ask a couple kind of quick questions about this and then talk about Grizabella and my thesis here, but who, you've played a lot, you're swinging for multiple cats, but if there was just, if you could do any role, any gender, any character, anything in the show, which track would you want to do one time?

[27:00] Matthew Levick: Bomba Algera. I don't know. I just think that is, if I was a woman and I was sexy, that would be me. I think that it's just such a fun role. You get to do a bit of best worlds. You get to sing, you get to dance, you get to be sexy. And hands down, that's who I would choose to be. I still think that that number has turned into one of my favorite songs where "Macavity," where it's just like, it's so catchy. It is so catchy.

[27:34] Mike Abrams: Who's your favorite and least favorite cat?

[27:40] Matthew Levick: Oh, that's a really tricky one. It depends what you want to, from what side you want to know. I think my favorite cat overall would probably be Bomba Algera.

[27:48] Mike Abrams: Okay.

[27:53] Matthew Levick: For the same reasons mentioned before. And I think my least favorite cat. Oh, I don't know. I think maybe Coricopat and Pouncival.

[28:02] Mike Abrams: The other, the other young ones?

[28:08] Matthew Levick: Yeah, probably.

[28:11] Mike Abrams: What are the other angles you could answer that question from? Like as Bill Bailey, Tumble Brutus, or like, what are the, you said multiple ways you could answer this.

[28:16] Matthew Levick: I don't know. I think that Coricopat and Bill Bailey are sort of the two young boys. And I think, you know, from the way I play the character is, you know, I want to outshine. I want to be the young little funny boy. And I think when you have a competition like Coricopat, you know, you don't want him there. And I think that makes me be like, okay, you don't need to be here.

[28:36] Mike Abrams: Yeah, that makes sense. I do find it really interesting that you kind of, the character you play almost skews that answer. Because you spend so much time in that role that you have this like, not animosity, but you have to embrace kind of that, like that rivalry there.

[28:53] Matthew Levick: It's like an internal story.

[28:54] Mike Abrams: Yeah. It's like, it's part of, it just becomes part of you then.

[28:58] Matthew Levick: Yeah.

[28:59] Mike Abrams: What's your favorite song from the show?

[29:02] Matthew Levick: I would have to say "Memory."

[29:05] Mike Abrams: "Memory." Just the classic.

[29:07] Matthew Levick: The classic. I think it just, it doesn't get old. I mean, that's how I knew Cats before I knew Cats. My brother used to sing that song, taking the piss out of that song when we were really young, not knowing where the song came from. But I always knew that. And doing the show now, you realize what that show means and the journey Grizabella has gone on. And I think that song is so beautiful. And it never really gets old.

[29:31] Mike Abrams: I mean, I agree. That's the only song I knew going in. It's not the song I, I still love it. It's still such a powerful belt. But it's for me, it's always, it's "Macavity" now, but it changes. It was "Mungojerrie and Rumpelteazer" when I first saw it. And that one was stuck in my head for weeks.

[29:48] Matthew Levick: Yeah. The thing is, there's so many of the, so many of the songs are so catchy. And I think maybe it just depends on your mood.

[29:55] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[29:57] Matthew Levick: What's your favorite one in German to perform?

[30:02] Mike Abrams: I don't know. In German, maybe the opening.

[30:05] Matthew Levick: The opening?

[30:06] Mike Abrams: Yeah, that's fun. You know, it's a buildup of, of lyrics and, and dialogue that, and then it sort of blasts off into this big opening with everyone. And I think it's really fun.

[30:17] Matthew Levick: Yeah, that's, that's fun. I really want to see other versions of the show now. Like, I want to see a German version, just to experience it. But I've got to figure out how to get across the pond to get there.

[30:27] Mike Abrams: Which cat do you think would be living their best life on a cruise ship?

[30:35] Matthew Levick: As a cat.

[30:37] Mike Abrams: As a, you know, if they're, the personality-wise, like, which one is taking that seven-day cruise and, and really living it up?

[30:46] Matthew Levick: I think, again, I would have to say probably Bomba Algera.

[30:50] Mike Abrams: Yeah, just...

[30:51] Matthew Levick: You know, she's the girl at the bar. She is walking. She is sunbathing. She's on the cocktails, but, you know, she's living the dream.

[31:00] Mike Abrams: Yeah, I can, I can totally see that. She's got her day, she's at the club at nights, and at the bar, and kind of embracing everything that the boat has to offer.

[31:10] Matthew Levick: I've always said, I've always said Bustopher Jones, because I think he's at every full, you know, buffet, and, you know, throwing money down at the casino. And that's how I think he's taken full advantage of everything on that ship.

[31:26] Matthew Levick: Yeah, somewhat. But I think Bustopher Jones is a bit too posh for the cruise ship.

[31:31] Mike Abrams: Oh, okay.

[31:32] Matthew Levick: I think, you know, he's in the back streets of the clubs that, you know, you need to be on the list to get into. I don't think he's on the Royal Caribbean cruise.

[31:44] Mike Abrams: Yeah, he's probably on his own yacht.

[31:47] Matthew Levick: Yeah.

[31:48] Mike Abrams: Amazing. Okay, so the million dollar question, which is what I've argued at length, so I hope you know this question was coming. But I don't think Grizabella should be the Jellicle choice. So I'd love to hear, if you agree with me, who would you want to send to the Heaviside Layer? And if you do think it's Grizabella, let's hear the defense.

[32:09] Matthew Levick: Okay. I mean, I don't want to say no. I think if anyone else, it would be Gus. But then Gus, he's had a good life, you know, he's ready to go. So if it's not Gus, I would, I would have to say Grizabella. I think she deserves a chance.

[32:27] Mike Abrams: To be reborn.

[32:29] Matthew Levick: Yeah, so give me the, like, give me the, the why, though. Like, why is she more deserving than everyone else that's putting their name in the hat?

[32:37] Matthew Levick: I think that everyone else is sort of okay at this moment of choice on this night. Besides Gus, who's very old, I think everyone else can last another year or doesn't necessarily need to be chosen. But I think on this particular day, at this particular moment, Grizabella is definitely the one who needs the chance.

[33:04] Mike Abrams: So I find that argument really interesting, and I've heard it a couple of times. It's a, everyone else can make it through next year. Everyone, I mean, let's take Gus out of the equation because Gus is a very common argument, non-Grizabella. But I find that Grizabella argument really interesting because it's like a, we're rewarding somebody with the biggest prize of our year because they need it versus maybe deserve it. And I find that part really, like, that's not the, the angle I first took, but it's the part that is kind of, as I've heard more and more people say, like, she's not going to make it next year. And so she needs it. She, she has to have it or, or she's done. My question is, is that why does she deserve it though? She's coming back, she abandoned the tribe. I can get the, that she needs it, but does that mean that she should still be picked?

[34:04] Matthew Levick: It's, it's a tricky one. When you use those words, need or deserve, I think that definitely changes his perspective. And I don't think she necessarily deserves it. And I think it really depends on how you personally interpret the show. And I don't really have a defense because, you know, I think no one besides Gus, for example, needs to be chosen.

[34:19] Mike Abrams: I agree with that.

[34:21] Matthew Levick: And I think a lot of people deserve to be chosen, but I don't think anyone is at a point where they need to go to the Heaviside Layer besides Grizabella.

[34:30] Mike Abrams: I, so I don't disagree with that. I think it's Gus and Grizabella are the two with need, but I then question Old Deuteronomy of, are we just picking the person that kind of, that, you know, that's, that has to go versus that deserves to go. And it's like, then, then I'm questioning, am I in the right cult? Because that's what the Jellicles are. They're a cult. Let's, let's not dance around it too much. So they're a cult. And if we're just going to pick the person that's like the least healthy every year, then why am I even performing? Like I'm going to put, here's why I deserve it. And then they're just not going to pick it. I need to like collapse on the ground like Grizabella.

[35:04] Matthew Levick: I think somewhat she is deserving. I mean, I know at the beginning of the show, she's like, why is she here? I get out of here. You don't deserve this. You don't, you know, but then I, she keeps begging and begging and she, she shows you what she's been through. I mean, she was once a Jellicle, you know, and all she wants is to be reborn and to relive and show who she really is or really was. So I think somewhat she is deserving of it, even though it sort of happened so suddenly.

[35:42] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Okay. I'm not, I'm not here to change everyone's mind. I'm just here to change most people's mind. And so I, uh, and, and influence the backstory of the show. That's, that's my goal with this. So, um, I appreciate your, you know, the way you're, you're approaching it, the thoughtfulness. And I'm glad that you're just like, ah, maybe she doesn't deserve it. So I'm getting there. I'm getting there with each person slowly, but surely.

[36:05] Matthew Levick: So you are reopening, um, in Vienna. How can people come see the show if they are in Austria?

[36:11] Mike Abrams: If they are in Austria?

[36:12] Matthew Levick: Well, if they want to come see you, I mean, you're going to be reopening soon.

[36:16] Matthew Levick: Yeah. So we're reopening in September. I think the easiest thing to do is just pop online or come to the theater box office and just get your tickets. I mean, Vienna is such a popular tourist destination. And I think if you're here, why not see the show in another language?

[36:33] Mike Abrams: Absolutely. I mean, it sounds like a...

[36:35] Matthew Levick: And it's, it's one of the biggest, biggest Cats productions that's, that has ever been around. So I think everyone needs to witness that.

[36:44] Mike Abrams: Everyone should definitely come if they are traveling to Austria or in Austria, you should go see it. Um, how else can we stay in touch with you on social media and keep up with everything else you're doing?

[36:55] Matthew Levick: Yeah. So I'm on Instagram. I post how I do, where I am, what I'm doing, where I'm at. And my link is at Matthew Levick on Instagram. Come find me.

[37:10] Mike Abrams: Well, thank you so much for, uh, jumping on recording, um, sharing your experience of, of multiple different productions and, and enlightening me a little bit on Bill Bailey. I was not as familiar, uh, until this episode. So I appreciate you sharing, sharing your knowledge and your experiences.

[37:27] Matthew Levick: Thank you for being here. And thank you for listening to this episode of The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of the Cats atrophy. To follow along, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or anywhere else you listen to podcasts. Follow us on Twitter and Instagram at The Wrong Cat Died or check out our website, thewrongcatdied.com.