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[0:18] Mike Abrams: Welcome to The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of Catastrophe. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and I am very excited about today's guest.

[0:24] Mike Abrams: He has been hosting his own comedy show called How To Live A Jellicle Life, Life Lessons From the 2019 Hit Movie Musical CATS. So welcome, Linus Karp, and thank you for joining me.

[0:34] Linus Karp: Oh, thank you so much. I'm so thrilled to be here.

[0:38] Mike Abrams: I'm excited because I did get to watch your show, and it is hysterical and so fun. So I'd love to start, though. I always start at the beginning, which was, did you ever see the stage performance before you saw the movie? And like, when did you get introduced to CATS, the musical, not the 2019 movie?

[0:57] Linus Karp: Well, thank you very much. First of all, I actually went into the cinema not knowing much about CATS at all. I'd never seen a stage version. I mean, I knew of "Memory," basically, like I didn't really know anything else. And obviously, yeah, so I had like no Jellicle knowledge at all. And I went in there and it just blew my mind and changed my world. My partner had grown up watching the 1998 filmed version of it many times, but I never had. And I mean, since then, I have watched it many times, and I really wanted to come back onto stage in London so I can actually see it live. But yeah, the film was sort of the first introduction to CATS for me.

[1:47] Mike Abrams: Wow. So you see the 2019 movie, never seen it live, still haven't seen it live, but have now watched at least the '98 film. So you've seen the stage production just on TV.

[2:00] Linus Karp: Exactly. Yeah. So I've seen that one. I've seen many, many, many clips of various stage productions as well. I mean, and I can't wait to the day I actually get to be in an auditorium where it's happening live, though the film probably will delay that somewhat. Because obviously, that wasn't very well received, sadly.

[2:23] Mike Abrams: Yeah, totally. I want to talk a little bit about your show. I think it was, I mean, I know it's going to be coming back live again. You're doing a tour and people can watch it online. I watched it. I thought it was hysterical. So how soon after you watched the movie, did you realize that you needed to make this hour-long comedy show?

[2:47] Linus Karp: Yeah, I mean, I, because I, before, so at the end of 2019, I just finished my previous show. I had toured that and I was looking for something new, but I was really struggling to know what to do. And then I went to see CATS and I just couldn't stop thinking about it. And I couldn't stop listening to the soundtrack and reading all about it. And I went back to the cinema again and I just couldn't leave my head. And I was like, maybe I should do something CATS related. But then I thought, obviously, because people didn't really like the film, sadly, no one but me would be interested in it. But then I actually had, I have a friend who's a theatre director and he was putting together sort of a scratch night of new work.

And he knew of how obsessed I'd become with CATS. So he asked me if I wanted to do something CATS related for it. And that's when I sort of realized like, oh, people want this. And I just started working on it and I realized very quickly that actually this is not just like a 10-minute thing I do for one night off. This is like a full-length show I need to create.

[3:49] Mike Abrams: That is incredible.

[3:50] Linus Karp: It is.

[3:51] Mike Abrams: Yes, it's a passionate fan base globally, as I've learned with this podcast as well. So, I mean, I want to, without giving too much of it away, how would you kind of tell people who are going to watch this? Like, what are they going to see? Like, what can they expect?

[4:09] Linus Karp: I mean, it's quite a tricky one to describe, actually, I find. My partner, he tends to describe it as a TED talk from hell, which I think is probably quite accurate. It's very stupid and very queer, but it's very, I mean, we basically, it's called How to Live a Jellicle Life, Life Lessons from the 2019 hit movie musical CATS. And that's basically what it is. We take a look at all the Jellicle cats in CATS, what we can learn from them, what makes them Jellicle, and then how you can apply that to your life. And there's also loads of, you know, silly things throughout there as well to play with various games, audience interactions, etc. And just a very Jellicle evening. It's fun because a lot of, normally sort of half the audience have seen CATS, half the audience haven't, to start with. And so often after doing the show, I'll get these messages of people being like, I've now watched CATS. I feel like I've got so many people to actually watch the film, which I love.

[5:15] Mike Abrams: I love it. It sounds like you were on the same mission of slowly getting people involved with the musical and movie. The TED talk from hell is interesting. That's kind of a funny way to think about it. Because I was trying to explain to somebody, knowing that we were going to have this conversation, what I watched. I'm like, well, it was a really funny stand-up comedy show, but it was like a PowerPoint behind you. And you were using very clever ways to bring in the content behind you and the multimedia to enhance your comedy. And so TED talk is a very, I love that as the way to think about it.

[5:51] Linus Karp: Thank you. Yeah, I do.

[5:54] Mike Abrams: Oh, go, sorry.

[5:57] Linus Karp: I was just gonna say, as you were going through characters to learn from and kind of create the questions from, who was the hardest to write? Who was the hardest to pull out? And maybe who was the easiest when you were writing it?

[6:12] Linus Karp: Oh, good question. I think easiest may be, I mean, so many of them are such great characters. And I feel like what was hard many times was actually cutting it down. Because I was like, I could do this so much longer, but then you wanted to keep it like fun and short and snappy. I mean, Mr. Mistoffelees is my favorite, so him I could definitely have done it much longer about. I feel like Macavity you can have so much fun with. Bustopher Jones, I actually like, I had this long bit written and then I sort of cut it down because I thought actually keeping it really short and it probably would just work much better for the comedy aspect of that one. I mean, I think the harder ones are always the ones that don't necessarily have as much personality, I guess, in the film.

The ones that are harder to define. I mean, Victoria is probably like, she's a bit personality lacking in the film because she's just influenced by everyone else. But then you sort of make it about her journey rather than her personality, I guess, when you talk about her. And most, I mean, I don't know, I feel like I've given all the Jellicle cats in CATS so much thought. So actually, when I started writing it, the problem was having too much rather than not enough for all of them, really.

[7:41] Mike Abrams: Yeah, it is. I think that brings up an interesting question I have for you, which is, you know, you base this around the 2019 movie, which gives a pretty good indication of them compared to the stage personalities. It's fairly aligned. But there's also this entire fan Wikipedia page and me talking to other cast members, we filled in a lot of blanks on the personality. How much did you bring from the outside world in? Or was it really all just the 2019 movie and what you kind of thought from that?

[8:13] Linus Karp: This one is just the film. And as you say, obviously, a lot of the cats are similar to the stage version, but there are some that are quite different as well. And I thought for this one, I'm just going to focus on how they're portrayed in the film, because somehow that's even weirder than how they are in the stage show. And yeah, so I just stuck to the film version for this.

[8:40] Mike Abrams: So I want to hear what is your favorite part of the, like, what's your favorite joke or your favorite cat to kind of go through? I know you said your favorite is Mistoffelees is like the character. What's your favorite segment of your actual show?

[8:57] Linus Karp: I think I really like when I start talking about the reviews, and that becomes quite conspiratorial. I think that just has such a different vibe to the rest of the things in the show. And it's really nice to sort of, for a moment, get really like, calm and serious and have people hang on to this because so much of it is just wild and chaotic, I guess. So I really do enjoy that. I really enjoy all the audience interaction bits, because that's obviously always a bit different every night. And it's so fun to hear, like, when we do this sort of quizzes almost, to hear what people actually come up with. Yeah, those are always really fun. But overall, it's just such a fun show to perform. I feel like I've done quite a lot of solo shows before as well. But it's nice to do something that's just, I guess, joyous and fun from beginning to end, rather than it being too serious or too dark. People tend to just have a good time, and it's just very nice to be part of that.

[10:01] Mike Abrams: Yeah, I can tell you a part that I really loved, and I know because you put it on your social media, and it's been out. And I think you even alluded to some celebrities that responded to it. But you made a Jellicle name generator based on your first and last name and birthdays and stuff like that. And so I do have a little bit of a bone to pick with you, because I felt almost a little insulted by mine. I ended up as Grizzashanks the Conservative Cat. From the Midwest of the United States, where it's a fairly conservative area, I thought it was hand-picked for me here as someone who's not super conservative myself anymore.

[10:45] Linus Karp: Yeah, well, I'm sorry, but that's the Jellicle truth. The Jellicle gods have spoken. I mean, that name generator I had so much fun with. And I do think, because it's so many different options, and you can get really funny ones, really dull ones, really inappropriate ones. And I feel like it's just endless combinations. When you think you've seen them all, you hear someone with a new combination. I was very, very pleased when I came up with that name generator. You can kill hours with it.

[11:24] Mike Abrams: And what was yours? What was your output from it?

[11:31] Linus Karp: Let's see. I am Magical Star the Jellicle Cat. No, Jellicle Star the Magical Cat. But I gave myself a go.

[11:40] Linus Karp: I mean, I made it so I could make sure that the 7th of November, or if you have LK and the 7th, then you have a great name basically.

[11:51] Mike Abrams: I love it. Love it. Yeah. I assume that you kind of wrote yours to be kind of what you wanted since you, since you were moving the stuff around there. Um, I know you've been doing this for sold out shows and you said a little bit about the crowd reaction of people who you've influenced to go see the movie. How has, um, what is it like for an experience for someone who's not seen the movie before? And I know you said it's about 50/50, but like, do you, do you think that it's a funnier experience for that group or a funnier experience for the CATS diehards?

[12:21] Linus Karp: I think, I mean, I think having seen CATS is more of a bonus cause I don't feel like then you get like every single reference. But I think sometimes people who haven't seen CATS the film at all, cause I do show some images or brief clips from it. And you can see that they're shocked reactions at like Ian McKellen licking up milk or Judi Dench staring into the camera. Like is also just so like so joyous that they don't expect like, yeah. I mean, I don't think anyone ever can be prepared for CATS the film cause it has so many moments where you're like, I can't believe I'm watching this. And to sort of see people get a glimpse of that live is amazing. Um, and I want to make sure that actually like the show would work whether you'd seen CATS or not. So it's really nice to, to feel that even they're on board with it. But I do think if you've seen CATS it's even, it's even more for you.

[13:13] Mike Abrams: Yeah. I love that. Cause I, you know, I have kind of a similar thing here where I'm like, I don't think people will get this podcast most of the time if they haven't seen it. Um, either the movie or the show, cause it's, it's so niche and so like to the point. So I'm always just like, yeah, if you've never listened, never seen, it might be worth watching the movie before you listen to any episode or reading the Wikipedia page or something. Cause it's tough. But I did feel like for your show, like with it being comedy and you kind of also giving an explanation, like a lot of the part of that TED talk version is you explaining a little bit. So everyone kind of has the knowledge before you get into the jokes around it, which I loved.

[13:51] Linus Karp: Oh yeah, exactly. Yeah. Thank you. Um, yeah. And I think especially with the film, people are so aware of the phenomenon that is the 2019 hit movie musical CATS. Um, so people are already, so have so many thoughts and feelings and opinions about it, even if they haven't seen it. Um, which is quite fun to play with, I guess.

[14:11] Mike Abrams: Do you get listeners who haven't seen CATS at all?

[14:17] Linus Karp: I don't think unless they're like friends and family members from home that are listening to support me. Um, but no, I don't, I don't think there's many. I think maybe in the beginning because the first 10 ish or so episodes was me explaining the cat and then why I didn't think they should be picked or why I thought they should be picked over Grizabella. So those were a little bit more of you didn't need to see the show, but the interviews now with, with other cast members and fans, it's, it's kind of hard if you've not seen at least some interaction, you have to have some knowledge because otherwise we're talking deep character analysis of a cat's name that you might not even know that we're talking about. So it is a little bit more challenging for this particular thing. But I know that I'm in a lane that is, uh, meant for a certain group of people and only a certain group of people.

[15:04] Mike Abrams: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's what, I mean, that's why I love about it. I love when you can talk in detail about it rather than having to be too, yeah, like inclusive to everyone and just be like really discuss. I mean, cause this, I, I'm just so fascinated about the Jellicle community. Like I want to know all their relationships and yeah, who's doing what with who and why they are like they are. That is my, my mission of this podcast is to figure that out and then slowly influence people who maybe have not thought about that who are in the show. Um, thinking like, Oh, I haven't thought about that relationship, but maybe we can play into that. Or maybe we could, we should play more into this one than that one. So, um, I, I do love it. And I think, you know, you're, you're doing, you're doing the Lord's work out there, uh, getting more people, uh, being knowledgeable about cats with your show.

[15:56] Linus Karp: Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's the goal. So I want to hear a little bit about, um, for you, like, let's talk a little bit about the movie because I, I'm always am a little fascinated when, and you're the second person I'm talking to recently that, um, that your first interaction with cats, like real true interaction besides memory is this 2019 movie, which is, you know, uh, was not well received for the most part. So, um, how, you know, like, how would you describe the movie? Like how, like, are you a fan of the movie? Did you just see it as a comedy vehicle? Like what was your real take on it when you first saw it?

[16:37] Linus Karp: Oh yeah. So I went to see it with my partner, my flatmate cause they wanted to go and see it. And this was kind of like in January, 2020. So yeah, it'd already been out for a little while, um, but I hadn't been too bothered about it. So I just went along cause they wanted to see it. And we sat down in the cinema and like from the beginning, like the first number, it was a bit like, I don't know what's going on, but I'm so into this. I feel like in a weird way, it just kind of felt like a, like a super long music video of that's just like really interesting visually, but a lot of it doesn't really make sense, but you're still like re well, I was really enjoying it. Um, and yeah, and I hadn't listened, really listened to the music before and I really loved the music.

And, and I mean, I'm, I'm, I think what makes Cats the film so special is that it's amazing and brilliant and awful and terrible at the same time. Like you have the beautiful music, you have amazing performers being incredible and like Judi Dench, Ian McKellen, Taylor Swift, like it's such a weird and incredible lineup and most of them do really good performances as well. Um, and you have that like visually, it looks nice. And then the very weird effects, the sometimes ridiculously terrible script, um, and it's sort of like forced plot into it. And I just feel like watching it, what I keep thinking all the time, every time I watch it, it's like, I just can't believe this was made. Like they spent, they had a hundred million dollar budget and they got all these stars and all this talent on and off camera involved.

And this is the end result. Um, and I just find that so fascinating. Like I have the best time watching it and it just makes me so happy. But I obviously see my love for it. It's both genuine and I also love it for the reasons that, I mean, that is just hilarious and weird and questionably made.

[18:42] Mike Abrams: Yeah. You, you nailed a lot of the things I think are so interesting about it, which is they got great stars, they got great dancers, they got great performers. They had a, a very successful 40, what at that point was probably 38 years, 39 years of a show that they had as a vehicle. But they made a lot of really questionable decisions. And I think they assumed that a hundred million dollar budget and these big names was going to turn it into a good movie. And instead they didn't actually make a good movie. They made good performances and good, like some good pieces of a movie, but they didn't make a movie they made. I think I like your description of a music video, like a very long music video.

Um, that is what it felt like, but with really weird editing, never felt finished. Um, and it almost, I feel like it almost hurt the stage production because the stage production is so brilliant and you know, unique experience and this forced plot with extra dialogue and a fake conflict and resolution that doesn't really exist. All was kind of added in to make it more Hollywood and it kind of flopped. And now everybody is distancing themselves from it pretty, pretty quickly.

[19:57] Linus Karp: Yeah, absolutely. Like it's definitely damaged cats, the musical so much. And I mean, which is such a shame because I mean, especially cause I personally, I just can't wait for it to be back in the West End or in, in, in the UK generally. Um, cause I really want to experience it live. Um, and yeah, I think like it's so tainted by, by the film. Um, cause I, yeah, they probably, I think the problem with the film is just that Tom Hooper had wasn't quest, like he could do whatever he wanted and he wasn't questioned and he probably have coming from the success of the films he had done, um, thought that he didn't really even need to know what he was doing. Um, I've spoken to some people who actually worked on the film, um, who were all like a lot of times they didn't really know what was going on or they weren't told that much.

Um, and like decisions kept changing last minute all the time. Um, and like Tom Hooper apparently doesn't really like planning. Now it sounds like I'm slagging off. I'm very, very glad that you made this film, but I, he didn't really like planning. So I like a lot of time he would just go with his intuition and having watched his commentary of the film as well, he does seem like a very humorless person. So for to have him write these like comedy, like the jokes in the film, basically that are so unfunny, which sometimes just makes it even funnier. Um, and it's just such a weird vibe because I feel like the film simultaneously tries to be like almost like an animated family film, but also like a really grownup drama.

Um, but it's, and they want to give it this like sense of realism like he did with limits with, with people singing live. But actually the difference is that limits is about war and like drama like that was cats. It's like, Oh, it's a cat singing about trains. It doesn't work that way. Basically they, they need to choose either. And there's probably a reason why, I mean, the success of the stage show just can't be translated onto the screen. Like it's been, they've been trying since the early nineties and they never made it work up until 2019, which obviously didn't work very well. Um, I mean, if you look at it critically or financially, um, so it's probably a reason why, why it took so long before it was made.

[22:22] Mike Abrams: Yeah. And I think, you know, you hit on a couple of things I liked there. One is, is it, I'm since 98 when the, the stage production just shot as a film, wasn't really a movie. It was just a pro shot of the stage production. Um, but I also think, you know, you, you highlighted the humor and darkness and not darkness, but the show kind of has some of that as well. It's like a lot of kids go to the show, which I don't agree with, but it's also a very dark premise. You know, it's a, um, uh, a little bit of a redemption story of a cat that has left before some bad, bad things have happened. There's a sexual abuse plot line. That's very well established in the show. There's an orgy in the show. Like there's a lot in the stage production.

That's kind of like glossed over. Um, that is very dark and heavy. So I do think like the movie kind of needed or tried to do the same thing, which is, which is interesting that it's like your, to your point, they tried to be this like dramatic piece, but also fun.

[23:20] Linus Karp: Which kind of feels a little bit like what the stage production does. But I want to ask you a question about this because I do think like, the 2019 movie flopping, I feel like also helped. Because I think if it was just like an average success or somewhat well done but not great, like I don't think a lot about Les Mis' movie much anymore. But I do think a lot of people still think about the disaster that was CATS. So I wonder if there's like, by not being either so incredible or so mediocre, by being so like polarizing, they actually might have extended its life. By making it so like, like people are going to talk about it for a long time. Because it feels very Rocky Horror Picture where there'll be an extended life of people seeing it because of how crazy it is.

[24:06] Mike Abrams: We'll be right back after a short break.

[24:11] Linus Karp: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's a very good point. Absolutely. Like, I don't think anyone would be brave enough to put on the stage production too soon after the film necessarily. Or like in, on like Broadway or the West End at least. Obviously there are touring productions in various places. But just because the film's probably put some damage now. But I mean, there are already like, these fan screenings of the film. Like Rocky Horror Picture and so on. Yeah, it is so, whatever you think of the film, it is so memorable. Like you'll never forget it. You know if you've seen CATS. So yeah, you're probably right. Like it will probably extend the life of CATS ultimately. So yeah, that's very nice.

[24:59] Linus Karp: And it's funny, like you were saying about the CATS being a kids show or family show. A lot of families actually go and see CATS. They bring their kids. School trips go and see CATS, despite it being so dark. Like, if the characters were not CATS, if they were human characters, it would never, ever, ever be seen by kids. But somehow just because they're playing CATS, wearing these very tight leotards, grinding on each other at times, it's acceptable for young kids to go and see it. Which is just very funny. And like, it's hard to point out why that's all of a sudden acceptable. There's like points where it's like if you're really young, it doesn't really matter. It's all going to go over your head and it's just CATS singing and dancing.

But there's like an age in the middle where it's a little bit confusing. And it's like you probably are starting to understand some of what's going on. That's the part where I'm like, hey, maybe leave that kid at home. And then it's once you get into the teenage years where you clearly get what's happening. From that point forward, it's okay. But it is, you know, and I saw it, I've only seen it twice on stage. And so it was very, like, I definitely didn't pick up on it the first time. But I kind of was like, oh, that was a lot. Like a couple of those dances were pretty aggressive for the child sitting in front of me to be watching.

[26:16] Mike Abrams: But it's been happening forever.

[26:27] Linus Karp: Yeah.

[26:28] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[26:32] Linus Karp: Yeah. That is so. Yeah, it's just so funny. And people were criticizing the film for being like too weird and sexual. But actually, the film is less weird and sexual compared to the stage show. Like they're thrusting in each other's faces and stuff. But somehow because it's on stage and because it's not done by, you know, big Hollywood stars in close ups, it doesn't maybe feel the same way.

[27:01] Mike Abrams: Yeah, it would definitely felt less sexual in the movie than in the stage productions. But I think, you know, you also have like, to your point, the way that they shot, like the close up of Jason Derulo was in the unitard was fairly sexual. And it was just him quick up versus like a lot of Tugger song is extremely sexual. But it's a wide angle, you know, him kind of running around the stage very different.

[27:27] Linus Karp: Yeah.

[27:28] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[27:30] Linus Karp: I'm speaking to someone actually was one of the dancers in the Rum Tum Tugger number. He said like on the first take when he sort of like he makes his entrance and jumps onto the table. He shouted pussy party. And that was the line they actually had. So that his entrance line, like when they were rehearsing was pussy party, jumping onto the table, starting the song. But that never was never made, made the film. Which is just, yeah, interesting.

[27:59] Mike Abrams: Love it. Absolutely love it.

[28:01] Linus Karp: OK, I want to go to our rapid fire. So I want to think about the stage production, which I know you haven't seen. So I was thinking about the movie, the 1998 movie, not the 2019 movie. So if you got to play any cat in the 1988 movie, who would you want to play?

[28:20] Linus Karp: I mean, the thing is, I'm an actor, but I can't sing or dance. So, I mean, doing this show is the closest I'll probably ever get to being in CATS. So I sort of made myself a cat. But if I could, I mean, Mr. Mistoffelees is the ultimate dream. Like I'll never, ever get to do that. But to be able to leap around like that and be like the queer icon, Mr. Mistoffelees, that yeah, that would be a dream.

[28:47] Mike Abrams: Totally. I always usually ask this question by suspending reality of what you're capable of doing, because I can't sing or dance or do any of the cats. But I have like, who would I want to if I was capable is a different question.

[28:58] Linus Karp: Of course, yes.

[29:02] Linus Karp: Yeah. I mean, my favorite is Mr. Mistoffelees. My least favorite. I mean, in the well, if we're looking at the stage version.

[29:17] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Is that the same for the movie?

[29:19] Linus Karp: I mean, maybe Stillbuster for Jones. I feel like there's not that much to his number. It's quite a boring song. It's just a bit of like a fat joke.

[29:26] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[29:28] Linus Karp: Yeah, that's probably my least favorite.

[29:30] Mike Abrams: Yeah, totally. What is your favorite song from the movie or from the show?

[29:34] Linus Karp: Sorry. I mean, with the movie, you also have James Corden playing him. So that just that doesn't help. I love Jellicle songs for Jellicle cats. That was actually my most listened to song on Spotify in 2020. I just think it's so much fun. And because it has like all the variants. I do think that one's really good. Macavity is such a banger as well. And Mistoffelees, of course. But I do Jellicle songs for Jellicle cats. Love it. Love it.

[30:05] Mike Abrams: Who do you think would be the best and the worst cat at doing a stand-up comedy set?

[30:12] Linus Karp: Oh.

[30:17] Linus Karp: Who's actually funny? I mean, if you're looking at the.

[30:21] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[30:22] Linus Karp: Yeah.

[30:23] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[30:24] Linus Karp: Yeah.

[30:25] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[30:26] Linus Karp: Yeah.

[30:27] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[30:28] Linus Karp: Yeah.

[30:29] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[30:30] Linus Karp: I mean, if you're looking at the.

[30:32] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[30:33] Linus Karp: What about. If you're looking at the musical rather than the film. Like, I think the character Jenny Anidot actually could be really funny on a mic.

[30:41] Mike Abrams: What about least favorite?

[30:43] Linus Karp: Or at least. Yeah. I think she actually, she could surprise you. Like, she'd be like. Yeah, I think she has a sense of humor. I actually think Gus in that I feel, what I feel with Gus is that he's actually, I mean, again, this is also maybe more of the film. I mean, I love Ian McKellen. I love his performance in it. But when it's, it has such a different flavor in the film when Gus is singing about himself as opposed to someone else singing about himself.

[31:09] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[31:10] Linus Karp: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like even in the film when Gus is singing about himself as opposed to someone else singing about him, because like singing about yourself, you just come across very self-obsessed and overconfident in your own abilities because there's actually nothing backing up that what he's saying is true. But when he has someone else singing it, so I just feel like he wouldn't necessarily have, he would lack the sense of, like, he wouldn't be able to make fun of himself. And I think as a standup, that's probably one of the key things.

[31:45] Mike Abrams: Yeah, that's a good answer. That's a very good answer.

[31:49] Linus Karp: I think, you know, you can tell me what you think about my answer because I did think a lot about this. I think the one that would be best would be Tugger because I don't think he would care if he bombed. Like, he would just go up there and keep delivering and delivering and delivering with confidence until he got it right.

[32:02] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[32:03] Linus Karp: And I think the least would be Munkus Trap or Skimball who are just so, like, regimented that they wouldn't be funny.

[32:10] Mike Abrams: Oh, that. Okay. Very good answer, actually. And I agree. And it would be wonderful. And, yeah, Munkus Trap and Skimball just wouldn't be fun.

[32:27] Linus Karp: Oh, yeah. No, I mean, they would be good. I mean, provided they can get to do it together, they would be really good. I think Bombalurina could deliver as well.

[32:39] Mike Abrams: Completely. I actually thought about that. I mean, Mistoffelees can just throw in some magic if he gets stuck. So I feel like that would be very memorable and good, if nothing else.

[32:49] Linus Karp: I want to get to my million dollar question because I'm interested to hear since your take is going to be more movie based. But I've argued at length that I don't think Grizabella is the right Jellicle choice. So I'm curious, who do you think should be the Jellicle choice? How are you making the decision as old dude around me? What is your take on this?

[33:12] Linus Karp: Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure with you because, well, I guess people seem to think obviously often that I made the Jellicle choice, but I don't think I agree with it. I don't know. It's hard. It depends on what you would say qualifies you to be that. Grizabella is the one who's been... She's had a tough time and missed it herself, but she deserves a second chance in that way. She has to have a better life, or her life at least could be greatly improved. Got a great long full life. He doesn't need saving in that. I mean, he's very old and ill now. That would be why he would deserve it. But I feel like Grizabella is still a stronger option than Gus. And a lot of the others are competing for it. I mean, Skimbleshanks has a great train.

What would he do if he's reborn? He doesn't need to be reborn yet. I mean, Rum Tum Tug will obviously not win. I guess Jenny Anidos would be another option. And she's still... She has a great time with her cockroaches and her mice. She doesn't... I actually do think Grizabella is probably the right decision.

[34:38] Mike Abrams: I like that you just walked through all the thoughts. It's like a show live here. We're just going through each one. Who do we know? But I do think you asked the question right up front, which is what I'm curious to hear your take on, which is what is the deciding factor? How does Aldo Deuteronomy make the choice? Since you only get one Judi Dench version.

[35:28] Linus Karp: One year, like a big ballad wins and the country will try and send a ballad. But actually that year, it's like a really sassy pop song that way, always varies. So I feel like Grizabella maybe wins this year, because last year, there was someone who won, like Gus, who won, for example, maybe there was like a cat who'd done amazing things all through that. And then that's why like, oh, this time, we're gonna give it to an outsider who's had more of a rough time. And yeah, so like, I do, I do, it might vary year to year. So, yeah, so like, if that's similar to you win one year, and maybe you should wait a year and then come back the next year and get a chance. That I mean, that's my most... And ultimately, maybe like, yes, sorry.

And, and maybe also, maybe also, I mean, all Deuteronomy is old, Grizabella is the love, she does this big emotional number. I mean, and especially in the film, I mean, in the film is such a weird thing. Because obviously, the cats are kidnapped, and some even come back when she makes the decision. So in the film, it's a bit like, well, Gus, the competitors are stuck on the barge on the Thames, they're not even here. It's Dawn, all due to her decision, who is she going to give it to? The only one there is like, Grizabella, or Mistoffelees, who's competing for it, he just shows off his magic skills, or Rantan Tugger, who's not really competing for it. Well, she's gonna give it to Grizabella, because she's kind of the only one there who kind of would get it. So like, if the others hadn't been kidnapped, then maybe it would be Gus, but he's not even there.

[37:14] Mike Abrams: I love that thought process, because I hadn't thought about it that way, which is your version of like, why is because Tom Hooper wrote in his own way to make his own decision by eliminating choices by putting him in the kidnap barge that they had versus so it's only Grizabella as the only option, which is his way of trying to make some sense into the decision himself, it seems like.

[37:37] Linus Karp: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So who knows, who knows, like maybe Jenny Anidot or Gus would actually step up if they hadn't been kidnapped. I do love that. I also love the Eurovision comparison, because it feels spot on. Actually, my original joke was that I thought it was X Factor. And so I was watching a singing competition, a different one, because I saw Leona Lewis as my first stage Grizabella, and it felt very X Factor. And that's like very Eurovision, where it is a different type of thing each year that wins. It is a lot of like competition. But because of that, it doesn't almost eliminate, like, I think it's kind of thought in the show that there's only a handful really competing for it. And I know that that's true, because there's been told to Tugger, like, you're not in the running, but you're going to go sing.

And that's not the case in Eurovision and the X Factor, where it's like, everybody's really in the running, like, it's a singing competition, age doesn't matter. And that it's all about just who's going to perform best, which is a different question than who's most worthy, or who's like, you know, the other kind of things, or who's available, because Macavity kidnapped the rest of them in the movie, you know, it's like a different answer to that question.

[38:49] Linus Karp: Yeah, but even in X Factor, though, people get their narratives. It's like, oh, it's this girl who is really young, and she doesn't like all her parents died. So it's really tragic. And oh, that's why we all there's this, all the person who's been trying so hard with entire life, but now the cat, maybe now this is their year or so on. Like, that does play a big part into it as well. I feel like those types of competition. So that probably plays in. I mean, the Jellicle is exclusively a singing competition. And, and I mean, as you've talked about as well, like, the fact that all Deuteronomy is definitely the related or the power to many of the competitors makes it even weirder.

[39:39] Mike Abrams: Totally. Yeah. I mean, it's a very interesting thing to think about from many angles, because there's not one way to analyze it, unless you're, you know, unless you're what, Andrew Webber, or, you know, or the, you know, the Jillian, Jillian Lynn and Christy Cartwright, like the ones that are like, really doing the actual decision making from years ago, the rest of us are just speculating based off of very little dialogue, and very little knowledge of what it is in this kind of crazy world. And that or Tom Hooper is crazy version. So yeah, yeah. And if all Deuteronomy, like gets to go to other Jellicle balls, does she travel around the country making the decisions that other Jellicle balls or is it just this one once a year?

Which, yeah, which is also really interesting. I have never thought about that. I've always thought it's a cult. And so this is her cult like this. And she's the leader of her tribe. But maybe there are other tribes doing the same sacrifices. Do they have the same like, are there parallel? Not like Joe, almost like Jets and Sharks. And what's that story? It's like, you got the Jellicles, you got some other rival cat gang that's doing the same thing.

[40:50] Linus Karp: Yeah, exactly. Or maybe there's like, I mean, like a church, I guess with like, I mean, different branches in every city. So like the London Jellicle ball, she's just come from the Birmingham Jellicle ball, maybe, or she's been to the Manchester Jellicle ball. I love that. That is an angle I've not thought about. I also love that we just went from cult to church, which is also well, I'd love to hear from you. Like, how can we watch like, how can people who are gonna listen to this, watch your upcoming show that's gonna be live stream? Or if they're live, how can they get tickets and go?

[41:27] Linus Karp: Oh, yes. So it is playing at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival from 15th to the 27th of August. So that's in Scotland, in the UK. If you're there, please come and watch it. Please come and say to have some Jellicle chaps. It is also available online through the entire run of the Fringe Festival, which is from the 3rd of August to the 27th of August. We may keep it up a little bit longer. So you can watch it online wherever you are in the world. The best way to get tickets is to go to, well, if you just find us on social media, we'll have all the links in our bio. It's at Awkward Prods. So Awkward Prods, short for Productions, Instagram. That is the production company I work under. And then my own one is at ARP, L-A-N-U-S, K-A-R-P. If you find any of those, I'll have the link in the bio there where you can get all the info and get tickets and watch it.

[42:35] Mike Abrams: We will link everything as well, since this should come out while this is running or right before it's running. So people can watch it live if they can get tickets and also watch the streaming if they're not in anywhere near you in the States or somewhere else. So this has been super fun. I really appreciate you being an amazing guest and excited for more people to get to see your hilarious show.

[42:59] Linus Karp: Thank you. Thank you, Mike. I just love talking about cats and it's so nice to do it with people as passionate.

[43:09] Mike Abrams: That is exactly right. It's rare when you get the people who also have devoted too much of their life and time to it, which is fun. Thank you. And question for you, if there ever is a Cats 2, who do you think would come and win?

[43:26] Linus Karp: Oh, such a good question. I think the first question I have to ask is what is the criteria decision from Old Deuteronomy? Is it the same as last year? Because if that's the case, then I'm wondering if there's another like Grizabella out in the world that was exiled that's coming back this year as well. And so it's a cat we've never been introduced to. I kind of like because that gives you a whole lot of creative writing opportunities for that. But if not, and you have to pick just from the list, then I think it's probably Gus or Stimble unless Old Deuteronomy is ready to make himself the choice and Monkish Trap is like itching to take over. So that's kind of how I look at it as the next one.

[44:12] Mike Abrams: I mean, Old Deuteronomy making themselves the choice, that would be quite something. Unfortunately, all the others are like, actually, it's me.

[44:21] Linus Karp: I think it's got to happen. I mean, I'd love to.

[44:24] Mike Abrams: He's got to be the choice eventually, because Monkish Trap has been groomed to be his replacement. And he seems ready. You know, like, that's why he's the narrator of the 2019 movie. Like at some point, I feel like he's just gonna step in and just kill his dad himself. So that way he can take over finally.

[44:42] Linus Karp: It feels like the royal family here with like, the Queen is just not giving up like Charles is getting ready and he's just never gonna become king. And he's been like ready for decades now. And like the Queen is just well into the 90s. Yeah, I mean, I also love the Grizabella. That could be another Grizabella out there. If we look at the film version, I think that could be Bombalurina. She's sort of like Macavity's sidekick in the film version. Maybe Grizabella until she was replaced with a young model. And now in the next one, in the sequel, it's weird to be crawling back and full of regret of all the horrible things you did and belt out a bad evangelical choice.

[45:24] Linus Karp: I think they're going to struggle to get Taylor Swift to be engaged in Cats 2 after the debacle of Cats 1. I'll take the part. I look similar enough.

[45:38] Mike Abrams: You're in. I know you wear a cat suit for the show, so you're ready to go.

[45:48] Linus Karp: Oh, yeah, and it is actually the Bombalurina suit.

[45:52] Mike Abrams: Amazing. Well, this has been an absolute blast. I appreciate you coming on. And I hope so many people that listen to this get to come see your show because I found it absolutely hysterical. And this has been so much fun. Thank you so much, Mike.

[46:06] Mike Abrams: And thanks, everyone else, to listen to this episode of The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of the cat's atrophy. To follow along, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or anywhere else to listen to the podcast. Follow us on Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok at thewrongcatdied or check out our website, thewrongcatdied.com. Bye.