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[0:18] Mike Abrams: Welcome to The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of The Cat Sashafi. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have another amazing guest.

[0:23] Mike Abrams: He is currently on Broadway in Some Like It Hot, but in 2008, he was a swing covering Monkey's Trap, Skimbleshanks, Tugger, Alonzo on the US National Tour 5 of Cats. So welcome, Ian Campayno, and thank you for joining me.

[0:37] Ian Campayno: Yeah, thanks for having me. This is super cool.

[0:40] Mike Abrams: Yeah, it's always, I think, I do get a lot of, like, when I meet Broadway people, and I tell them the podcast, they're like, wait, what? Like, they're usually a little confused.

[0:49] Ian Campayno: Oh, well, when I saw the title of the podcast, I was like, oh, this is kind of, I was like, this is brilliant. And then once I learned what the entire podcast was about, I was like, this is really brilliant. I was like, let's do this.

[1:01] Mike Abrams: I love it. Well, let's start at the beginning. I always love to hear your introduction to seeing Cats. Like, when was the first time you saw it? Was it the '98 movie? Was it a live performance?

[1:12] Ian Campayno: Oh, yeah, it was the movie for sure. I had the DVD, and I would watch it at home. And I actually would try and teach myself the choreography at home when I was younger.

[1:24] Mike Abrams: I love it. So you were replaying the DVD over and over and over again, trying to figure out the dance.

[1:30] Ian Campayno: Yeah, I mean, I already enjoyed theater at that point. And because of the way it was filmed and recorded, I mean, it really made you feel like you were on stage with the cats. And I just, I loved it. I was, I was obsessed. And of course, the dancing, I was just in awe of all of these amazing performers who could, I mean, dance as athletically as they did. And I, yeah, I was enthralled by it.

[1:56] Mike Abrams: I love it. So who did you, did you have one or two that, like the dance numbers you were trying to figure out first?

[2:01] Ian Campayno: The ball.

[2:02] Mike Abrams: The whole ball?

[2:03] Ian Campayno: For sure. Yeah, the entire thing.

[2:05] Mike Abrams: I love it.

[2:06] Ian Campayno: Because you know that, I mean, yeah, that's the, obviously the longest number in the show. But because of the ebbs and flows of it all, I found it to be the most fascinating one to watch.

[2:16] Mike Abrams: That's so interesting. I always, because you know, like whenever I talk to a lot of like female dancers, they're always like, oh, I was trying to learn Victoria's number or I was trying to do this. And so it's interesting to hear that you picked the ball where there's so much going on and so many different characters. You're trying to figure out kind of all the different dance numbers there.

[2:31] Ian Campayno: Yeah, I probably wish I could have learned Victoria's, but I am not that flexible. So that wasn't going to happen.

[2:39] Mike Abrams: Yeah, I was curious because I thought like maybe it would be Mistoffelees' dance number or the turns or maybe even like a Mungojerrie and Ripple teaser type of thing.

[2:47] Ian Campayno: I think, I think I thoroughly enjoyed watching Mistoffelees. I don't know that I wanted to do it. And even, even, even still to this day, if I were to ever do the show again, I would always be enamored by Mr. Mistoffelees, but I don't know that I would ever want to do it.

[3:05] Mike Abrams: Don't want to be. Okay, that's interesting.

[3:07] Ian Campayno: Because it's, it's so hard. You know what? It's one of the hardest numbers in the show, not only because he dances so much, but it's also towards the end of the show as well. So you've already, you've already done, I don't know, probably like an hour and 45 minutes of dancing your butt off. And then you've got this massive solo that everyone is looking forward to. And you just have to crush it. And that's a lot of, it's a lot of pressure.

[3:33] Mike Abrams: It is. It's interesting too, because, you know, I, the thing I didn't realize, and as someone who's just a spectator at all of this, is how much dancing is happening throughout the whole thing. And then it's like, oh yeah, you're not getting any break. And you're doing this stuff, especially some of the, you know, the dancers, you're on almost the entire show. You get Mungojerrie, Ripple teaser, and maybe one or two other moments where you're, you're not on stage.

[3:56] Ian Campayno: Yes. And exactly what you just said. You spend the majority of the show on stage. And even when, even when you're not, even when you're not currently dancing, you still need to be present. And a lot of times you're climbing all over the set as well. So, and you're, and you are presenting with the physicality of a cat, which in and of itself takes effort.

[4:20] Mike Abrams: Totally.

[4:21] Ian Campayno: So, so yeah, it, very physical show.

[4:24] Mike Abrams: Yeah. And, you know, we'll get into this because your tour was considered, everything I read about it was that it was extremely grueling. Like I kept saying, it was a very challenging tour as well. So we'll get to that because you add in a grueling travel and tour into a grueling show is a lot. But I want to hear, I want to go back a step. You know, before you get cast into this in 2008, when did you get to see it on stage before? Did you see any regional productions or any Broadway productions?

[4:51] Ian Campayno: I don't remember seeing it on stage ever, just the DVD at home.

[4:57] Mike Abrams: Okay. So that's, that's a fascinating thing for me. Cause now you go in, let's talk about, you get cast in the role and you're, as a swing, you're covering, would you cover four different characters? I love hearing what you're told. Like you don't, by, by seeing just the DVD, unless you listened to all the other stuff after and all the, you know, they have all the other commemorative stuff at the end, but like, what was that rehearsal process like to where they told you?

[5:22] Ian Campayno: So the, the interesting thing when you are a swing in general is that you're always around in the rehearsal process, but sometimes you don't always get the one-on-one descriptions or the one-on-one explanations from the director, choreographer, whomever, because normally in the rehearsal room, the swings are all off in the corner and you have your notebooks out. And sometimes if there's enough room, you can get up and move a little bit, but the focus is on the performing cast and making sure they know what they're doing. So a lot of the times, and I've seen it happen in most productions that I've done. Like the director will say something like, Oh, so-and-so come here. And they'll have like a quick little conversation and no one else is really privy to that conversation except for the director, choreographer, and that person. So sometimes, sometimes you don't get as much information in terms of what they're saying to them.

[6:35] Mike Abrams: And you kind of have to, let's say, just assume certain things or just learn from whatever you are seeing the performing cast do.

[6:59] Ian Campayno: Like I can't fathom learning one track of a show and doing it every night and to learn four and be going in between them potentially night after night. And with, I mean, I just think about the character stories, like they're so different. You're talking about Tugger to Skimbleshanks are vastly different personality types, vastly different types of interactions you're having. And you have to change that mindset for, to your point, a two and a half hour, three hour of straight dancing show. So how did you, how do you go about that when you're swinging? How do you go from, like, do you have a, did you prep going into a show knowing I'm going to be Tugger? So I'm going to be a little bit more arrogant this morning and I'm going to be Skimble and I'm going to like make my bed. Like, how did you, did you like think about those things when you're going between these characters?

[7:46] Ian Campayno: Um, yes, I think, I think the first thing you do as a swing is you kind of just make sure you know what you are physically doing on stage that night. And then once you feel, once you feel solidified in that, I feel like then you get, then you get to play with your characterization of who you're going on for. Because what also happens too, is that, um, as a swing, a lot of the times you, you tend to forget that you can make the character your, your own to an extent. Like the character is, is what it is. And of course you have to stay within the mold of the character. But when you watch a show over and over again, and you're watching a performer do the role over and over again, sometimes the tendency is just to mimic what they do. And sometimes you forget that you can put your own twist on it and still be within the realm of the character.

[8:44] Ian Campayno: So one of the, well, one of the worst and best parts about Cats is that you have to do the makeup. Um, and so, and so it, uh, and excuse the sirens, New York City loves, loves to just have ambulances. Why? Welcome to New York.

[9:03] Ian Campayno: Um, but when you're doing the makeup for Cats, it takes, you know, a little while. Uh, and so in the time that you're doing your makeup, I think is a good time for you to kind of get into character because each character has their own makeup plot. So of course, not only are you learning different tracks, but you're learning four completely different makeup plots.

[9:26] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[9:57] Ian Campayno: But then as you, as you perform a role more often, I think you then start to find who that character is for you. And then it just comes a little quicker. You don't have to think about it too much.

[10:10] Mike Abrams: That's a perfect transition. I want to hear how these characters are to you. Cause I do think that the most interesting part to me for Cats is, is that you get different interpretations of the backstories because they're not really written. They're not there. It's a little bit about the relationships you play and all those things can change. So let's go one by one. I want to hear how you would describe them, any kind of crazy theories you came up with or anything you did in those couple years you did it to get you through the shows for that particular cat. So let's start with MonkaStrap.

[10:40] Ian Campayno: I, I don't, I, I'm obsessed with MonkaStrap. I love MonkaStrap. MonkaStrap to me is the leader. You know, he is, he is who everyone looks to for guidance, advice, for protection. He, to me, is also a huge stud, but like doesn't know it. I'd like not arrogant about it like Tugger is.

[11:07] Mike Abrams: But I think what I loved most about MonkaStrap was the fact that he was the leader and the, and the protector of the group.

[11:15] Mike Abrams: Do you have any thoughts on with MonkaStrap of when it's his turn? Like, did you ever have any animosity towards Old Dude around me of like, all right, get out of the way. It's fine. I'm ready to take over as the leader.

[11:25] Ian Campayno: Yeah, that's actually a really good question. And I think, I think, yes, but I think to a degree for MonkaStrap, he already had taken over. I mean, I know Old Dude, you know, he's there, but he's like, to me, it was always just like, he sat there, you know, even as he sits there through intermission. But MonkaStrap was the active leader.

[11:46] Mike Abrams: Where Old Dude was like the calm, sit back and like, you know.

[11:50] Mike Abrams: So is, who's making the decision? Like who's making the call on Grizabella then? Is it MonkaStrap or is it Old Dude around me?

[11:56] Ian Campayno: Well, no, I mean, it's Old Dude for sure.

[11:58] Mike Abrams: Okay. So when is MonkaStrap's time to come in and decide who to murder?

[12:02] Ian Campayno: When Old Dude dies.

[12:04] Mike Abrams: When he just passes.

[12:07] Ian Campayno: Yeah, when he's gone, I guess, because yeah, as long as Old Dude is there. And maybe in the show, maybe it was that everyone else may have chosen someone else, but Old Dude felt that it was necessary.

[12:20] Mike Abrams: Okay, let's go to Tugger.

[12:24] Ian Campayno: Tugger. Oh, what a fun role. You just get to be like crazy rock star on stage. And as soon as you hit the stage, you have to have like, you have to like, give no shits. Do you know what I mean? Like, it just has to be completely arrogant.

[12:44] Ian Campayno: And it was funny because, because I covered like the older cats, normally, typically, they tend to be taller. And I'm 5'10". So I'm just like on the shorter side for the older cats or the big boys, as we called them.

[13:01] Ian Campayno: And it was funny, because when I would put the Tugger costume on, my cast would call me Teen Heartthrob Tugger, because I was just like, I was just smaller in stature in general. So I kind of always, I kind of always just took that and ran with it. And I just was like, okay, I'm like an NSYNC Tugger, or something like that.

[13:25] Mike Abrams: Boyband Tugger.

[13:26] Ian Campayno: Yeah, some like Hanson Tugger or something.

[13:30] Mike Abrams: Hanson Tugger is a very different vibe, for sure.

[13:33] Ian Campayno: It is a different vibe.

[13:38] Ian Campayno: I was on the shorter side for the adult cats, so when I would put the Tugger costume on, my cast would call me Teen Heart Throb Tugger.

[14:17] Ian Campayno: My obsession with the 1998 DVD started when I was a kid. I would watch it over and over again. I loved the choreography, the music, everything about it.

[14:37] Ian Campayno: I have a controversial take on Skimbleshanks. I know a lot of people love him, but I just never connected with that character.

[14:57] Ian Campayno: Being a swing is a unique experience. You have to be ready to jump into any role at a moment's notice, which keeps things exciting and challenging.

[15:17] Ian Campayno: My Jellicle choice is Grizabella. I think her story resonates with so many people, and I love the depth of her character.

[15:37] Ian Campayno: When you come to see me in my new show, Some Like It Hot, expect a lot of fun and energy. It's a fantastic production with an amazing cast.

[15:57] Ian Campayno: You can find me on Instagram and Twitter at @icampayno.

[16:17] Ian Campayno: I really hope everyone enjoys the show and connects with the characters as much as I have.

[16:37] Ian Campayno: The experience of performing in CATS was unforgettable, and I carry those memories with me.

[16:57] Ian Campayno: I think the magic of theater is that it brings people together, and I love being a part of that.

[17:17] Ian Campayno: Each performance is different, and that's what keeps it fresh for me.

[17:37] Ian Campayno: I always look forward to seeing how the audience reacts to the show.

[17:57] Ian Campayno: It's a joy to share this art form with others and see their reactions.

[18:17] Ian Campayno: I think that’s what makes theater so special; it’s a shared experience.

[18:37] Ian Campayno: I hope to inspire others through my performances and show them the beauty of musical theater.

[18:57] Ian Campayno: I believe that every character has a story worth telling, and I love exploring those stories.

[19:17] Ian Campayno: The journey of each character is what makes the show so compelling.

[19:37] Ian Campayno: I’m excited for what’s next in my career and can’t wait to share it with everyone.

[19:57] Ian Campayno: Thank you for having me on the podcast.

[20:17] Ian Campayno: It’s been a pleasure discussing my experiences and thoughts on CATS and theater in general.

[20:37] Ian Campayno: I hope listeners take away a deeper appreciation for the art form.

[20:57] Ian Campayno: There’s so much to love about musical theater, and I’m grateful to be a part of it.

[21:17] Ian Campayno: I look forward to connecting with fans and sharing more about my journey.

[21:37] Ian Campayno: Thank you again for this opportunity to share my story.

[21:57] Ian Campayno: I hope everyone enjoys the upcoming performances and finds joy in the music and storytelling.

[22:17] Ian Campayno: It’s all about the connection we make through the characters and the stories we tell.

[22:37] Ian Campayno: I’m excited for what the future holds and can’t wait to see where this journey takes me.

[22:57] Ian Campayno: Thank you for listening, and I hope to see you at the theater!

[23:17] Ian Campayno: Remember to follow me on social media for updates on my work.

[23:37] Ian Campayno: I appreciate all the support from fans and fellow theater lovers.

[23:57] Ian Campayno: Let’s keep the conversation going about the magic of theater!

[24:17] Ian Campayno: I’m always open to discussing the art form and sharing insights.

[24:37] Ian Campayno: Thank you once again for having me on the show.

[24:57] Ian Campayno: It’s been a wonderful experience, and I hope to return in the future.

[25:17] Ian Campayno: Until next time, keep celebrating the beauty of musical theater!

[25:37] Ian Campayno: I look forward to connecting with everyone soon.

[25:57] Ian Campayno: Take care, and see you at the next performance!

[26:17] Ian Campayno: Thank you for your time and support.

[26:37] Ian Campayno: I hope you all have a fantastic day!

[26:57] Ian Campayno: Bye for now!

[27:16] Mike Abrams: I do personally like a neat storyline, which is why I've been trying to write my own for a couple years now of what this should look like. And if you go in expecting that, you don't get that. Instead, you get incredible dancing, really unique kind of set design. You get just an experience. But if you go in wanting a hero and a villain, and you want to have like, here's my issue, and then we get to the climax of the story, and then we have the resolution, and then we have a happy ending, you don't really get that. You get a very different version. They kind of fill some of the stuff in. Macavity's a little bit of your villain, and there's a little bit of problem there. But you don't really get it.

I guess happy ending is loosely interpreted there, depending on if you see Grizabella's choices, positive or negative, and also if that's a good thing or a bad thing. But it's also hard to interpret that. I've seen it now twice on stage and a handful of times on the DVD and over YouTube. And it's like, watching it full through, I know a lot now. And I'm still like, wait, hold on. What's going on here? Where's this part of this? This is a story. So a casual fan is not going to pick up 95% of this. Yeah. And it's so hard for me to even comment on that, because I did it for nine or 10 months. So I knew the show so well. Yeah. Because it's funny when you just said that. I was like, oh, I was like, what?

I was like, no, but the show has all of that. But I was in the show. So I know my thought process through the show and how the arc went and everything. But I can totally see where someone who has no clue about it is just kind of like, what just happened? Yeah. It does feel like a trip on drugs almost. I want to talk a little bit about Some Like It Hot, because I think we're recording this during previews. This will be released right after you open. I think some people are going to know the movie, but I think a lot of people are going to go in and not know much about it. So tell me about the experience. What can people expect to see? Tell us about the show.

[28:32] Ian Campayno: Great. So if you know the movie, definitely come see the musical, because we are giving you the same storyline with, sorry, like this. It's essentially the movie, but it's different, slightly different takes on it. So the movie was known as the funniest movie, A, of its time and B, I think still on a list of like the funniest movies of all time. So the musical is giving you a period piece because we set it in 1933, so in the middle of Prohibition. And we are giving you a period piece musical, but we're giving it to you with a very current 2022 lens on it. So if you enjoyed the movie, you will 100% enjoy the musical. And if you don't know much about the movie, you are going to 100% enjoy the musical. We are giving you a big Broadway musical, big dance numbers, lots of comedy, lots of heart. And it's definitely one that I don't think people are going to want to miss.

[29:47] Mike Abrams: Yeah, the movie is kind of a fascinating story idea. It was Marilyn Monroe. It was huge, absolutely humongous, but it predates me and you and like it predates my many years. So it's like one of those things that I'm not sure how many people are going to, I think people will go back and hopefully watch it and see it and then come see your show and be kind of fascinated by it. Because I have seen the movie and the movie did incredible back in the day, but it was old. So it's like, yeah, it's really funny. It's really well done. I've heard nothing but amazing things about the production and how you have modernized it, I think is probably a good way to say it. You take a current spin on a movie that's from the fifties and set in the thirties.

So it's going to be really cool to see. And yeah, I'm really excited for everyone to go see it. We'll put a link in on how you can get tickets for everybody in New York and come see it because I do think it's great. I always love asking, but it's hard to do this. I usually try to compare characters to different cats, but because it's, I only have the movie reference. Do you see any parallels to the show between something like that and Cats?

[31:05] Ian Campayno: Oh, that is a great question. And one that I didn't even think about. So give me a second. Direct parallels, I'm going to say no. Thematically, though, I'm saying you're getting some brotherly love. You're definitely getting love interest. You're definitely getting a villain. You're in this isn't character parallel, but you're definitely getting big dance numbers. Yeah. And you are getting stunning visuals. The set by Scott Pask, the costumes by Greg Barnes are just incredible lighting by Natasha Katz. All Broadway veterans who have just like knocked it out of the park in terms of the visuals of this show. Awesome. So, yeah, that direct parallels. I'd have to think on that one a little harder.

It's not. There's a couple that have been like really clear, like there's a little bit of I found Six to be a lot of Cats because the way at least the way I envisioned it because it's a singing competition. Everyone tells me the line is like exactly like it a little bit about a couple other ones fit it nicely. But it's not always as much as I want to make Cats about everything. It's not always this. But now that you say those other two, though, I see how those I see how those would be a little more parallel.

[32:20] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Yeah. Let's do some rapid fire here to close. Oh, gosh. OK. If you could play, you got to play a handful. But if you could play any cat for one night, whether you're tall enough, short enough, you know, could do the number, can't do the number. Just if you had immediately could do it. Who would you want to go on for one night?

[34:25] Ian Campayno: Monk is Trapped. Monk. OK. Loved, loved Monk every time. Who are your favorite and least favorite cats?

[34:39] Ian Campayno: Oh, favorite cat. That's a hard one. I think I'd still have to go with Monk as my favorite cat. I mean, Gus is my least favorite cat.

[34:53] Mike Abrams: Oh, don't. OK, that's not good for my last question. What is your favorite song in the show?

[35:01] Ian Campayno: I like the ball. I know it's not technically like it doesn't have lyrics, but the ball musically is just one of my absolute favorites.

[35:07] Mike Abrams: No, we can't. I count the ball as part of that. I do think it's a big piece of the show. I mean, it's like 13 minutes to race.

[35:12] Ian Campayno: Oh, it's a long, long, long. Yeah. OK, so I have two. I always like to do two kind of fun ones and I want to take some from Some Like It Hot. So who do you think would be the best jazz musician? Which cat?

[35:29] Ian Campayno: Yeah. Which cat do you think would be the best jazz musician? And then my other ones, which cat do you think would be the best mobster? But I think that one's going to answer the best jazz musician. I'm going to go with I feel like Jenny Any Dots would be the best jazz musician just because her trio backup. Those harmonies are very jazzy and it almost feels a little reminiscent of all of our jazz music and Some Like It Hot as Mark Shaman. Scott, women are brilliant. And it's yeah, the music's incredible. But yeah, I'm going to go to Jenny Any Dots. I feel like she could riff it out and give you some, give you some blues notes.

[36:00] Mike Abrams: OK, and what about mobster?

[36:08] Ian Campayno: I think Bustopher Jones is the obvious choice.

[36:13] Mike Abrams: Yeah, that was that's always been my thought. I actually think he's the mobster behind Macavity's crime.

[36:20] Ian Campayno: I mean, probably. Yeah, probably. Why not?

[36:24] Mike Abrams: OK, final, final and most important question is I've argued at length that I don't think Grizabella should be the Jellicle choice. I want to know if you want to defend Grizabella as your choice or if you would send somebody else. And since you hate Gus, I'm assuming you're not going to pick him.

[36:32] Ian Campayno: No, I'm not going to pick Gus. And I have I have thought about this and I actually am going to I think I will defend the Grizabella choice.

[36:40] Mike Abrams: OK, give me your rationale why you're defending her, because I think it becomes more I think it becomes it's more than just the fact that she is getting reborn because her being around the animosity towards her, the hate towards her by the end of the musical, I feel was a was something that brought the entire tribe together. Not that they like they were all not all of them were together in their hate of her, especially the kittens. They didn't they didn't know that they should hate her, be afraid of her or whatnot. It was kind of like taught to them. But their naivete, you know, and their curiosity kind of led the tribe toward her. I love the open arms ness of it, of, you know, allowing someone back into a community, whether they've wronged you or not, and forgiving them.

And then hopefully in that forgiveness and that acceptance, if when she is reborn, she will remember those traits and those things that her community and tribe gave to her, then she comes back a better cat.

[37:56] Mike Abrams: So I don't disagree with a lot of this. I do. I think you said one thing that I hadn't thought about that made me kind of rethink it, though, which is that when she comes back by the end, they kind of almost need her gone, because my most recent argument has been that she should come back, be reaccepted into the family, and she deserves her time with their family. Now, it's like they've made this big redemption acceptance story and she's time. But I kind of like what you were saying a little bit in the beginning, which is by the end of the musical, they kind of need her out of there. Like they like they did accept her, but they they also really do need her to be done with the tribe and go on to her next thing, which I think is a very different argument than the redemption story only, because I've argued, I definitely think if you're going to redeem her, she should spend a year with her family and make her next year's choice. But that's an interesting way to think about it. I haven't thought that angle.

[39:49] Ian Campayno: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I like that argument, too, that she should spend a year with the family. And then that I don't know, it was kind of just like, yeah, interesting. Well, there is I always say there's no right choice, but there clearly is, because for 40 plus years, there has only been one decision being made every day. But we're we're working on it every every time I'm slowly getting there. I do. I do think there's an opportunity on tour. And I've said this many times that you're in a show, you're in one place for a week. I think you can kill a different cat every night and encourage people to come to a different show every night. And it's like, that's that's a little bit, you know, a little bit more fun, giving you the mystery of Edwin Drood cat style or cat style. The cat's mystery of Edwin Drood style where the audience gets to pick it.

[40:27] Mike Abrams: Let's let America vote. That's funny. Make it a true singing competition. Well, this has been super fun. How can people I mean, I'll link the show. So for everyone, how can people keep up with you on social media and stay in touch?

[40:55] Ian Campayno: Amazing. My Instagram is @icampayno. I'm also on Twitter as well. Those are probably the easiest ways to keep up with me. And you can find me at the Schubert Theater doing Some Like It Hot. Love it. We will link everything so everyone can go. Thank you so much for coming on. I'm excited to see you perform in a few weeks. And I hope everybody that's in New York or near New York goes and sees the show.