This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:18] Mike Abrams: Welcome to The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of Cats at Trophy. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we are changing things up a little bit. This is a two-part podcast this time, and it's a little bit different than what we've done in the past. Part 1 was with my amazing guests here, which we'll get to. It was on their show, and now we're going to do Part 2 on The Wrong Cat Died. And this is a little bit of a celebration, because I know I have avoided, for the most part, the disaster of a 2019 CATS movie. But it is the three-year anniversary. It has just come up. It has now been three years since that movie came out. And I was put in touch with these amazing people, and their podcast is phenomenal.

And so they are in entertainment, musicals, movies, everything in between, and they're the hosts of the incredible Friday Night Movie Podcast. So welcome, Shai, Lily, and Becky, a trio of brothers and sisters. And thank you for joining me and for Part 2 of this amazing conversation.

[1:14] Shai Korman: It is awesome to be here.

[1:16] Lily Korman: Thank you.

[1:17] Becky Korman: Lovely to be here. Thank you.

[1:20] Mike Abrams: Yeah, I'm so excited. It was super fun to already record Part 1 of this, where we talked about a lot of things I don't get to talk about as much on this show, but White Lotus and things I'm watching on TV and everything else and hear from all of you. But we're going to go now a little—we did some CATS in Part 1, but now we're going to go deep into CATS. So the first thing we've got to start with is—I just want to say, Lily, are you aware we have not gone deep into CATS yet?

[1:44] Lily Korman: Yeah, we haven't gone deep yet. We're going real deep into this here.

[1:48] Shai Korman: I am on this journey. That's what I will say. I'm on this journey. I'm ready.

[1:55] Mike Abrams: The preface, if you haven't heard the first part, is Shai and I were put in touch through a mutual friend, and Shai is a big CATS fan. And from what I can tell, Lily and Becky, you are not as much of the big fans. You are fans, but not nearly at the level of Shai.

[2:14] Becky Korman: Nobody can fan the way that Shai fans.

[2:20] Lily Korman: They also like making fun of me more than they like CATS and most other things.

[2:26] Shai Korman: But the only way we can properly make fun of him is to know a lot about CATS, so we can burn him.

[2:34] Becky Korman: But we do unabashedly love the production.

[2:39] Lily Korman: I mean, yeah. We saw it when we were little kids. We've all seen it many times. Though there's always going to be an affection for CATS in my heart.

[2:48] Mike Abrams: So let's talk about that first time. I want to hear from each of you the first time you saw the show. How old, when, where, what's that experience?

[2:55] Shai Korman: We were together, right? The three of us.

[2:57] Lily Korman: We were all together. I was six.

[2:59] Becky Korman: Summer of 91.

[3:01] Shai Korman: We'd been six, eight, and...

[3:04] Lily Korman: Eleven.

[3:05] Becky Korman: Eleven.

[3:06] Mike Abrams: Winter Garden Theater.

[3:08] Shai Korman: In New York on Broadway.

[3:10] Becky Korman: And I mean, I remember what I wore. It was really pretty. But the most exciting part of that show was when the cats came into the aisles.

[3:22] Lily Korman: Down the aisles.

[3:23] Shai Korman: Down the aisles, and they were coming back and forth. And I guess we had a close enough seat where one of them came up to me and was being a cat with me. And I was petting her, and it was wild. I mean, I was so fully immersed, and I fully believed that these were real, dancing, human-sized cats. So I totally bought into it.

[3:43] Becky Korman: Definitely.

[3:44] Lily Korman: Yeah, it was magical from before it started.

[3:47] Shai Korman: And I for sure also thought they were real. And other than memory, I hadn't heard a single song. And I remember, first of all, I remember how big it felt. Every time I saw it after that one time at the Winter Garden Theater, I always ask myself, am I older, or are they just doing it on a smaller stage? Because it just felt enormous. Like all the garbage right in the set.

[4:07] Becky Korman: The shoe.

[4:08] Shai Korman: Your shoes. And we saw the original version with the Growl Tigers' Last Stand, where the whole stage converts into a boat midway through. And so it felt so big. And the other thing was, as a music lover, I know I love a song when I hear it, and the show ends, and I want to hear it again immediately. And other than memory, and maybe once I'd heard Mr. Mistoffelees, I hadn't heard any of the other songs. And I have to this day always loved the opener, the prologue, the Jellicle Songs or Jellicle Cats, because when they do those windmills the first time, I mean, I guess I might have rewritten history. I'm assuming that choreography wasn't the one I saw when I was 11, but when they do those moves for the first time, and they storm up to the front of the stage after the quiet part in the middle, after the operatic part in the middle, it was so exhilarating. It felt like anything I'd ever seen, and I remember the bigness of it all.

[5:08] Mike Abrams: So you saw original Broadway in 91. So it's been on for four or five years at that point, and you are all under the age of 11.

[5:21] Shai Korman: I was 11.

[5:22] Becky Korman: 11 and under.

[5:23] Mike Abrams: Okay, so all of the stuff went over your head.

[5:29] Lily Korman: Yeah, like the sexual stuff.

[5:32] Shai Korman: All those stuff and the entire plot. I think that the very vague sort of general idea of the plot was somewhat understood. It was dancing cats, and one of them got a prize at the end. And I could tell Demeter in Bomb Ballerina had some history with Macavity, but to the extent to which my 11-year-old mind could imagine what that meant. And no one was prepping us for this show. It's not like my parents, our parents, give back story and explain what we were seeing. I mean, maybe it could have been that mom gave us the original poems or something, which are not very well connected to what you see.

[6:16] Becky Korman: They didn't even tell us T.S. Eliot was an anti-Semite.

[6:19] Shai Korman: We had the book of the poems at home, but I don't remember anybody connecting it.

[6:27] Lily Korman: Yeah, and Grizabella is not in that book.

[6:30] Shai Korman: Right.

[6:31] Mike Abrams: That's another piece to that. Okay, so I love this. You're going as a family. You're going in with the wholesome version. Like, kids are going to go see it. It's going to be singing and dancing and cats, and it's fun. And lots of kids saw it back then.

[6:44] Becky Korman: Oh, yeah. I mean, lots of kids still see it.

[6:47] Lily Korman: And I feel like, you know, Mr. Mistoffelees, or an eight-year-old, was so – and still is.

[6:56] Shai Korman: That's my favorite song.

[6:57] Lily Korman: That's my favorite scene.

[6:59] Becky Korman: Of course. Like, hands down. It was so magical.

[7:04] Shai Korman: The whole thing was so –

[7:05] Lily Korman: Magical Mr. Mistoffelees.

[7:07] Shai Korman: I mean, the outfit, everything.

[7:09] Becky Korman: Everything he's wearing, so sparkly. That whole thing was unbelievable.

[7:14] Mike Abrams: I love hearing, too, that you weren't scared during – the green eyes is when they come out. That's what it's called, because their eyes are flashing green through that whole section. That you weren't scared, because I know that that is –

[7:23] Shai Korman: No.

[7:24] Mike Abrams: As an adult, it terrified me, because I was not ready for it.

[7:27] Lily Korman: I thought it was the best part.

[7:29] Shai Korman: Aren't they just saying? Holding flashlights?

[7:31] Becky Korman: No, they have – so it's basically like a mask, essentially, or at least it depends on how they did it. And their eyes flash green as they're going through, and they're just kind of going around. The idea behind it, it seems, is like the whole point of Cats is that you're getting allowed to see their experience. You're getting brought to witness this thing, and they almost want to ignore you. They don't care that you're there. They just know that you're going to be able to see their ritual this year. So I think green eyes is the whole point of like, here, we're going to be kind of coming with you, and then we're going to go do our thing, and you can watch.

[8:05] Mike Abrams: So it's the start of the show that way.

[8:07] Lily Korman: Oh, that's cool.

[8:11] Shai Korman: I thought it was a fun gimmick to let the little kids pet the human cats.

[8:15] Becky Korman: It's probably part of it. My wife's sister had an allergy. She's allergic to cats, but she got so anxious during that part when she was a kid and she saw it, she had a full-on allergy attack and had to be removed from the show and didn't get to see the whole show.

[8:34] Mike Abrams: I think it's psychosomatic because there are no actual cats in a theater. But I'm just validating Mike's point. I know of people who have gotten terrified at that point.

[8:41] Shai Korman: Yeah, well, I mean, we had someone in 2016 got punched by a small child, basically, because a lot of times they jump out in your face. Sometimes they are basically going out there to scare people, not like grossly intentionally, but if you don't know what's coming, and a lot of people don't, then they come from around the corner. They come from out, and then all of a sudden, because it's dark, this is when the lights go down, and they jump up, and some people's natural instinct is to swing.

[9:12] Becky Korman: You know, I think Becky described it perfectly. When we saw it, it just seemed very – I don't know if you guys have seen The Lion King, but at the beginning of The Lion King –

[9:22] Shai Korman: Those giraffes aren't jumping out to scare you.

[9:25] Becky Korman: They come through the aisles and stuff. I don't know now with COVID, but when you're in the theater, right, they're –

[9:31] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[9:32] Becky Korman: So you're kind of being immersed in this. I do think around the aisle is different than like they get right up in people's face.

[9:39] Shai Korman: So the one that – at least the one that we saw as kids, like the way Becky described, it seemed just like, oh, like a cute kitty, like wow. It was very respectful and cool and, you know, was not at all scary because I would have been, and my siblings know this, the first one out of there.

[9:56] Lily Korman: You know, they shut down. They pretended the alien encounter in Disney World was broken just because Lily's parents –

[10:03] Becky Korman: Because they could let me leave.

[10:05] Lily Korman: Yeah. They for sure pretended there was a malfunction because they had to let – like they would have gotten sued had they not let – they're like, we have to let this girl out.

[10:13] Mike Abrams: Okay. Yeah.

[10:15] Shai Korman: Thank God.

[10:17] Mike Abrams: I guess thankfully the production –

[10:18] Shai Korman: We only waited an entire day, and I was so excited for it, and Lily –

[10:22] Lily Korman: I ruined it.

[10:24] Shai Korman: Wow.

[10:25] Becky Korman: I'm a huge scaredy cat.

[10:27] Mike Abrams: So how many times now have you seen it live? Have you lost count?

[10:32] Shai Korman: No, I think I've only seen it that one time live.

[10:34] Becky Korman: And Becky and I flew to L.A.

[10:40] Shai Korman: I'm pretty sure I've seen it twice.

[10:42] Mike Abrams: Okay.

[10:43] Shai Korman: So I've seen it in the 90s. I saw it once I think while I was dating my – like when Allie and I were dating because when they did the tour after 2016, I think –

[10:55] Becky Korman: You're like, Allie, if you want to marry me, you have to come see this show.

[10:58] Shai Korman: I feel like maybe I saw it one other time. Then I definitely saw 2016 on Broadway with the kids. Definitely saw 2016 on Broadway with the kids. And then saw the touring company again with the kids and then saw the time Becky and I saw it on Costa Mesa. So I've seen it five times.

[11:18] Becky Korman: Okay.

[11:19] Lily Korman: So you outnumbered me here.

[11:21] Shai Korman: Five times is more than my two.

[11:23] Becky Korman: Plus all the times you've seen it on TV.

[11:26] Shai Korman: As a kid, we watched that VHS a lot.

[11:29] Lily Korman: Did you burn through a VHS?

[11:31] Shai Korman: I know people that have literally burned through them. I know I have three copies of the DVD and Blu-ray from over the years because I get worried I'm going to lose them.

[11:40] Becky Korman: You have three copies.

[11:41] Shai Korman: Do you have a digital version yet?

[11:43] Becky Korman: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[11:45] Shai Korman: And I could not tell you the hours that were spent listening to the tape.

[11:50] Lily Korman: Oh, yeah.

[11:51] Shai Korman: That soundtrack? As kids. That soundtrack was nonstop. We had the Broadway soundtrack, so we had the full Harry Grumman.

[11:58] Becky Korman: But didn't we also have the West End one, right?

[12:02] Shai Korman: Well, no, so we didn't. You know how I know we didn't? So we had that one, and then we had this CD that was just selections from Cats. And it had the eyes, and then it had this little pattern. And it had some greatest hits, but I'm pretty sure there's a different memory on there and there's a different Jellicle Ball on there because I knew that CD the most. And when we got the Broadway version, I remember being like, the memory sounds a little different. And the Jellicle Ball, the old Jellicle Ball, is very, very long. It's not just that peppy fast part, which is the one on the selection CD. And then years later I went into one of my Cats rabbit holes and I bought the London version. And do you know how I know the London version? We did not grow up. Have you ever heard of the London version of Mungojerry and Rumpleteazer? The one that's in the movie.

[12:50] Becky Korman: Yeah, very different.

[12:53] Shai Korman: It's very different, and it was brought back for the 2019 movie. So that actually was one of my complaints, a big one of my many complaints in that movie, because that was the one song when I walked out the first time seeing it that was stuck in my head. That was like pure repetition. They just say their names over and over and over again. I could not. Those are the two that I was like, Mungojerry and Rumpleteazer. I sang that for like a week later. And then to have that go and be the one that they just go back to the British version, which is dramatically different. I got to say, I would say I'm a big defender of that movie. I love that movie. I have gone on a podcast and defended it. But I would say that's probably the most grievous choice. Like, DGI, private part removal, Bustopher Jones gobbling lobster and shrimp, whatever.

[13:46] Becky Korman: I love that.

[13:47] Shai Korman: That's a hot take.

[13:48] Mike Abrams: Of all the things that are wrong with this movie, your biggest complaint is the British Mungojerry and Rumpleteazer.

[13:53] Shai Korman: Yes.

[13:54] Mike Abrams: Or of cats. Or when everybody says, oh, it doesn't have a plot, whatever. The songs are great. The music is great. And that is, Mungojerry and Rumpleteazer are, they're a crowd pleaser. They're a greatest hit. And they just whiffed there. That's a long, relevant part of the movie. Instead of the one we grew up with, you get the chimney sweep version, Mungojerry and Rumpleteazer.

[14:19] Becky Korman: I hope you're going to keep singing throughout this podcast.

[14:25] Shai Korman: He can, for sure.

[14:28] Mike Abrams: Let's talk a little bit about the stage musical before we get to the movie. And I do want to spend a lot of time on the movie. Because this is going to be the rarity of like, I pretty much only talked about the movie after I saw it, when we went to see it for this show. So, stage version. Now, as adults, as experts, seen it many times, know it. If you were going to go take somebody who's not seen Cats, what would you tell them?

[14:55] Mike Abrams: How would you prepare for this?

[15:25] Shai Korman: If you're not going to make it less judgmental, then it's great.

[15:27] Shai Korman: I want to make sure Act 2 makes sense.

[15:30] Lily Korman: Yeah, so I agree with you there, that if you go in and just appreciate the singing and dancing, it's a very different show than if you try to tie a story together.

[15:41] Mike Abrams: What about you, Pink and Lil?

[15:43] Lily Korman: Yeah.

[15:44] Becky Korman: I haven't really had to preface it for anyone before, but this is an interesting...

[15:49] Lily Korman: So no, but I'm taking my husband, it will be his first time seeing it.

[15:53] Mike Abrams: I'm going to be there for that.

[15:55] Lily Korman: I think... I wonder what he'll think of it.

[15:58] Lily Korman: My husband works in animation.

[16:00] Lily Korman: Whose job is childlike wonder.

[16:03] Lily Korman: His job is creating childlike wonder, and he's particularly talented when it comes to drawing animals.

[16:10] Lily Korman: Although he's really good at story, so this is a problem.

[16:13] Lily Korman: And he's really good at story.

[16:16] Lily Korman: That's his actual job is to create stories.

[16:18] Lily Korman: So I feel like I would tell him, think of it as a study in the physical movement of a cat.

[16:30] Lily Korman: You're studying the movement of a cat. You're watching humans and animals forge into one.

[16:42] Lily Korman: And again, similarly to Shai, I'd say you're not... Don't focus so heavily on getting a story out of it, but enjoy the vignettes.

[16:51] Lily Korman: It's really... You're there for the vignettes, you're there for the moments where you're learning about each... It's one giant introduction, right?

[16:59] Shai Korman: Yeah.

[17:00] Becky Korman: Yeah.

[17:01] Lily Korman: But I think... I've talked about it and I've said, you know, I start with saying, this is some... This is why I asked how old you were, more or less, because this is fundamentally from the 80s.

[17:13] Shai Korman: Yes.

[17:14] Lily Korman: This could not have been made in any other era.

[17:19] Shai Korman: And it premiered in '82, right?

[17:22] Becky Korman: Correct?

[17:23] Lily Korman: And I think that that's A, why we love it so much. We are huge products of the 80s, but also, you know, for... And why children love it so much, because kids love stuff that's like goofy and silly, and that's basically the 80s.

[17:41] Shai Korman: And so I think that if you come at it, and that's probably why I think the movie had so many problems, because it's made so far past the 80s.

[17:49] Becky Korman: Right.

[17:50] Lily Korman: It's so... And they didn't make... They didn't lean into the 80s.

[17:52] Becky Korman: They didn't.

[17:55] Lily Korman: I think everybody should have just been dressed like they were in the show.

[18:00] Shai Korman: I don't know why we had to digitize them.

[18:03] Lily Korman: Digitalize them.

[18:05] Shai Korman: Whatever.

[18:06] Lily Korman: Digitalize them in post.

[18:07] Shai Korman: Digitalize them in post.

[18:08] Lily Korman: Yeah.

[18:09] Shai Korman: Like the amount of CG.

[18:10] Lily Korman: They were all digitalized in post.

[18:12] Shai Korman: It didn't work.

[18:13] Lily Korman: Exactly.

[18:14] Lily Korman: And so I think that, you know, had they gone with a more authentic approach, it would have worked better.

[18:22] Shai Korman: But I think it's also why maybe people, you know, from the 2000s can't appreciate it.

[18:30] Becky Korman: Right.

[18:31] Shai Korman: It's the most... I think that's fair. It is the most 80s show.

[18:34] Lily Korman: Not as in it's 80s music.

[18:35] Shai Korman: It is.

[18:36] Lily Korman: As in, this came out in the 80s, people.

[18:38] Shai Korman: 80s.

[18:39] Becky Korman: The hit.

[18:40] Shai Korman: They pushed, yeah.

[18:41] Lily Korman: The costuming.

[18:42] Shai Korman: The...

[18:43] Lily Korman: Yeah.

[18:44] Lily Korman: It just... Yeah.

[18:45] Lily Korman: To me, it's very cemented in that time.

[18:47] Lily Korman: And that's how I would explain it to someone.

[18:50] Lily Korman: Imagine what a Broadway musical... This is before Lion King, this is before Hamilton, like, none of this, you know, classy shit.

[18:57] Shai Korman: Like, let's go to the early 80s, a musical about cats.

[19:02] Lily Korman: This is exactly... You could not ask for anything else.

[19:04] Lily Korman: This is exactly what you're signing up for.

[19:06] Shai Korman: So, Becky, here's what you need to tell your husband.

[19:11] Shai Korman: He's going to watch an 80s musical that is basically a cult.

[19:16] Shai Korman: And so, if you try to understand how cults are making decisions, it'll drive you crazy.

[19:23] Shai Korman: Because there's not a lot of logic to it.

[19:26] Shai Korman: And so, just enjoy watching the chaos of seeing a cult in their element.

[19:32] Lily Korman: And that's the way I would...

[19:33] Lily Korman: Well, I mean, he also really loves things that are very artistic and slightly pretentious.

[19:38] Lily Korman: Though, if there's a way I could also spin that, is that this is really such a form of...

[19:44] Lily Korman: He doesn't necessarily see a lot of musicals. This is a form of very serious high art.

[19:49] Lily Korman: And most people mock it because they just don't understand it.

[19:52] Shai Korman: That would probably really work for him, too.

[19:54] Lily Korman: And he's like, oh, okay.

[19:55] Shai Korman: All right.

[19:56] Lily Korman: Yeah.

[19:57] Lily Korman: I mean, if he...

[19:59] Lily Korman: Plus, he was living in Russia in the 80s, so he missed all of the fun part of the 80s because he was a little boy growing up in Moscow.

[20:07] Lily Korman: So, this will be, you know, his little window into some authentic 80s culture.

[20:12] Shai Korman: In Moscow, the play that they got was Cabbage.

[20:18] Shai Korman: It was just a bunch of feral cats on a stage eating discarded cabbage.

[20:23] Shai Korman: That's what it was.

[20:25] Shai Korman: It's just a bunch of Busterford Jones, just multiple Busterford Jones.

[20:29] Mike Abrams: Okay. I want to hear a little bit about, like, which cats are your favorites? Which ones are, like, that stuck out to you? Like, who do you remember? And then, who are the ones, like, because there are plenty that I bet you have no idea who they even are.

[20:42] Shai Korman: For sure.

[20:43] Lily Korman: For sure.

[20:44] Shai Korman: Which are the ones that you... Shai's the one that has introduced us.

[20:46] Shai Korman: There was only one cat.

[20:47] Shai Korman: And I already mentioned this.

[20:48] Shai Korman: Well, I know, like, a Tumble Brutus when I see him.

[20:51] Lily Korman: But...

[20:52] Shai Korman: But, like, to me as a kid, and for very many, many...

[20:54] Shai Korman: A Tumble Brutus?

[20:55] Shai Korman: A long time, there was only one cat that existed and that mattered, and that was Mr. Mistoffelees.

[21:00] Shai Korman: Like, that's...

[21:01] Lily Korman: Okay.

[21:02] Shai Korman: I love it.

[21:03] Shai Korman: That... I didn't fully under... Like, even care.

[21:06] Shai Korman: And then, as I got a bit older and learned to play the piano and, like, we learned a lot about memory or whatever, and I was like, oh, yeah, you know, memories, that's, you know, Grizabella.

[21:13] Shai Korman: Rum Tum Tugger, I would say, would be a close second because that's just such a memorable number.

[21:19] Shai Korman: It's, like, a memorable... So much hips in that.

[21:21] Shai Korman: So much thrusting.

[21:23] Shai Korman: There's a lot of thrusting.

[21:24] Shai Korman: It's, like, gyrating.

[21:25] Shai Korman: My wife is...

[21:26] Shai Korman: A lot of thrusting.

[21:27] Shai Korman: My wife has requested that this be the last time she ever has to see cats, but she loves the Rum Tum Tugger.

[21:33] Lily Korman: Right.

[21:34] Shai Korman: Like, there's just something... And I love the way that the song is spoken, like, the way it's, like, you know, the rhythm of the song is like that.

[21:41] Shai Korman: So, but, yeah, none of, like, oh, my God, I wasn't even aware that there were other cats and they didn't matter to me.

[21:50] Lily Korman: Yeah.

[21:51] Shai Korman: Tugger and then Macavity's Bomb and Demeter has, I think, been sexual awakenings for many people.

[21:55] Becky Korman: Really?

[21:57] Shai Korman: Depending on...

[21:58] Shai Korman: Yeah.

[21:59] Shai Korman: Oh, yeah.

[22:00] Shai Korman: For a lot of people.

[22:01] Becky Korman: My favorites...

[22:03] Lily Korman: I mean, and I'm going to go with, like, my child, like, what has stuck with me since childhood is I've really grown to appreciate many and all of them.

[22:11] Shai Korman: But I love MonkaStrap and I love Rum Tum Tugger.

[22:15] Shai Korman: And part of it is that they embody a lot of... They are the Luke Skywalker and Han Solo, the Leonardo and the Raphael, the Cyclops and the Wolverine of the cat's world, meaning MonkaStrap, he's, like, the nerdier, older brother who has all the responsibility.

[22:36] Shai Korman: That's how I feel.

[22:41] Shai Korman: And Rum Tum Tugger is the rule-breaking friend, but who also is himself an important leader in the group.

[22:46] Shai Korman: And, you know, one of the important, like, older cats, he plays a, you know, he... So he's also important.

[22:56] Shai Korman: So those two have always been my favorite.

[22:59] Shai Korman: And then I'll throw in Bob Ballerina and Demeter.

[23:00] Shai Korman: They really... Like, I would see... I would watch, like, a sequel of the four of them.

[23:05] Lily Korman: Yeah.

[23:06] Shai Korman: There's a lot of history with the four of them.

[23:09] Shai Korman: So I think that that would be... Yeah, you could spin this off for sure.

[23:13] Lily Korman: Yeah, I would.

[23:17] Becky Korman: I mean, I agree with Lily in that Mistoffelees is just, I mean, he's magical.

[23:25] Becky Korman: And there's Mistoffelees and no one else.

[23:28] Becky Korman: I mean, that's really at the top.

[23:31] Becky Korman: But after him, I would say I love Jenny Annie Dots.

[23:36] Becky Korman: I love her.

[23:38] Becky Korman: I get her.

[23:40] Becky Korman: You know, I identify with her in so many ways.

[23:44] Becky Korman: You know, I love her song.

[23:47] Becky Korman: I love her vibe.

[23:49] Becky Korman: This is a really fun question to ask because it was Claire Camp who was in the 2016 revival Dance Captain.

[23:55] Becky Korman: Her party trick is that she just tries to identify your personality.

[24:00] Becky Korman: And I think it's really interesting to hear, do you pick a cat that is very much you or very much not you?

[24:06] Becky Korman: And that's why you picked either or.

[24:09] Shai Korman: I think it's kind of fun because I think that's why the show is... People identify with the show so much is there's probably one cat that they can identify with or one cat they would want to be friends with.

[24:18] Shai Korman: There's enough different types of personalities to go.

[24:21] Becky Korman: So I'm going to give you a tip, since I think a couple of you will be seeing it in DC in January.

[24:27] Becky Korman: The ones that I knew nothing about and I'm fascinated by, and if I do get to go see it as well in DC, I'm going to be watching them.

[24:36] Becky Korman: There are twins, Corcopat and Tantamile, and they are going to know everything that's happening before it's happened.

[24:43] Becky Korman: From what I've been told from them is that when a character is going to come on stage, they will turn before knowing that that character is coming.

[24:49] Becky Korman: They're very psychic in that sense because they have the connection to Eldorado.

[24:56] Shai Korman: The way you say, when I heard from them, it sounds...

[25:00] Becky Korman: Yeah, from people who have played them.

[25:02] Becky Korman: I know that now, but like...

[25:04] Shai Korman: What I love to hear though is like, I get so annoyed when people go in and they're like, yeah, I didn't understand it.

[25:11] Shai Korman: There's so much going on, and then there's so much that is not spoon-fed to you, and it leaves so much to the imagination, but then there are these subtle details like Corcopat and Tantamile are foreshadowing things.

[25:20] Becky Korman: That's so rad.

[25:23] Shai Korman: Yeah.

[25:24] Shai Korman: So when you go, if you can pick them out, they'll be together at all times.

[25:29] Becky Korman: That is something I'm going to be looking for next time I watch.

[25:32] Becky Korman: So there's going to be some stuff... That's like a tip you heard from them, the actual cats, to pay attention for the next time you see it.

[25:39] Shai Korman: Well, it's more of just like, it's their story.

[25:43] Shai Korman: Their story when they're on there, they're singing and dancing in the back, and part of it, but they don't have a song about them.

[25:50] Shai Korman: They don't get their moment in the sun for that.

[25:54] Shai Korman: So they're doing this other part.

[25:57] Shai Korman: And then Tumble Brutus is named that, I think, because he tumbles.

[26:01] Shai Korman: He's not going to sing much, but he's going to do these amazing passes and flips and all kinds of stuff, and they're generally gymnasts that can do those things.

[26:09] Shai Korman: So it's like they all have these pieces, but then they each also still have this crazy backstory that they've thought of, even for Tumble Brutus, or especially the twins.

[26:17] Shai Korman: The twins' backstories are crazy because they're doing everything in sync.

[26:21] Shai Korman: So it is a piece where it's like, you aren't fed that.

[26:25] Shai Korman: Good luck trying to pull that out if you are just watching it from the audience for one time and probably aren't going to see it again.

[26:32] Shai Korman: But it's what makes the show pretty incredible.

[26:35] Shai Korman: When I've seen it with other people, even though it can be annoying, I do like to point out little details.

[26:40] Shai Korman: I didn't know that one, but I'd like to point out little details, and I think that makes it fun.

[26:44] Mike Abrams: All right. Let's go to the... Actually, before we go to the 2019 movie, Jai, I know you said a little bit about your X-Men theory, but I have talked... We've done a lot. We did it on your show where we compared cats to different shows and different characters. We did White Lotus on your show. I want to hear your cat X-Men theory. How did these combine? Give me the whole detail.

[27:06] Shai Korman: Okay. So I have always imagined, and I actually really want to work with an artist at some point to literally do this. But to me, the tribe of the cats has always fit beautifully with X-Men. They're this special group, this special tribe. They're endowed with a certain amount of powers. And then within the tribe, there have been splits of which there are villains, but there are villains that are still deeply connected to the tribe. So that to me... Now, X-Men is the story of outsiders and all that. Now, I don't have as much of that, but let's just talk about intra X-Men mutant politics.

[27:45] Shai Korman: So that's one thing. And the other thing is you have this all-knowing person at the top, the teacher, but who's like a little older, a little more sickly. That's Professor X, old Deuteronomy, right? A little bit psychic, all-knowing, right? That's exactly him.

[28:03] Shai Korman: Then I've said it before, Monkestrap is 100% Cyclops. He's the guy who's in charge when Professor X gets taken away. He's the one who has to make the tough decisions. He's a little bit hard on Grizabella early on, but in the end, his heart softens. And when it goes time to throw down and he's got to go fight and the cats have to be protected, he's in there sacrificing his body against the cavity.

[28:28] Shai Korman: I didn't mention Alonzo, but I would probably put Alonzo as Colossus or one of the other strong but not particularly high level powers of mutants that would probably be in there because Alonzo engages in a fight with Macavity. And I just imagine that's like an action scene.

[28:44] Becky Korman: So cool.

[28:45] Shai Korman: Yeah. Which villain is Macavity then in the X-Men universe?

[28:48] Shai Korman: This is tough for me because I think if you're going with the whole tribe story, Macavity is going to be Magneto because Magneto is essentially one of the X-Men, but an extremist broken version of it. But that's a little bit too sympathetic for who Macavity is because although Magneto can be a mutant supremacist, he has a certain amount of empathy. He's a Holocaust survivor. He also has led the X-Men. I don't see that happening with Macavity. I actually think Macavity is more like Apocalypse, which is a true purist mutant supremacist or maybe Sebastian Shaw, but Sebastian Shaw just isn't that big of a villain. So he's kind of a mix of Magneto and Apocalypse to me.

[29:41] Mike Abrams: I love the thought that you put into this. I would be remiss if I didn't call out that the minute you started on this rant, both Lillian and Becky.

[30:20] Mike Abrams: I have an artist for you who is in DC who is a guest on the show, who will be able to do it. I have her tab open since we first met. I have to reach out. She's an incredible artist and a huge CATS fan and has drawn a lot of CATS. She's ready to do this. I have to say, the X-Men seems to lend itself really well to this. Remember in X-Men First Class when they did the kind of goofy makeup job on Nicholas Holt's Beast? I remember Lily's first view was, why did he look like the Rum Tum Tugger? He looked like a cat from CATS, for sure. We'll be back after this short break.

[31:17] Mike Abrams: Let's go to the 2019 movie to celebrate, or if we're going to call it celebration, three years. Three years since this movie came out. When did you see it? Did you go see it in theaters? What was your experience with it? I saw it immediately.

[31:28] Lily Korman: I live in Spain, so it hasn't come out yet. This came out right after my second was born.

[31:36] Becky Korman: Yeah, it came out the same week as the Star Wars movie.

[31:40] Mike Abrams: That's a real smart publicity strategy. Wait, not only did I see it, I had a newborn that was either only a few days maximum, only a few weeks old. I think she was maybe five days old. When did it come out exactly?

[32:05] Lily Korman: December 16th was the first Friday it started, I think.

[32:09] Becky Korman: She was two weeks old, maybe three weeks by then. I remember leaving her at home. I don't remember with whom, my mom, my husband, and going with you to see it in the theaters. I was very out of it at that time, but that's how important it was to us to see it, with a newborn baby at home.

[32:29] Shai Korman: The first time I saw it, and I'm just double-checking my calendar, but the first time I saw it was on the opening week or weekend, whenever that was. I took some folk from my staff at the place that I worked at the time because they wanted to see it, too. We just took our Blackberries or whatever, our phones, and we left work early, and we went to go see it.

[32:57] Shai Korman: I actually saw it that week when they had the CGI all wrong, and then I saw it after they fixed it. I couldn't tell the difference. I loved it either way, but I definitely couldn't tell the difference between the two versions.

[33:11] Mike Abrams: Okay, so you saw the unfinished and then the partially finished. How busy was your theater when you saw it?

[33:19] Shai Korman: I don't know. This was first all midday, matinee on a Friday or something like that, and there was maybe 30 people in the theater. There was not a lot of people. I was bummed.

[33:32] Mike Abrams: And what was the crowd reaction?

[33:34] Shai Korman: Well, the people that were there were mostly CATS fans. Yeah, there were people there with ears on and stuff, and then the people off of it were fans of CATS also. There weren't a lot of uninitiated.

[33:47] Becky Korman: I saw a press recording, the unfinished, because it was still not fully out yet. It was the day after they did the premiere premiere where it was really not finished, because he was working up until he probably put his tux on. And I was in a theater full of people that were invited either for press or family, and about 10 minutes in, everyone was laughing. And I was like, this isn't a laughing part of this movie. Not a good thing. So I knew that this was going to be an interesting experience to begin with. But I want to hear, because you defend it, it seems like more.

[34:23] Shai Korman: Oh, shy. Yes. How do you defend this movie more?

[34:28] Becky Korman: To be clear, I will throw down and defend this movie, too. Because I very adamantly believe that people who enjoy this film, who go into it and have a joyful experience, maintain their childlike wonder. And it's the people who are jaded and they're either hating on it or they're making fun of it in an unloving way. Because you can certainly tease this, troll this movie in a very loving way. But people who do it unlovingly, you're just a jaded, angry person who remembers none of the sparkle and enjoyment of imagination and your young, childlike mind.

[35:16] Mike Abrams: I agree with that. I agree with that completely. I'll also add, and I'm going to attack hard on anyone who wrote a negative review about this movie. We live in a culture where people do knee-jerk things, and everyone's defending different people and not defending different people online. But there was this psychic recognition between all of the cool kids who defend every single person in the world that they were all going to get all their bullying out on this movie and wrote some of the meanest, most not funny but trying to be quippy. It was like reading the Twitter of movie reviews. There's a side of Twitter that brings out the worst in people. There's also a side of Twitter that, and I'm not making a political comment on the mess that Twitter is right now, there's a side of Twitter that's a great place to gather fans and talk about things that you love.

It was like every single person who stood for something good, it was like they had to get something out of their system and see, how can I be nastier and funnier and quippier and more intellectual than the other person who wrote a review about this? What really pushed me over the edge is James Corden getting on the movie. Because I'm like, listen, man, a lot of people worked really hard on this, and you were paid a lot of money to be in it. If it had gotten good reviews, but you so badly wanted to be cool, wanted to be sitting at the popular kid table, that he just needed to get on the bandwagon. Like I said, I'm not saying people shouldn't make fun of it or tease it, but there is a loving way to do it, and there is an unloving way to do it.

The fact that this was made a few years ago... I'll be filming an actual movie soon, too, by the way. I have time for point detail. Right. The fact that the proportions are so off on this movie is insane to me. Sometimes the cats look like they're human size, and sometimes they look like they're Honey, I Shrunk the Cat. It's so insane to me that in one same movie... But do you go to Cirque du Soleil and be like, oh my god, that contortionist is making duck noises. They're not really a duck. No, no, agreed. At no point do I believe they're really cats. I'm just saying, they could have simplified things so much. They could have done a better job. That's what I'm saying. They could have done a better job, and it annoys me that they took something so precious to so many people and shit the bed on the proportions.

If I would have made this film, I will say I would have made this film differently, but I'm going to talk about what I love. If I would have made this film, I would have shot it realistically and emphasized the... And to Lily's point, now that Lily's made it, I would have even 80s'd up the costumes, and I would have shot it like a Kung Fu movie. I would have shot it like the Raid Redemption, so that people see the incredible physicality that's needed to do this play. And I would have tried to, if possible, even do some live singing, because that's part of what blows you away when you see CATS.

[38:36] Shai Korman: So I think...

[38:37] Becky Korman: Les Mis, like the Les Mis movie.

[38:38] Shai Korman: Yeah, like Cooper did with Les Mis. Okay, so we didn't do that. Now let me tell you what I love about this. So first of all, I think that from a story standpoint, this is a huge improvement. It makes a lot more sense than the original play. You're following this outsider who's dropped in in Victoria. He has a lovish arc with this guy who's timid, who's finding himself in Mr. Mistoffelees. The song that's added... Sometimes the songs that's added for these plays to get Oscar bait are garbage. Taylor Swift and Andrew Lloyd Webber did a beautiful job. And Beautiful Ghosts really does add an emotional punch and a depth and a connection between Grizabella and the tribe so that her redemption is a lot better earned. And I think that you do have some amazing numbers. Lily's flashing the proportions.

[39:44] Lily Korman: No, I'm watching it right now on my phone as you're talking.

[39:48] Shai Korman: I need to see it. It's so insane to me that I need to see it while you talk about it. And I think Francesca Hayward's performance, Robbie Fairchild's performance, Laurie Anderson, all of the Broadway people in this are amazing. And Jason Derulo.

[40:03] Becky Korman: He was pretty good. He was a good teller. Ian McKellan and Judi Dench, professionalism. You've never heard them make fun of their role. Judi Dench committed to her vagina in that play. And Ian McKellan. Freaking Gandalf is licking milk. Richard III, licking milk from a saucer. You don't hear them being bitches about it after. They talk reverentially about it. So I love that. I also think, again, McAvity, I love, what's his name as McAvity? Oh, God, I love him so much. Idris Elba.

[40:42] Shai Korman: Idris Elba.

[40:43] Becky Korman: I like his, they also sprinkle him more through the play as opposed to just saying his name. So you get the sense of how menacing he is. He's offing cats throughout the play, throughout the story. I think all of those things are really great. I think the music is still great. I think that, I think the mix, I've always thought, and Becky, I think you agreed, the mix on Rum Tum Tugger in the film as opposed to the soundtrack is weird.

[41:09] Becky Korman: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember we talked about that.

[41:12] Shai Korman: And there's a few, I would say, I would say the Skimbleshanks is phenomenal. That, the creativity they did on the Skimbleshanks, which is one of the great songs, then to incorporate that dance number, talk about strange proportions, in there was phenomenal. So I would make, you know, that's my case for why the movie's a lot of fun. And I'm not saying it's better than the stage play, but there are certain elements of it that you can look at and say, oh, they tried here to do something pretty cool.

[41:41] Mike Abrams: First of all, I love the passionate defense of this movie, which I think the audience of this podcast should and will like, because I think you've got CATS fans listening to this. Look, I'm a fan with them, right? There's no question in my mind. And also, I'll say, let's give some love to Taylor Swift. She can do anything she wants. She's about to direct a movie, right? There is a scandal with Ticketmaster when her tickets, nobody's mad at Taylor Swift. That's how, that's where she is in her career as a performer, as a songwriter. And she was just so excited to be a cat. And she was great as Bombalurina. She delivers that song beautifully. She's befitting of Macavity. And so, yeah. I will go back actually to how you started this, Becky, which I think is all the hate is unwarranted on the fact that the movie was made and the criticism that, at least that I have, and most of what I've heard from, again, not the masses who are doing the criticism that you are criticizing. I have fundamental issues with how he edited this movie and some of the decisions made, not that the movie was made.

[42:52] Shai Korman: Right. I think you should be able to criticize some insane choices about the film, loving and appreciating CATS. It's not the CATS' fault. This movie is bad.

[43:02] Becky Korman: Yes. You got a hundred million dollars and you got really, really talented people.

[43:09] Mike Abrams: Right. Like, I mean, crazy talented people. I just think about all the dancers, like you said, Robbie Fairchild. You had the twins. You had the twins that were in it. The famous dancing, I forget their name. They're French. Those two guys were in it. There's so many incredible dancers and I don't think I saw a single thing they did because it was just jump cut after jump cut after jump cut after jump cut over and over and over again. You're missing the sort of ensemble. It needed, and that's why Skimbleshanks worked so well because it was the only time that they zoomed out and you could actually see the choreography. You also have an incredible choreographer in Andy Blankenbuehler who did the 2016 revival, who did Hamilton, who did all these other things that did really, what I believe is, I assume, is really amazing choreography, but I wasn't able to see most of it. So I think if somebody goes into Tom Hooper's archives and pulls the raw footage, you can make a good movie out of this.

[44:15] Shai Korman: Yes. There is an edit where you can zoom out and see a lot of the dancing, a lot of the choreography and a lot of the stuff that was done. And you got some of the good decisions with the storyline of making Victoria, because most people aren't going to be able to see. They added some actual spoken lyrics, which is not in the play, which is just not done there. So they added that. I like Macavity being the villain. There's a lot of decisions there. There was some weird stuff. Everything that Rebel Wilson did was a little strange.

[45:45] Mike Abrams: I yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

[45:48] Shai Korman: Has he made a movie since? No, right?

[45:52] Mike Abrams: I don't, I don't know. That's your all wheelhouse more than mine.

[45:57] Shai Korman: You put up a great... I love all the meme and comedy stuff you do about the show. It's loving. It's right. It's that what Becky described as it's the loving kind of humor. But there was a great bit about when DC, you said that when the DC movies weren't coming out, when they canceled this Batwoman, Batgirl movie or something, and then up a headline that said Tom Hooper says what, you can just not release a movie. I remember texting that.

[46:30] Mike Abrams: Thanks to Alexandra, who I heard I both write for the Broadway Beat. And that was one of my Broadway Beat stories, which is essentially the Onion for Broadway. It's a satire publication. It's hilarious if you like... they have some very funny stories. A lot of it goes over my head, though, like half the stuff that gets pitched. I'm like, I don't understand what you... like, I didn't do theater growing up. And I know some of the shows now being in New York, but they pitch these things. I'm like, I don't understand that joke. But I think that was mine.

[46:58] Shai Korman: I think that's great. I feel like it's really fresh and awesome to have someone who's not like been obsessed with the world of musical theater since they came out of the womb, you know, and to kind of see it with fresh eyes and to call shows on certain things of being like, wait, but that doesn't make sense.

[47:12] Mike Abrams: Yes. And that is where I... my most recent one for them was there's a show called Ohio State Murders, a play that just came out about Ohio State Murders. I couldn't tell you what it's about. But my headline joke was, being a Midwest, I went to the university, Big Ten football, Big Ten basketball. I was like, it's the Ohio State Murders. And so I wrote a whole story with football jokes and Midwest jokes about the Ohio State Murders that came out. I think it's the name of a podcast turned into a musical.

[47:48] Shai Korman: Yeah, exactly. Okay. To end us here, let's do some rapid fire. And I want to hear from each of you. You got to answer all these questions. So the first one is, if you could play a cat for one night in the play, who would you want to go on as? And why?

[48:00] Becky Korman: Okay, I have to. MonkaStrap because to be able to sing Jellicle Cats would just be the greatest thing. And then I'd kind of want to be Bomb Ballerina because Cavity is awesome. She's a bombshell. Those are my two.

[48:19] Lily Korman: I'm gonna go with Jenny. I'm gonna go with Jenny.

[48:32] Shai Korman: No, I know. I'm gonna say... I'm gonna say Mistoffelees because I think he has the sickest dance moves. I mean, he's got that amazing jumps, explosive, the jumps and I just do not feel comfortable. It'd be so much fun to do that.

[48:46] Mike Abrams: I want to see... I do not think he's... even in like a fantasy scenario, there's no way.

[48:54] Shai Korman: Yeah, I don't want to be... I don't want to be Deuteronomy. It just feels like such a heavy costume. Just stand there.

[49:06] Becky Korman: And you sit on stage during intermission.

[49:08] Shai Korman: Yeah, you just... oh, that's right. You just sit. Oh, no, no way. Forget it. Absolutely not. I would never want to be... I like Jenny and I feel like the stakes are... the stakes are not as high as Mistoffelees. Like I can't handle that kind of stress.

[49:15] Mike Abrams: Early on, tap number. Get your big stuff out of the way.

[49:21] Shai Korman: Exactly. Exactly. I love it. Okay. Who are your favorite and least favorite cats from the show?

[49:29] Shai Korman: I'm shy. We know it's Monk for. Yeah. We clearly established that.

[49:35] Becky Korman: You know, I've always been... I've always the Rumpus Cat. Does that count as a cat? The Rumpus Cat. That whole thing has never... and even Growl Tiger's Last Stand, which was cool for the majesty, like those just have never done it for me and are a bit of a distraction from my story.

[49:58] Lily Korman: My favorites are in the American version, Mungo, Jerry and Rumpelteazer, because I think they have the best names. They have the best names.

[50:05] Shai Korman: Mungo, Jerry and Rumpelteazer, Becky. Can you sing a bit of the song?

[50:10] Becky Korman: Can you start calling your kids Mungo, Jerry and Rumpelteazer?

[50:13] Shai Korman: Please do. I always imagine, you know, I own a cat.

[50:19] Becky Korman: I have the British one stuck in my head.

[50:21] Shai Korman: I think they're so funny. They're such a good team. Their American version of the song is fantastic and they have the best names. They are my favorite for sure.

[50:31] Lily Korman: I know all your kids, Mungo, Jerry and Rumpelteazer, Becky, because they actually I think might be them.

[50:37] Becky Korman: I guess my least favorite is McCavity because I don't understand why he's so mean.

[50:42] Shai Korman: Yeah, McCavity is my least favorite.

[50:44] Becky Korman: He's broken every human law.

[50:47] Shai Korman: Every human law, whatever that means.

[50:50] Becky Korman: Yeah, so he's definitely... as a kid, he was for sure my least favorite. And obviously my favorite is Mr. Mistoffelees.

[50:56] Mike Abrams: Okay, favorite song in the show?

[50:58] Shai Korman: Mr. Mistoffelees.

[51:00] Becky Korman: Mr. Mistoffelees.

[51:00] Lily Korman: Not a lot. The opener.

[51:02] Shai Korman: Yeah, and Jellicle. I've sung to myself both of those too many times.

[51:08] Becky Korman: Yeah, maybe Jellicle.

[51:09] Lily Korman: Jellicle, probably the opener.

[51:14] Shai Korman: Like that one.

[51:15] Becky Korman: Yeah, the opener is the best song.

[51:18] Shai Korman: The opener even beats Mistoffelees because you just like when you hear that music, you cannot help but get excited.

[51:23] Becky Korman: You want to do pirouettes around your living room.

[51:27] Shai Korman: Windmills.

[51:30] Becky Korman: It's so good. So jazzy.

[51:37] Shai Korman: For the naming of cats, though.

[51:40] Becky Korman: The naming of cats, okay.

[51:42] Shai Korman: That's not a very common answer, actually.

[51:45] Becky Korman: I mean, Heaviside Lair into naming of cats is like, that's your night swimming, find the river, close.

[51:49] Mike Abrams: It's going to like deep cut you into that kind of stuff.

[51:54] Shai Korman: So we didn't get into this podcast or even last one, but I've listened to your show a lot. And I know you all are very good cooks. You talk about cooking a lot. So which cat do you think would be the best cook?

[52:07] Becky Korman: Jenny Annie Dots.

[52:08] Shai Korman: Jenny Annie Dots.

[52:10] Becky Korman: I think she's like going to order you the best takeout. I don't know if she's going to make you the best food because she's kind of lazy.

[52:17] Shai Korman: She's going to be the best ordering at a restaurant.

[52:19] Becky Korman: No, but she's going to have the best standards of what she's willing.

[52:23] Shai Korman: She's not going to eat.

[52:24] Becky Korman: Who is she going to choose to cook from her? Not a Skimbleshanks. You think he's eating well on the railroad? I don't think so.

[52:31] Shai Korman: I'm with you, Jenny Annie Dots.

[52:34] Becky Korman: Exactly. It's got to be Jenny Annie Dots.

[52:36] Shai Korman: I think it's Jelly. I think it's Jellylorum. I think she's the caretaker.

[52:41] Becky Korman: Okay.

[52:42] Shai Korman: Jenny Annie's going to her for a good meal.

[52:45] Mike Abrams: Okay. Or Bustopher Jones, because he's just... but I think he's on the eating side, too.

[52:52] Shai Korman: Okay. So we talked a little bit about this in part one, but I have argued not for Grizabella to be the Jellicle choice. And so I want to hear your defense for Grizabella or who you're going to send to the Heaviside Lair.

[53:07] Becky Korman: Grizabella, beautiful ghost. That's my defense.

[53:10] Shai Korman: I'm defending... or like I said, I just feel like I get... I just... there's this sort of... I love the misdirect. I love the like, oh, wait, is it really going to be her? And like, she really didn't believe it was going to be her. And I like the sort of coming back from being ostracized. She looks so dirty. Like, I really, again, I emphasize that I feel like she is the one that really needs to just be like going to the groomer and the Heaviside Lair, getting her hair done, going to bath, relaxing, and just, you know, enjoying watching everybody from above.

[53:50] Mike Abrams: I love that you have the Heaviside Lair being like a salon. They're going to go up there and get pampered and massaged.

[53:59] Shai Korman: I'm going to send Gimbal Shanks because hot take. I don't like his song. I don't think he brings much to the table and I'm fine with him moving on to the next realm. I don't need to hear him next year.

[54:12] Becky Korman: So it's like a punishment.

[54:14] Shai Korman: You're seeing the Heaviside Lair as more of a punishment.

[54:17] Mike Abrams: No, I don't see it as a punishment.

[54:18] Shai Korman: Fine. He gets the reward, but I'm also rewarding... I'm also rewarding everyone in... See, the thing about if you send Gus, people are going to be really sad because he's so beloved, right? But I think Gimbal Shanks, no one's going to miss him. Go. Take your little railroad outfit with your buttons, with your shiny buttons and your mediocre song and get out of here. That's what I think. I don't want to hear it again next year at the Jellicle Ball.

[54:45] Mike Abrams: This is going to be a hot take. And I can tell you that because I called Gimbal the weird uncle and I got a lot of criticism for calling him the weird uncle. I was like, oh, he's the fun, great... everyone loves this song. Trekkie, they're coming for you. But my...

[55:02] Shai Korman: At FNMSISTERS.

[55:05] Mike Abrams: My animosity for Gimbal Shanks stems from when the first time I saw it and they make the train on stage, whoever... and it's not Gimbal Shanks, but I associated this with the song. Whoever points the light into the crowd, pointed it like... it was like, I'm going to hit you and pointed it right at me. And I was like blinded by it. And so I was like, I don't like this guy. I don't like Gimbal Shanks. And I've grown to like him now much more because it is a fun song. It's like a very upbeat. I've been trying to get into like a bunch of other things. I think it's a... there's a lot of other parts to that whole thing that's kind of strange, but it is pretty cool to watch them build a whole train on stage too. It's pretty cool.

[55:41] Becky Korman: But yeah, you're going to get it.

[55:44] Shai Korman: I won't disagree.

[55:46] Mike Abrams: But you're saying that it's cool. So maybe I'm thinking of...

[55:51] Shai Korman: I agree that that's a very cool aspect of it, but nothing in the movie version makes me want to keep Gimbal Shanks around for another Jellicle Ball.

[55:57] Mike Abrams: So you're choosing Gimbal Shanks?

[56:01] Shai Korman: No.

[56:02] Mike Abrams: Yeah, I'm sending him.

[56:03] Shai Korman: No, but okay. But Mike hasn't said who he's sending.

[56:07] Mike Abrams: I am going to send... I think for this episode today, I'm going to send... Actually, let me think about this from the movie angle. So in the movie angle, I think it's hard to argue Gus because he kind of plays more of the like, I'm in there. I think the movie version... they do write it with a lot more story for Grizabella. I like the let's get Gimbal's movie version out of here. I think in the movie version...

[56:35] Shai Korman: You said the editor of the movie?

[56:38] Mike Abrams: Yeah. We're going to send Tom Hooper out. I'm going to get rid of Mungojerry and Rumpleteazer because I need them to go up to the Heaviside Lair to become Americanized back. And to come back.

[56:52] Shai Korman: To be reincarnated and come back with a better song.

[56:55] Becky Korman: Come back with a better version.

[56:56] Mike Abrams: That's great. Or Mistoffelees. Like I need to send Mistoffelees up to go get his magic back or something.

[57:02] Shai Korman: Right.

[57:04] Mike Abrams: Yeah, I think that was a very weird choice.

[57:06] Shai Korman: Yeah, with Mistoffelees.

[57:08] Mike Abrams: So that's who I'm taking. Okay, this has been amazing. How can... one is how can people stay in touch with you, find your podcast? And then two, I know you're up for an award and I want people to vote for you. So how can they do that?

[57:19] Becky Korman: Do awards.

[57:20] Shai Korman: Do awards. Two for one with the answer.

[57:23] Becky Korman: At frinightmoviemovie on Instagram. And there in the link in bio, you can go vote for us. We are nominated for two Signal Awards. But overwhelmingly, amazingly, we are our limited series that we did on Lily's Infertility Journey. It doesn't have much to do with TV. In a limited series. And in the category, it's just us and Conan O'Brien. So if you go and you vote for us, you're really helping the little indie podcasts out there making a statement for indie podcasts.

[57:59] Shai Korman: And then we're also in another category with a whole bunch of other podcasts for Best Buddy Posts. And we're losing a lot in that one to a... I can't remember the name of the podcast that's beating us. Not because of... I don't know what your profanity rules here. So we're losing...

[58:17] Becky Korman: Whatever you want.

[58:18] Shai Korman: It's a show about an orgy. We're losing very actively right now to a podcast called Fuck Face.

[58:23] Mike Abrams: Wow.

[58:25] Shai Korman: Makes me feel bad about myself. I mean, they must be awesome. But where are those now?

[58:31] Becky Korman: And so, yeah. And then you can follow me at Pancake and the Number 4 Table on Instagram. And Lily and Becky, where can people follow you?

[58:38] Lily Korman: At FNMSisters on Instagram.

[58:43] Mike Abrams: Amazing. And you're anywhere you can get podcasts, right?

[58:46] Shai Korman: Anywhere you can get podcasts.

[58:47] Becky Korman: All the podcast places.

[58:48] Shai Korman: All the podcasts.

[58:49] Mike Abrams: Yeah. And if you go to the episode before, it will be part one. And these two conversations work well together. So if you listen to this, go back and listen to part one as well. And all the other amazing episodes that you've done. It is... I'm a fan and listener and love your show. And so it's super fun to have you on. So thank you again.

[59:09] Shai Korman: Thank you so much.

[59:09] Becky Korman: Thanks for having us.

[59:10] Mike Abrams: Awesome. We love you. And thanks, everyone else, for listening to this episode of The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of the cat's atrophy. To follow along, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or anywhere else to listen to podcasts. Follow us on Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok at TheWrongCatDied, or check out our website, thewrongcatdied.com.