This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:17] Mike Abrams: Welcome to The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of the Catsatrophy. I'm your host Mike Abrams, and today we have an amazing fan guest. She has a bunch of art and Cats dolls and has been doing fan writing and all kinds of stuff since the 80s when she's become a fan of the show. She wrote me a dissertation email on how Old Deuteronomy's criteria is defined in the lyrics. So I figured we had to talk through this and all kinds of other stuff. So welcome, Jen Anckorn, and thank you for joining me.

[0:45] Jen Anckorn: Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to do this.

[0:49] Mike Abrams: Your email kind of blew me away when I read it, because I just wasn't expecting to get an email with such a thoughtful note on a question I've been asking a lot. So I do want to get to that towards the end, though, because I think that's going to relay into your answer about Grizabella. But let's start at the beginning with your history of the show. I know you said that you became a fan of the show in the 80s in New Zealand from a cassette tape. When did you learn about the show?

[1:14] Jen Anckorn: Yeah, that's right. My parents actually got the cassette tape. It must have been around 1984. And I just kind of became obsessed with it. I would have been like six years old, didn't understand it at all. I mean, you guys kind of talk about not really understanding the show when you go and see it. But if you can imagine this little kid in sort of New Zealand who doesn't have any context for this at all, trying to figure out what it's about from a cassette tape. That was kind of my mission when I was a kid. It sounded kind of spooky to me. You start with those weird synthesizer noises. And then the lyrics are really difficult to understand, I think, maybe as an adult. But as a kid, there's all these words I've never heard before, all these strange names.

And I just would listen to it over and over and over again. It was all I wanted to listen to. And I had a little cassette player I got for my birthday. And after that, I was just basically in my room listening to this cassette tape, trying to figure out what it could possibly be about. So it's an interesting thing that you bring that up.

[2:15] Jen Anckorn: Because it seems like there's a group of people that will listen to every cast album before they see a show. And there's some people that won't do it. It's like, if I'm going to go see it, I don't want to hear anything. I want to be surprised in the moment.

[2:26] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[2:27] Jen Anckorn: And so you kind of just played through it. Now having seen the show, what's that experience like? Because it is such a visual show that it's kind of hard with just the cassette tape.

[2:39] Jen Anckorn: Yeah, because you don't really know who any of the... I mean, there's the list of names and naming, obviously. But you don't know which cat is singing which bit. And I wasn't really even sure if they were cats. Because the cassette had a little inlay. And there was one picture in it, I think it was of Mungo and Rump. But those early, this was the London, the original London cast. And those early costumes, they were kind of more impressionistic. So the female cats would have their hair up in pigtails to sort of signify ears. And the makeup was quite basic. And the costumes just kind of gave a suggestion of cats. So I was looking at this tiny black and white grainy photo of these two people. I was like, well, are these the cats?

Are there cats and people in this show? Because a lot of the songs are in third person as well. So I wasn't sure if these were people singing about cats. And then, you know, they're based on T.S. Eliot poems. Which are kind of, it's sort of set arising London in the 1930s. Which as a six-year-old in 80s New Zealand, I had no way of understanding. So I kind of understood it. But in this weird, it was kind of like a cargo cult. It was like getting messages from this little world that existed. And I was just trying to figure it out.

[3:47] Mike Abrams: Yeah, it is like a little, it's kind of dated at some point, you know, too. Because it's like the poems are old. And they're definitely British. And then it's become an international show. And so I do kind of think it's kind of, I can't even fathom being that young. And just hearing just the cassette tape. Having had the reverse experience. I saw the visual as an adult as the first introduction. Besides memory, you know. I think everyone knew memory at some point. And I had the reverse of like, wow, what did I see? And I think, you know, in your email you also told me that you do think children, it kind of goes over their heads. I agree with that. I think it's that middle teenager that it's like, that's probably a little strange. But it did kind of, especially the lyrics aren't going to really strike much. But when did you first see it? Because you said that you saw a tour.

[4:37] Jen Anckorn: Well, actually my friend in New Zealand, she was also a huge Cats fan. And she got, her dad worked for TV New Zealand. So when the Australia tour came to New Zealand, they did one show there I think in Auckland. And obviously that was still when Cats was like the mega show. Really hard to get tickets for. So I didn't get to go, but my friend did. And she got the program. And then we had a little bit more information because we could look at color pictures in the program. And she was an amazing dancer and gymnast. So she would try and act out what she remembered. But I still kind of didn't really have any idea of the show. And then in '91 me and my family moved back to the UK. My parents are British.

And pretty much the first thing we did when we got there, my mom took me to London to see the actual show. And that was when, you know, the curtains were open. The sort of like mystery was, I don't want to say the mystery ended because, you know, it's Cats. But I actually got to see the show that had been sort of like seared into my brain for a decade.

[5:36] Mike Abrams: You know, it's kind of, thinking about this from, like I grew up in the same era and time. And I'm hearing all this going like, oh, yeah. Like you don't know any of this stuff. And it's so different than today. Whereas, like when I started this, it's the Internet age. And the only reason I agreed to this originally is when I first got asked about the show, I said, well, let me see what I can find on the Internet. And you don't have all that at the time you're going through this. Like you're like having clues being pieced together, little piece by piece that you get as you learn more because there's not this 5,000-page Wikipedia fandom page that exists to tell you every nuance of the show that you need and all these theories.

And so it's so interesting to hear you say it that it's like, okay, I start with the cassette tape. Then I got a program. I learned just a little bit more. Then I finally got to see it. But you don't have any video. You know, there's no YouTube clips of it. So it's whatever your experience was at one time.

[6:29] Jen Anckorn: Yeah, it's kind of what you can remember from the show. And, you know, there's no, like you said, there's no '98 version. You can't watch it over and over again. There's no real, I mean, there are other fans because it's Cats. But there's no way to talk to them because, you know, this is before the internet, before we have a computer. And also starting off in New Zealand, like I suppose if you lived somewhere like New York, you would see commercials for it a lot. That's kind of the experience I get from other fans. But, you know, New Zealand, we had two TV stations. They weren't showing commercials for Cats. They weren't showing much of anything. So it really was just completely cut off from the phenomenon.

[7:04] Mike Abrams: Yeah, I mean, I'm from Indiana, so we weren't getting those commercials either. It is, yeah, and I don't remember the tours that came through. Like there was, you know, by the time I was, I don't know, teenage age, it was in regional productions. It was big enough to be, you know, had been on Broadway long enough that it was around. But you had to be a deep theater fan, in my opinion, to have noticed it. Because I didn't. It went right over my head. I was busy playing hockey. So you saw the London production. Was this West End or was this tour?

[7:35] Jen Anckorn: Yeah, this was the West End. This was the original production at the New London Theater, which, I mean, I love the tours. I think they're fantastic. The people who work on them are great. But to see it for the first time in a theater that has been purposefully built for Cats.

[8:04] Jen Anckorn: Because, you know, the New London was kind of like a rundown space, and they basically gutted it and rebuilt it to build Cats into it. And also it's kind of like an arty kid, the stage design. It's not in a really nice place of London. It's not one of those grand old theaters that, you know, you see the outside and you're like, oh, I'm at the theater. This is already great. It's kind of this boring square concrete building. And then you go inside and you're kind of in a different world. And kind of that's what I love about the theater. And I think having that as my first musical experience, I mean, it just blew my mind. Just walking into that space and seeing that set, it was more amazing than I could have hoped it would be.

[8:34] Mike Abrams: That's awesome.

[8:35] Jen Anckorn: Yeah. I mean, the whole design of the junkyard is insane to see the first time. So it's cool to see it in a place kind of built for it.

[8:43] Jen Anckorn: Yeah. The John Napier design is something I've always really loved about the show. He did, you know, the costumes and set. And just the way they incorporated, like, the junk wasn't just generic junk. It was, you know, brands that you recognize. It was like you'd walked in off the street and been shrunk down, and you were in this little cat's world. And just to be transported straight away. Because I think the thing about cats, I find, is that you have to come to meet it. It's not going to hold your hand and sort of take you through the show. You have to let yourself be put in that world before you're going to be able to enjoy it. And I think the set goes a long way towards doing that.

[9:17] Mike Abrams: Yeah. I remember when I saw the '98 movie the first time, I saw a Clark's shoebox as, like, part of it. And I was like, that's such a classically, you know, British, English company. And they're building it into, I think it was someone was wearing it as, like, a hat.

[9:31] Jen Anckorn: That's right, one of the dogs.

[9:33] Mike Abrams: Yeah, yeah. So I thought that was, you know, so clever, so smart. How many times have you seen the show now? Like, I mean, forgetting the movie, like, live. What's your count to you?

[9:42] Jen Anckorn: Live. Okay, so I am an artist. I think there's two kinds of artists. There's, like, the rich parents artist where you kind of have lots of money and you don't have to get a real job. And then there's the makes poor life decisions artist. And I'm the second one. So I don't have enough money to see shows a lot. So, unfortunately, I have seen it live three times.

[10:03] Mike Abrams: Awesome.

[10:04] Jen Anckorn: And I would love to go and see it more, but only three times.

[10:07] Mike Abrams: You've got me beat. I've seen it twice. So it's hard to see. I mean, it's beyond the cost. It's just, you know, now it's only touring or you've got to be in a place where it is.

[10:18] Jen Anckorn: So, yeah, I know. Accessibility is a never-ending conversation with Broadway for sure.

[10:25] Jen Anckorn: I mean, that's kind of why I love that people do bootlegs and put them on YouTube, I think. They provide such a service to the theater community and the fandom community. God bless them. But, yeah, the next time I saw it after that initial show in the U.K. was I moved to America. My husband's an American. And my big idea, we'd just gotten married. We'd been together living in America a month, and I was like, oh, Cats is in Boston where I live. I'm going to take my husband to Cats, and he's going to love it.

[10:52] Mike Abrams: Did that work out?

[10:54] Jen Anckorn: It did not work out. I think my first mistake was, like I said, we'd been married a month, so I was still making the grand romantic gestures. So I was like, I'm going to book front row, aisle seat. He's going to love it. And I think the lights go down, green eye starts, and a cat sits in his lap, and he is out.

[11:13] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[11:14] Jen Anckorn: He's instantly terrified.

[11:16] Mike Abrams: That is another theater thing. You either like to be involved from the beginning or you just want to be a spectator.

[11:23] Jen Anckorn: I'm the spectator type. I was very glad I was not on the aisle because I was still terrified when that green eye started. And so, yeah, I think you've got to know your audience. I did see a show recently, and it was an improv show, and we had four seats on the aisle. And I'm like, I'm going the fourth seat in. I was like, I'm going to be the fourth seat in. You all can sit on the aisle. I don't want to have any chance of being pulled up on this show.

[11:47] Mike Abrams: Yeah, and I'm usually like that, too. I really sympathize with him because any show but Cats, that would be me, too.

[11:53] Mike Abrams: I want to hear a little bit. You emailed me. We talked a little bit about some of the stuff that you and your fandom, and there's one that I did a little bit of checking out, but it's not as active. So I want to hear the history. You did some writing as a writer and an artist for, I think you said it was called Live Journal and Music Net Fan Spaces. So what are these? Tell me about them.

[12:13] Jen Anckorn: So I think before Tumblr was the space, like Live Journal, it's so funny having to explain what Live Journal is because it was so ubiquitous. Yeah, Live Journal was a place where people would have blogs, but they're also themed communities. And that was my Cats fandom space. Live Journal tended to be more talking about various different productions and themes.

[12:35] Jen Anckorn: I think each generation of CATS fans has their own theories, and I love that. I think it’s really interesting how the fandom has evolved over time, especially with the internet. I was a fan before the internet era, so I was part of the Live Journal community, which was a huge part of my experience as a fan.

[12:51] Jen Anckorn: I remember when I first started posting about CATS, it was like a whole new world opened up. We were all sharing our theories and interpretations of the characters and the story. It was a really exciting time to be a fan, and I think that’s where a lot of the modern theories originated.

[13:11] Jen Anckorn: One of my theories is about the lyrics of "Moments of Happiness." I believe they hold the key to understanding Old Deuteronomy's decision at the Jellicle Ball. If you look closely at those lyrics, they really encapsulate the essence of what it means to be a Jellicle cat and the importance of memory and connection.

[13:31] Jen Anckorn: I think Munkustrap is the best character in the show. He’s the protector, the one who looks out for everyone, and he has such a strong sense of duty. I love how he balances being a leader while also showing vulnerability. His character really resonates with me, and I think he deserves more recognition.

[13:51] Jen Anckorn: There’s so much depth to Munkustrap that often gets overlooked. He’s not just a side character; he’s integral to the story. His relationships with the other cats, especially with his brother Rum Tum Tugger, add layers to his character that I find fascinating.

[14:13] Jen Anckorn: I also think the way Munkustrap interacts with the other cats shows his leadership style. He’s not authoritarian; he’s more of a guiding figure. He encourages the other cats to be their best selves, which I think is a beautiful message.

[14:33] Jen Anckorn: The dynamics between the characters in CATS are so rich, and Munkustrap’s role in those dynamics is crucial. He’s the one who keeps everyone together, and I think that’s a testament to his character.

[14:53] Jen Anckorn: I love discussing these theories with other fans. It’s amazing how different perspectives can lead to new insights about the characters and the story. Each fan brings their own experiences and interpretations, which makes the community so vibrant.

[15:13] Jen Anckorn: I think it’s important to keep the conversation going, especially as new generations discover CATS. The show has such a timeless quality, and I believe it will continue to inspire discussions and theories for years to come.

[15:33] Jen Anckorn: I also appreciate how the show has evolved over time. Each production brings something new to the table, whether it’s a different interpretation of the characters or a fresh take on the choreography. It keeps the show alive and relevant.

[15:53] Jen Anckorn: I think that’s part of what makes CATS so special. It’s not just a musical; it’s a living, breathing piece of art that continues to resonate with audiences.

[16:13] Jen Anckorn: I love seeing how different productions interpret the characters. It’s fascinating to see how each actor brings their own flair to the role, and how that can change the audience's perception of the character.

[16:33] Jen Anckorn: I think that’s one of the reasons why I’m so passionate about CATS. There’s always something new to discover, whether it’s through the music, the choreography, or the characters themselves.

[16:53] Jen Anckorn: I also think the music plays a huge role in how we connect with the characters. Each song tells a story and gives us insight into the cats’ personalities and experiences.

[17:13] Jen Anckorn: The emotional depth of the music really enhances the storytelling. It’s not just about the lyrics; it’s about how the music conveys the feelings and struggles of the characters.

[17:33] Jen Anckorn: I think that’s why CATS has such a lasting impact. It’s not just a show; it’s an experience that resonates with people on multiple levels.

[17:53] Jen Anckorn: I love hearing other fans’ interpretations of the songs and how they relate to the characters. It’s a great way to connect with others who share the same passion.

[18:13] Jen Anckorn: I think the community aspect of being a CATS fan is one of the most rewarding parts. It’s a chance to bond over something we all love and to share our thoughts and theories.

[18:33] Jen Anckorn: I also think it’s important to keep the spirit of CATS alive, especially for new fans. There’s so much to explore, and I hope to inspire others to dive deeper into the world of CATS.

[19:03] Jen Anckorn: I think the more we share our theories and interpretations, the more we can appreciate the complexity of the show and its characters. It’s a never-ending journey of discovery.

[19:31] Jen Anckorn: I also love how CATS can evoke such strong emotions. Whether it’s joy, nostalgia, or even sadness, the show has a way of touching the heart.

[19:51] Jen Anckorn: I think that emotional connection is what keeps fans coming back. It’s a reminder of our own experiences and the bonds we share with others.

[20:11] Jen Anckorn: I hope to continue sharing my love for CATS and encouraging others to explore their own interpretations. There’s so much richness in the material, and I think everyone can find something that resonates with them.

[20:31] Jen Anckorn: I also think it’s important to celebrate the creativity of the fans. The artwork, the fan fiction, and the discussions all contribute to the vibrant tapestry of the CATS community.

[20:51] Jen Anckorn: I love seeing how fans express their love for the show in different ways. It’s a testament to the impact CATS has had on so many lives.

[21:11] Jen Anckorn: I think that’s what makes being a CATS fan so special. It’s not just about the show itself; it’s about the connections we make and the memories we create along the way.

[21:31] Jen Anckorn: I hope to continue being a part of this community and sharing my passion for CATS with others. There’s always something new to discover, and I can’t wait to see where the journey takes us.

[21:59] Jen Anckorn: I think the future of CATS fandom is bright. With new fans discovering the show every day, there’s so much potential for fresh perspectives and exciting discussions.

[22:27] Jen Anckorn: I’m excited to see how the community continues to grow and evolve. It’s a testament to the timelessness of the show and its ability to resonate with audiences across generations.

[22:55] Jen Anckorn: I think as long as there are fans who are passionate about CATS, the spirit of the show will live on. It’s a beautiful thing to be a part of.

[23:23] Jen Anckorn: I hope to inspire others to embrace their love for CATS and to share their own theories and interpretations. There’s so much joy in exploring the world of CATS together.

[23:43] Jen Anckorn: I think that’s what makes the CATS community so special. It’s a place where we can all come together and celebrate our shared love for the show.

[24:09] Jen Anckorn: I’m grateful to be a part of this community and to share my passion for CATS with others. It’s a journey that I hope will continue for many years to come.

[24:37] Jen Anckorn: I think as long as we keep the conversation going, CATS will continue to inspire and connect people. It’s a beautiful legacy that I’m proud to be a part of.

[25:05] Jen Anckorn: I can’t wait to see what the future holds for CATS and its fans. It’s an exciting time to be a part of this community.

[25:11] Mike Abrams: I definitely see it. What other theories do you have? I also like asking this question, although you started this conversation by saying you're not going to get defensive about him, but what have I gotten wrong? Where am I very clearly wrong on stuff?

[25:29] Jen Anckorn: I mean, you can get defensive. I love your Buster for Jones's theory. I think it's fantastic. I kind of prefer that, but I don't think that's Buster. No, I think he's more kind of a bumbling sort of. So that was kind of one of the things that I, when I was a kid, I would listen to Buster for Jones's song and I was like, okay, I get it. He likes to eat, but it's listing all these obscure places in London. I have, I didn't even know they were in London. I have no idea what they are. And then when I got older and I read the Jeeves and Worcester books, I was like, oh, this is who Buster for Jones is. These are all gentlemen's clubs, which I know like you interpreted as strip clubs, which I think is a fantastic interpretation.

I love that. But I think they're supposed to be like, you know, a club in London is if you were like a posh Etonian school boy, you would join a gentleman's club, which is basically a club for other rich men to get away from their wives and to hobnob and, and kind of just enjoy being an upper class fancy man. So he's kind of like this old sort of like stuffy kind of gourmand who doesn't really sort of, I don't think he's really that involved with the tribe. He just kind of turns up to say, you know, I'm here. I'm off again. I'm going to eat lunch, but I don't see him as a criminal mastermind, which actually I liked your version. So I'm not going to argue with it.

[26:45] Jen Anckorn: I think this is where the, just like the British English interpretation of it came. I read gentlemen's club as I was like reading about him and I'm like, that's, and this was when I was really up in arms about it being not for kids. And it's like, I think I just learned that the ball was an orgy and all this stuff. And I'm like, no, he's got this, you know, this one guy going to gentlemen's clubs. And then it's like, yeah, gentlemen's club has a very different term in London than it is in the United States. And so it's like, yeah, I think I just filled in blanks. I also think like, it's kind of a boring cat. So I think I just tried to make him more exciting to myself of like, if we're going to deal and talk about him, if I'm going to write a, an episode for him, like, let's make it more interesting. So that's where.

[27:25] Mike Abrams: Well, I agree with you. No, that's where I agree with you. I think, I don't want to say it's the worst song in Cats, but it's my least favorite song in Cats. I think his costume tends to get a laugh and sort of like, if you, you usually have a great singer in that role so they can really sell it. But if I'm like, if I'm watching it sort of on YouTube, whatever, then that's the number I'll skip.

[27:45] Jen Anckorn: Yeah. It is the number that gets cut in the Royal Caribbean 90 minute version. That's the first thing that gets cut.

[27:48] Mike Abrams: Yeah. I can't imagine a 90 minute version of Cats.

[27:51] Jen Anckorn: There is an, if you go, I had the Oasis of the Seas. I think it's still going. They do Cats, I think once or twice during the seven day cruise. If you are interested in going on a cruise and seeing Cats. I mean, I don't think I'm interested in going on it. I'd be the only person who went on the cruise specifically to see Cats. That is part of the challenge of doing that particular performance.

[28:10] Mike Abrams: What other theories, like what other theories am I, am I close on? Am I right on? What are the, like, what were the biggest theories that came out of your Live Journal? I'm trying to think now. Let me see.

[28:27] Jen Anckorn: I think another strange one, which no one really picks up on these days, this is kind of an obscure one and entirely based on the '98 version is Tugger Admetus. Because Admetus is such a minor character, I think in some versions he does the dance with Victoria. But I know in, if you watch the '98 version of Tugger, you have all the female cats dancing around him, plus Admetus. And Admetus is clearly having an amazing time and really enjoying himself and really into Tugger. So one of the main fan theories of the day was Tugger Admetus was a couple.

[29:01] Mike Abrams: I definitely did not pick that one up. That is, I wonder, do you know if that's like still even relevant in 2016's version? Like, are they still, like, is that more from the '98 movie?

[29:15] Jen Anckorn: I think it was in the '98 movie. See, this was the thing that sort of like the fandom in those days hinged around that '98 movie because it was the only one that everybody could reliably see and had seen. So I don't even know if Admetus is in the 2015 version. I don't think that Admetus is. Because like, right when you said that, I'm like, which cat? Like, who? I'm like, not even positive. I remember the name, but I don't think.

[29:36] Jen Anckorn: He's one of those, you have like Pounceable Cub, Barkity Admetus, who I always get mixed up to. I'm a bad cat fan. Is it Alonzo? Like, maybe they renamed him. No, he's not Alonzo. But I know in the '98 version, because they were trying to pull in as many sort of old cast members as possible, they put in a lot of cats who would sometimes be one cat combined. But yeah, Admetus was strangely popular in the '90s.

[30:02] Mike Abrams: All right, well, I want you to go, while you're giving me your next theory, I'm going to look up if they were in 2016. It's just, I'm curious if they're in 2016 or not.

[30:13] Jen Anckorn: And I think.

[30:14] Mike Abrams: Yeah, go with the next theory that you think the fans or that came out of this that you definitely need to know.

[30:19] Jen Anckorn: I think another one of the big theories, which you don't really hear that much nowadays, is Griddlebone was strangely popular. And I know they didn't even have that number in the 2016 revival. That was cut. Yeah. And I think a lot of people just loved her costume because she's barely in it. So Griddlebone was sometimes Grizabella's mother, sometimes Demeter and Bomb's mother. And I think a big theory that went around because they're both white cats was Griddlebone is Victoria's mother.

[30:59] Mike Abrams: Griddlebone. Oh, okay. So that eliminates the Grizabella question then. So that takes Grizabella from being Victoria's mother.

[31:05] Jen Anckorn: See there, I don't really buy into the Grizabella as Victoria's mother. I think as well, I don't think you can assume all the cats in the junkyard are related. Probably some of them are, some of them aren't. I always see Victoria as kind of an outsider. And I know that MonkaStrap is her father has become sort of like the accepted theory, which is one of those ones that I was like, oh yeah, I can see that. But yeah, back in the day, Griddlebone featured heavily in a lot of these theories. And the funny thing is I don't even know if she's a real cat because she only appears in the context of Gus telling about this pirate role he used to play on stage. So she's not necessarily even real. I suppose she is mentioned in Macavity. They mentioned Griddlebone as being one of the evil cats.

[31:54] Mike Abrams: Yeah. And they pointed it up in the newer movie for sure. Okay, I do have an admittance note. It's Plato is what was the renamed. So that was the difference as they renamed Admetus to Plato because it's supposed to be part of Macavity's number. And it was just an ensemble character. But to your point, in some productions did the Victoria dance.

[32:09] Jen Anckorn: Yeah, that's right. And that kind of is one of the things I do like about the Cats fandom is that you can see there's one cat in the background who's in one specific production on this day because someone was sick. And you'll have somebody who that becomes their favorite cat. And they start spinning out all their stories and lore about them. And I find that really fun.

[32:27] Mike Abrams: Yeah, I mean, a lot of this is that you see some one thing and then that becomes the theory behind something else. And it could just be one performance. You just caught the one character that made a decision. The actor made one decision on one day. That fan is a big fan, caught it, wrote about it. And then it was like, oh, well, that could mean this. That could mean this. So I think a lot of that spirals.

[32:52] Jen Anckorn: Yeah, and then other people latch onto it and it becomes true.

[32:55] Mike Abrams: It becomes part of it. And then now the actors play into it.

[32:58] Jen Anckorn: Exactly. Yeah, I love it. Let's do some rapid fire because I want to get to the last question because I know you have a very thoughtful answer. And I want to hear the full explanation of it.

[33:08] Mike Abrams: So first of all, if you were in the show, who would you want to perform as?

[33:12] Jen Anckorn: I mean, I ought to say MonkaStrap, but I like MonkaStrap. I want to be Tugger. And I know it's a boring answer because everyone wants to be Tugger. But I mean, he's a bisexual rock star with an amazing coat. So who would not want to be Tugger? It's fun because there's a lot of people where it's like, I want to do something that's totally not me. Or there's a lot of people that are just like, no, this is mine. I want to be this character because I think there's a lot of ways to answer that, which is what's fun.

[33:34] Mike Abrams: I think I know your answer for favorite cat, but I also want to hear your least favorite cat.

[33:40] Jen Anckorn: Well, my favorite is obviously Monk. I think he's fantastic. I think my least favorite is going to be controversial. It's Jenny, for my namesake. It's Jenny, I think, only for the reason that she gives off major if you've got time to lean, you've got time to clean vibes. I don't want a bossy cat sleeping all day, hypocritical, and then waking up and if I'm a mouse or a cockroach telling me I've got to be in a Beatles tattoo, I've got to learn to knit. I don't see them stopping her doing cat things, so I think she should just leave those beetles and mice alone to just enjoy being beetles and mice. I find her very bossy. And I know she's also MonkaStrap's choice, so it's like a double betrayal, but I don't like Jenny.

[34:30] Mike Abrams: Okay, I love it. Just, yeah, just too bossy. Just leave us alone. Let us live our lives.

[34:35] Jen Anckorn: Too bossy. I find during the sleep, sleep all night as well.

[34:39] Mike Abrams: What's your favorite song from the show?

[34:43] Jen Anckorn: The Moments of Happiness, I think. I mean, The Ball is fantastic. I love The Ball, but I think The Moments of Happiness because as a little kid who liked spooky things and as a weird sort of goth teenager, that song is so goth.

[34:57] Mike Abrams: Yeah, I love it. Which cat do you think would be the best artist? I know you do doll making and stuff like that. Which cat do you think would be best at that?

[35:08] Jen Anckorn: I think probably you can make an argument that Mr. Mistoffelees, his magic is kind of like an allegory for an artist. He's the quiet cat. He kind of keeps to himself. He never says anything, but occasionally he does something amazing. And that kind of like, it's kind of an allegory for any kind of artist to me. So I'd say Mistoffelees.

[35:32] Mike Abrams: Interesting. I was thinking purely doll making, and I went with your least favorite, Jenny, because I figure she's teaching everyone to crochet and do all this other stuff.

[35:36] Jen Anckorn: It probably is. But in my defense, my mom tried to teach me to knit like three times and I couldn't do it. That's part of it. That's part of your animosity towards Jenny. I think you're right. I think we figured it out.

[35:50] Mike Abrams: All right. I want to go to the most important question. You gave me a very – I'm assuming your answer is Grizabella is a joke of choice based on your answer. But you gave me a very thoughtful reason on how Old Deuteronomy makes the decision. So I'd love for you to explain where this comes from, how you kind of got to this point, and then I'm going to see if I can poke any holes into your argument, which I've thought about and it's hard because it's pretty sound.

[36:14] Jen Anckorn: Yeah. Well, I think Deuteronomy's criteria is something you talk about a lot, and I think possibly he has a different criteria every year. But the year that we're seeing, he kind of explains his criteria during The Moments of Happiness. He sort of sees Grizabella having her sad moment, singing Little Memory, and then he sits through the interval sort of receiving these thought beams from the moon. This is how I explain Cats to people when I'm trying to get them to watch it and why they never want to watch it. And then when we come back after intermission, he sings The Moments of Happiness. It's kind of his mission statement. And the lyric is, if you find the meaning of what happiness is, then a new life can begin.

So his criteria for this year is you have to look back into your memories and figure out the meaning of happiness, which is a really big ask. It's not great of Old Deuteronomy to set this up as the task of the year, but I think The Moments of Happiness is the key to understanding Cats. And it's tricky because the lyrics are very kind of opaque. They're sort of T.S. Eliot sort of going off on one of his T.S. Eliot sprees.

[37:25] Mike Abrams: So here's my question to this, because this happens when she comes back, right? Like that's where this comes. And I think to your point is he might have a different criteria every year. What is his criteria if she doesn't come back? I mean, maybe this is obviously a very hypothetical scenario in a show.

[37:46] Jen Anckorn: I think each generation of CATS fans has their own theories, and I think that's part of what makes the fandom so rich and interesting. I remember being a fan before the internet era, and it was a different experience. We had Live Journal, and that was where a lot of the modern theories started to take shape.

[38:16] Jen Anckorn: One of the theories that I hold dear is about the lyrics of "Moments of Happiness." I believe they are key to understanding Old Deuteronomy's decision at the Jellicle Ball. It’s a pivotal moment that really encapsulates the essence of the characters and their journeys.

[38:46] Jen Anckorn: When I think about Munkustrap, I truly believe he is the best character in the show. He has this incredible depth and complexity that often gets overlooked. His role as the protector and the one who guides the other cats is so crucial to the story.

[39:06] Jen Anckorn: Munkustrap embodies the qualities of leadership and loyalty, and I think that resonates with a lot of fans. He’s not just a background character; he has his own struggles and moments of vulnerability that make him relatable.

[39:26] Jen Anckorn: The way he interacts with the other characters, especially with the younger cats, shows his nurturing side. He’s like a big brother figure, and that adds another layer to his character that I find really compelling.

[39:46] Jen Anckorn: I also appreciate how Munkustrap is portrayed in different productions. Each interpretation brings something new to the table, and it’s fascinating to see how different actors bring their own flair to the role.

[40:14] Jen Anckorn: I think the fandom has evolved so much over the years, especially with the rise of social media. It’s amazing to see how fans connect and share their theories and artwork. It creates a sense of community that I really cherish.

[40:36] Jen Anckorn: Back in the day, we didn’t have that instant access to each other. We had to rely on forums and fan sites, which were great in their own right, but now it’s so much easier to find like-minded fans and share our love for CATS.

[41:06] Jen Anckorn: I remember the excitement when the movie trailer dropped in 2019. It reignited a lot of discussions and debates within the fandom. Everyone had their opinions, and it was a great time to be a CATS fan.

[41:26] Jen Anckorn: The movie brought a new generation of fans into the fold, and I think that’s really important. It’s crucial for the longevity of the show and its legacy. Each new fan brings their own perspective and theories, which keeps the conversation going.

[41:56] Jen Anckorn: I love how each character has their own backstory and motivations. It’s not just about the music and the dance; it’s about the emotional connections we make with these characters.

[42:24] Jen Anckorn: For me, Munkustrap stands out because he’s not just a hero; he’s flawed and real. He has moments of doubt and fear, which makes him relatable. I think that’s why he resonates with so many fans.

[42:50] Jen Anckorn: The way he supports his fellow cats, especially in tough situations, shows his strength. He’s a character that embodies resilience and compassion, and I think that’s something we can all aspire to.

[43:14] Jen Anckorn: I also think the visual representation of Munkustrap in different productions adds to his character. The costumes, the choreography, and the way he’s staged all contribute to how we perceive him.

[43:42] Jen Anckorn: It’s interesting to see how different directors interpret his role. Some may focus more on his leadership qualities, while others might highlight his emotional depth. It’s all about the vision they bring to the production.

[44:12] Jen Anckorn: I think that’s what makes CATS such a timeless piece. There’s always something new to discover, whether it’s through the music, the choreography, or the characters themselves.

[44:40] Jen Anckorn: Each time I watch or perform CATS, I find new layers to the story and the characters. It’s a testament to the writing and the creativity behind the show.

[45:08] Jen Anckorn: I also love how the community around CATS encourages creativity. Fans create art, write fan fiction, and even come up with their own theories, which keeps the spirit of the show alive.

[45:38] Jen Anckorn: It’s a beautiful cycle of inspiration that continues to grow. I think that’s what makes being a CATS fan so special; we’re all part of something bigger.

[46:06] Jen Anckorn: I hope that as new fans come in, they continue to explore and share their love for the show. There’s so much to discover, and I think it’s important to keep the conversation going.

[46:36] Jen Anckorn: Ultimately, CATS is about connection—between the characters and between the fans. It’s a shared experience that transcends generations, and I’m grateful to be a part of it.

[47:06] Jen Anckorn: I think the theories and discussions will continue to evolve as long as there are fans who are passionate about the show. It’s a living, breathing entity that adapts and grows with each new generation.

[47:34] Jen Anckorn: I’m excited to see where the fandom goes in the future. There’s so much potential for new interpretations and ideas, and I can’t wait to be a part of that journey.

[48:02] Jen Anckorn: Whether it’s through art, writing, or just sharing our thoughts, I think we all have a role to play in keeping the magic of CATS alive.

[48:30] Jen Anckorn: It’s a wonderful community, and I’m proud to be a part of it. Each fan brings their own unique perspective, and that diversity is what makes it so vibrant.

[48:56] Jen Anckorn: I encourage everyone to dive deep into the world of CATS and explore all the different facets of the show. There’s so much to uncover, and I think you’ll find it rewarding.

[49:24] Jen Anckorn: At the end of the day, it’s all about celebrating the art and the stories that connect us. CATS has a special place in my heart, and I know it does for many others as well.

[49:54] Jen Anckorn: I look forward to continuing these conversations and seeing how the fandom evolves. It’s an exciting time to be a CATS fan, and I can’t wait to see what the future holds.