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[0:00] Mike Abrams: Welcome to The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of the CATS Ashrafi. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and we are going back to The Vault. I was very fortunate last year in 2024 to be able to record a bunch of episodes with the creative team and the cast from the Perlman Performing Arts Center's production, CATS The Jellicle Ball, and I am thrilled that this production is going to be transferring to Broadway, and I'm very excited for what they're going to do at the Broadhurst Theater this upcoming March. So for the holiday season, for Thanksgiving and Christmas, I decided to release a couple of the episodes that we did during last year's run. This episode is with the legendary André De Shields.

I was very, very, very fortunate to be able to sit down with André at his stage, at his throne, at the PAC when we recorded this episode. We actually had it on video, which you can see, and you definitely should check it out. This was originally released on September 3rd, 2024. It was episode 184, and this is one of the most iconic human beings out there that was sharing how he thought about being Old Deuteronomy and a lot of really interesting backstories and ways that he approached the role. So this is arguably one of the most interesting episodes that we've ever had on the show, and I wanted to make sure that we re-released this during the holiday season. So enjoy this episode. There's a cat over here. There's a cat over there. And the wrong one died. And the wrong one died.

[1:37] Mike Abrams: Welcome to The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast to break down the cat's astrophe. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have an incredible episode. We are working with the Perelman Performing Arts Center reimagined production of Cats called Cats the Joke of All to bring you a series of episodes during the run. I had the privilege of heading to the PAC to film live after the show with Old Deuteronomy himself, the legendary Andre de Shields. What you're going to hear is our conversation after the Sunday matinee where we discuss everything about his time in the role and his incredible experience as Old Deuteronomy. So sit back and enjoy our conversation with Andre de Shields. Welcome to The Wrong Cat Died.

My name is Mike Abrams, your host, and I am here with Andre de Shields. Thank you so much for being here. It is amazing to have you here. I want to start at the beginning because you're a legend in Broadway and you've had a long career. You've been around to the point where I want to know how many times have you seen Cats before this production? What was your Cats history? Did you see Ken and see the original production?

[2:48] André De Shields: Of course I did. 1981, I think the date is. And Ken Page and I had worked together twice before, so we were used to supporting. Yes, The Wiz definitely. The Wiz ain't misbehaving. In 81, he created the role of Old Deuteronomy. The role you're playing now. And I certainly was impressed with the spectacle of Cats. I realized then that there really wasn't any significant storytelling that was being had outside of the personalities that were created for the Cats by T.S. Eliot. But still, it was diverting and it was entertaining, and it made $3 billion for Andrew Lloyd Webber. So in the industry, we called that a success. And I saw it several times after that because a few of my colleagues followed Ken into the role. Also, a very good friend of mine, Marlena Danielle, has the singular distinction of the one Cat that did all 18 years of its run on Broadway.

[4:29] Mike Abrams: As Demeter, I believe, right?

[4:31] André De Shields: As Demeter, yes.

[4:33] Mike Abrams: Okay. So you were obviously familiar.

[4:37] André De Shields: Absolutely.

[4:37] Mike Abrams: You knew everything. What was your thought when you first heard of this version's concept, of the ballroom interpretation of that? We're going to merge these two worlds of Cats, which has a long history, and ballroom, which also has a long history.

[4:53] André De Shields: This version of Cats is co-directed by Jaylon Levingston and Bill Rauch. They approached me in the winter of 23, when I was doing Death of a Salesman. And they said, we need you to do Old Deuteronomy Redux. When they explained to me the idea that they were superimposing on the score and the text that I was familiar with, I said yes immediately, although I was already doing eight shows a week. I said yes to doing the experimental contract in January, February of 23, because I knew immediately it had a pedigree. Their concept had a pedigree of being revolutionary. And I said then, and I say now, I want to be on the front edge of the revolution in entertainment. I don't want to be bringing up the rear.

I don't want to be half-stepping or back-stepping. So I committed to the experimental contract of two weeks, and I understood that there was a representative of the really useful group in the rehearsal hall, and that this representative would be taking information back to Andrew Lloyd Webber, and we had to wait for the thumbs up or the thumbs down. But we got the thumbs up on that first experimental contract. Now, that was the winter of January, February 23.

[6:40] Mike Abrams: Okay. So it's a full year.

[6:43] André De Shields: Yeah.

[6:44] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[6:45] André De Shields: In the fall of that same year, October, November, we did the developmental contract. Same process, same thumbs up. So then in May of this year, we're doing, and this is our third extension.

[7:03] Mike Abrams: Yes.

[7:04] André De Shields: The first equity union contract. Big jump.

[7:08] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[7:09] André De Shields: Of Cats the Jellicle Ball. I think I've answered your question.

[7:13] Mike Abrams: Yes. It's been amazing to watch this as someone who has spent so much time talking about cats, but to experience a different interpretation of it. And I think one thing, and I've heard you talk a little bit about this in interviews already, but I'd love to hear you expand on it, is the storytelling that you mentioned. By taking away the cat costumes, and by having it being a different interpretation, but still the same source material, still the same material. How has it been for you being able to do this production and being able to bring this new revival to a 45-year-old piece of art, but is one of the most popular things happening right now, that's a new vision of it?

[8:05] André De Shields: That's a question with a lot of gravitas. And I'm going to now begin to answer it, but you may have to tell me, okay, that's enough.

[8:08] Mike Abrams: Keep going. People want to hear from you.

[8:10] André De Shields: I'm glad to hear that. But to answer your question, I have to step out of the world of things that are literal and move into the world of abstract metaphor and the intersection of history and evolution. That's why this Cats is happening. It would have been impossible to have this point of view, this perspective in 1981. We had to wait for what is very rare, that an intergenerational group of individuals would be experiencing the same phenomenon, which I've already named as an intersection of history and evolution. What I'm saying is, the community, the multitude of voices that are represented in the Jellicle Ball had not formed as a community in 1981. The ball culture existed in 1981, but there had been no invitation to collaborate the ball culture with legacy theater.

I was about to say legitimate, but I'm not trying to call anything illegitimate, with legacy theater, knowing that that was the vectors of everything that was happening in the society. I know we are not supposed to get political, but I just want to say one thing so those individuals who are listening to us understand what I'm saying. Kamala Harris. This Cats is possible because history and evolution have now said, we're through with the patriarchy. We are now moving on, we are progressing to the matriarchy, which means necessarily womanhood and womanism and feminism. That frightens a lot of people, even in the industry that's known for its creativity and its innovation. We still have had those that pull a separation between that which is masculine and that which is feminine.

You can only do this version of Cats if you recognize the dichotomy in yourself. I'm going to reference T.S. Eliot now. I hope I'm quoting him correctly, but T.S. Eliot, who was born in America, but when you listen to his art, you think he is as British as Andrew Lloyd Webber. T.S. Eliot says, it is only those who risk going too far who know how far to go. And that is the credential of this concept, this performance, this show. Lots of entertainment, lots of entertainment, but a great deal of enlightenment. People have told me, but I'm also aware of it because I have the best perspective on this show. And let me say this as objectively as I can because it's reported to me. Andre, when Old Deuteronomy finally makes his appearance, I broke down crying and I cried through the rest of the show.

Still whacking the fans and screaming and yelling, right? But in addition to the entertainment is enlightenment. And I take my hat off to Dudney, who plays Monk of Strap, who is the storyteller. Now, what he is doing is a fine service to the audience because he is what we call a griot, G-R-I-O-T. Do you know that term?

[12:27] Mike Abrams: I do not.

[12:29] André De Shields: This is why I said your question was going to bring out the gravitas in you. Griot is a word borrowed from Francophone Africa, right? The African countries that speak French. Why do Africans speak French? Because of colonialism, right? But out of that cross section of cultures comes this term griot, which means gatekeeper, which means keeper of the faith, keeper of the history, keeper of the culture. A griot is a walking library, an individual who knows everything that there is to know about the culture, the nation, the globe, the universe, the cosmos, all relationships. And the griot also has a protégé to whom is passed all of that information because griots, like all humanity, pass on, but leave someone to continue the service of whatever question you have, I can answer it.

Daphne, telling the story in a fine manner, entertainment, enlightenment. Now, the third E that I want to talk about is ecstasy. And that's why people cry during this performance because they never suspect it. I mean, they know from the promotion and from the word of mouth, this is not your mother and father's cats. This is something else, which is why I call it a multitude of voices. This is the pluralism we talk about when we say democratic, multiculturalism, and that sort of thing. Now, the ecstasy comes when Deuteronomy is introduced. Monkey Strap is telling the story. Deuteronomy brings the myth onto the stage. This is why the Greeks, from whom we in the Western world say we borrowed our culture.

But this is why the Greeks built amphitheaters that would seat an entire nation state, 20,000 people, 40,000 people, because they believed, because no one had scaled Mount Olympus at the time, they believed that in that mist that bring the mountaintop live the gods. But they, with the proper ritual, would come down from the mountaintop, walk among us, and do the thing that we still come to the theater for. A theater is a temple, just like a Jewish temple, just like an Islamic mosque, just like a Christian church. This is the fourth institution where the five necessary questions are answered. You have to answer a question. You have to resolve a crisis. You have to lift a burden. You have to break a yoke, take that albatross off the neck of the people who have come for redemption.

That's why we come and sit in a dark place with strangers. It's a kind of atonement, right? So, that's what's happening on this runway, which leave people screaming at the top of their voices, gagging, as we say. I came out the other day, and in the ball culture, one of the grandest compliments one can receive is, you ate that bitch, which means that you brought it, right? Someone screamed that out to me when I entered the other night.

[16:45] Mike Abrams: Wow.

[16:46] André De Shields: Yeah, wow. There's no other forum that you can do that in.

[16:52] Mike Abrams: It's almost encouraged in this production. There's the announcement in the beginning.

[16:56] André De Shields: Let me put it this way. It's invited.

[16:58] Mike Abrams: Yes.

[16:58] André De Shields: Yeah. It's invited.

[17:01] Mike Abrams: It's so interesting to hear you talk about that from that perspective, because there's always been a conversation about the Jellicles being a religion or a group together.

[17:11] André De Shields: Well, okay. So, you've answered the question for yourself. We're going to take a quick break, and then we'll be back for more of The Wrong Cat Died.

[17:18] André De Shields: When I had to approach the recreation of Old Deuteronomy, and my hat is off to Ken Page, because the first thing I did was go to the original Broadway cast album and listen to him. And check it out, all of you who are listening. Old Deuteronomy, who is the DNA of every cat, sings three songs in the entire show. Now, that's the 1981 version. In the 2024 version, he sings the three songs, but he walks the runway also, which is a song unto itself. It reveals a lot about Old Deuteronomy that doesn't have to be sung or spoken. MonkaStrap is delivering the storytelling. Old Deuteronomy is bringing the myth. The three songs that Deuteronomy sings provide the philosophy of the Jellicle Ball, the metaphysics of the Jellicle Ball, and the aesthetics of the Jellicle Ball.

Now, you put that all together, you could have a religion, but we're not preaching religion here. But we do have a set of tenets. You see, MonkaStrap brained the tablets to Old Deuteronomy, and we do that deliberately so people think, oh, Moses, right? The Ten Commandments. Well, yeah, that's a great reference, but these are not the Ten Commandments. They are the ten tenets of addressing a cat, right?

[19:15] Mike Abrams: It's the moon too, right?

[19:17] André De Shields: Yeah, the Jellicle Moon. Right, the phases of the moon. Everything that we all know about and experience, but has never been brought together in this crucible so that it can be an ecumenical experience for 500 people.

[19:32] Mike Abrams: So it's so interesting to hear you talk about this because it is, for everyone who's seen it, they've gotten to experience that. And you're right, you sing your two songs, Moments of Happiness, Addressing the Cats, but you have your moment. And it is a moment where you come out, and I mean, the show stops. Everyone around here has that moment. And there's the Andre the Shield, so there's you coming out, but there's also Old Deuteronomy as the character that is here to start that process. And I think a part that I'm interested to hear you talk a little bit about is we're sitting here on, for anyone watching, but for everyone listening, we're sitting on your throne, which is the judging table as well for the ballroom moment.

And that's where we start when you come out, the categories and the competition. And so I'd love to hear, I know you have spoken a little bit about how you have been to balls in the past, but what your ballroom experience was, because your theater experience is well-documented, but this is, again, merging those cultures. And what I've loved as I've talked to more of the cast is your cast has a mix of representation of theater, of ballroom. You've got Junior LaBeija. I mean, you have incredible people, but I'd love to hear about your ballroom experience and how you were able to bring that to this production.

[21:00] André De Shields: To tell the truth, I don't have ballroom experience per se. I'm a septuagenarian. I've lived for 78 Earth years. Prior to ballroom, I was experiencing a phenomenon that, well, let me say three phenomenons that if you actually allow them to coalesce, you have the seed of ballroom. Phenomenon number one, the Jewel Box Review, which started here in New York as the ballroom culture did, as hip-hop did, as we allow the rappers to claim started here in New York. The Jewel Box Review was an entertainment that traveled on the Chitlin Circle. It wasn't quite considered legitimate, but if you knew about the Jewel Box Review and you had enough scratch, you could go to a theater in a mainly Latina, Latino, or African-American neighborhood and experience thrill to the art of transvestism.

Men who could fool your imagination into thinking that you are watching a show of all women. I experienced that at the Royal Theater in Baltimore as a child, actually, but there I was studying for this interview. You know what I mean? So that's phenomenon number one. Phenomenon number two, again, from the culture of people of color, rent parties. Now, if you know anything about jazz, you know about rent parties, and you know about the Harlem Renaissance, because when you could not afford to pay the rent, you would throw a party, and the host of the party would provide dinner, right? Fried chicken, mashed potatoes, potato salad, catfish, greens, Chitlins. So that's called the Chitlin Circle, right?

And then invite the neighborhood or the hood to come and have a good time. But you know I have to pay my rent. So when you arrive at the door, we measure your waste, and however big your waste is, that's what you pay to get into the rent party. Now, it wasn't done in dollars. It was thousand pennies, nickels, quarters, chains, that kind of thing. But it got the question answered. It got the problem solved. They got the crisis resolved. They took the albatross off the neck. The person wasn't evicted, and you had a great time. And some of the things that happened at these rent parties would blow your mind. There was always a back room at these rent parties where there was a specialist, not a chiropractor, not a physical therapist, but a specialist. And the concept is you could either shower or get so drunk or have someone pour some kind of liquid on you, go into this back room, lie on the table, and be licked dry.

[24:46] Mike Abrams: Wow. Wow. Wow. That's a challenge in the ball culture. We're not going to do that at the Perelman Performing Arts Center. Okay.

[24:52] André De Shields: Not, no back room. But you take all of those ingredients. And that's your ball culture. You got a ball culture. Yeah. Yeah.

[25:01] Mike Abrams: And so, you have that history and you're pairing it with people who are legends and icons in the ball scene. What was the process when those worlds merged? When you had your first readings or your first experiences that you were talking about?

[25:16] André De Shields: There has been a merging of the cultures, or at the very least a collaboration. It's been possible because on day one, and we continue this process, this ritual, on day one, we did an intimacy circle. And we went around the circle and each person introduced themselves and their pronouns and gave their perspective on what they hoped to bring to the collaboration and derive from the collaboration. It's a very intimate process because what you are doing metaphorically is getting naked in front of a group of strangers. But that's what you have to do if you're going to tell the truth of the ball culture, which is happening on this stage at the Perelman Performing Arts Center, but could not have been possible without the intersection of history and the culture that has been traditionally marginalized to the edges of society, who are the ones who can live, display, and tell this story.

This is authenticity on the stage. This isn't pretense. And you can only do this if you have struggled all of your existence to discover your best self. And your best self is always a spiritual journey. The audience that comes in here knows that's what they're going to get, which is why we have repeat audiences now.

[27:11] Mike Abrams: A lot.

[27:12] André De Shields: Yeah.

[27:13] Mike Abrams: Very much. We met somebody we heard that has been here 18 times, and you get a different experience each night. That's incredible.

[27:22] André De Shields: So actually it's credible. That word is overused so much. Incredible. That's almost obsolete. I know what people mean when they say, oh, that's incredible. But incredible means it's not to be believed. That's what incredible means.

[27:39] Mike Abrams: Very true.

[27:39] André De Shields: Right?

[27:40] Mike Abrams: Amazing.

[27:41] André De Shields: Well, that's a tight word.

[27:43] Mike Abrams: Exciting.

[27:44] André De Shields: That's a tight word too.

[27:45] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[27:47] André De Shields: And we're now making awesome a tight word. You offer somebody a piece of gum, they say, awesome, totally.

[27:54] Mike Abrams: What would be your word for this?

[27:57] André De Shields: It's a sentence. These are cosmic indicators to remind us that in our differences, we are all the same. When a meteor comes into Earth's atmosphere and burns up and leaves evidence in the Earth's soil, there's ammonia, there's gold, there's titanium, presence of water. We are made of gold, arsenic, ammonia, titanium. So what's the big deal? There's a big fire up there and it's dynamic and it's exploding all the time. We're the little version of the big fire. We are dynamic. We are changing. We are exploding all the time. Everything is changing. It's coalescing now. So you can actually witness the change happening intergenerationally, which is what I was talking about in the very beginning.

[28:57] Mike Abrams: Is that your biggest takeaway? What's the one thing, if somebody's walking into this show for the first time, what's the one thing you hope they take out of this production?

[29:06] André De Shields: All right. This is going to be circumspect, but I'll get to my point. I have to go back to how I approached creating this character and everything that I've already shared with you said to me, I mean, when I reached the amalgam, it said, you have to do what is done in the world of religion. When you read scripture, they call it exegesis. When you deconstruct the scripture of any religion, you are performing an exegesis. You are discovering the knowledge within the thought exegesis. So I said, oh, I have to turn this on its head and now create a scripture that the audience has to exegete. Now, ball culture is indigenous to the United States of America, but now it has a global existence. But in terms of exegeting this score and this T.S. Eliot book, what you have to concentrate on are the three major religions of the United Plantations of America.

Those three religions are Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. I'm not saying there aren't any other important religions, but I'm saying the three crowd pleasers are Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. So when Munkerstrap comes out with the other kittens and talks about what the Jellicles do once a year, that's the first ritual he mentions. But it's the entire culture from around the world that meets once a year under the Jellicle moon, on the Jellicle night, to have a Jellicle ball, to choose the one chosen Jellicle cat who will go to the heavy side later. So I had to ask myself, what is that? What is it? What's the Jellicle choice? None of what I just described. I mean, I'm not trying to test you, but I'm saying to myself, what I just described to myself, what is that?

It's a Hajj. That's what Muslims do once a year from all over the world. They go to Mecca. So I had my first tenant. This is a Hajj, the Jellicle ball. Jellicle cats from all over the world come this one day of the year for atonement purposes. So I said, okay, I got my Islam. Now the story continues. I'm trying to understand Deuteronomy's relationship to all the other cats. Now, part of the storytelling that we have superimposed on the original cats is this idea that Macavity is a kind of Robin Hood because the people in the ball culture don't have the money to afford, as Demeter says, Louis Vuitton, Prada. The ball culture doesn't have that kind of money. But when you see them on the runway, you think, okay, bitch, where'd you get that?

You know? Now, wait a minute. It happens in the legitimate world too. People who do concerts, for instance, they go to the designers or to their retail outlets, and they say, oh, I love that. I love that gown. Right? And they get the gown, leave the label in it. They wear it for their concert, return it, and say, oh, you know, it really doesn't fit. You know? Well, you can't. There's the label. Yeah. I didn't take the label off. Here's my receipt. You have to take this back. It's the categories. That's the label's category.

[33:24] André De Shields: Right.

[33:24] Mike Abrams: We're going to take a quick break, and then we'll be back for more of The Wrong Cat Died.

[33:28] André De Shields: So, McCavity is the kind of Robin Hood. He's doing exactly that, bringing all the haute couture fashion to the ball culture. And they are happy to receive it. But here's the rule. You cannot get caught doing it. Right? Yeah. Because then you have to answer to the secular law, which says, you are a criminal, and we're going to take you to jail. And since you're queer, we're going to beat you on the way to jail and not have to explain anything. So, McCavity becomes Deuteronomy's, you want to take a guess?

[34:16] Mike Abrams: I'm trying to think now.

[34:16] André De Shields: McCavity becomes Deuteronomy's Judas.

[34:20] Mike Abrams: Okay.

[34:20] André De Shields: And in the scene where Deuteronomy is arrested, and there's no dialogue, right? But the story is, McCavity, you've been caught. Yeah. You are rebellious. You've gone against our law. And I know you, and I know this is what could happen eventually. And now I have to do the right thing and banish you. Right?

[34:46] Mike Abrams: Mm-hmm. That's Christianity.

[34:49] André De Shields: Now, you don't have to go and hang yourself from an olive tree as Judas was reported to have done, but you can't stay here any longer. Okay. So, that covers two.

[35:01] Mike Abrams: Thank you. Now, I'm thinking about how Christianity has attached itself to Judaism by writing a New Testament. Judaism doesn't have an Old Testament. Judaism has the holy scriptures, and Judaism has an intellectual lean that the other two disciplines, I won't say they lack it, but it's not being on the menu. Okay.

[35:34] André De Shields: With Judaism, you are invited to be skeptical, question law, and by questioning the law, you make it even more true. When I had those three revelations, I said to myself, and having been listening to Ken Page, I said, I know how to recreate Deuteronomy.

[35:58] Mike Abrams: It's incredible to hear the thought process behind that. I've spent so much of my show and talking to people from all the different casts, thinking through plot and story.

[36:08] André De Shields: Right.

[36:08] Mike Abrams: And this is different. And so, it's been so fun to see how this is a reinterpretation, and I've loved, I've kind of told a lot of the cats haters, you know, the ones that have for years—

[36:19] André De Shields: Are there cat haters?

[36:20] Mike Abrams: Not of this show, but of the 80s version.

[36:23] André De Shields: Oh, right, right, right. It became a fad.

[36:26] Mike Abrams: And everyone that's come to this production has loved it. And it's the storytelling. It's the clear storytelling that you've added and cleared up in some cases. And I think, by not being in a cat costume and the amazing—

[36:41] André De Shields: No whiskers, no fur, no tails. But it's also Greek in the sense that we are the gods. And we have come down this one night to demonstrate for you what the journey is, what the purpose of this life of gravity on the earth plane is about.

[37:03] Mike Abrams: So, now I'm going to ask you the most important question. In my opinion, what my show has been centered around, is I'd argued, and not from this production, but just in general, that I didn't think Isabella was the correct Jellicle choice. And so, I want to ask you—

[37:19] André De Shields: No, wait a minute. You have to give me the reason you don't think that.

[37:22] Mike Abrams: Well, it depends on how you interpret. So, I want to ask you a question first, and then I'm happy to give you my reason. But as all do around me, I want to know, what is the criteria to be the Jellicle choice?

[37:33] André De Shields: No, no, no, no, no. No, no, no. I'm not a fool. I'm not a fool. You don't think Isabella is the correct choice. Why do you think that?

[37:43] Mike Abrams: I'm happy to give my—

[37:44] André De Shields: So, come on with it.

[37:46] Mike Abrams: So, I believe, depends on what your interpretation of the heavyside layer is. And my interpretation was that it was being sacrificed. It was death. And to have a Grisabella come back and have this family redemption, and be accepted in that moment, and then to immediately banish her. Now, in the sense of that she's not ready, that she doesn't have a life to live. I want her to stay one year. I want her to be next year's Jellicle choice. I want her to have one year with her family, and I want Gus to go, who's lived a very thoughtful life, has done their time, and they can go this year. So, that's my argument.

[38:24] André De Shields: Well, if this were Jeopardy, the buzzer would go, wrong answer.

[38:28] Mike Abrams: Okay.

[38:30] André De Shields: Let's go to the end of the play first. When Grisabella ascends to the heavyside layer, what is the infrastructure she uses?

[38:43] Mike Abrams: In this show? The stairs.

[38:46] André De Shields: We've got the stairs. We've got a staircase, right? A ladder. A ladder.

[38:50] Mike Abrams: Come on, help. You better talk to your producer. A ladder? Stairs?

[38:56] André De Shields: Where does it take place?

[38:57] Mike Abrams: Takes place at the—

[38:58] André De Shields: In New York.

[38:59] Mike Abrams: In New York.

[39:00] André De Shields: So, what is that?

[39:01] Mike Abrams: That is a fire escape.

[39:03] André De Shields: Fire escape.

[39:03] Mike Abrams: Okay. Fire escape.

[39:05] André De Shields: Right. I mean, that's—

[39:07] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[39:08] André De Shields: That's not a puny idea that it is a fire escape, and that it is on the outside of a building, an old building, and that when she walks through the door of the fire escape, what do you hear?

[39:24] Mike Abrams: You hear New York noise.

[39:25] André De Shields: The sounds of New York. Right. So, the heavyside layer is not death.

[39:31] Mike Abrams: This production, I think, has ruined my argument.

[39:35] André De Shields: Okay. Well, I'm going to ruin it even more. The heavyside layer is not death. You know how we say cats have nine lives? The heavyside layer is a tenth life.

[39:45] Mike Abrams: Okay. So, does she not come back to this ball, to this family?

[39:50] André De Shields: Oh, yeah. She has been received again by the family. She is atoned. She is redeemed. She is loved. She is beautiful again, but she never lost her beauty. She never lost her beauty. What did she lose?

[40:07] Mike Abrams: She lost her family.

[40:09] André De Shields: No, she didn't. She almost was exiled, it seemed like.

[40:13] Mike Abrams: No, she wasn't exiled.

[40:14] André De Shields: No?

[40:15] Mike Abrams: No, no, no. She wasn't exiled, and she didn't lose the family.

[40:20] André De Shields: There's a little bit of loss of confidence.

[40:21] Mike Abrams: Ha! Thank you. Yeah, I mean, that's what it is. This is Andre De Shields, not T.S. Eliot. You cannot give your heart or your love to someone else if you haven't first given your heart and your love to yourself.

[40:40] Mike Abrams: I agree completely.

[40:41] André De Shields: Right. Now, the theater cat, Gus, agrees with you. He thinks he deserves to go to the heavyside layer.

[40:50] Mike Abrams: And why not?

[40:52] André De Shields: Each of the people, individuals who walk the runway, is vying for the opportunity to go to the heavyside layer. But, remember the five questions that we have to answer? Who, what, where, when, why? What is the lesson that's going to be learned if Gus goes to the heavyside layer? Or any of the other kittens go to the heavyside layer? What is the lesson that's going to be learned?

[41:12] Mike Abrams: There's less of one than the redemption.

[41:20] André De Shields: Right. So, the most cogent and comprehensive lesson, and the greatest amount of exegesis you can receive from this experience, is if Grisabella goes to the heavyside layer.

[41:38] Mike Abrams: Because Grisabella is a woman.

[41:42] André De Shields: So, what do I mean?

[41:43] Mike Abrams: We've got a follow-up question for you after, but go ahead.

[41:45] André De Shields: What do I mean when I say Grisabella is a woman? By the masculine perspective that has ruled the modern world for as long as anyone can remember. And in a similar category as people of color, women are the scourge of the earth. Essentially, because they're not men. But they are excoriated. They're punished, having committed no crime. They are not allowed to be liberated individuals. So, what we are doing here is reminding everyone who comes into this forum that the paradigm that is staring at us from the horizon is represented in this play by felinity, which is the surrogate for femininity. That's why we have to choose Grisabella, and why the sacrifice is Deuteronomy.

[42:51] Mike Abrams: So, I'm going to go back to my first question I asked you about this.

[42:54] André De Shields: Do you understand what I'm saying?

[42:55] Mike Abrams: I do.

[42:55] André De Shields: The sacrifice is Deuteronomy?

[42:57] Mike Abrams: Meaning, so...

[42:58] André De Shields: He's the one who's arrested. He's the one who's taken to jail.

[43:02] Mike Abrams: Right.

[43:03] André De Shields: So, yeah, from the, okay, from the Maccabi part. But I'm going to go back to the first question of the criteria. So, you said the idea is it's a lesson. It's the ability to teach the audience and the jellicles and everybody at the ball this lesson.

[43:20] Mike Abrams: Yeah. The audience learns through the jellicles.

[43:24] André De Shields: Right.

[43:25] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Next year's ball. Is there another lesson that has to be learned? Is this an annual thing?

[43:31] André De Shields: Well, the ball is annual. We got through that. But lessons are endless. That's what life is about. So, Grizabella goes this year. Who goes next year?

[43:40] André De Shields: We don't know. We have to wait until we have a ball.

[43:43] Mike Abrams: We got to have everyone.

[43:44] André De Shields: Yeah.

[43:45] Mike Abrams: Because that's where I go back to criteria. Is it different every year? Is it the same every year? Is it a lesson this year? And it could be who had the best dance move next year?

[43:55] André De Shields: Yeah. But you never win the journey to... I was about to say Hades. But there's a similar lesson here.

[44:07] Mike Abrams: Yeah, a lot.

[44:07] André De Shields: You don't get chosen for the journey to the heavy side layer because you have danced the best or looked the best. It's because you deserve the lesson. You need the lesson. Now, since I stumbled onto Hadestown, let me use it as a comparison.

[44:27] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[44:27] André De Shields: The lesson in Hadestown is don't look back. Now, that isn't absolutely physical. You have to look back. Because if you don't look over your shoulder, if you don't know where you've been, you can't know where you're headed. But don't look back is don't let doubt deceive you. Know that you are enough. Know that you are worthy. Know that you deserve life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. So, perhaps next year's lesson is don't mistake a bruised ego for a broken heart, which we do all the time. Canceling people, ghosting people, divorcing people, dropping your love. What?

[45:21] Mike Abrams: Yeah. This is the most passionate defense of Grisbell I've had so far.

[45:26] André De Shields: Right.

[45:27] Mike Abrams: And I've had 180 plus episodes of trying to convince the world. Now, I do think, again, your production is so different and it doesn't feel like the 10th life of a cat. It feels like a continuation of going back into the world, be brought back to society. It feels much more of the story is being told there, which I've kind of joked has been harder for me to argue, versus the tire that everyone goes up on at the Winter Garden Theater.

[45:58] André De Shields: Yeah.

[45:58] Mike Abrams: But it's fun to hear the different perspectives.

[46:00] André De Shields: Are you asking me a question?

[46:02] Mike Abrams: No, no. I've found it's so interesting to hear how you're talking through it.

[46:07] André De Shields: Well, at the risk of sounding dismissive, and that is not what I'm trying to do here, but think of the metaphorical image of the tire.

[46:18] Mike Abrams: What about it?

[46:20] André De Shields: What does it say to you? All cats are feral?

[46:23] Mike Abrams: It's the junkyard. It's just junk.

[46:25] André De Shields: Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Feral. And it's getting raised up to the, past the hotel, past the Russell Hotel, to where?

[46:34] Mike Abrams: I can't defend 1981's cats.

[46:38] André De Shields: That's most of where my show has come from though, before this production.

[46:41] Mike Abrams: Yeah, but what I'm saying is, I cannot defend it. Not because I wouldn't want to, but there's nothing there to exegete. That's what I'm saying. I had to create the ethos so that I can make sense of what I'm being asked to do. That's why I can talk to you like this. Otherwise it would be, I don't know. You have to ask Andrew Lloyd Webb. No, ask me. I created this Deuteronomy.

[47:06] Mike Abrams: Yeah. And it's amazing. And it's an incredible thing to watch.

[47:14] André De Shields: But what I'm saying is, what else is there to do when the paradigm looking at us, inviting us to come to the future, lays down those laws. Drop your biases, drop your proclivities, drop your predispositions. Don't hate. The lesson is, give your heart and your love to yourself first. Then you're ready for the multitude of voices. Then you're ready for pluralism. Then you're ready for the people who don't look anything like you. But you know, you don't, ah, who am I quoting now? Do not curse the darkness, light a candle. I know that's somebody's, I didn't, that's not true. I'm quoting somebody.

[48:10] Mike Abrams: Don't know who that is. This has been so fun to talk to you and hear how you created this and the vision that you've put together with an incredible group of people.

[48:22] André De Shields: Stop using that term incredible.

[48:24] Mike Abrams: You're going to, I'm going to have to stop.

[48:25] André De Shields: Phenomenal group.

[48:27] Mike Abrams: Phenomenal group of people.

[48:28] André De Shields: Right.

[48:29] Mike Abrams: I'm going to have to break that habit.

[48:30] André De Shields: Yeah.

[48:31] Mike Abrams: It's very much a habit.

[48:32] André De Shields: Don't you hear it all the time?

[48:33] Mike Abrams: I do. Yeah. It's all the time.

[48:35] André De Shields: All the time. Oh, you're incredible. That's incredible. No, stop. What you mean is you're incredulous. I can't believe I'm in the same realm with this phenomenon.

[48:49] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[48:49] André De Shields: I know what you mean, but increase your active vocabulary.

[48:54] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[48:55] André De Shields: Learn cursive handwriting again. People are shocked when I autographed their playbills. They actually say, I can read your handwriting. Of course you can read my handwriting. That's not taught anymore, but it's been so fun to have you on and hear.

[49:13] Mike Abrams: I see you trying to get to the end of it.

[49:14] André De Shields: You got more? What else do you want to share?

[49:18] André De Shields: You have to tell them to stop.

[49:20] Mike Abrams: No, it's been so fun to hear your perspective on this.

[49:24] André De Shields: Right.

[49:24] Mike Abrams: And we're almost at the end of this journey.

[49:28] André De Shields: There's another word that if we don't increase our active vocabulary, it's going to quickly become cliche. Perspective. I still use it myself, but what we all need to invent for ourselves, create for ourselves, nourish for ourselves is purpose. You have to have a reason to get up every morning because you all get up with, if not the same, a similar default consciousness, which is why most of the world when they get up reaches for coffee. That's the first way we change our default consciousness. Now I'm going to go to somewhere you may not want on your podcast, but I'm not going to belabor it. I'm just going to make the statement. Your default consciousness, if you apply the correct stimulation often enough, and it may not be coffee, will ultimately result in being, are you all listening? Woke.

[50:43] Mike Abrams: I'm done.

[50:51] André De Shields: This is so fun. Thank you so much.

[50:54] Mike Abrams: Thank you for listening to this episode of The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown the cat's astrophe. To follow along, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or any of us listed podcasts. Follow us on Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, and threads at thewrongcatdied or check out our website, thewrongcatdied.com.