This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Ebony Vines: Welcome to Theatre Geeks Anonymous, the podcast about Broadway flops, scandals, and new work.

[0:08] Pamela Shandrow: I'm your host, Pamela Shandrow.

[0:10] Ebony Vines: And I'm your host, Ebony Vines. Don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe to the Theatre Geeks Anonymous Podcast on the Broadway Podcast Network and all your favorite podcast listening apps.

[0:23] Thank you.

[0:26] Sammy Kennell: This is Sammy Kennell, and I'm Dory Berenstein.

[0:30] Dory Berenstein: And you're listening to Theatre Geeks Anonymous.

[0:34] Ebony Vines: All right, well, here we go.

[0:36] Pamela Shandrow: Here we go.

[0:37] Sammy Kennell: Oh, oh, oh, that's my cue.

[0:39] Pamela Shandrow: Well, um, what's up, Theatre Geeks?

[0:43] Dory Berenstein: What is up?

[0:46] Sammy Kennell: Oh.

[0:46] Pamela Shandrow: I hope you all actually answer us back when we do that.

[0:50] Dory Berenstein: I hope you do.

[0:51] Sammy Kennell: We have a lot of room that time.

[0:53] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah.

[0:55] Pamela Shandrow: I think, well, okay, we're gonna get a little bit serious just for a second.

[1:00] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[1:01] Pamela Shandrow: And forgive me because I will start crying.

[1:04] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[1:04] Pamela Shandrow: Um, a couple of episodes ago, I think I mentioned that I had gotten a new dog.

[1:09] Sammy Kennell: Cop squeaked.

[1:10] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah. And that was four weeks ago. I lost him tragically last night.

[1:15] Ebony Vines: Well, I'm sorry.

[1:16] Pamela Shandrow: It's okay.

[1:18] Ebony Vines: So sorry.

[1:19] Pamela Shandrow: This has been a really rough day. So I am not going to be a part of this interview today because I can't guarantee that I'm not just gonna start bawling at any second. But I did want to be a part of this intro because it is exciting that we're talking to these two women today.

[1:34] Dory Berenstein: Yeah.

[1:36] Pamela Shandrow: Interview about a new work and also kind of about old works.

[1:40] Ebony Vines: Um, no.

[1:44] Pamela Shandrow: Um exciting. So I just wanted to like put that out there for everybody. I know that I'm getting tons of support from the people that I know in real life and in the people that are listening to our podcasts that support us. I know that I'm feeling support from you guys too. So, but I just wanted to get that out there. As I'm currently holding another support puppy.

[2:10] Pamela Shandrow: Anyway, but yes, but uh Ebony, I'm gonna pass it on to you and I'm gonna bow out. But ladies, it was such a pleasure chatting with you for even just a few minutes.

[2:20] Dory Berenstein: And so sorry.

[2:22] Sammy Kennell: And oh no, thank you.

[2:23] Dory Berenstein: Thank you.

[2:24] Sammy Kennell: I appreciate that. Um we haven't mentioned anything.

[2:27] Ebony Vines: Ebony will mention it right now.

[2:29] Sammy Kennell: Yeah. I did watch the uh documentary that you guys produced and directed called The Show Must Go On.

[2:36] Dory Berenstein: Yeah.

[2:36] Sammy Kennell: Available on Apple TV. I rented it because it was definitely worth every penny that I bought it for. Um it's a very good documentary following Phantom and Cats in Asia during the height of the pandemic. It's just and it was really astounding to watch. So thank you so much for that. And I'm gonna head out now. Thank you so much, everybody. Enjoy the show.

[3:05] Ebony Vines: Well, uh Sammy and Dory, if first you two would start by just introducing yourselves and what you did on the project, please.

[3:15] Sammy Kennell: Uh so I'm I'm Sammy Cannold. I'm uh uh theater and film uh director. Uh and on this particular project, I um uh co-directed and uh co-produced. Uh and very excited to be here today. Very sorry um for for Pamela and um um but looking forward to the conversation.

[3:37] Dory Berenstein: Yeah. Very excited to to speak with you.

[3:42] Dory Berenstein: Well, I'm a big theater geek, Anonymous fan, of course. And Ebony, a giant fan of yours. I uh I on this on this wonderful uh uh adventure, this this project, um I was basically Sammy's second uh and producer. And um uh and when uh you know when I'm not uh involved in documentary films, I'm uh Broadway producer and uh and uh in the podcast world. I mean, if anybody is listening to this podcast on the Broadway Podcast Network app, then you should know that like Dory is our big cheese. If you don't know that, then I don't know what to tell you, but figure it out.

[4:34] Sammy Kennell: Um I'm so excited. So I was telling Sammy uh Dory before you popped on that I watched this last night with my roommate who's a former actor, and she was just weeping. We just found the story so moving. You know, when you when you have those uh first shots, those first like drone shots of just like the empty streets on March 13th, 2020. And I mean, you're just immediately sort of catapulted back to that moment of when things began to shut down. Um and then throughout the course of the documentary, I was like, how did they even do this? Because it feels like, and please correct me if I'm wrong, it feels like one of the first like films that was made during the pandemic. Am I wrong?

[5:26] Dory Berenstein: So yeah, yeah, no, we, you know, it was um uh the world had shut down, you know, nothing was going on and and our industry was completely decimated. And um Sammy, you know, had the idea to when and she'll take you through it when she heard that that theater was still alive somewhere in the world, um, that we capture this uh, you know, incredible effort by people all around the world who came to keep theater alive. Um and it happened to be Korea and it happened to be Cats and Phantom. But Sammy, why don't you uh explain what happened?

[6:05] Sammy Kennell: Sure. So um, you know, uh early on in in the pandemic, um I was uh alone in my apartment as many people were, um, and uh sort of contemplating, you know, what what was gonna happen to all of us who uh not only um our lives revolved around the theater, but our our um our ability to sustain ourselves revolves around the theater, right? Um and um and I was uh on FaceTime with my friend Kristen, um who uh is the musical supervisor of the world tour of the Phantom of the Opera and also supervises a lot of uh tours of Cats, among other um Angeloid Weber shows. And uh you I I was we were FaceTiming June of 2020, and she said, you know, uh actually in a few weeks I'm I'm leaving uh the US to go uh to South Korea to um musical supervise a uh tour of Cats in South Korea.

And I was just dumbfounded because at the time nobody was going anywhere, let alone going to South Korea, let alone you know, making a musical. Um, and so uh I basically said, uh, can I come? Um and then uh also said, you know, is anyone documenting this? Because it feels like if there is somewhere in the world that is keeping theater alive successfully, the rest of us have a lot to learn from from that place. Right. Um, and I had heard that, you know, uh Phantom of the Opera had basically survived the pandemic in South Korea. There was a big New York Times story on it, and um, so sort of thought, oh, these two shows are by the same composer. Um, you know, I was uh I'm lucky enough to to know him.

I wrote and said, you know, hey, is anybody documenting uh the success of these shows as well as you know what you uh personally, Andrew Lloyd Webber are doing to um you know, champion the return of of live theater? Uh and he said, you know, no, nobody's doing it yet. Um, but please please do it. And um I approached my mom, because I'd never um made a documentary before, but she's made six and won some nice awards for them. And uh and I said, you know, hey, um, do you want to be my partner on this? Because I can, you know, I know the shows, I know the people, um, but I don't know how to make a film. But if we partnered, you know, then um maybe there's a way to do this. And uh that that's you know where everything sort of got started.

[8:29] Dory Berenstein: How did you get like the footage and all of that? Were was that um sourced from uh social media and things for the different actors? And when they were like, how did you all how did you do that?

[8:41] Sammy Kennell: Sammy got on a plane and she went to Korea in July of 2020. And you remember we were still bunk, you know, hunkered down in in our homes, not even, you know, going outside. So and she went off to Korea. So kind of as the mom, I was freaking out as as her partner. I was very, very thrilled that she was on our way to Korea. And um I I there was a lot we were also capturing here. And uh and there was a lot of producing responsibilities that that uh I I inherited and and took that on. But Sammy uh was off uh on the ground in Korea and all the footage that you see um uh she shot with um uh another uh director of photography with the director of photography that I had been working with on a previous project uh in Seoul Korea and um and and Sammy went through the whole experience of being in Korea during COVID, and you can talk about quarantine and the whole thing that you went through because what you see the actors going through in the film, Sammy went through that as well.

[9:48] Sammy Kennell: Right. That was gonna be my next question. The protocols and like what were there differences in the protocols between what the theater was doing and what those productions were doing, and then what you all were doing as a documentary team?

[10:02] Sammy Kennell: Um, not really. We really followed much of the same um procedures that the companies followed. The only thing was we we would sometimes be with the Cats company, we would sometimes be with the Phantom Company, and the the shows are really quite bubbled. Um and so when we would switch between companies, there was sort of a procedure where we had to make sure that we weren't uh if there were to be an outbreak in in Cat, like in the Cats company, that we wouldn't be bringing it over to Phantom because those two companies were were were kept separate. But um, you know, uh the the other thing because we couldn't sort of be in uh every place at once, was that, you know, of course, our director of photography who who my mom just mentioned and I we shot the majority of footage that ended up in the film but we also sort of deputized all the actors and all the company members to take their own iPhone footage if they were willing particularly when they were in quarantine because we couldn't be in quarantine with them as much as we wanted to you know document that the whole point of quarantine is that of course um and so uh we we sort of gave them instructions on okay you know um film these video diaries of yourself talking if you're exercising in the room film yourself exercising um film the view out your window you know we and so we asked for all that and we were so fortunate that so many of the company members um were eager to you know participate in that way and um so you know it the the the making the film was a team effort much like you know keeping the shows alive was a and they also were so kind to you know because obviously we were not with them uh because they came from all over the world when they traveled to Korea to put on the show the shows um they were coming from South Africa and the Philippines and Australia and the UK and the United States and other places and so they were all coming to Seoul at the same time so they were kind enough um to also capture their in route you know um which was great footage for us.

[12:13] Dory Berenstein: I'm also curious so like from the the beginning when you first spoke to her until the end when the the documentary was completed, how long was that period of time?

[12:25] Sammy Kennell: Um probably nine months. Um and the you know it the the really crazy period was um from when I from the day I talked to Kristen and we had that idea th three weeks later I was on a plane to Korea.

[12:45] Dory Berenstein: Wow.

[12:46] Sammy Kennell: And so the work that was done in those three weeks to um get everything in place to make the film was wild. And it was we were just so grateful for um the cooperation and and excitement and eagerness of um all the necessary partners. Um, you know, GWB Entertainment, Es and Co. Uh Troika, like all these these folks who have um stake in the Phantom of the Opera and Cats, who said, yes, we will give you access. You know, we're happy to have you with us, um, in addition to Andrew Lloyd Webber and his company. But in addition to that, you know, it it cost money to make a film. Right. Um, we were very fortunate to have um two executive producers um who came on board and made it possible, um, Liz Armstrong and uh WYSIWYG Studios, which is a Korean-based uh media company. Um, and uh, you know, both were just extraordinary and said, yes, this has to be done. And and you know, we don't we don't have time to sit and think about it. We just are gonna say.

[13:50] Dory Berenstein: Right, right. Yeah, like, you know, who knew we didn't know how long it would last, right? We kept thinking it'll just be a few months, then it was like a few more months, then if you and then here, you know, then it's like October 2021 when things are reopening here, even in in in the US.

[14:07] Sammy Kennell: And I was so um, I was actually talking to a friend today about the documentary, and I was talking about specifically like Andrew Lloyd Webber, uh, his interview where he's talking about like why can't we do this here or in the Western countries? And here we are two years later, and I still like it's like it feels like it's never ending with us.

[14:34] Dory Berenstein: Yeah, yeah. Um I'm I'm interested to know, like, because you were there on the ground, like what are some of your your takeaways?

[14:43] Sammy Kennell: What are the things that give you hope? But what are the things that you're like, why can't we get this together over here?

[14:52] Dory Berenstein: Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest finding to come out of Korea, you know, the entire pandemic was um in the first year and a half from the onset of the pandemic, uh, there were zero incidents of audience-to-audience transmission.

[15:06] Sammy Kennell: Right.

[15:07] Dory Berenstein: So um, you know, uh there were multiple cases of people coming to the theater with COVID, obviously not knowing that they had COVID, but retroactively, you know, the CDC Korean CDC would discover that they had COVID.

[15:20] Dory Berenstein: Um, and then not spreading it to anybody sitting around them. Um, and what that tells us is that the protocol worked. And um then that protocol ended up sort of being the basis of what uh the West End used, because Andrew was sort of observing what you know his productions were doing uh in Korea using that protocol on the West End.

[15:45] Dory Berenstein: And then we here in you know in New York and around the US were watching the West End watch in Korea. We adopted that protocol, and you know, obviously we're still struggling a lot right now. You know, every theater industry around the world is struggling, I think. But I think that we owe a lot to Korea, you know, the in in the fact that we're on our feet at all is I think um in large part credit to to the example that they set.

[16:12] Dory Berenstein: And um it was amazing to sort of be there to to witness that.

[16:16] Sammy Kennell: Yeah, and I think I think it was also the protocol backstage, which they instituted with the with all the testing. But you know, it's a different kind of culture because it's it's a culture that is very focused on the we and wanting to keep their fellow uh citizens safe.

[16:35] Sammy Kennell: And so if mask wearing is gonna help do that, they're gonna wear masks.

[16:40] Dory Berenstein: Yeah, you know, and and this was way before vaccines, you know, so it it's obviously it hasn't been as easy here to get, you know, to during the whole pandemic to have people wear masks and protect each other.

[16:56] Dory Berenstein: Um so it was I think one of the reasons they they uh glided through more successfully is because it was a uh a society that was much more um careful about protecting everyone around them.

[17:10] Sammy Kennell: Right, right.

[17:11] Dory Berenstein: Yeah, yeah, that I I remember one of the women on the the creative team saying that the the we culture, and I uh my friends and I throughout the last couple of years have talked about that as well.

[17:24] Dory Berenstein: You know, that just their culture is so much more collectively about the other, and how do we protect each other and how do we make sure that we are all okay? Um and yeah, I it's beautiful.

[17:41] Sammy Kennell: I wish I wish we could do that here.

[17:45] Dory Berenstein: Yeah.

[17:47] Sammy Kennell: We're with you.

[17:49] Dory Berenstein: Yeah.

[17:51] Pamela Shandrow: Um I so Sammy, I didn't you also do a live production at some point. Is that am I wrong?

[18:00] Sammy Kennell: I uh I started directing, you know, workshops and things in in the fall. Um, but I I uh mostly was was sort of became uh a filmmaker briefly and then went back to theater.

[18:18] Sammy Kennell: Um uh but you know, now now sort of do both. But um uh after I was in Korea, I went to London for for three months and I um we shot some footage there with with Hamila Weber and some other folks, and then um I came back to the States.

[18:32] Sammy Kennell: But much like other other theater directors, my my productions were all sort of shelved.

[18:40] Pamela Shandrow: I'm curious what it was like for the two of you to work together on this for for this Sammy being your first documentary and this being your mom's sixth one, but I'm curious like what that learning curve was like, how it was, you know, the dynamics, like that's all because I I my mother's passed on, but um I just adored her. She was like my best friend.

[19:09] Dory Berenstein: Well, I had I, you know, I I don't think that had I partnered with just about anybody else on the planet that I would have been completely comfortable being rather type A.

[19:22] Dory Berenstein: Um, that uh the film was in the other person's hands for a good part of the, you know, for capturing the real core of the film. I mean, there was so much I could do around it, but you know, Sammy was on the ground and I had really, and this has nothing to do with the fact that we happened to be related.

[19:42] Dory Berenstein: I had complete confidence that that she get it and figure it out. And she also had such great relationships with the company and the uh the uh production company and and all the key people involved.

[19:57] Dory Berenstein: I I I knew she'd do it beautifully. So um uh that it was a for me, it was um you know, to have that kind of uh partnership where I had such comfort and confidence in in my partner is uh I think a very unusual thing.

[20:19] Sammy Kennell: Yeah, I mean, I I I um my experience was so much about just feeling very fortunate that I had a partner who um was so experienced and um knew the world in a way that I I didn't, you know.

[20:35] Sammy Kennell: I think in any other circumstance I would have had to go take classes or like you know, uh apprentice on a film first or something, and and um particularly because she was my mom, I it was easy to just be like, I actually don't know how to do this thing. Can you show me what what what this thing is?

[20:53] Sammy Kennell: And and I wasn't sort of embarrassed to ask because she knew that I didn't know.

[20:56] Dory Berenstein: Um so uh and and also the other part of it is that you know I grew up around her films, loving her films, and so we have a shared language of, you know, particularly, you know, she made a film in in 2003, 2004 uh called Show Business The Road to Broadway, which was really like the formative film of my childhood because I was around as it was being shot, and then I watched it like 72 times, and um, you know, and I and I loved it.

[21:22] Sammy Kennell: Um, and and this film is actually quite similar to that one in so many ways because it's about you know what's going on behind the curtain, the drama behind the curtain.

[21:30] Sammy Kennell: I I think being able to sort of learn from the structure of that film and um the the process of making that film of getting uh theatrical companies to trust you to let you into their process because making theater is so sacred, you know, and you don't want to intrude on that.

[21:45] Sammy Kennell: That was all something that I feel like I had the privilege of of learning. Um, you know, and and I'm grateful for that.

[21:52] Dory Berenstein: I just want to point out I think she was like six, but that's but she was really

[21:52] Sammy Kennell: I was 10.

[22:02] Dory Berenstein: Come on.

[22:03] Sammy Kennell: But she was soaking it up and and you know, yes.

[22:11] Dory Berenstein: Yeah, but but I think uh, you know, it was also uh a lot of responsibility, and in the middle of a global pandemic.

[22:19] Dory Berenstein: Um, and you know, we in the three weeks that we had to get Sammy out the door, you know, it included figuring out a camera for her to use because we were limited to having two people that were allowed in the bubble.

[22:35] Dory Berenstein: Um and so, you know, it I think it looks like we uh this is uh such a testament to Sammy and um our DP, uh Francois.

[22:44] Dory Berenstein: Um, but it we had, you know, two people and we didn't have a sound person. We it was it was very mom and pop um because we weren't allowed to have a crew.

[22:57] Dory Berenstein: You couldn't just come and go. You literally had to embed with a production. So you know, Sammy in in a very short period of time had to become a filmmaker on top of becoming a uh documentary producer and director.

[23:13] Dory Berenstein: So it was it was a lot to do, a lot to learn. But then she had quarantine, so you had you had a lot.

[23:17] Sammy Kennell: You had a lot of time to read the instructions on where the on button was and things like that.

[23:28] Dory Berenstein: Figure out how to shoot. But but still, it was it was uh, you know, I I I really am grateful to our partners uh across the board because this was very high risk.

[23:41] Dory Berenstein: You know, who knew what was gonna happen with the world, you know, we no one knew what was coming next as far as COVID is concerned, and we were all the way across the world doing this and in with very challenging situations for any documentary film, let alone you know one where we had such a limited uh crew.

[24:01] Dory Berenstein: Uh so I uh it was it was um rather challenging and rather risky and uh um but also something we both felt very passionate about and it was a moment in time we felt had to be captured, and uh we only wish at this point it was completely a historical document and not anything that is still relevant, but alas it's it's still very relevant.

[24:31] Sammy Kennell: Yeah, I I I feel like this documentary is a little a little miracle because of the fact that like it was made at you know, such a heightened time where we didn't know what was going on, and I'm so glad that the beginning of the pandemic was documented and how it was handled and soul just to watch everything happening just gave me um so much hope.

[24:56] Sammy Kennell: And I remember hearing that it was happening, you know.

[24:59] Sammy Kennell: Um, but now then to see the whole the whole thing and to see the whole piece and and um just to see those actors be so elated to be able to work and how um how they how honored they felt, but how they also felt like I get to like none of my friends are working, and I'm I'm I'm getting to be able to do that.

[25:27] Pamela Shandrow: Um I'm I'm curious, I'm always curious what gets left on the cutting room floor. Like what are the scenes or what are the stories that you wish you could have added to it that you weren't able to?

[25:40] Dory Berenstein: Um, and then also my other question is like a moment that was never going to be on camera that just like was special to you. Um so those are I'd love stories about both of those if you all have them.

[25:56] Sammy Kennell: Yeah, I mean, what what's coming to mind for me is we got to shoot all of cats um and the majority of Phantom and much of it from backstage.

[26:10] Sammy Kennell: We got to, you know, and and we got there's just so much access that we were given.

[26:17] Sammy Kennell: Um and I think we could make an entire second documentary on backstage at Phantom and Cats, which is very interesting to a lot of Phantom and Cats fans.

[26:29] Sammy Kennell: You know, period. So the I think that's the only thing that I'm just sort of like, ah I feel crazy that I'm like sitting on this footage that a lot of people would like to see, you know, how the cats put on their makeup, how you know all these different things that I think are kind of like um have in many cases been sort of kept under under wraps um about about both shows.

[26:50] Sammy Kennell: And we were just so lucky to have access to them.

[26:52] Dory Berenstein: So I think you know we we ended up waiting a lot more towards things related to the pandemic.

[26:57] Sammy Kennell: But I think we do have a lot of that like really cool um behind the scenes footage.

[27:05] Dory Berenstein: Speaking of the makeup the the whole mask with the makeup on oh my goodness we were like whoa so brilliant.

[27:15] Sammy Kennell: But then that poor woman was like but now they've asked me to make I don't know it was like 60 I mean it was a lot after I was like oh bless your heart.

[27:22] Dory Berenstein: I'm sorry.

[27:23] Sammy Kennell: Yeah you know I mean very very creative creative solutions.

[27:28] Dory Berenstein: Um so um yeah but we had uh it's a it's a 90 minute film and we have 90 hours of footage.

[27:38] Sammy Kennell: So I would add to that that you know obviously it was a uh precarious time to to interact with people.

[27:48] Dory Berenstein: Um and uh I'm fascinated by the fact that um pandemic or not the Korean audience showed up the theater.

[27:58] Sammy Kennell: Yes.

[27:59] Dory Berenstein: You know they they they were not gonna let this little pandemic stand in the way of of art for them.

[28:06] Dory Berenstein: And I think that, you know, Sammy uh was obviously very limited.

[28:11] Dory Berenstein: She would had to be in the bubble and and and didn't have um you know the freedom to really be interacting with uh people outside the bubble.

[28:20] Dory Berenstein: Um and so, you know, I I would love to really understand a little bit more about the passion of the the Korean um uh audience and why and theater is so important to them, obviously, and because they were really on the front line.

[28:41] Dory Berenstein: They were the ones who were willing to show up and say, I believe that theater is safe and I'm going to, you know, enjoy my theater, and I'm thrilled to be here.

[28:52] Dory Berenstein: And you know, we I think you were able to capture just the joy that they, you know, how excited they were to be there, but you know, to really understand why theater is just so important.

[29:05] Dory Berenstein: It was it was to me, it was so exciting to know that and to see that.

[29:11] Sammy Kennell: Yeah, and we also uh now that I think of it, we have a lot of footage um from other productions in Korea.

[29:18] Sammy Kennell: Um, you know, we were we were invited into the room on uh Ghost, on kinky boots, on um a number of other shows.

[29:27] Dory Berenstein: Um, and that access was so meaningful and so special, and we just sort of decided for like an audience's focus and for, you know, being able to follow characters and connect with characters that it made the most sense to really, you know, stay focused on Phantom and Cats.

[29:43] Dory Berenstein: And we do have a montage where we include right those shows and Rent and a whole bunch of other shows um in Korea.

[29:52] Dory Berenstein: Um, but you know, we it was really important to us that we not that the film not imply that Phantom and Cats are the only shows um in Korea. Phantom was certainly the first that survived but there were, you know, theater companies all around the country that were kind of, you know, keeping the flame alive and we nod and celebrate them as well. I now that you're talking about the montage I do remember the very beginning when they're shining the Kinky Boots.

[29:52] Sammy Kennell: Yes, yeah exactly. We I mean I spent like two hours in the Kinky Boots rehearsal room in Seoul as they were taking us through the process of how they um detox the set every night, like the rehearsal set every night and how they clean the props and how they, you know, um so you know there are there's so many stories we could be we could make a 90 hour documentary but um nobody wants to watch that so I would I know I was just about to say I mean release like little snippets on YouTube I would subscribe to that channel just saying about it think about it.

[29:52] Sammy Kennell: Um okay so now I'm curious uh because Sammy you're uh director and Dory you're a theatrical producer now since all of that since the beginning of the pandemic and now you know we're moving through it sort of in ways um what like what's your prognosis or what have you learned throughout these last two years as you continue to do this work and um continue to try to keep your cast safe, your creative team safe, and things like that as leaders in this industry.

[31:43] Sammy Kennell: I think I learned so much uh from being in Korea.

[31:48] Sammy Kennell: And actually, while I was there, I joined a task force that um the Stage Directors and Choreographers Society, my union was putting together um to talk about how we as directors and choreographers and five choreographers uh and intimacy directors return to uh rehearsal rooms in a way that is um empathetic to what everybody has has gone through.

[32:14] Sammy Kennell: And that's not just COVID. That I mean that's that's everything that happened in the last you know three years and all of the you know systemic issues that our industry needs to, you know, be fixing.

[32:25] Sammy Kennell: Um and and so what is it what does it mean as leaders in rooms to come back and facilitate um rooms where everybody feels safe?

[32:35] Sammy Kennell: Um and so uh a lot of what I learned from that and and from um a colleague of mine named Claire Warden, who is an incredible um edit and fight director, um you know, she talked a lot about how we need to take time at the beginning of rehearsal processes to say we've all been through a lot.

[32:59] Sammy Kennell: A lot looks different for all of us.

[33:01] Sammy Kennell: And you know, it's um and we need to move perhaps slower than we did pre-pandemic.

[33:09] Sammy Kennell: We need to move more empathetically, we need to move with an understanding for health and uh wellness, which is not just physical, it's mental.

[33:19] Sammy Kennell: So um I learned a lot, and I'm glad I learned it at the stage in my career that I'm at, because I feel like now as I go into rooms that may be more stressful, more intense, I can sort of bring that um reminder of empathy and reminder of process being just as important as as product.

[33:39] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah excellent yeah and what about you Dory?

[33:43] Dory Berenstein: Well I had two shows on in the fall on Broadway and uh uh we were surrounded by an amazing team of COVID um officers COVID we had incredible support and uh we got through it without incident and um and I think it really takes incredible teamwork it takes a a lot of uh uh real uh careful behavior uh in the theater and outside the theater by the entire company um because you really need to protect your your theater family um so I think it's it's a lot you know it's a lot of of responsibility to to put on an entire company but I think everybody um in in our experience everybody was just so thrilled to be coming back to theater and to be able to to put um art on stage that you know whatever whatever it took you know everybody was into it and of course you can't fully protect yourself but um you know go to the market and anything can happen but but uh uh I think that um there's such a a deep commitment from everyone to do everything they can to keep theater safe.

[35:06] Dory Berenstein: And then I think what we have seen since Broadway has opened, which is almost almost been a year, that theater is an incredibly safe place to be because everyone is wearing masks.

[35:17] Dory Berenstein: And you know, I feel a lot safer going to the theater than I do going anywhere.

[35:25] Dory Berenstein: Because I'm, you know, I I think that there's never been a case of audience to audience transmission, and um, and we can all just relax and enjoy theater.

[35:35] Dory Berenstein: So that's a joyous place for for me.

[35:38] Dory Berenstein: And I I would imagine anybody who is listening to Theatre Geeks Anonymous feels the same way.

[35:44] Ebony Vines: I I do, I do as well.

[35:46] Ebony Vines: Like I feel a lot safer.

[35:49] Ebony Vines: I mean, full disclosure, like I haven't physically gone to my church in like a couple of years, but I've been to the theater because they require vaccination and masking.

[36:01] Ebony Vines: Here, here.

[36:03] Ebony Vines: You know, and it's like I I have knocked on wood, been blessed to not catch it.

[36:09] Sammy Kennell: Wow.

[36:10] Ebony Vines: You know, and so I'm just like, what I don't understand, you know, I I this is what I love about the theater is like even though I feel like us as a country are struggling with the we, I feel like theater's like, I love theater because it's this microcosm of what we want the world to actually look like, right?

[36:30] Ebony Vines: And so I I see, you know, just like you were saying, Dory, with like inside of it, trying to change things um systemically and also trying to take care of one another when it comes to this virus, right?

[36:43] Ebony Vines: And then like when I hear the stories of like people being flown from they live in Colorado now and they're coming in to do like the sh the show for what I it's just like wild, you know.

[36:56] Ebony Vines: But it does, it gives me theater gives me so much hope for like what the world can look like.

[37:03] Sammy Kennell: Yeah, because it's a collaboration in every way on stage, uh behind the curtain, uh in the audience, it's complete collaboration.

[37:12] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah, yeah.

[37:14] Pamela Shandrow: Um, so uh my I think this might be my last question.

[37:19] Pamela Shandrow: I guess is well, I might have two.

[37:23] Sammy Kennell: Okay.

[37:24] Pamela Shandrow: First, I want to know, I I know it's on Apple TV right now, but I'm just curious, like if there's anything else coming down the pike for the documentary and or um, yeah.

[37:37] Pamela Shandrow: Is there anything else coming down the pike for the documentary?

[37:41] Sammy Kennell: And um, I also want to just know like what is giving you hope and excitement, you know, about theater, even though we're still dealing with this virus, but like what's what's bringing you light and joy about the theater right now?

[37:57] Pamela Shandrow: So those are my two last questions.

[38:00] Sammy Kennell: Well, to answer the first one, it's um on Apple TV and it's also now on Broadway on Demand as well.

[38:07] Sammy Kennell: Um, we're really grateful to them for um uh such a wonderful partnership.

[38:11] Sammy Kennell: They also did our virtual premiere back in August.

[38:15] Sammy Kennell: Um, and uh so you can watch it either place, you can decide.

[38:20] Sammy Kennell: Um and uh to answer your second question for me personally, um sometimes I feel like actually this is a bit of a tangent, but when when uh my mom and I are doing things together, sometimes I feel the need to say, This is Sammy, uh, because our voices sound so similar.

[38:38] Sammy Kennell: Um this is Sammy.

[38:40] Sammy Kennell: Um but uh anyway, uh I um what's giving me hope um at this particular moment is um next week I get to go into a rehearsal process where I'm really uh staging a full show for the first time since the pandemic like I've been in a lot of workshops I've directed a lot of concerts I've done you know things since we've been back but this will be the first time that I'm stayed like staging a full musical um and that to me feel makes me feel like we're really back so I'm I'm really looking forward to that and um yeah excited to be like in the room as a as a director because oftentimes when you're doing a reading or you're doing something else you don't always feel like you're you're fully directing um but when you're when you're staging then you do.

[39:31] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah yeah that's awesome and Dory what about you?

[39:31] Dory Berenstein: Well I have I have uh um I've had I'm having such an amazing time collaborating with phenomenal artists on a number of new projects so I that's giving me tremendous joy and a great hope for the future but I think that what has given me the greatest joy and the greatest hope for um our industry is um the podcasters of the Broadway Podcast Network and Ebony you you've done amazing work throughout this you know the entire pandemic and you really work so hard to keep theater alive you know just like our our film celebrates um artists that have you know really took risks, great risks to keep art alive during the pandemic.

[40:26] Dory Berenstein: That's exactly what you were doing too.

[40:28] Dory Berenstein: You know, you were making sure that all the people around the world that love theater were able to keep theater front of mind.

[40:35] Dory Berenstein: And uh and that to me just was such an incredible service and such um it it just made me listening to your podcast just to lose myself to theater stories and and all of that made me so happy and um and hopeful about the future.

[40:54] Dory Berenstein: And so now, you know, to have is that you can have conversations about things that are happening.

[40:59] Dory Berenstein: And yeah, that's that's even more exciting.

[41:03] Dory Berenstein: But uh, you know, I think that that um it's it's kind of the uh the deeper dive into the the making of the behind the curtain of our world that I just find so much joy in and I'm fascinated by.

[41:18] Dory Berenstein: And so uh for for all the podcasters out there who are telling you stories and for the work that you both have been doing on uh Theatre Geeks Anonymous, I'm I'm so grateful and uh and and thank you for giving me that hope and joy.

[41:32] Ebony Vines: Thank you so much for saying that.

[41:34] Ebony Vines: That's really that's really kind.

[41:36] Ebony Vines: And I I mean, oh man, I just we love the theater.

[41:40] Ebony Vines: That's why that's why we do this.

[41:42] Ebony Vines: That's why we gave ourselves the name we did, because we were those little kids, right?

[41:47] Ebony Vines: Who nobody where we grew up understood who were going to, in this case, borders at like Saturday mornings getting all the cast recordings.

[41:55] Ebony Vines: Do you know what I mean?

[41:56] Ebony Vines: Like that's and so it's like when everything shut down, it was like, well, we're gonna still talk about it.

[42:03] Ebony Vines: And also it was really important for us to say, like, it's it's important.

[42:08] Ebony Vines: The only reason we all got through this pandemic was because of the arts.

[42:13] Dory Berenstein: Right.

[42:14] Ebony Vines: You know, and I had I had some friends who would be like, you know, they didn't feel important because so much of the world had stopped remembering the importance.

[42:24] Ebony Vines: And I said, no, you're essential because this is what's keeping us somewhat okay, is to be able to watch digital theater, is to be able to listen to music or to listen to a podcast or all these different things.

[42:38] Ebony Vines: This is how we all got through, you know.

[42:42] Ebony Vines: So uh, you know, I'm just geeks.

[42:46] Ebony Vines: I'm gonna leave you all with that.

[42:47] Ebony Vines: Sammy and Dory, thank you so much for coming on our podcast.

[42:51] Sammy Kennell: Thank you.

[42:52] Ebony Vines: Everyone, please go watch The Show Must Go On.

[42:56] Ebony Vines: It's on Apple TV, it's on Broadway HD.

[43:00] Ebony Vines: It will just like Broadway.com.

[43:02] Ebony Vines: Uh Broadway.com.com probably on the Broadway on Demand.

[43:07] Ebony Vines: Sorry.

[43:08] Ebony Vines: I've so we have like several Broadway.

[43:11] Ebony Vines: Okay, there's a lot of streamers for Broadway on Demand.

[43:15] Ebony Vines: Okay.

[43:16] Ebony Vines: And Apple TV.

[43:18] Ebony Vines: Um, it's wonderful.

[43:19] Ebony Vines: It will warm your heart, it will um encourage you, and it's just a wonderful piece of filmmaking.

[43:27] Ebony Vines: So thank you all so much for being here.

[43:30] Ebony Vines: Thank you for listening to our podcast, Theatre Geeks Anonymous.

[43:36] Ebony Vines: You can follow us on Instagram and Twitter at T G A B Way and on Facebook at Theatre Geeks Anonymous.

[43:45] Ebony Vines: And if you want to tell us how much you love us, or you have a great story about one of the shows we've talked about, drop us a note at T G A B Way at Gmail.com.

[43:58] Ebony Vines: Until next time, geeks!