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[0:00] Heather Vickery: Alright, alright. So we start the show.

[0:12] Alan Seales: Okay, McConaughey. I was gonna say Matt Smith.

[0:15] Heather Vickery: Alright, alright.

[0:21] Alan Seales: And I hate, I hate that we all love that line.

[0:24] Heather Vickery: Because it's the creepiest fucking character ever.

[0:28] Alan Seales: He improved it, right?

[0:30] Heather Vickery: Gross. Well, that line, yeah.

[0:32] Alan Seales: But I mean, he was a predator.

[0:34] Heather Vickery: Right? It's really quite simple.

[0:36] Alan Seales: That's what I like about them high school girls.

[0:38] Heather Vickery: I keep getting older and they stay the same age.

[0:41] Alan Seales: Yeah, it's disgusting.

[0:42] Heather Vickery: Except I love that line.

[0:43] Alan Seales: Didn't age well.

[0:44] Heather Vickery: And I love, no, no.

[0:46] Alan Seales: It shouldn't have, it shouldn't have been well then.

[0:50] Heather Vickery: Hey folks, welcome to Was It Chance?.

[0:53] Alan Seales: I'm just gonna do it.

[0:55] Heather Vickery: I don't know where you're gonna put that music in.

[0:57] Alan Seales: Who produced that show?

[1:00] Heather Vickery: Was it Weinstein? Because that would make sense.

[1:02] Alan Seales: Oh, snap. I don't know.

[1:04] Heather Vickery: Who produced that movie?

[1:06] Alan Seales: Anyway, anyway.

[1:07] Heather Vickery: I'm pretty sure you will have that Googled.

[1:09] Alan Seales: Welcome to Was It Chance?.

[1:11] Heather Vickery: The podcast about taking intentional risk for creative success, even if sometimes it doesn't age well.

[1:17] Alan Seales: I'm Heather Vickery.

[1:18] Heather Vickery: Why did I put in a gummy bear right when I had it?

[1:20] Alan Seales: Why did you?

[1:21] Heather Vickery: I don't know.

[1:22] Alan Seales: I'm Alan Seales and I'm starving. So I'm eating soft and non-noise-making gummy bears right now because I need a little sugar kick.

[1:30] Heather Vickery: And I'm gonna make some.

[1:31] Alan Seales: Anyway, listen in as we chat with other successful people about the risks they've taken to put themselves on a path to creative success.

[1:38] Heather Vickery: Hey, Alan.

[1:39] Alan Seales: Hey, Heather.

[1:40] Heather Vickery: How are you?

[1:41] Alan Seales: Wow, we have a really patient guest who thankfully told us right before we started recording that they've been enjoying our silliness.

[1:47] Heather Vickery: I have.

[1:48] Alan Seales: We just dove in.

[1:49] Heather Vickery: We dove in with the silly.

[1:51] Alan Seales: Alan's eating gummy bears.

[1:52] Heather Vickery: And we were talking about his new show that is on its way to when playwrights kill, which is on its way to Broadway.

[1:58] Alan Seales: I'm just going there.

[1:59] Heather Vickery: You're just Oprah-ing that into the world.

[2:02] Alan Seales: I'm Oprah-ing that.

[2:03] Heather Vickery: Fuck that. I'm anti-Oprah these days.

[2:05] Alan Seales: You're Vickery-ing it.

[2:07] Heather Vickery: Yes.

[2:08] Alan Seales: I'm Heather-ing it.

[2:09] Heather Vickery: You're Heather-ing it.

[2:10] Alan Seales: Yes.

[2:11] Heather Vickery: Yes.

[2:12] Alan Seales: I could just be a one-woman name.

[2:14] Heather Vickery: You should.

[2:15] Alan Seales: Heather.

[2:16] Heather Vickery: Who's that?

[2:17] Alan Seales: Heather.

[2:18] Heather Vickery: Did you have to say it like really intensely?

[2:21] Alan Seales: Why does it have to sound like that?

[2:23] Heather Vickery: Because it means so much.

[2:25] Alan Seales: Heather.

[2:27] Heather Vickery: Heather is the least popular name in history, except for the years 1974 and 1975, the year I was born and the year after I was born.

[2:34] Alan Seales: Really?

[2:35] Heather Vickery: Yes.

[2:36] Alan Seales: Why a least popular?

[2:37] Heather Vickery: Because there's so many of them from 74, 75?

[2:39] Alan Seales: No, because nobody ever wanted to name it.

[2:42] Heather Vickery: It's never charted, except for those two years.

[2:45] Alan Seales: I dated a Heather.

[2:46] Heather Vickery: Did you?

[2:47] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[2:48] Heather Vickery: Was she older than you?

[2:49] Alan Seales: Yes.

[2:50] Heather Vickery: There you go.

[2:51] Alan Seales: Yep.

[2:52] Heather Vickery: I dated a Heather.

[2:53] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[2:54] Heather Vickery: She was a good ... Yeah.

[2:55] Alan Seales: She was older than me.

[2:56] Heather Vickery: Who other Heathers do I know? I know a lot of Heathers.

[2:58] Alan Seales: I know Heather Bedore from the Broadway Fan Club.

[3:00] Heather Vickery: Hi, Heather.

[3:01] Alan Seales: ... on the Broadway Fan Club, Broadway Podcast Network.

[3:03] Heather Vickery: Where the Heathers are there? There's you.

[3:04] Alan Seales: I think, yeah, Heather Bedore was upset because you got the @Heather username on calendar PA first.

[3:07] Heather Vickery: Yeah.

[3:08] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[3:09] Heather Vickery: Yeah.

[3:10] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[3:11] Heather Vickery: Yeah.

[3:12] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[3:13] Heather Vickery: Yeah.

[3:14] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[3:15] Heather Vickery: Yeah.

[3:16] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[3:17] Heather Vickery: Yeah.

[3:18] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[3:19] Heather Vickery: I got the Heathers on calendar PA first.

[3:20] Alan Seales: Ooh, ooh, ooh. Good.

[3:21] Heather Vickery: I would be so pissed if I didn't have it first.

[3:25] Alan Seales: Well, you were one of the first people I told to go sign up.

[3:28] Heather Vickery: I know.

[3:29] Alan Seales: I know.

[3:30] Heather Vickery: I get to be your test dummy.

[3:31] Alan Seales: Actually, you texted the other day, hashtag first child.

[3:34] Heather Vickery: All the issues are with me.

[3:37] Alan Seales: I get to fix the issues.

[3:38] Heather Vickery: Yep.

[3:39] Alan Seales: Yep.

[3:40] Heather Vickery: Yeah.

[3:41] Alan Seales: You're making it better for the rest of the world.

[3:42] Heather Vickery: Anyway, well, I'm looking forward to this.

[3:44] Alan Seales: I've been looking forward to you.

[3:45] Heather Vickery: Me too. That's why we dive in, by the way, listeners. That's why we dive in and just start yapping because this is how Heather and I talk all the time anyway.

[3:51] Alan Seales: It's usually via text, but it never stops all day long.

[3:55] Heather Vickery: And then when we get together, the rare times we do, it's like the skies open up and the heavens shine down on us, and we get to do this for hours and hours, and it's so great.

[4:04] Alan Seales: It's so fun.

[4:05] Heather Vickery: Yeah. It is so...

[4:07] Alan Seales: We have a good time.

[4:08] Heather Vickery: It's my favorite thing.

[4:09] Alan Seales: Anyway, I was telling him about the gummies because that's a theme in Alan's play when playwrights kill. So now you'll understand why we were joking about gummies when you go see the show on Broadway.

[4:19] Heather Vickery: Fingers crossed. It's going to be there.

[4:22] Alan Seales: No announcement date yet, but it's coming. Hopefully.

[4:25] Heather Vickery: Yeah.

[4:26] Alan Seales: Yes.

[4:27] Heather Vickery: Alan, speaking of 1974, this is a bit of a random segue, but we did talk about Heather being a popular name only for two years. Earlier this week, I took my daughter, who's 16, to see Bruce Springsteen and the E Street Band in their protest tour.

[4:41] Alan Seales: Nice.

[4:42] Heather Vickery: First of all, you have to be as famous as someone like Springsteen to put together an American tour in two weeks as a response to a tyrannical government.

[4:55] Alan Seales: It's really fucking impressive.

[4:56] Heather Vickery: When Springsteen calls, you pick up.

[4:59] Alan Seales: Right.

[5:00] Heather Vickery: I think so.

[5:01] Alan Seales: I think so.

[5:02] Heather Vickery: But it was an incredible, incredible show.

[5:05] Alan Seales: Three straight hours of these 70-plus-year-old men and women literally rocking.

[5:13] Heather Vickery: The only rock concert I've ever been to that was more intense than that was U2.

[5:17] Alan Seales: Me too?

[5:18] Heather Vickery: It was incredible.

[5:19] Alan Seales: No, not me too. U2, which was amazing.

[5:22] Heather Vickery: But I brought it up at the very end. As he was about to do the last song, he goes, damn, Chicago, I think the first time I played here was 1974 and I was 25 years old.

[5:31] Alan Seales: My daughter goes, isn't that the year you were born?

[5:34] Heather Vickery: I'm like, yep.

[5:35] Alan Seales: So he's 75 years old.

[5:38] Heather Vickery: I'm like, goddesses, please give me whatever it is.

[5:43] Alan Seales: It's a muscle.

[5:44] Heather Vickery: That gives them that stamina.

[5:45] Alan Seales: It's a stamina muscle.

[5:46] Heather Vickery: Holy shit.

[5:47] Alan Seales: Plus a lot of steroids and drugs.

[5:49] Heather Vickery: But yeah.

[5:50] Alan Seales: Probably steroids.

[5:51] Heather Vickery: I don't think that the man can do drugs.

[5:52] Alan Seales: I don't think you could perform as well as he did and be a user.

[5:55] Heather Vickery: I meant like prescription drugs.

[5:57] Alan Seales: Well there's probably some painkillers.

[5:58] Heather Vickery: Like some painkillers.

[5:59] Alan Seales: Because it hurts me to get out of bed some more.

[6:04] Heather Vickery: It doesn't hurt me physically.

[6:05] Alan Seales: It hurts my soul.

[6:06] Heather Vickery: Oh, well, just wait. Give it 10 more years, pal.

[6:08] Alan Seales: Today I have to get out of bed again.

[6:09] Heather Vickery: But then I was like, oh, Heather, today, bling.

[6:10] Alan Seales: Bling.

[6:11] Heather Vickery: I know. Two in a row.

[6:13] Alan Seales: We get to record two in a row.

[6:14] Heather Vickery: And I'm going to go ahead and plant a little seed there and go, isn't that just a lovely small wonder that we get to spend three hours together today?

[6:27] Alan Seales: What do you mean by that?

[6:28] Heather Vickery: What's a small wonder?

[6:29] Alan Seales: A small wonder just happens to be the name of the book of our guest today, Jennifer Shoup.

[6:34] Heather Vickery: Did I say that right?

[6:35] Alan Seales: I should have checked that.

[6:36] Heather Vickery: You did.

[6:37] Alan Seales: But we have to be like, we have to do Shoup, Bae, TLC.

[6:42] Heather Vickery: Okay, when you hear Shoup, do you go TLC or do you go Dreamgirls, like Diana Ross?

[6:50] Alan Seales: Me, I go TLC.

[6:51] Heather Vickery: I do too. What about you, Jennifer?

[6:53] Jennifer Shoop: Yeah, that's my point of reference.

[6:55] Heather Vickery: But there's also a Whitney song, the Shoup song.

[6:58] Alan Seales: How do I not know that?

[6:59] Heather Vickery: I know. There's a lot of great Shoup songs.

[7:02] Alan Seales: Hold on, Shouper.

[7:05] Heather Vickery: We got to give you your bio.

[7:07] Alan Seales: I know, I know.

[7:08] Heather Vickery: I'm going to read the bio, but I got to say this first.

[7:10] Alan Seales: Hold on, hold on, hold on.

[7:11] Heather Vickery: Because there's a trend on TikTok right now that says, I'll know what generation you are when you tell me what is the next word that comes to mind. And it's always a song when I say this word, right? So now I feel like I need to go on in promotion for this episode and be like, what's the first song that comes to mind when you hear the word Shoup?

[7:24] Jennifer Shoop: Definitely TLC.

[7:27] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[7:28] Heather Vickery: I'm with you.

[7:29] Alan Seales: Or TLC.

[7:31] Heather Vickery: No, I'm Salt-N-Pepa.

[7:32] Alan Seales: Yes, you are.

[7:33] Heather Vickery: Yes.

[7:34] Alan Seales: Yeah, exactly. Don't mix up your amazing girl rap bands.

[7:38] Heather Vickery: My bad.

[7:39] Alan Seales: Don't do that.

[7:40] Heather Vickery: My bad.

[7:41] Alan Seales: It's Salt-N-Pepa, baby.

[7:42] Heather Vickery: Anyway, Jennifer was supposed to be a professor and then a nonprofit executive and then a teacher and a tech founder.

[7:46] Alan Seales: And I don't think you were supposed to be a teacher.

[7:50] Heather Vickery: I think I just read that wrong. So I'm going to start over.

[7:53] Alan Seales: And you're going to edit that, Alan.

[7:55] Heather Vickery: Yes, I will.

[7:56] Alan Seales: Yes, I will.

[7:57] Heather Vickery: It's a Friday.

[8:02] Alan Seales: Jennifer was supposed to be a professor and then a nonprofit executive and then a tech founder.

[8:07] Heather Vickery: And instead, Jennifer Shoup writes about chipmunks and dandelions and somehow built one of the most loyal literary communities on the Internet while she was doing it.

[8:16] Alan Seales: Her debut book, Small Wonders, is proof that paying attention to the tiny stuff is actually the biggest creative risk of all time.

[8:25] Heather Vickery: And I am so here for this as a joy warrior.

[8:27] Alan Seales: Oh, my gosh. Jennifer, welcome to the show.

[8:29] Jennifer Shoop: Thank you so much for having me.

[8:31] Alan Seales: Thanks for being patient with us as we got to this point.

[8:34] Jennifer Shoop: It was delightful. I love your rapport.

[8:37] Alan Seales: Thanks.

[8:38] Jennifer Shoop: So you built a following of small animals or writing about small animals?

[8:44] Alan Seales: And weeds.

[8:45] Jennifer Shoop: Oh, okay. I'm just picturing all these very studious squirrels just like up in the tree.

[8:51] Alan Seales: I would have yelled at them.

[8:52] Jennifer Shoop: Do you sing?

[8:53] Alan Seales: Shut the fuck up, Alan.

[8:55] Jennifer Shoop: Yeah.

[8:56] Alan Seales: You were gone yesterday.

[9:01] Heather Vickery: Heather and I are part of the feminist podcasters group, this organization. And we were in an event yesterday and I made a pun in the chat and you were gone. But the organizer was like, Heather, why are you here? How do you even put up with this guy all the time?

[9:20] Alan Seales: Yes.

[9:22] Heather Vickery: I'm surprised that Nicole, who's a regular listener and also a member of the collective, didn't say shut the fuck up, Alan.

[9:27] Alan Seales: She came to my defense, actually.

[9:32] Heather Vickery: Nicole, no.

[9:33] Alan Seales: I read it as a defense of you should hear him on the podcast or something like that.

[9:39] Heather Vickery: So I take that as a positive, even though I know she didn't mean it like that.

[9:42] Jennifer Shoop: Well, you're welcome to tell him to shut the fuck up if he does something dumb.

[9:47] Alan Seales: Never.

[9:48] Jennifer Shoop: Yes.

[9:49] Alan Seales: This gorgeous woman with this gorgeous book has a community of chipmunks, Alan.

[9:54] Heather Vickery: Yes. Listen, I've seen Disney movies. Gorgeous women come with gorgeous animal harems.

[10:01] Alan Seales: So we're going to talk about so many things. And I started to have this conversation before we hit record. And I was like, no, I need to save it. First of all, small wonders are special to me. I call them glimmers. I just think it's all really special. And I have all sorts of communities around that. And I actually just want to say that your pretty little book feels like it is a living representative of what you're putting out into the world.

[10:26] Jennifer Shoop: It is a gorgeous book.

[10:28] Alan Seales: You've got blue pages, y'all.

[10:31] Heather Vickery: I know.

[10:32] Alan Seales: Blue pages. This is a quality book that you want to have on your bookshelf.

[10:37] Heather Vickery: And so, I mean, the content inside is awesome also. But just the way you did that, and I really want to talk about that later in the conversation. Making books feel special, I think, is cool.

[10:50] Jennifer Shoop: Yes.

[10:51] Alan Seales: Thank you so much.

[10:52] Jennifer Shoop: I completely agree. And I have to give credit where credit's due, that I had a great publisher partner who I sent over all these mood boards. And she really got it and helped. Like, I don't know if it would be half as beautiful without her.

[11:07] Alan Seales: I love that.

[11:09] Jennifer Shoop: In most cases, not in all cases, but in most cases, getting a book out into the world is not a one-person show. Our friend Becky, who published yesterday, is, I think, the exception to that.

[11:19] Alan Seales: Wow.

[11:21] Jennifer Shoop: Yeah, there's a lot. I don't know. It was such a crazy learning experience. Learning every day. I felt like I was starting over again every day.

[11:36] Alan Seales: Do you get frustrated by that feeling of starting over?

[11:39] Jennifer Shoop: I do, and then I learn from it, and then I'm happy I did. But in the moment, I was like, God, I want it to be linear.

[11:47] Alan Seales: Right.

[11:48] Jennifer Shoop: No, I relate to that. I mean, I've built up, I think, a facility for that feeling of ineptitude because I publish every day on my blog.

[11:57] Alan Seales: Every single day.

[11:58] Jennifer Shoop: Wow.

[11:59] Alan Seales: So, yes. And a lot of times, not well.

[12:02] Jennifer Shoop: Like, what I put out there is not great.

[12:04] Alan Seales: I appreciate that.

[12:05] Jennifer Shoop: Yeah. It's just half-baked or scrappy or, you know.

[12:10] Jennifer Shoop: I have to know, we're going to go back to younger Jennifer at some point, but I have to know, do you prep in advance or do you just write what's on your heart that day and can it be two sentences? Like I don't, yeah, I'm really curious.

[12:28] Jennifer Shoop: It's the latter. I really show up, I call it shaking hands with a blank page. Like I just arrive and whatever is on my mind like falls out onto the page. But I've been doing it so long at this point. So daily for, I mean, I've been writing probably every day of my life, I would guess, but daily for the last decade have been publishing. So it feels like a comfortable practice at this point, even when I know what I'm putting out there is not going to be my best work, you know, but it's not the point.

[13:02] Heather Vickery: How does one not be a perfectionist asking for a friend?

[13:07] Jennifer Shoop: No, that's tough. You're fucked up. You're never going to not be a perfectionist. I think it's about finding like low stakes places. For example, I usually start writing on like a scrapped, like a scrap paper, like a receipt or something, something where I've written something else. It feels like, oh, this can go nowhere. No one's going to be looking at this. It feels like if I try to compose in like Microsoft Word, I feel like I'm writing in a tuxedo. Like I can't do that. I'm so awkward.

[13:35] Heather Vickery: I love that tip because it takes away that blank page pressure.

[13:40] Jennifer Shoop: Yeah. There's already something on the page. Or it's just, it is. Yeah. It's low stakes. Like it doesn't, whatever I write on the back of this receipt is not, doesn't need to be important. Literally. Sometimes I write on, like this is an old schedule for my show. I just wrote some notes on it and it's just here. So I like that because I grab and write on whatever is here, but then you are exactly right. When I sit down, I'm like, all right, I'm going to make a blog post now. I'm going to make a LinkedIn post and be influential. I'm like, I don't know where to start. I'll do it tomorrow.

[14:08] Heather Vickery: I know. It's like you're writing on a tightrope or something.

[14:11] Jennifer Shoop: Yeah. Well, I admire it. So I, this is, when this airs, my joy reclaimed experience will have been long over, but if you guys want it, I can, I can restart it. But I have a program, a 21 day activation container opening on Monday and leading up to it. I've done a post and a short live on Substack almost every day. I was supposed to do every day and yesterday I just didn't do it. I just was like, nope. I was like, I don't think anybody noticed or cared. I had a whole spiral with myself. It was fine. But it was exhausting like to do it every day and not, I didn't do it on the weekends, just every day during the week. I was like, man, I could not, I could not do this all the time, but maybe it was the live component that was really wearing me out.

[14:57] Heather Vickery: Yeah. And I think sometimes I found when I was writing this and I had a publish and force deadline for certain components, that was challenging for me because when I set my own schedule for myself, it's easier for me to stick to when someone else is telling me you have to get this in by a certain time. That was challenging. I didn't know that about myself, but, um, I don't know for my blog writing at least or for my private writing, I really, it doesn't ever feel like a chore like because, or sometimes, you know, I'm like, there's so many other competing demands in my life, but I really like have to write like I almost, it's not like I write because I want to, but because I have to, to see what I think.

[15:40] Jennifer Shoop: You have to write to see, you mean that's how you process your own thoughts?

[15:40] Jennifer Shoop: That's how you process. Exactly. So I feel like I haven't, I I've only like half experienced things until I've put like dress them in language.

[15:55] Heather Vickery: Have you always known that? So you kind of, you describe your path as squiggly, which I think is really great, right? There's government consulting, academia, nonprofits, HR tech, now writing full time. Was this something that was always true for you? This needing to write to process to figure out who you were and what your thoughts were?

[16:14] Jennifer Shoop: Definitely. I remember writing as like young as six, I think I started like putting stories under my mom's pillow and I like drafted like a screenplay with my best friend on an ancient typewriter. I mean, I always was drawn to the page, but it's funny because I, I didn't ever think that I would be able to write for a living, but I, I, I like knew I had to no matter where it took me. And every actually every part of my career has been very writing dense. So it's interesting you say that.

[16:45] Heather Vickery: I know Alan has a question. I'm going to let him ask one eventually, but my, I have four daughters and I love the theater and I am a, I have an English degree. I'm a writer singer. I do all those things, but so I've tried to get them all into these things and in some degree, most of them have, but my 16 year old is an actor and she recently said to me, so it was very similar. It's just what you, she said, cause she's a sophomore in high school about to become, she's a rising, almost a rising junior starting to think about if there's going to be school and what that's going to be. And she said, I can't imagine that it would be worth living my life if I can't act. And so first, my first thing was kind of panic, like this is a really hard industry, but then I'd like to take a breath and I slowed down and I said, what, what does that mean to you?

Like in what way? Cause there are lots of ways to act. Does it have to be your career? Does it have to be what makes you money? And she was like, I've been thinking about that. No, it doesn't. She's like, even if I'm teaching acting or if I'm doing community shows or whatever. And she said, I, you know, I'm okay with that. I just have to be doing this thing. And I love that you said that. And I love that for her. And I hope that for anybody, you can have passions that don't produce now, if you, you want them to be your main income, right. That's totally fine. But also they don't have to always do both things.

[18:13] Jennifer Shoop: Absolutely. I think that's so true and it's, yeah, who knows where she'll end up, but that's so powerful that she already has that sense of calling. I don't know. I actually write quite a bit about the feeling of being called to something on my blog. And I, and like sometimes when people seek my advice on writing, I, I don't mean to put a damper on their ambitions or something. But I'm like, if it's a calling, it's going to keep calling. And if it's not, it's going to like attenuate to a whisper and then you forget about it. But I feel like if you are so passionate as your daughter is already about theater, she's going to keep finding ways to weave it into her life.

[18:52] Heather Vickery: I think so. Yeah. Well, go back, go back then to when you were younger then, because your squiggly career, where did you think you were going first? I want to hop on, I want to go with you on all the journeys to hop from one decision to the next when you kind of jumped around to these things. So what did you think you were going to do originally?

[19:14] Jennifer Shoop: Well, it's funny because having put out this book and being invited to speak about it as in today, which is so special to me, this, even this moment is such a dream. I guess I did always like daydream about, oh, it'd be so cool to be a published author, to have like an author lifestyle. But I really didn't think that was possible, I don't know. I didn't know that I could do it, but I thought maybe I would go to be a professor. I always really liked the study of words and the idea of being a teacher I really was drawn to. But I don't know, I'd been writing on the side for so long, it just kind of grew into this career on the sidelines.

[19:59] Heather Vickery: So what got you into things like government consulting? Did you start there? Was that your first career?

[20:04] Jennifer Shoop: That was my first job out of college and I really did not want to do it and I hated it. It was so dry and boring. But I realized something about myself there, which is important, which is I realized I was a very hard worker. It was not difficult to motivate me, I was noticed really quickly by my boss and it felt so easy to me. I'd see peers like, oh, this is so, I'm finding it difficult or like they couldn't meet deadlines. I was like, what? Just do it. I realized then that I had this like capacity to be very disciplined, which has served me well in the practice of writing.

[20:40] Heather Vickery: Oh yeah. It would. And it's a little bit unique. Are you, do you know your human design?

[20:46] Jennifer Shoop: I don't. I heard you speak about this in one of your podcasts, but I haven't done it.

[20:51] Heather Vickery: Okay. Well, we can do it if you want. You can pull, everybody listening, you can pull a free chart on my website, but no, if you want to do it, because I suspect you have a defined, the center is called the heart center, but sometimes it's called the will or the ego. Those are get shit done people. And it's pretty rare because the way you described that, I was like, yeah, that is, that's not going to be me. And there's, we live in a society where there's a lot of shame and guilt around that. Because we're all supposed to be like you just described. Right. Yeah. And most of us aren't. That's impressive.

[21:24] Jennifer Shoop: I think it, I inherited it directly from my dad. Like this is so my dad's ethos too. He's like a workhorse, you know, just gets things done. I think I like observed him and I was like, I want to be like that. I don't know. Or maybe some of it's inborn. I don't know what your perspective on that is, but yes.

[21:41] Heather Vickery: Yeah. It could be both. Absolutely.

[21:44] Jennifer Shoop: But then, okay. So then when you're doing this job that is not the best, what chance came along that you said, all right, I'm going to hop over to this, this other thing over here and give this a try.

[21:55] Jennifer Shoop: Well, that was when I applied to get a master's in literature and I was like, let me try to go into academia and see where this takes me. And really that was such a fun, I mean, it's like the most useless degree probably like a terminal master's in literature. I mean, it, the career prospects are not promising. Like it's not the PhD where you have that credential and it's obvious you're going to go into like becoming a full professor. I don't know. But it was so fabulous for me because I got to write and read every day intensively and I loved it. And I got to teach writing and I, all of those things that now at the time felt like, what am I doing? Have actually come into play later in my life and been very powerful.

[22:41] Heather Vickery: That's the way that works, isn't it?

[22:43] Jennifer Shoop: Isn't it? Well, so then you left and keep telling the story then, because you left, when you were pursuing the master's, did you get, did you, were you still working the government job?

[22:55] Jennifer Shoop: I left that I was a full-time graduate student, thanks to my dad's generosity. I mean, it wouldn't be possible without him, my parents' generosity. But so I did that full-time and I was thinking I might go on to pursue a PhD, but I didn't know. And then I just happenstance meeting with like a startup nonprofit that was focused on educational attainment, like college, like driving the cost of education down. I know. And so we were, there was this whole era in the late, like the 2010s time period of like building MOOCs. Do you remember that term? Massive online open courseware, like free courses, Coursera. You could like, yeah, that was, we were building like a nonprofit version of that and trying to recruit all these faculty members to create free courses that people could take to pursue their own education.

And that was really thrilling to me too. And I was drawn to like the principle of it and I was brought on board as sort of the head of content, which is so laughable thinking back. I don't know who gave me that chance because I was just a master's student, but I was again, like very hardworking and I was willing to wear any hat they wanted me to wear. I was drafting like a legal prospectus, like I had no, no like leg to stand on. But I loved it. And I love to work with the faculty.

[24:20] Jennifer Shoop: So I did that for a few years and then switched to a different nonprofit. I love that work, it was so meaningful. But at the same time, I knew it wasn't like my bailiwick. You know, I wasn't doing what was creatively interesting to me. It was interesting for other reasons. And that's when I started intensively writing on the side. I was always writing, I think, but really putting pen to paper every single day.

[24:48] Alan Seales: We're gonna take a quick break. Stay tuned for more of the episode. And now we're back. Is that when so this Chipmunks and Dandelions we're talking about, it's actually called Magpie. Is that when you started Magpie? Like, I would love to know how Magpie became a thing.

[25:07] Jennifer Shoop: Yeah. Yes, it was an earlier incarnation of what's now called Magpie. But it was called the Fashion Magpie. There's always been like a fashion and shopping component to what I put out there in the world. But so I was writing the Fashion Magpie, I was doing like shopping roundups, I was writing random things about myself. It was so fun. I didn't think anyone read it. I don't think anyone did read it for years. I mean, it was just this little, really bad blog. And then just slowly over time, I started realizing that people responded very strongly when I would write more vulnerable essays. And people would say, like, oh, I came for the fashion, but I'm staying for the writing. And I just thought, okay, I'm doing something interesting, or interesting to me or interesting to the five people that were reading at that time. And then it kind of evolved from there. And I just kept going. And I honestly don't know how it landed me here.

[26:07] Alan Seales: Did it just feel like something you had to do? Because I think as somebody who writes, I write on Substack. And you know, who knows, it might say 85 people read it, but I get like, two hearts or whatever. You don't keep writing on that because you want to be discovered. You keep writing because you can't help it.

[26:26] Jennifer Shoop: Right. That's how I feel too.

[26:30] Alan Seales: Huh. Yeah, it's compulsive. It's like you were saying about your daughter, Heather, like you just have to do it. So I get that. But okay, so then were you writing for you? Do you still write for you? Or do you write for others? Is there a line that you're like, all right, I'm going to give them what they want to build my following or I don't give a shit. I'm just going to write everything and then because they're my followers, they will like it.

[26:56] Jennifer Shoop: Right. I believe I'm writing for myself. I think that I try actively not to think about an audience when I'm writing because I think that tampers with craft in a really disingenuous way. However, I will say that I've seen some of the stuff I put out there, like some of my list poetry and I do not consider myself a poet has taken off and I've gotten so much like wonderful opportunities have come from that. And so that's kind of opened my eyes in a different way. I'm not writing for that reader necessarily, but that was helpful feedback. I was like, oh, okay, maybe I have some facility with this type of medium. I'm going to try again. So it's maybe like pointed me in certain directions, but when I was sitting in front of the page, I'm trying to just write from a place of like authenticity.

[27:54] Alan Seales: Was that a big swing to take or you just started doing it and got more and more comfortable with it?

[28:00] Jennifer Shoop: The poetry piece and also sometimes I publish fiction, huge swings. They're terrifying. Fiction terrifies me. It's so hard. I feel like, oh my gosh, I can write this like memoir essay type of writing all day, every day. It's so natural to me. The fiction, the poetry is so challenging for me, but so every time I do it, it's like horrifying. It's so challenging for me to do, but I often find like very giving at the end worth the effort.

[28:34] Alan Seales: You mean the audience reaction is giving or like just the overall experience?

[28:38] Jennifer Shoop: I probably both. I mean, if I'm being honest, it's great to have people tell you that your words somehow fit a moment for them or landed with them in a really powerful way that I would be, it would be inauthentic to say that doesn't move me routinely. But I, in general, I still think the writing as a craft, as a practice is for me is, yeah, the experience of it is just so winning for me.

[29:06] Alan Seales: Okay. So you're writing Magpie. All of a sudden, it's bigger than you thought it was going to be.

[29:13] Jennifer Shoop: Yeah.

[29:13] Alan Seales: First of all, what was that experience like and how much of it was community-oriented? Building communities, I have a couple, is really hard work from my experience. And then how did we get to Small Wonders? Yeah, take us through that experience and that journey.

[29:32] Jennifer Shoop: Yeah, I completely agree. I have the best readers ever. I mean, they're so smart. I've learned so much from them. But I think one piece that I have always been conscious of is I try to respond to every single comment, as many DMs as I can, email, letters, whatever. That's really important to me because I think people showing up to read what I'm writing is such a gift. I have to keep that door open and be like, wow, come on through. Thank you so much for being here. But in terms of the growth of Magpie, I think a lot of it was word of mouth at first, which is fantastic. But at some point, I realized that... So my husband and I had an HR technology business and a past life. It feels so far away from me now. But at some point, we realized we were making more money off of my blog than off of this.

[30:31] Alan Seales: Wow. A blog? Really?

[30:33] Jennifer Shoop: Yeah.

[30:33] Alan Seales: People made big money on blogs in the early 2010s. Yeah.

[30:38] Jennifer Shoop: Yeah. We were making more there than we were off this technology business that we'd poured all of our life savings into, had actually raised capital for. And we were like, what? This thing that I'm just doing, like moonlighting, is making more money. So at that point, we were like, I need to see what's here. I need to continue down this road. And that was scary and tough because that was like a big risk because we didn't know how far it could go. And we had two young kids and we're trying to make it. It's like tremendous financial stress to do that. But I'm so glad we did. We took a huge, huge risk. And I kept saying, well, if it doesn't work out, at least I will have been at home with the kids when they were really young. And I can always go back to dot, dot, dot. And I was thinking that I might have to. But thankfully, I just was so focused and so motivated to make it work.

[31:37] Alan Seales: That seems like your common pattern, though. Whether you like it or not, and then you find something you like it, it's that much better.

[31:46] Jennifer Shoop: Exactly. Yeah.

[31:47] Alan Seales: So wait, how long ago was that then?

[31:50] Jennifer Shoop: So I started doing this full time in 2018.

[31:54] Alan Seales: Okay.

[31:54] Jennifer Shoop: It was when my, yeah.

[31:56] Alan Seales: And then pandemic hits 2020. Did that help or hurt? Because like blogs, everyone's at home reading.

[32:01] Jennifer Shoop: I know. It might have. Yeah, it might have helped. I mean, I don't know. Again, like at that time in everyone's life, I'm sure I just was looking for ways to process what was going on. So like the writing felt even more dear and important to me. And I found a lot of people were in similar straits. And I was really writing about the COVID experience head on. And like, this is so hard to do with little kids at home. I'm stuck in Manhattan. I can't go outside. People are dying. Like it was scary.

[32:30] Alan Seales: How old were your kids at the time?

[32:31] Jennifer Shoop: They were one and three.

[32:33] Alan Seales: Oh, really little. Yeah.

[32:33] Jennifer Shoop: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, gosh. Those were hard days.

[32:40] Alan Seales: Well, yeah. My kids are a little bit older, like by only a year or two. So we were doing Zoom in like preschool. And yeah, it was terrible.

[32:49] Jennifer Shoop: Yeah. Yeah. My kids were first grade. Is that right? Second grade. First, no. When it first hit first grade, fourth grade, eighth grade, and a freshman year. And it was, it had totally different impacts on all of them and on me at home and how they got supported and what they needed. But I can only imagine living space in Manhattan and not being able to go outside. And it's good that you had the outlet, I think, right?

[33:23] Jennifer Shoop: Yeah, it was so helpful. And I remember really like digging into this motif at that time that it felt like we were all like suspended, like it was a suspension of life. But I remember writing a lot about how actually this is not, this is life. This is the main event. We're still laughing and hugging our kids and going through the everyday things that we have to go through. And it was a huge mind shift for me that no matter what's going on, this is the main event. You're not in suspension. You're not waiting for the, you're not in the rehearsal room. You're like living it.

[34:05] Alan Seales: That is such a valid and important statement. Like no matter what's happening, no matter where you are, this is actually it.

[34:13] Jennifer Shoop: Yeah, this is all we have. The imperfect right now.

[34:18] Alan Seales: Which is why I do the work I do. Like this is it. So make it joyful. And I'm currently completely obsessed with Harry Style's new album, Kiss All the Time, Disco Occasionally. And there's a lyric in one of the songs. I will never stop talking about it. He's laughing at me. I love him though.

[34:36] Jennifer Shoop: The album is so good. It's so, so good. But there's a line in one of the songs that says, if you must join a revolution, make sure there's dancing. And that feels like the same concept. Whatever you're doing, do it all the way and find a way to make it work for you.

[34:51] Alan Seales: Yeah. Agree. Yeah. There's always, there's a, I'm going to botch this, but there's a famous poem that's about, will there be singing in the dark times? And like, yes, there has to be. I'll have to look up the exact quote because I totally butchered it, but it's really a beautiful sentiment.

[35:08] Jennifer Shoop: Yeah.

[35:09] Alan Seales: Well, you've jumped around to these different careers and now you're, not settling into, falling into the path that you're creating for yourself. Like, do you see the past as as failures or is it just like learning opportunities to go through from one thing to the next? Because I wasn't starting over every time.

[35:34] Jennifer Shoop: No, I completely feel that everything, every choice I've made has led me. It's been almost bringing me to this exact point. I've practiced for this moment right now. Even going on these, my little book tour, I was so nervous about the public speaking element. And then I was like, wait, I've done this before. When I was like fundraising for our HR technology business, I like would get so nervous before it would be like shaky and like, and then I remembered that there is somebody like that told me at some point back then, when I was pitching the business, like, that's just your body telling you it's ready. And that helped, like, I just was drawing on all these different, like specific experiences and learnings from every other version of myself. Even that, even now today, you know, and writing is that way. It's a secretive process where you're drawing from things you read four years ago, something you wrote.

[36:29] Jennifer Shoop: Two years ago, something you saw this morning, it's all bringing you to the present. It's making you ready for the present. It is. I do believe that with my whole heart, that everything that we've experienced is what allows us to be capable in the moment. But also we all have regrets, regrets are just a natural, normal human thing. But I wouldn't change most of my big decisions because I know I needed to experience those things, even if they were hurtful or painful.

[37:02] Alan Seales: A hundred percent. There's that quote by Anaïs Nin that's, um, in life you'll make mistakes, but those two are correct.

[37:11] Jennifer Shoop: I love that. Yeah. And I love her work.

[37:11] Alan Seales: I know. Yeah. So powerful. Yeah. That's good. That's good. Yeah. I, it's hard. It's hard at the moment to, to, I guess in my mind, like perceive stepping backwards in order to move forwards. And I always really get introspective and down on myself about that. If I have to do something like that, but then like, I feel, I feel like in those experiences, because you already have the forward lived experience by stepping back, you can jump forward again that much faster once you learn the basics of whatever new thing you moved into. So it's, it's hard and I have to keep reminding myself that.

[37:50] Jennifer Shoop: Well, if you get to apply the knowledge and skills that you gained, even if you're learning new things or you're starting over in some capacity, you still get to apply all of the tools that you put in your toolbox and they can help you achieve faster.

[38:05] Alan Seales: I just had this conversation with my 13-year-old. She's the other day talking about sometimes you have to slow down to go fast. And she's like, I don't really understand that. So we really kind of broke that down. What does that look like? What happens when we're rushing? I would say for me a solid 98% of the time, if I'm rushing through something I screw up and I have to go back and fix it. And it takes me longer than if I would have slowed down in the first place.

[38:30] Jennifer Shoop: That's a really good way to put it. And I'm going to use that with my fifth grader right now who messed up his book report so bad. He's got to redo it.

[38:38] Alan Seales: Buddy.

[38:39] Jennifer Shoop: Yeah, there's that. Anyway. All right. But now he knows that and that's the thing. Now he knows it. And he probably won't make that exact same error again. He's going to make errors, but maybe not that exact same one. It'll be different. We learn. Hopefully. That's the goal, right?

[38:55] Alan Seales: Yeah. Okay. So Jennifer, tell us about small wonders. Was this your idea and then you pitched it to publicists or to publishing houses or did somebody come to you and say, we love what you're doing. We want you to write a book, which is like the fucking dream.

[39:11] Jennifer Shoop: I know the latter happened. I know the latter happened, but I'm not going to lie to you. I know the, the latter happened. Congratulations that thank you. And it was so odd because that, so the beginning of every year, I tried to put together a new year's bingo card, like not new year's resolutions, but things I'll be delighted if they happen and cross them off and whatever. Um, and one of them was, I'm going to start querying for an agent because I had this fictional manuscript that I've been working on for a while. And I wrote that down and like that, I mean, I couldn't believe it, but some, you know, an acquisitions editor approached me and said, Hey, have you ever thought about writing a book?

And I was like, yes. But interestingly, and this is a big motif in my life as well. They wanted more of what I was publishing on my blog. So like my true daily art and not this other thing I haven't yet done before. And I just, it was one of those situations where again, I was like not living where my feet were. Like of course people would want more of what I'm known for, you know, first. So, um, it was a dream. So she reached out and we kicked around a few ideas and, um, she was so phenomenal to work with and really let me go the direction I wanted to go. So it was really an extension of what I already write about a lot on magpie.

[40:31] Alan Seales: I think that's great. It's, it's exciting to see that work for people, right? That you jump into something that's passionate for you and you do it simply because it feels like you can't help yourself. And then people start paying attention and then you start making money off of it. And then somebody says, Hey, we think this would make a great book. And then you get to make it such a special, beautiful book. The book is called small wonders, a field guide to life's quiet joys. And y'all know if you're listening me and joys and glimmers and small moments, it's the, it's the small moments that count period.

[41:07] Jennifer Shoop: Amen. Yeah. Like it really, it truly is. I'll tell another Harry Styles story and then we'll, we'll wrap this up. When the album came out, there was a pop-up shop in Chicago. There were like a handful of them across the country, across the world. And my daughter and I went and stood in line in the pouring rain for three and a half hours to get into the pop-up shop. And she bought what she wanted to buy. And I wasn't going to get anything cause I'm too old for concert swag kind of thing, but there was a great mug. It was just this perfect shape, perfect size, perfect color. And it said kiss on one side and disco on the other. And I was like, you know what? I'm going to buy myself this mug. And I had for about three weeks, this absolute joyful morning with my mug and remembering those moments in the rain with my kid, right?

These are, those are the moments that stand out is this, that, that experience. And then about three weeks after I got it, I was on a field trip with my youngest daughter and my partner said, I'm really sorry to tell you this, but I broke your Harry Styles mug. And she was like, I could buy you another one, but I don't see them anywhere. And I'm like, no, that's because they're unique to each individual pop-up shop and their collector's items. And there is one on eBay for $150, which is silly. You're not going to do that. And I said, but it's not about a mug. It's about a memory. It's about the fact that we did that together. So I was like, I don't want another mug. So it was sad. I mourned it for a little, but I still get to have that experience. So those small wonders make such a difference in our lives.

[42:37] Alan Seales: Jennifer, this is great. You're wonderful. Please tell folks how they can follow you, follow magpie, get the book, all that good stuff.

[42:45] Jennifer Shoop: Oh, well, that was such a beautiful story. And thank you for sharing that. I feel like that is so true. The small things that really make, yeah, just, I feel like that's a big ethos in the book is that, I think we grow blind to like the small things because they're so ordinary. It's like the weeds or the grout or like whatever you want to call it, the backyard birds that you overlook for huge swaths of your life. But then when you pause and, and show shine, like more of your attention on it, it's, there's such profound sites of meaning and it gives you shape, gives your day shape. But yes, you can find me on my blog every day. As I mentioned, I publish every single day, magpiebyjenshoop.com. I'm also on Instagram and the book you can find basically wherever books are sold.

So Amazon, Target, wherever. We will make sure that the book is on our was it chance guest list on bookshop.org. We have a shop. I have a shop on bookshop.org. So we'll make sure that's linked in the show notes and you guys are going to love it. It's lovely. And you can almost use it. I have another book that's similar to this where it's almost like use it like a tarot deck. Like just flip through and see what the universe wants you to know today. Like what is, what is the thing it wants you to pay attention to today? So you could read it all the way through and you should, but also, you know, just bring it in as a small moment.

[44:13] Alan Seales: I love that. Yeah. Thank you so much, Jennifer. This was fun and thanks for being a listener. We appreciate it.

[44:20] Jennifer Shoop: I've loved listening. So thank you.

[44:20] Alan Seales: Take care.

[44:25] Jennifer Shoop: You too.

[44:25] Alan Seales: We're going to take a quick break. Stay tuned for more of the episode.

[44:31] Alan Seales: And now we're back. I love, I really do. I really love stories of people who follow their passion and their chance is that they just couldn't give it up and then wonderful things happened.

[44:44] Jennifer Shoop: Like they didn't imagine it would be the thing.

[44:48] Alan Seales: That it's not happy until they do that.

[44:50] Jennifer Shoop: Yeah. And then that works out really well.

[44:53] Alan Seales: Yeah. I think it's so cool. And it's interesting to me. Like you were sort of shocked. She's like making a living off of a blog in the mid 2000s.

[45:04] Jennifer Shoop: Yeah. You know, I'll talk about regular things, talking about real life and real mom struggles and the experience of being a woman in the world. And yeah, I'm, I love that.

[45:18] Alan Seales: Yeah. Well, I think everybody wants to feel like they're not alone and that humanizes or at least like, yeah, bring, brings normal everyday everyone problems to the forefront or everyone kind of feels that. And you know, there's something about that is the more connected we are, the harder it is to, to make deep connections with people.

[45:40] Jennifer Shoop: Big time.

[45:41] Alan Seales: So I feel like there's a lot to, you know, that kind of writing style of just like, Hey, here's, here's what I'm going through and here's what I'm doing about it. And you know, hope anyone can relate, enjoy. And everyone's like, Oh yeah, yeah. Like this helped me out. It's something I didn't think about. It's yeah. So I appreciate that.

[45:58] Jennifer Shoop: It's good. And the, and the callback, I spend a lot of time talking about the micro moments, just a ton of time. Like little joys add up, little gratitudes add up. But I've, I feel like people ignore me a lot and I'm like, y'all listen, like this is really where it's at.

[46:13] Alan Seales: And so I appreciate Jennifer's approach and her whole book, which is really a beautiful book as a bibliophile, as somebody who just fucking loves books and looking at books and anytime they feel special like that. I'm like, like I could just got an extra gift.

[46:29] Jennifer Shoop: Yup. No, I like that. I like that a lot. And I think, you know, making the effort to make the book different as well, like physically different. It was its own small wonder. It stands out. Yeah. Yeah. It stands out because it's the small, the small little differences of the book that make it that much better, you know, appreciate them.

[46:44] Alan Seales: I agree. And how great was it that she's like a fan and loving our show?

[46:50] Jennifer Shoop: That was awesome. She's like, Oh, I've been enjoying getting to know you guys through the show. And I'm like my little heart grew to twice its size.

[46:56] Alan Seales: Okay. Okay. Scrooge. No, not Scrooge. Grinch. Grinch. Grinch.

[47:01] Jennifer Shoop: Okay. Shut the fuck up, Ballad.

[47:04] Alan Seales: Well, where can other people tell me to shut the fuck up?

[47:07] Jennifer Shoop: They, Oh my gosh. And in, in the nicest way possible, please do. You can email us at was it chance at was it chance podcast at gmail.com. You can send us a DM on Instagram. Uh, we are at, was it chance? You can send a DMR message on Tik TOK at, was it chance? No, was it chance pod? I'm on sub stack. Please do let us know. What we would really love for you to do though. Really truly a is, if you like this episode or any of our episodes, find two friends that you think might enjoy it and send it to them directly and say, Hey, I really think you'd like this show. That would mean the world. And also rate and review it because we have fragile egos and we love to hear it. Five stars, baby. Give me five.

[47:53] Alan Seales: Give her five. If only you could do more. Love all those stars. That's right. Well, thank you everybody for listening. You even listened to was it chance where the podcast about taking and embracing opportunity and taking intentional risk. I don't know where the podcast about, just talking. My phone just started ringing and it's on do not disturb, which means it's my mom. She's the only one that just keeps calling until it goes over the do not disturb. So anyway, Hey folks, I'm Heather Vickery. Thanks for listening.

[48:22] Alan Seales: And I'm Alan Seales. Hey, Heather's mom. We'll talk to you guys soon. Bye.

[48:30] Jennifer Shoop: Bye.