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[0:00] Warren Carlyle: From Shakespeare to sports, from Fossey to Alvin Haley, from Santham to Borelis, from McNally to Faye. It happened to the greats, it still happens every day. When lightning strikes is the moment you know. When lightning strikes, where your matter goes, you can stand and tell your rega. Do whatever you like. You'll never forget the moments when lightning strikes.

[0:26] Jeryl Brunner: Hi, this is Jeryl Brunner, and you're listening to When Lightning Strikes, where we talk about the tingly mic drop moments that led you to becoming an artist. Warren Carlyle is a Tony-winning and Emmy-nominated director and choreographer. Most recently, he directed and choreographed the musical Harmony, now playing on Broadway. Just a few of his other credits include After Midnight, Chaplin, Hugh Jackman: Back On Broadway, Finian’s Rainbow, A Tale of Two Cities, Kiss Me Kate, The Music Man, Hello, Dolly!, She Loves Me, On The 20th Century, The Mystery of Edwin Drood, A Christmas Story, Stephen Sondheim’s Follies, and more! Oh my goodness, and that's just a few. Welcome, Warren.

[1:25] Warren Carlyle: Hi.

[1:26] Jeryl Brunner: Hi!

[1:27] Warren Carlyle: Hi, hi!

[1:29] Jeryl Brunner: How are you doing?

[1:30] Warren Carlyle: I'm great. I'm great. I'm so happy to be here.

[1:31] Jeryl Brunner: I'm so honored to have you on your 16th Broadway show.

[1:37] Warren Carlyle: Crazy, right?

[1:38] Jeryl Brunner: Crazy, crazy. Can you talk about when Harmony came into your life? I know it was decades in the making.

[1:49] Warren Carlyle: I mean, it's amazing. I mean, I have to say it's a really good, really long story. You know, Bruce Sussman and Barry Manilow and I met 30 years ago. 30 years ago, I was a dancer in my former life in the West End of London, and I was in the original cast of Copacabana. So I met Bruce and Barry. I met these two wonderful guys, very talented guys, and we struck up a friendship. And 30 years later, I get to direct their beautiful show, Harmony on Broadway. It's really, really amazing. And you know, the show came to me about four years ago. Bruce and Barry sent me the script and the music, and I read it, and you know, by the end of it, I was in tears. I was in a puddle by the end of it. It's so special. And I begged them, I begged them to hire me, and by some miracle, both Bruce and Barry said yes. So here we go.

[2:43] Jeryl Brunner: It's such a beautiful story for people who might not know it. It's about these very, it's about this very, very successful singing group in Germany, right? In the 1930s, between the two wars, right? They're called the Comedian Harmonists, and they have this beautiful six-part harmony. And they went from being street performers to selling millions of records, making 13 films, working with Josephine Baker, Marlene Dietrich, and at the pinnacle of their success, Hitler comes to power. Some of the members are Jewish, and I'll let you tell more about the story.

[3:31] Warren Carlyle: Yeah, I mean, it's so interesting to tell this story on Broadway. It's, you know, a real true story. When I'm selecting what I watch on Netflix or HBO, it's like the true crime or the true whatever it is, it's the word true. And that's what struck me about Harmony is three Jews and three Gentiles come together in Berlin in 1927. They form a close harmony singing group, very easily, you know, with very little conflict within the group, and they make the most beautiful music in one of the most chaotic times in history. And I just find it very moving. And to be telling this story today, also, you know, it's very, very powerful.

[4:16] Jeryl Brunner: So, what went through your mind where here Bruce Sussman and Barry Manilow, you know, decades in the making come to you four years ago, and ask you to be either the conduit to bring it to Broadway, you know, this beautiful lush production that has it in addition to so much heart, has a lot of humor as well. And of course, yeah, I mean magnificent dancing, and the scenes are off the charts. Yeah, so what was that like for you?

[4:53] Warren Carlyle: Oh you know, it was really amazing. And I had to I said to myself a lot, don't mess this up. Like, really, Warren, don't mess this up. It's so important, it's so important a story, it's so fun a story, too. You know, they're called the Comedian Harmonists. So it has to be funny, it has to be bright. These kids had no idea what was coming, and I think that's what's beautiful about it. It's like no one, no one in the play, in the musical knows how it ends. They just don't know. No one in the world could anticipate how terrible it was gonna be. And that's what's so heartbreaking watching it is we all know. We all know how it ended. They had no idea what was coming. So it's like as much life and as much fun as and as much vibrancy as I can summon in act one, and then act two, of course, starts to take a slightly darker turn, and history eventually overtakes the story.

[5:50] Jeryl Brunner: And what is it like for you to be both the director and choreographer? I know you've done both before so beautifully. What is that like to be that torchbearer of both?

[6:02] Warren Carlyle: I love it. I love it. I love it. It's less dinners, it's less conversations, it's just less dinner. That's how I feel about it. I really, I love doing both. I'm always happy. I'm always happy to be a co-pilot and always happy to sit by someone's side, especially a director I love or respect, or quite frankly can learn from. But Harmony was really great because it's one vision. There is one concept, there's one vision at work, there's one mind at work on that stage. And I think that's what makes it strong.

[6:41] Jeryl Brunner: Yes, yes. And what do you hope people come away with the show?

[6:46] Warren Carlyle: Oh goodness, you know, now since October 7th, I hope they come away thinking this can never happen again. I really do. There's a beautiful thing, you know, so much of the set, so much of the design is this beautiful black mirror. You know, and I it's like I'm holding a mirror up to the audience, literally holding a mirror to the audience saying, This can never happen again. Like, pay attention. And me as a non-Jewish person, I'm bearing witness. I'm holding my hand up saying, look at this, pay attention. This happened once, it cannot happen again, and yet somehow it's happening on our streets right now. So that's, you know, it's a very thoughtful piece. I hope it's uplifting, I hope it's hopeful.

The music is beautiful. Bruce Sussman's book is, I think, astonishing. It's very smart, but it's very emotional. And who does a musical with when the last seven minutes is a monologue? I mean, that's crazy. But for some reason, in my mind, certainly, it works beautifully. I hope the audiences Google the Comedian Harmonists. I hope they think about history a little bit. I hope they think about what's happening today a little bit. But it's a very thoughtful, it's a very thoughtful.

[8:04] Jeryl Brunner: And it's such a commitment working on a show that's Broadway bound, and I think about the legacy of this show and how it was at the theater Volksbühne. It had its Broadway opening. What keeps you going? What keeps you intrepid? Because it's quite the marathon, right?

[8:30] Warren Carlyle: It's such an interesting question. I famously walk my dog every morning. No matter what, between 6:30 and 7:30 a.m., I walk into Central Park. And quite often, and a lot lately, the last week certainly, I just have said to myself, keep going. Keep going. Just keep going. And it's, you know, this business is really, it's tricky and it's really hard, and it is a marathon, not a sprint. It just is. It took me 12 Broadway shows before I got a Tony nomination. 12. I did 12 Broadway shows before I was nominated. And it just, you know, it's really hard, but I do, I love what I do. I'm very, very passionate about it. I really care about the actors. I really care about my collaborators. And I don't actually think there's anything else in this world I can do.

There's nothing, there's no other way for me to contribute other than to continue telling these stories and making these dances and coming up with these ideas and pushing myself, pushing myself and others. I don't know how to do anything else. So I guess I gotta keep going.

[9:45] Jeryl Brunner: Which brings me to your lightning strikes moment from what you've told me in the past. You grew up in a small village, right, on the east coast of England, and your connection to those classic MGM musicals runs deep, right? Didn't you tell me once that you used to watch the MGM movies on VHS, like Easter Parade and Singing in the Rain?

[10:11] Warren Carlyle: So I want to hear about your lightning strikes moment when you knew this was the path for you.

[10:19] Warren Carlyle: Oh good goodness. I mean, that's that's really right. I have to say that's very, very correct. That there wasn't the theater wasn't necessarily available to me. And without aging myself, but yes, I had a VHS videos of these of these MGM movies, and that was that was my access to dance and my access to music. And I I um yeah, and my lightning strikes moment was probably, you know, I I saw the movie Top Hat, and that was when I pointed, I literally pointed to the TV. I was 10 years old. I pointed to the TV and I said to my mom, I wanna do that. I wanna do that. And you know, God love her. She took me to the nearest dancing school and enrolled me, and I put on a pair of tap shoes, and I of course I'm a boy, so I'm noisy and I'm messy, and it's like what could be better for a 10-year-old boy than tap dancing?

And I just I loved it. And that was my that was my lightning strikes because from the age of 10, I have never once looked back. I just I found my what was it about Top Hat? Was it just watching Fred Astaire look so graceful and athletic at the same time? Or what was it about that movie? Yeah, I think you know, it's I remember some kind of like machine. There was like some stairs, and there was like a group of guys in top hats and tails, and he was using his cane as a machine gun, but his feet, of course, were doing the rhythm. That's that's really what I remember about it. And I was so taken not only with the kind of Olympics of it, the athleticism of it, but also the idea. That's that's what I loved.

It was like, wow, this is a great idea. So I now now as I work, I'm more rigorous with ideas and less hung up on steps, actually. You know, a step is a step, it's fine. We'll figure out what the we'll figure out what foot we're walking on or dancing on. That's fine. But actually, what's the idea? And Harmony is a perfect example of that. I do not have a company of dancers. I really don't. I really don't. And going from Music Man with a company of 50 dancers to Harmony with a company of zero dancers was really interesting. And it meant I had to have really strong, you know, the puppet dance ideas. I had to have really strong ideas in order to overcome the lack of steps.

[12:48] Warren Carlyle: That's extraordinary to me when you say that you then live dancers, because there's one particular moment in the show where they're jumping on the box backwards, and my friend and I were just marveling at that, thinking all the pieces of dexterity and skill that it takes to do that, and of course, genius choreography to think about how that tells the story, getting on that box.

[13:21] Warren Carlyle: Yeah. And risk, I mean, that that's about risk too. I mean, it's funny. It's somewhat dangerous because of the material. You feel the control of the Third Reich, right? They're pulling the strings. It's wonderfully dangerous. I like it a lot. I'm I was I was always fascinated by the number, always fascinating. So, how did you get these LAN dancers to do these incredible numbers?

[13:47] Warren Carlyle: Oh, because they're wonderful. That's that's how I mean those men, the whole company of Harmony, they're all they're all wonderful. Those six men are really, really special. They they are near and dear to my hearts. And you know, we worked on it for I mean, this group has been together for three years. Those six men and I have been together for three years, and we've really worked at it, and they trust me and I trust them. And jumping backwards onto a black glass box. It was like it was kind of par for the course. It was like, why not? All right, we're all just we're all just gonna hold hands and leap together and just yeah, sure, jump backwards a couple of times. You I guess they trust that you're the let, you know, that you are the virtual leader and the women are so phenomenal as well.

[14:35] Warren Carlyle: They're very special. It's it's really interesting, and that and that's the balance. That's the beautiful balance is these these men are like they're like a box of puppies, you know. They're they're all over the place. They're they're crazy and they're funny and they're charming and they sing great. And the women have got, they have got all ten toes on the ground, those two women. It's anytime we're with those women, Sierra Boggess and Julie Benko, you know, it's like they're just they are Broadway pros. They ground the show in a really beautiful way, in a profound way. Anytime we're in their company, we're happy. They have extraordinary voices, they're extraordinarily truthful actresses. Those those women are a very, very important part of this of the story. And the way they sing just tells the story on such a deeper, deeper level.

[15:27] Warren Carlyle: Yeah, yeah, and that there's that beautiful duet in act two. I mean, those two women just on the edge of the stage, and that that looks and sounds like Broadway to me. That is that is it. Like, sign me up for that. I think me up. So, how did you go from being a dance class to getting that first job?

[15:47] Warren Carlyle: Oh, goodness, it was, I don't know. I struggled, I don't know. I'd like I fought I fought my way and clawed my way and struggled my way and faked faked my way into some rooms along the way. And you know, I I always had a curious brain. I was always interested in storytelling. I was an English major at school. I I had the strange thing when I was a child of whenever I would listen to music, I would imagine people dancing. You know, and still to this day, I stare at that white picture on the wall and I play music and I imagine people dancing. And that's that's how I do it. It's one of my earliest memories, literally, is is you know, my Sony Walkman and imagining people dancing. And that's what I do for a living.

And it's I've just I've always done, I've always done it. I've always, always done it. Even in my dancing years, I was choreographing for friends, I was doing charity benefits, I was doing gala, I was doing anything, and now I have the amazing privilege and honor of doing it for a living. And and with some of the greatest people.

[16:47] Warren Carlyle: So, what was one of the first jobs you had professionally?

[16:51] Warren Carlyle: Oh, you know, one of my first one of my first ones is a is a real favorite. I was in the West End production of Cats. And I was in year 10. It had been running for 10 years, and I I was in that 10th anniversary cast, and my my dear friend and one of my greatest mentors to a wonderful lady called Jillian Lynn, Gilly cast me in Cats, and I was in the West End in Cats. It really changed, it changed my life in so many ways. It it, you know, Gillian is was a wonderful, wonderful choreographer and director. She always had a reason for something. She always knew why she was doing it on a certain leg or at a certain time. It was always about story. And uh that was my first exposure to to real genius directory.

[17:00] Warren Carlyle: And one of my favorite stories is how you approached Susan Stroman and said, Can I be your associate? Do you mind sharing that story about you and Oklahoma?

[17:53] Warren Carlyle: I love that story. I mean, I and Stro, I mean, she's talk about talk about a mentor. I mean, talk about a wonderful, talk about a wonderful woman, firstly, wonderful human being, and talk about an amazing artist and someone who's contributed so much to this particular art form, and and she's really special. And Stro was the one that kind of gave me my chance. And she didn't know who I was. I saw Crazy for You in London. I thought it was spectacular. I just I loved the choreography. It was, you know, her hand is so visible in that work, and her genius is so visible. It leaps off the stage. And so, yeah, so Oklahoma, she was doing Oklahoma at the Royal National Theatre, directed by Sir Trevor Nunn, choreographed by Susan Stroman, and I wanted to be her associate.

And of course, she rightly said, like, who the hell are you? Like, no, no, no, because that's such a valued, trusted position. And she had an associate from Crazy for You, very famous Stephen Meir, who you'll know because he choreographed Mary Poppins on Broadway and Little Mermaid. He's a wonderful, wonderful director choreographer. So Stephen Meir was Stroh's associate. So, okay, so I come out of retirement, I come out of retirement and I go into the chorus of Oklahoma as a dancer. And after the run at the Royal National Theatre, after five months, Stephen had moved on, I think, to choreograph Sweet Charity in the West End. And Strowman needed an associate, and she hired me. And Sir Trevor Nunn hired me to be his associate director. So after five months, my dreams came true, and I became Susan Stroman's associate choreographer on Oklahoma and Trevor Nunn's associate director.

[19:44] Warren Carlyle: Which is crazy because you know nobody really knew what the producers was or what was gonna be, quite frankly. So Strowman asked me, and could I come for six months and sure? So I I moved to America for six months, and I'm still here. And it's 25 years. It's 25 years and a lot of a lot of gray hairs later. But yeah, and I I came here for six months and lit and never left. And of course, the producers famously became one of the biggest hits in Broadway history.

[20:13] Warren Carlyle: It certainly still to this day has won more Tony Awards than any other production ever. Um, it ran for seven years at the St. James Theater. Between Stro and I, we set seven companies together of the show, traveled the world together, plus the movie with Uma Thurman and Will Ferrell and Nathan and Matthew, and you know, everything that that extraordinary um adventure brought. And it taught me. I got my kind of student driver certificate from doing The Producers. I learned how to do a Broadway show. And what I also love is that here you didn't just accept the low when she said, you know, I already rightfully have an associate. You auditioned, got cast, and then there was this little lone actor at the time playing Curly named Hugh Jackman.

So in 1997, Hugh Jackman and I met at the Royal National Theatre and formed an amazing, I mean, for me, honestly, a life-changing friendship, truly. He has changed my life over and over and over again. He's invited me to collaborate with him. He's continued to be a friend, he's continued to be a collaborator, he's continued to be an inspiration when many times, quite frankly, in my life, I think I would have expected him to move on. You know, as we all evolve and we all change and time passes, I always just expect him to move on to the next person. And he's so beautifully loyal, and I love him so dearly, and it's just really been a very, very fulfilling collaboration and friendship.

[22:05] Jeryl Brunner: And I know you directed his incredible world tour. And there's a really beautiful story about during the pandemic, right? That you worked together, rehearsed three days a week.

[22:16] Warren Carlyle: That's exactly right. I mean, exactly right. I think Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, like 10 till one, Hugh Jackman and I, we were in a studio and there was no one around. I had the key, the gorgeous Butch Greer, you know, Patricia Ripley and Butch Greer. So Ripley Greer Studios is a famous kind of Broadway um studio. They have studios all over Manhattan. So I called Butch Greer and said, "Hey, it's Warren. I don't know if you remember me. I've been renting for you for 25 years. My friend Hugh and I, it's the pandemic. I know you're closed, but could I rent a studio on 72nd Street?" And he was really gracious. And he said, "Here's the key. I'm sending it over. You and Hugh just knock yourselves out, use the whole building, do whatever you need to do, make a beautiful Broadway show, and then when you're done, just add up the hours and send me a check."

I mean that, and that's what we did, honestly, for two years almost Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. And it got me through a really tough time. I was like baking cakes, and I was learning the piano and doing anything I could just to continue creating. But honestly, those hours with Hugh at Ripley Greer were really.

[23:36] Warren Carlyle: And I think about whether Marvel that show is, your choreography is so magnificent. You know, it's epic. Mary and the librarian. I've heard you talk about how the cast is so massive, right? And yet you started with just this one actor, and then you went from what was that like starting with one person and then going from there?

[24:03] Warren Carlyle: It was really interesting. And I have to say, normally, my normal job is to start in a kind of wide shot because you start with the ensemble and you build these numbers, and then you plug in the principal actors, you put them in. Whether we work in the same room or different rooms, it's different every time. And with Music Man, it was really the opposite. And I, because I started with Hugh, I started with this kind of beating heart. I started with the center of the story, and I built from one character outwards. And it was the first time I've had the great privilege of doing that, and I think it made the work so much deeper and so much better, and I think the story was more clearly told through the choreography, and his character certainly was served well.

And the kind of Harold Hill effect, the way he affected everyone he looked at and spoke to and sang and danced with. You know, you could track the changing of the town from this very starchy kind of black, white, grey town to once Harold Hill had touched them, they all turned technicolor. And that was tracked through movement. I mean, and that was the gift that the pandemic gave me was for the first time I was really able to start with the heart of it and work outwards instead of going outside.

[25:25] Jeryl Brunner: What is the yin-yang of you and Hugh? The two of you, what do you think it is that makes you work so beautifully together?

[25:36] Warren Carlyle: Oh, because it's about the work. He's such a worker. He loves working, and I love working too. And we roll up our sleeves together, and we count five, six, seven, eight, and we go. We're also both beautifully competitive, you know. And I wouldn't want to speak for him, but there is a gentle competition of I put my tap shoes on and go, and he puts his tap shoes on and he goes. Like there's a beautiful, gentle competition that started way back when we were doing Oklahoma together and has gently continued. And there's an intellectual sparring too of like, "What about this? What about that?" There's really beautiful tennis.

[26:23] Jeryl Brunner: Do you love that moment when you get that blank page and it's yours, and then you have to look at the screen and imagine what's gonna happen, or what's the real magic joy thing?

[26:35] Warren Carlyle: I love it. It's interesting. I love it and I hate it. Because you know, so often in a script, Kiss Me, Kate is a perfect example, you know, "Too Darn Hot" in Kiss Me, Kate, right? So top of act two, and they sing the song, and then at the bottom of the page it says, "And then they dance." And I read the scripts and I was like, "What do you mean? And then they dance? Like, why are they dancing? What are they dancing about? How many? I mean, what are the sections? Who's dancing with who?" So that was part of it. And the other part is like, "Ooh, great. Now they dance. I get to write these dances." Like, who knows what 76 trombones is? What's that dance? Like, what is that moment? So, as a director and choreographer, I get to literally write my own script on those blank pages, and I do love it as frustrating as it can be, and also as terrifying, you know, there's nothing scarier than a blank page.

Oh my god, now I have to write something, now I have to do something, but I do also kind of relish it. It's a fantastic thing to be able to look at a blank piece of paper or a blank stage or a blank wall and fill that space.

[27:49] Warren Carlyle: I still remember "Too Darn Hot," and when they're suspended all together in the air, it's riveting, and you don't know what's gonna happen next. You just want it to go on and on forever. So, what would you love to do next? What's the dream project, or is it yet to be written, or is there something you can share that you have your eye on?

[28:12] Warren Carlyle: It's interesting. There's a couple of things, you know, I would really love to, before I leave this world, I would love to direct a straight play. I just would love to do a play. And that's just me as a storyteller. I just would love to do it and not in a funny way, rely on music or rely on dance to get me through. I'd love to do a straight play. Um, I had a wonderful time in 2018. I worked at New York City Ballet, and I loved it. I love that company. I go to the ballet often. In fact, in a funny way, I go to the ballet more than I go to Broadway. I just, those dances are so spectacular. They're incredible human beings, and I would do anything to be back in that world again. And I have a couple, I have two, I think, good ideas, and we'll see how that goes.

Um, so straight play, New York City Ballet, and then I do, you know, I'm gently, I've gently started to explore the world of Edith Piaf. She's a very famous French singer. There's something about her life that's really fascinating. Marianne Cotillard won an Academy Award for the movie La Vie en Rose. It's a really wonderful story. So there's something about that that I'm just gently exploring.

[29:37] Jeryl Brunner: Thank you so much for coming on. It's a joy to talk to you and be inspired by you.

[29:44] Warren Carlyle: Oh, you too, you too. It's absolutely my pleasure. Congratulations on Harmony.

[29:49] Jeryl Brunner: Now at the Barrymore Theater.

[29:50] Warren Carlyle: Yeah, thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

[29:53] Jeryl Brunner: Great. It still happens every day.

[29:56] Warren Carlyle: We're lightning style. It's the moment you know.

[29:59] Jeryl Brunner: The theme song was written by Tom McGovern. This episode was edited by Sarah Goodman and produced by Anna Strout.

[30:09] Warren Carlyle: Lightning strikes.