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[0:00] Patrick Oliver Jones: While the goal of every actor is to perform, our day-to-day job is actually auditioning. As we continue Black History Month here on the podcast, Adrienne Walker from The Lion King on Broadway joins me for a very open and candid conversation about being in such an iconic show and the added questions she brings into the audition room.

[0:25] Adrienne Walker: When I'm called in for a leading lady or for her best friend or something like that, I am curious why. Because we haven't moved far enough in the casting process for that question to not come up.

[0:44] Patrick Oliver Jones: This is Why I'll Never Make It, an honest look at the realities of a career in the arts. I'm your host, Patrick Oliver Jones, an actor and singer for almost 30 years, who knows firsthand the ups and downs we all face. The website is Why I'll Never Make It.com, where you can sign up for the monthly newsletter and receive a free copy of the new ebook Creative Wisdom, a collection of quotes and insights from previous guests of this podcast. That and much more can be found at Why I'll Never Make It.com.

[1:26] Patrick Oliver Jones: Since the pandemic shut down all live stage productions here in New York, actors, directors, and producers have gone online in an effort to keep theater going. And one such presentation in December 2020 was the New Works Virtual Festival, a collection of plays and screenplays read by actors. And that's where I met today's guest, Adrienne Walker. She played my wife in a short one act called Now You See Me, Now You Don't. I've included a link to that production in the show notes. Now, although our time together was short in that virtual setting, Adrienne was very natural in the role and made an impression on me. So I'm very grateful that she accepted my invitation to come on the podcast.

[2:12] Patrick Oliver Jones: As I mentioned in the opening for part one of our conversation, we touch on some delicate but very important issues: auditioning as a black actress and the need for authentic black voices in theater. But we start off talking about The Lion King, the show's history, both culturally and theatrically, and the pressures she faced in taking on the role of Nala. All right, Adrienne, it is so great to have you. So great to see you again and have you here on the podcast.

[2:48] Adrienne Walker: Yeah, I'm excited to sit down with you and chat a bit. And you know, we met from afar, and now we're talking again. So this is really cool.

[2:56] Patrick Oliver Jones: The world is getting smaller, right?

[2:58] Adrienne Walker: Yes, yes, it is. Yeah, and that festival that we did. I mean, we kind of just met, hi, how you doing, and then went into the reading.

[3:05] Patrick Oliver Jones: So it wasn't really much chance to get to know everybody.

[3:08] Adrienne Walker: Absolutely. I guess that's just the structure because they cast like I think like 40 different plays or yeah, yeah.

[3:14] Adrienne Walker: I was part of the selection committee. So we were reading a bunch of different plays and choosing this one or choosing that one. And uh yeah, that there were there was a lot to go through. And then, yeah, I mean, what they put together was kind of amazing with uh with that festival.

[3:28] Adrienne Walker: So it was uh I I was impressed with the turn because we don't know, we're just reading on Zoom, and but then they actually turned it into a nice little production.

[3:37] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, yeah, I agree. It was fun. I actually I did too, and that was my favorite of the two. It felt it felt good. Since 2016, though, you've been in one of the biggest Broadway shows that that's around and has been around for a long time with The Lion King, and you've been a part of it for about four or five years now. What do you think has contributed to the show's longevity and its popularity with audiences?

[4:03] Adrienne Walker: I think that with The Lion King, it's definitely um a story that translates over different cultures and different societies, and that's why they've been able to put it over, put it up in different countries all around the world. And I think the longevity of it is just I feel like it's the story, but I also feel like it's Julie Taymor's vision and her direction. You know, they brought her on, she's not your typical musical theater director in any way. And she was very firm in her beliefs and what she wanted and her vision for the show. And I think when you give someone creative license like that, especially when they're coming with a fresh view and a fresh insight, uh, then you allow them a chance to either flourish or flop. And this was a time for her vision to flourish.

[4:55] Adrienne Walker: And I think because it's so beautiful, the puppetry and the uh Garth Fagan's choreography and and just everything and the music, the South African music, it all works in a way where I think, and when they were putting it together in 1996, 1997, that they were just creative machines. And that kind of speaks to the longevity of it, that that because they were their creativity was able to flourish, we're able to see it and people are able to enjoy it and love it. Sometimes when I look at musical theater, um, especially when it gets on that commercial level, I feel like uh everyone's license to be creative is not always um free.

[5:44] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, people aren't always diminished a bit, yeah.

[5:46] Adrienne Walker: Yeah, because the money because of the money and the risk, and you know, is this gonna be mainstream? Are people gonna hate it? Are we gonna, you know, are we wasting funds? And you know, all of that fear comes into play. And um, I don't know what was going on in in 96 and 97 when they were creating this and before that when they were creating it, but I feel like there were some strong voices in the process that said, no, it must be this way. No, I'm standing for this direction. I I understand that you may be fearful or you may feel like this isn't gonna work, but I'm willing to take the risk. Will you join me in that? And I think that that's powerful. And I wanna see more of that in musical theater. I want to see people take more risks because um it's we're breaking out into song. Why play it safe? That's already a very strange thing, you know.

[6:35] Patrick Oliver Jones: Right.

[6:36] Adrienne Walker: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you're portraying animals, you know. So you're already, you know, there's there's already you're kind of regressing back to your childhood where it's like be a tree, be a cat, be a, you know, you know, those those little skits we used to do as children. And I think you're so right that the yes, the the story appeals to to anyone who can come, you know, anyone can relate to some character on stage, but it is that presentation, this the spectacle of that, the uniqueness of the of the choreography of the costuming of the puppetry that really adds to it. And for you, most of your roles have been, you know, where you're portraying an an actual person, a character, and the costuming is just part of that character.

Whereas in Lion King, the costuming, it almost kind of takes over and is the character. You know, that there's there's a lot of puppetry, there's a lot of motion that the masks or things can do. Does that help or impede the acting process when you're starting out?

[7:34] Adrienne Walker: Oh my goodness, when you're starting out, it definitely impedes. It's um for me, it was very uncomfortable. I actually was speaking with Jelani Remy, who was um Simba for quite some time, and the first Simba I ever worked with. And he his friend was telling him that he is kinetically intelligent, you know, that he he understands his body, he knows how to can uh communicate with his body. I am not kinetically intelligent. So uh being taught the Javanese style and Balinese style that they use in the choreography for Lion King was somewhat overwhelming. And then trying to pair it with um whatever motivation my character had in that moment or singing was just so overwhelming. And they know this.

The the creative team and the production team, they they know. So when you come in and the resident directors there and the resident uh dance directors there, and they're they're teaching you everything, they're like giving you just little crumbs at a time because they know that it's like, whoa, what is happening? Um, my body doesn't move this way naturally. How do I make this seem natural and comfortable? And how do I give it direction when you're not kinetically intelligent like Jelani? For Jelani, it's he's like, oh, this is my lane, you know. He's like moving around, and there were times when the rock didn't rise, and Jelani had to create uh this beautiful final Busa moment, and he just walked around the stage and it looked as if that was how the show was supposed to end, you know? And he's just you have to love those actors who can take a moment that is not scripted and turn it into something beautiful.

[9:16] Patrick Oliver Jones: Oh, yes, yes. He's so he's he's so good at that. But um yeah, I did find it to be difficult. I probably will discover that again when the doors open again and we're back in rehearsal and we're figuring out how to move our bodies again. I'm curious what it will feel like to be out of the show for over a year and do these movements again. Will it come right back or will I be terrified again for four weeks?

[9:44] Adrienne Walker: Yeah, I don't know. So there has been no no plans to uh to delay Lion King beyond you know in anything else with Broadway. It's a it's set to come back whenever it comes back, correct?

[9:57] Adrienne Walker: Oh, yeah. The producers have been really firm with that. Uh they've met with us a couple of times to talk about various things, but when that comes up, hey, you know, are you gonna make us audition again? Or is everyone's contract safe? You know, those kinds of questions, they've put everyone at peace and said no one will have to re-audition. We'll do a really nice, comfortable amount of time for rehearsal. They never really said any concrete time.

[10:24] Patrick Oliver Jones: What is comfortable, yeah?

[10:25] Adrienne Walker: Yeah, what is comfortable? Because when I I left Lion King briefly to go do Kiss Me Kate, and when I came back to The Lion King, I had two hours of rehearsal, watched act two, and I was back in the next day.

[10:39] Patrick Oliver Jones: So did it feel like getting on a bike again, or was there a bit of uh what am I doing?

[10:44] Adrienne Walker: Some of it felt like getting on a bike, other parts not so much because there's such a stamina that I acquired in doing the show. With you know, you're talking about the costumes and putting that on, and the the corset is beaded and it's heavy and it's very restrictive. And so when you're doing the show, you work up stamina to breathe and to sing through that. When you're not doing the show, you know, I'm not a runner, I have terrible knees. So building up stamina like that, it really only comes with doing the show. So that that kind of hit me like a brick wall, you know. I'm like out there running and singing and belting, and I'm like, oh my god, I can't breathe, but I have to pretend like I can, you know.

[11:25] Patrick Oliver Jones: So coming into a show with such a long history, did you feel any pressure or responsibility to perform Nala in a certain way?

[11:35] Adrienne Walker: Oh, yes. I felt a ton of pressure, and not so much from the folks teaching me the show. I I put a lot of pressure on myself just in general, and it's something I am working on. I've had a lot of time to sit with myself and sit with my flaws during 2020 and now this year. So um, it's something I'm working through, but I think because uh, you know, Heather Headley was the first Nala, and then you've got Renee Elise Goldsberry as one of the previous NALAs, and it's just you know, such a rich history of the character and who's portrayed the character. I had one of those, are you sure you want me? What moments, you know, when they first hired me, and then wanting to prove them right, wanting to prove to them, well, you made the right decision.

I'm gonna show you that I can do this, that I can handle this. So yeah, that was a battle. And then something clicked, and I just thought, I think I'm doing a good job, and I need to accept that I'm doing a good job and have peace with that and be happy and really start enjoying this experience because it's gonna be gone, and I'm gonna look back and think, wow, did I ever enjoy it, or did I just beat myself up the whole time?

[12:53] Adrienne Walker: Oh, yeah, yeah, that's very interesting. That there always has to come that moment in every show that we're doing where that confidence, where that surety kicks in, and we're like, you know what? I am doing a good job, I can do this. And I think that's when we can really take off in a role. And was there a particular moment, maybe with the director or just yourself that started to really click in for you? I think it happened in different moments or segments because the show is, you know, there's the acting, which I felt came natural to me. I felt very connected with Nala and her motivations and her intentions and what she really wanted. I felt connected with that. Then there was the singing, but singing with the physicality and the corset and the costumes and everything.

And then there was the physicality and the movement. So I felt growth in different parts of those three things. So I would have moments of feeling like I had an acting breakthrough, and I'm like, yes. Or I'd have moments where I felt like, oh, I finally understand the Balinese movement, you know, or I know how to make this happen. And then I'd have vocal breakthroughs and then vocal plateaus and dips, you know. So it ebbed and flowed. It was never a peak of feeling great all the time. I'd have breakthroughs and I'd sail on that breakthrough, and then I'd have a setback. Or I remember the first time during the Nala and Simba fight where I ran. This was actually the most terrifying moment of the show for me.

And hopefully I can overcome that when I go back. But there's a moment in act two where, you know, in the film where Nala and Simba see each other for the first time, but before they know who they are, they fight. Well, in the Broadway show, Nala comes out like a bat out of hell and leaps on Simba. And that kind of movement for someone like me, who has a classical vocal background, who doesn't run and jump on anybody anywhere, was terrifying. So, and it's a trust leap. You run full speed and you leap in the air, and Simba is going to catch you. That is the it's a huge trust leap. So you have to trust your partner and you have to trust just all of it that they've got you and that you know that it's going to be a good outcome.

And so for me, because I'm not a dancer, I think that that was the biggest hurdle, literally, to just jump and trust that he's got me and jump without fear, because the fear was keeping me from jumping high enough. And the fear was keeping me from letting go and jumping in a way where we didn't collide, but you want the appearance to look like we've collided, but you don't want the impact of a collision on, you know, your fellow Simba. So I remember the first time I ever ran, jumped, and he caught me and it felt like butter. And I was like, that's what it is. You know, it's like a huge breakthrough moment. I was like, so it is possible, you know. Right, right. And then it's a matter of doing that every day, eight times a week.

[16:06] Patrick Oliver Jones: Was that fear mostly of your own self and ability, or was it also fear of is he gonna catch you?

[16:14] Adrienne Walker: Well, to be fair, he shall remain nameless. But one of the Simbas was joking that in another company during a put in, he did not catch Nala. And I wish he had never told me that story because it just don't put that in your head. I was done after that, you know, like done. And so that messed me up. And then that we had had a rehearsal where I had fallen, and you know, so things do happen, but here's the gag. It's like, okay, you fall, but guess what? You're fine, you know. So I think I still needed to get past that, even if he doesn't catch me, or even if something goes wrong, I'm not gonna die, you know.

[16:52] Patrick Oliver Jones: Exactly, exactly. Now you had mentioned that you took a break from Lion King to do Kiss Me Kate. And I wanted to ask about that because you know, a lot of us actors were happy just to get that one Broadway show finally, and yet you booked a second one while still doing Lion King. So, how did that process work of being a part of one company while auditioning for another?

[17:14] Adrienne Walker: I think it had a lot to do with me needing a creative break and hoping to hook a fish somewhere. And so my agent had been sending me on a few auditions just to see what was out there, and I went in for Kiss Me Kate, and it's so funny because what they asked me to do in the audition, I was like, there's just no way I'm gonna book this. They don't know me from Adam, you know, that whole like why me moment. And so all they had me do was sing a little bit of another opening, another show. And it isn't even the version that made it into the show. It's it was more legit, you know, more classical, you know, you just go up to a high A at the end, and that was the end. And in my initial audition, I had a little cheat sheet of the lyrics because I always get nervous when a song is very fast and it goes from lyric to lyric, especially in an audition, you know, people are staring at you.

I'm like, oh my god, I'm gonna mess up, you know, and then I'm gonna be lost. So I had a little cheat sheet and didn't look at it. So of course I went off singing other lyrics, and then I was like, I'm so sorry, I have a cheat sheet, and I didn't even bother using it, or something like that. I said, and they laughed and I was like, oh, okay, maybe I've got them a little bit, maybe they like me a little bit. Let's try this again. So then I sang it again and they said, Thank you so much. And I was like, all right, you know, there was no scenes or anything. So I left, and then my agent called me and said, Hey, can you come back on Wednesday morning at 10? And I was like, ooh, yeah, okay, I could do that.

And so I woke up that morning and I went to the park. I live in Brooklyn, so I went to Prospect Park and I just walked around and sang in the park to warm up because I couldn't warm up in my building that early, and I wanted to be able to make sure that A at the end was nice. And so got ready, showed up at the audition and sang for them. And I think the only reason they wanted to see me one more time is because Warren Carlisle wasn't at the first audition and he wanted to, you know, see everybody as well. Did that, and then Scott Ellis got up and gave me a hug, and I was like, oh, that was nice. And then a couple of days later, my agent said they would like to hire you for Hattie. Um, and they're giving you four weeks to speak to Lion King and work it out and see if they'll let you go.

Because I still had when my Kiss Me Kate contract would have started, I still had six months left on my Lion King contract. So they would have had to, you know, find someone. And so I went to company management and they said, hey, look, this is great. We love this for you. Let us make sure that we can find another Nala to replace you before we say yes. And so they went searching for Nalas who were available who had already knew the show and could just come in, they already had a costume for them, that sort of thing.

[20:10] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, that makes sense, yeah.

[20:12] Adrienne Walker: Yeah, and Cindy Winters answered the call. And so I was able to leave. And when I left, yeah, I remember John Stefanik, who's the resident director at the Lion King, he came up to me and he was like, Well, um, you know, just between you and me, we're definitely gonna hire you back for we're gonna renew your contract, but what if Kiss Me Kate extends? You know, what was gonna happen then? And I was like, Well, they're telling us, you know, it's a for sure closing date. And he's like, well, you never know, you know, we you know, it's just like I think it'll be all right, John, don't worry. So I can't, I still can't believe it that I was able to just bounce from another show into Kiss Me Kate and then go back into the Lion King, you know, and everyone was okay with it. So it felt really good, you know. Sometimes it could be scary to ask your employer, hey, can I leave for a little bit?

[21:00] Patrick Oliver Jones: Right, right. Because you do not want to mess up, you know, your term with Lion King, you know, because that show is gonna obviously keep going. Kiss Me Kate has a limited run. So yeah, you don't want to mess up your opportunities with Lion King. It sounds like to me, especially when I sat down and talked with John about it, that they want their actors, especially when they're actors have been there for a while, they want them to be fresh. And if leaving for a bit and coming back makes them renewed, makes them feel renewed and more fresh to do the job, then they're open to it, as long as you know they're covered as well. And so I assume you were gone for what, like three or four months then from Lion King?

[21:40] Adrienne Walker: I was gone for just over six months.

[21:43] Patrick Oliver Jones: So it was six months, okay.

[21:45] Adrienne Walker: It was, yeah. I left Lion King, I think just before New Year's Eve. And then I started Kiss Me Kate January 2nd, and I was back in the Lion King by um actually they gave me two weeks in between. I needed a break because I only had two days off between the two shows. And when I finished Kiss Me Kate, I really needed a break. I needed a vocal break. My voice was done. And um, I had also broken my toe in Kiss Me Kate and never let it heal. So I just needed a second so that I could run in and everything. But they gave me two weeks off and I started back at the Lion King, I think like July 14th or something like that.

[22:22] Patrick Oliver Jones: Wow, wow. And did it feel crazy getting back into Lion King again?

[22:29] Adrienne Walker: It felt at that time, it felt good. Um, it felt really good. But then after a few shows, the old aches came back.

[22:39] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, it's so crazy.

[22:40] Adrienne Walker: It's like I was like, oh, I feel like a new woman. And then like by Sunday, I'm like, oh my god, my knees, you know. So it's interesting how that all happens. I don't know if it's mental or if it really is physical, but um we'll see what happens when we all go back to work.

[22:57] Patrick Oliver Jones: Right, right, exactly. Now, when it comes to the roles that you audition for, what is it that attracts you to a particular show or role?

[23:14] Adrienne Walker: I, you know, I've auditioned for quite a few, not so much shows that are already running. Like I've auditioned for just a couple of shows that are already running, and then I've auditioned for, you know, workshops of shows, and I'm really not one to say no. Like I'll pretty much say yes to just about everything, at least if it's an audition. And um, I think what attracts me the most is when I love the music. Like I've auditioned for a few things where I immediately fall in love with the music, and I know that I love the music if I can learn it quickly, and if I'm singing it weeks after the audition, then I'm like, oh yeah, I remember that. That was fun. That was great. You know, so that really attracts me to auditions.

I've also gone in for stuff that I don't so much believe in, but I think, you know, I'm not a writer, and so you know, this is being produced, someone believes in it. There's a vision, maybe I just can't see it yet. It's always really fun to be called in for stuff that I'm not that I don't see myself in, you know, because that excites me. It means that someone sees me in a way that I haven't yet seen myself. And that means that if I were to book it and work in that show, then I would there would be some growth there because I would be reaching into parts of myself I don't normally give energy or time to. And this is something that in speaking with other people of color that I think someone like me, someone who's white, may not think about, in that whenever I go into an audition, I'm thinking about the character, the scene, the song, whatever.

And I'm not really thinking about my whiteness, so to speak, bring it for you. Is your blackness? Is that something that you feel like you bring into an audition? Is that something that you either need to highlight or diminish depending on the role? How does it feel to you going in and auditioning for different characters?

[25:18] Adrienne Walker: I feel for me, it's always something I'm aware of.

[25:22] Adrienne Walker: It's that's it's never been anything I ever turned off. Being black is something I'm always aware of, especially when I'm called in for a leading lady or for her best friend or something like that. I am curious why, because we haven't moved far enough in the casting process for that question to not come up. Um, and so sometimes I feel like, okay, are they really considering someone that looks like me, or are they just trying to make sure that they continue to call people of color in for all roles? And especially when I read copy that I can't identify with at all, you know, if they if there's a lyric in it talking about blue eyes or blonde hair, it's a little off-putting to sing it. I'm like, are y'all gonna change this?

I know it's a revival, but you know, it's it's that so that's a little uncomfortable, but I don't know. I I haven't, and I'm grateful for this since I moved to New York because I got my theater start in Chicago, but since I've moved to New York, I haven't had an experience in the casting room where someone has asked me, you know, for lack of a better phrase, to black it up or to make make it look more, you know, people like to use the word urban or street or black, you know, but all black folks are different, you know.

[26:48] Patrick Oliver Jones: Right.

[26:48] Adrienne Walker: So I know what people mean when they say that, but uh it doesn't mean that I'm less offended just because I know what it means. And um because it's still based that question is based on a stereotype rather than taking Adrienne for Adrienne or someone else for themselves. It's like, no, we need you to be this black character that we all think about.

[27:10] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, yeah.

[27:11] Adrienne Walker: And I'm I don't really consider myself an Effie, meaning her voice. I'm not an Effie style singer. And I will say that that kind of has come into play throughout my career that people see a black woman and they expect that that black woman can sing that style. And it's just not true. I'm a classically trained singer that can belt because I grew up in a black church, and you know, that was the first singing style that I did learn. But my voice really does um mesh better with a vibrato sound and uh, you know, uh um a fully supported covered tone is more, you know, what I dig. That's more my my thing. So yeah, I feel like that's still something we're working through. I don't I don't know when that will end.

It's it's about what people have decided is true and what actually is true. And I think it's also going to take more actresses like me that look like me to say, hey, you know, I can I actually sound like this. Can I try it this way? You know, actually my voice doesn't do that. And if I sing like that, I'm gonna lose my voice, you know. So I think that that's important too to speak up because we are where we are for a lot of different reasons, but one of those reasons is not feeling empowered to speak up. So if I've learned anything about the, you know, 2020 and everything that has transpired in 2020, it's that I need to speak up more. And I feel good about that. I feel really good about that.

[28:50] Adrienne Walker: And this is just in my own experience. Um, I I happen to be thinking about it. I was talking with my husband, this was a couple of months ago, and we were talking about the casting process and how, you know, since I've been in New York since 2008, I tried to think about the number of black casting directors that have been behind the table. And I can't think of one. There's been, I I remember there's been maybe a couple of Asians, uh, a couple of Latinos, but it's mostly been, it's mostly been women, but it's mostly been white. And I wonder if that is a part of that reason why we why you're still asking yourself that question. Why me? Why is it because I'm black? It's because they want something specific.

[29:35] Adrienne Walker: Yeah, it could be that. Um, I think part of it is just my personality and me working through my uh insecurities and deficiencies. But I think also it is um, you know, a paranoia that that I feel like people are trying to do the right thing and overcorrect. And in their overcorrection, they're not really seeing us or seeing people in their their whole selves because um yes I am black, but I I um I'm also I consider myself a a certain type, you know, within the the character spectrum. And so because of that, if I get called in for something and it doesn't really fit in with the type or what I what I how I see myself, it could mean okay, great, this is a chance for me to grow, but it could also mean, and this is the paranoia setting in, is that they don't see me and they're just trying to fill a quota, and um that definitely comes into the creative process for me when I'm trying to learn an audition, because in the back of my head I have this question of okay, well, why am I being called in for this? You know, what's going on here?

[30:41] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, that definitely happens.

[30:43] Adrienne Walker: Yeah, because when I had Michael Kilgore on, he he brought up the example of Oklahoma and you know, a stage full of full of white people, and then there's this one black couple off to the side. And it's like, wait, what are they doing there? And how why is it that these two people are together why aren't they? You know, so it's yeah, it is I can imagine that it would feel like okay, they're casting directors, they're just trying to placate, they're trying to be this inclusive, diverse company, and so they add a sparkle of color and and then they're good.

[31:16] Adrienne Walker: Yeah, yeah, yeah. A lot of times they call it uh the token, you know, that and I know that that's gonna, I hope it starts phasing out, but I don't know. It's so nuanced. There's so much to it. Because I I I think in general, I think it's coming from a good place of trying to be like, okay, you know, we were recognizing that that a lot of these kinds of shows or or this type of casting has been mostly white, and they're trying to, but it can seem like they're they're just trying to fill a quota rather than yeah. So I think there's going to be that transition of trying to overcorrect forward, it's going to feel like a quota until it eventually it's like now everyone is kind of on the same playing field, everyone is being considered equally, and your your skin color, they're not trying to fill a black hole or a white hole or an Asian, they're just trying to get the right person for the right mix of people. And and yeah, I I think we'll eventually get there. And I think that is everyone's goal. It's just a matter of how we're going to achieve that.

[32:24] Adrienne Walker: Yeah, I agree. And I feel also to that point that when they are trying to fill a quota, sometimes they miss casting the best person for the part. So it's like, well, I just want to see the best person for the part. Yeah, I do want to see some diversity on stage, you know, or craving that, but don't just fill a quota and then you know, hire someone who's just passable, and you know, because that makes us all look bad, you know. It's like, well, see, this is why we don't hire you guys. It's like that's how it feels, you know.

[32:57] Patrick Oliver Jones: Right, which is the horrible place to be.

[33:01] Adrienne Walker: Yeah. Yeah.

[33:01] Adrienne Walker: Exactly. Now, this is something that I found to be interesting. And um, on Disney Plus, they have you know, all these different categories of movies, and one was called Black Voices, and so it's it's you know, mostly black cast of this movie or this this animated show or whatever it is. And the Lion King was on there, and it got me thinking, I was like, why is Lion King considered a black show or a black voice? Yes, certainly on Broadway, it's a majority black cast, but like you said, I I see the story, and you're portraying animals, which aren't any color. So and the story is universal. So do you see Lion King as being a black show or a black voices type of category?

[33:46] Adrienne Walker: Hmm. I guess I've never really given it any thought. And if I go back to my young self that saw the movie in 1994, did I think of race at all? No. Did I say, oh, this movie is about me? No. Um the movie it is about Simba and Simba was voiced by a white actor. And so I I guess I didn't really, I didn't really see it that way. I think um, you know, with the recasting of the film in the 2019 production, there is more diversity in the casting. I think the only reason they might have said black voices is because of its rooting in uh in South African culture and the music. But that that's probably I don't know. I I I I don't know. I don't know. I see a lot of that in the the streaming networks, you know, Netflix has their their uh level of their equivalent to black voices.

I don't know what they call it, the same for Amazon Prime and Hulu, and I I get the importance of that. Uh but for some reason it kind of rubs me the wrong way, and I feel like it's because um it's great to have a a fast, quick way to discover these materials or find them or just you know skim through them, but it also is another it feels like another iteration of white until proven otherwise. For me, if I'm searching for braiding styles, uh if I go to Google and I'm like, ooh, you know, I I need I need uh some inspiration for my hair, you know, I want it some braids, whatever. If I Google braid styles, I'm going to get a hundred thousand hits of white girls and braids. But if I Google black women braid styles, then I finally get what I want.

And that's kind of what walking through this world feels like is just white until proven otherwise. You always have to have a little, you know, prefix to explain it, and then you know, so I'm sure there's people that would disagree with me and that are just happy to see black voices up there as a category on these streaming services. I'm also happy to see it, but I'd be lying if I denied that I also feel these other feelings about it too.

[36:21] Patrick Oliver Jones: With every guest I bring on the podcast and the conversations we have, I pretty much learn something each time or or see something from a new perspective. But talking with Adrienne was rather eye-opening. What she said about white until proven otherwise really struck me and drove home the point that none of us should really have a default setting with how we relate or communicate with other people. It can be too easy to know one, maybe two things about another person, and from that little information extrapolate an entire personality and personhood upon them. If we focus too much on this group or that group, then we can lose sight of the individuals that comprise these various communities. And that's one of the biggest things I love about this podcast.

Getting to sit down with individuals like Adrienne and getting to know them on a more personal individual level. And we're certainly not done yet, so stay tuned for part two of our conversation, where we talk about her weekly series called 32 Bar Cut. We also get into audition specifics and other favorite roles she's had on stage.

[37:41] Patrick Oliver Jones: Music in the episode provided by John Bartmann. Why I'll Never Make It is part of the Helium Radio Network and a member of Broadway Makers Alliance. Join me and Adrienne next time as we talk more about why I'll never make it.