This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Patrick Oliver Jones: When it comes to being an actor, I think one of the biggest long-term goals we all have is a sense of contentment.

[0:08] Patrick Oliver Jones: Now, Oxford Dictionary defines contentment as a state of happiness and satisfaction.

[0:14] Patrick Oliver Jones: Now, happiness comes and goes depending on the role we're playing, the location, the pay, but it's that second part, satisfaction, that can be so elusive and difficult to find, much less maintain.

[0:28] Patrick Oliver Jones: Today's guest has not only found that satisfaction, but has been able to maintain it as well.

[0:35] Ann Harada: Hi, I'm Ann Harada. I'm originally from Kaneohe, Hawaii, but now I live in New York City. And I'm an actor singer, and I've been in the New York Theater since 1987.

[0:47] Patrick Oliver Jones: Ann would be the first to tell you, though, that finding that happiness and satisfaction didn't come quickly or easily for her.

[0:55] Patrick Oliver Jones: In fact, her first Broadway credit came as a production assistant, not as an actor.

[1:01] Patrick Oliver Jones: She followed that up with ensemble roles in M. Butterfly and Seussical.

[1:06] Patrick Oliver Jones: But between those two shows was a ten-year gap.

[1:11] Patrick Oliver Jones: And it wasn't until her next Broadway show that Ann Harada truly made a name for herself as Christmas Eve in Avenue Q.

[1:19] Ann Harada: You think your life suck? I come into this country for opportunities. Try to work in Korean daddy, but I am Japanese. But with hard work, I earn two master's degrees in social work. And now I have database, but I have no clients. And I have an unemployed fiancé, and we have not some film to be me. It's up to be me. I say it's a summer saga, sucker, sucker, sucker, sucker, sucker, sucker. It's up to be me.

[1:57] Patrick Oliver Jones: In our conversation, she talks about those lean years before Avenue Q, but also how she had to continue to work hard and push herself even after her breakout role at the tender age of 39.

[2:12] Ann Harada: You know, I've been working kind of off Broadway regionally and stuff like that, but I would not say that anybody cared or noticed at any point anything that I ever did.

[2:21] Ann Harada: And so it was sort of startling to suddenly be like, oh, she's great. I'm like, well, thank you. Happy. I've been here for a while.

[2:32] Patrick Oliver Jones: Welcome to another episode of Why I'll Never Make It, an award-winning theater podcast.

[2:38] Patrick Oliver Jones: I'm Patrick Oliver Jones, a New York actor and singer, and each week I talk with fellow artists about personal setbacks and professional hardships with lessons we can all learn from.

[2:50] Patrick Oliver Jones: The website is whyillnevermakeit.com, where you can donate, subscribe, and find past episodes. Again, that's whyillnevermakeit.com.

[3:11] Patrick Oliver Jones: Technology has certainly been a big help in making it through eight seasons of this podcast, but sometimes it has its issues, as you'll hear in my less than ideal audio quality.

[3:22] Patrick Oliver Jones: But fortunately, Ann sounds great and offers some wonderful stories and advice throughout our conversation.

[3:32] Patrick Oliver Jones: Hi, Ann. It is so great to meet you, and so great to have you all on the podcast. Thank you for coming today.

[3:38] Ann Harada: Thank you.

[3:39] Patrick Oliver Jones: Now, you were part of the original Avenue Q cast, both on Broadway and in the West End. So what would you say are the biggest differences between performing in both cities, you know, from the production process as well as the audience?

[3:53] Ann Harada: You know, they're both so completely different. When we started Avenue Q on Broadway, we had done it off Broadway at the Vineyard Theater, of course, and it was a big success, and that's why we moved to Broadway. But we had no idea that it would become a success in any way, shape, or form. We just couldn't believe it was happening the whole time. And we were kind of just along for the ride.

[4:13] Ann Harada: Whereas when it went to London, it was an established property. And so they were all very excited to be doing this New York hit. You know, they had been listening to the CD. And I replaced a woman who, the British, as I think of her, the British Christmas Eve, who couldn't go on to do the opening because she had gotten cast at a TV show.

[4:18] Ann Harada: And so they were really in a bind and called me at the last minute. They were, they had already started rehearsals, actually, I think. Or they were just about to, and they were like, could you come and do it? And I was like, guys, I have like a baby and a husband and my elderly parents live with me, and they were like, bring everybody.

[4:58] Ann Harada: And it was Cameron Mackintosh's office, so he kind of had the power to do that to facilitate a whole bunch of visas for a bunch of random people. I was like, okay, if you want to, great. You know, and I set all my conditions, which was like, okay, I have old people and a baby, so I need a flat with a lift, and I need to be close to a tube stop, and I need to be close to a supermarket and a pharmacy.

[5:10] Ann Harada: They were like, yes, yes, yes, fine, fine. Well, well, well, yeah, I mean, they needed you, so I guess you could kind of make the convention.

[5:33] Ann Harada: I should have come up with some better conditions, but that's what I needed. You know, I should have been like, I need a driver. And you know, I mean, I didn't, but whatever the point was, they needed me desperately.

[5:43] Ann Harada: So I knew the show. I walked right in. And it was great. We were very worried that London audiences would not understand all of the American-y, New York-y jokes.

[5:55] Ann Harada: Well, yeah, unless there's a lot of American cultural references.

[5:58] Ann Harada: Yes, of course. But they got them all fine. You know, it's not like we don't all watch the same TV shows. They absolutely knew who Gary Coleman was. They understood everything. They got it.

[6:08] Ann Harada: We changed a few goofy things, like they didn't know what a Long Island iced tea was. So we had to come up with a name like the name of a wacky drink, like a drink that sounds like a really bad idea because that is the drink that the Bad Idea Bears.

[6:25] Ann Harada: It's a Long Island iced tea, right? So we came up with absinthe d'Acquerie, which does sound like a bad idea.

[6:31] Patrick Oliver Jones: Right.

[6:31] Ann Harada: I've had absinthe. Have you had it before?

[6:34] Patrick Oliver Jones: No, it sounds disgusting to me.

[6:37] Ann Harada: It actually wasn't that bad. I had it in Russia. It's the only place I've ever had it.

[6:43] Ann Harada: Yeah, it's definitely very sweet and licorice-y, yeah.

[6:45] Patrick Oliver Jones: Sounds disgusting.

[6:47] Ann Harada: Well, would you say that show, Avenue Q, was the one that really put you on the map as an actress?

[6:52] Ann Harada: Oh, of course. Absolutely was.

[6:54] Ann Harada: Yeah, of course, I was 40. You know what I mean? It was like I'd already been haggling away for forever. And I, you know, I've been working kind of off Broadway regionally and stuff like that, but I would not say that anybody cared or noticed at any point anything that I ever did.

[7:12] Ann Harada: And so it was sort of startling at that age to suddenly be like, oh, she's great. I'm like, well, thank you. Um, happy. I've been here for a while.

[7:22] Patrick Oliver Jones: So really Avenue Q was kind of confirming what you already at least felt or hoped about yourself as an actress as well.

[7:28] Ann Harada: Of course. But so lots of times people don't get that break, you know, and you just don't know what that break will be ever.

[7:38] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, I've been here in the city more than 15 years now, and I'm still waiting for that quote unquote break myself.

[7:44] Ann Harada: Yeah, that magical, that magical role, you know.

[7:47] Ann Harada: Tip Zion, when I worked with him in Les Misérables together, um, he said to me that he felt incredibly lucky to have had two parts that he will always be associated with forever.

[8:00] Ann Harada: Do you know what I mean? Now maybe three, because I think his work in Harmony is one of those kinds of parts.

[8:06] Ann Harada: But um, you know, that he was the baker and he was Mendel in Falsettos, that like people listen to him forever on the CD. They'll he's in their minds.

[8:18] Ann Harada: Do you know what I mean? So for him, that's his legacy, and he's really thrilled to have had two chances.

[8:24] Ann Harada: And he knows lots of people don't get one chance, you know, and I think about that all the time. Like, I've had Christmas Eve, and you know, but like what's will I ever get another chance?

[8:35] Ann Harada: You just don't know.

[8:36] Patrick Oliver Jones: And with regards to that, originating a role as opposed to like you went into Les Mis, you were obviously doing a role that had been done by many different actresses. Is there a difference?

[8:48] Ann Harada: Well, I'm sure you were great, but is there a difference in approaching a role that's a revival that you're stepping into rather than when you're originating? How do you approach that?

[8:56] Ann Harada: Of course, you know, the thing about doing a part that everybody knows, like Madame Thénardier, is that basically you just don't want to mess up.

[9:03] Ann Harada: You know, it's such a well-known show, such a well-known part. Any of the parts that you take in a revival is a well-known part, or else they wouldn't be reviving it.

[9:11] Ann Harada: So everybody knows the song. You can't mess up the lyrics of the song. You know, I mean you're very conscious of like your predecessors always.

[9:22] Ann Harada: What I like about new work, and this is why I'm trying to concentrate on new work and why I've always cared the most about it, is that it's your chance to put your stamp on something, your chance to work with the creatives and say, what about this? Or I think maybe she would do that.

[9:35] Ann Harada: That's the only time in your life you'll ever get to say, I think she might do this instead. Why don't we try it like this? You know what I mean?

[9:46] Ann Harada: There's so little room to do that in a revival. You know, you're trying not to mess up and you're trying not to suck. That's pretty much it.

[9:55] Ann Harada: And that's a drag comparatively to doing a new piece.

[9:59] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, certainly in regional markets, there's a little less pressure because you don't have the eyes of New York on you like a Broadway revival.

[10:05] Patrick Oliver Jones: So a lot of times directors will want to put their spin on a show that's been done many times before.

[10:10] Ann Harada: So, and that's fine. That's absolutely great. If you can justify it, you know, that's fine, I'll do whatever.

[10:17] Ann Harada: I'm up for a lot of interpretations of the classic canon.

[10:23] Ann Harada: But I also think, you know, for me, it's more fun to work on a new, on new material.

[10:36] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, let's get into story number one, which talks about a new show that you were cast in a part that you really wanted, but then the financing fell through.

[10:45] Patrick Oliver Jones: And this is for Gilligan's Island, the musical.

[10:49] Ann Harada: Now I mean it sounds fun already, but what was it about this particular show that made you want to be a part of it?

[10:54] Ann Harada: Well, I had spent like a year and a half living in Chicago. And that's where Gilligan's Island the Musical first made its debut. And it was a very big hit. And so I'd sort of heard about it.

[11:04] Ann Harada: And so when I heard it was coming to New York, I was very excited about auditioning for it.

[11:09] Ann Harada: And I was cast as Mary Ann.

[11:12] Ann Harada: And I was thrilled because I love Gilead's Island, the musical.

[11:16] Ann Harada: We love Gilligan's Island, the TV show.

[11:18] Ann Harada: And I was just sort of like, oh my God, I'll get to play Mary Ann.

[11:21] Ann Harada: I'll get to have a blow for not traditional casting, you know, that they would be willing to sort of stretch their mind a little bit and cast somebody not specifically like the original girl was good.

[11:33] Ann Harada: Um, and I was just really excited about it because I thought, well, it'll be funny and it'll be a chance for me to.

[11:38] Ann Harada: I was this was a long time ago.

[11:39] Ann Harada: What do you do?

[11:40] Ann Harada: We say it was 92.

[11:41] Ann Harada: Yeah, it was like early 90s, yeah.

[11:43] Ann Harada: Yeah, pretty early in the game for me.

[11:45] Ann Harada: And I just thought this will be great.

[11:46] Ann Harada: I'll make, you know, I'll like I'll be able to make an impression with something like this.

[11:50] Ann Harada: I think it'll be a good role for me.

[11:52] Ann Harada: I'm very much a Marianne type.

[11:55] Ann Harada: At least I was then.

[11:59] Ann Harada: Sure, which Schwartz was attached to it, you know.

[12:01] Ann Harada: I just thought this will be fun.

[12:03] Ann Harada: You know, hit or not a hit, I just thought that New York would having a role like that, I would get on the radars of more people.

[12:12] Ann Harada: And I was excited about it.

[12:14] Ann Harada: And then of course the financing fell through, and I didn't get to do it.

[12:18] Ann Harada: Nobody got to do it.

[12:19] Patrick Oliver Jones: How far did it get in production?

[12:21] Ann Harada: Did you even get to rehearsals or anything?

[12:23] Ann Harada: We never we got to the point where we were all cast, and I was like, Oh, great, you know, so and so's doing it.

[12:27] Ann Harada: And then it just never happened.

[12:30] Ann Harada: And it's just one of those things where you're just gonna go, like, what was that for?

[12:34] Ann Harada: What was that all about?

[12:36] Ann Harada: Did they actually call you, or was it your agent that called you?

[12:38] Ann Harada: How did you find out the show working on the case?

[12:40] Ann Harada: Yeah, my my managers called me and said, like, this isn't happening.

[12:45] Ann Harada: They canceled it.

[12:46] Ann Harada: It's like, okay, well, back to the drinking point.

[12:51] Ann Harada: What can you do?

[12:52] Ann Harada: I mean, that's you know Yeah, yeah.

[12:54] Ann Harada: I was part of uh First Wives Club, which which actually did get into production, and we were in Chicago for for a couple of months, and we were I mean, they were still spending money the last week to get us to Broadway because they they wanted to bring it to New York, but then we never heard anything, we never heard anything, and our last paycheck finally came and it was paid through the bond.

[13:17] Ann Harada: Wow.

[13:18] Ann Harada: And for those of you who who may not know, once a show pays through the bond, it means they ran out of money.

[13:23] Ann Harada: They they have no more money left, and so the bond is something that actors equity forces in order to prevent such a thing so that you know your last paycheck will get paid.

[13:33] Ann Harada: So once we heard that, we knew that there were financial troubles, and it never went anywhere beyond that.

[13:40] Ann Harada: So it it does happen because financing shows and producing them, it's it's a it's a rough game sometimes.

[13:47] Ann Harada: Well, yeah, my first job in New York um was as a production assistant on a Broadway uh play called Sleight of Hand, written by John P. O'Meyer, who had written Agnes of God, and it was a thriller.

[13:59] Ann Harada: Um, and this play opened and closed in a week at the court.

[14:05] Ann Harada: Now the James Earl Jones.

[14:07] Ann Harada: And and working in this producer's office, and I, you know, literally, I was I worked for her for for a few years.

[14:12] Ann Harada: Um, but just in the process of that learning about that particular show, I was like, well, I will never be a producer.

[14:18] Ann Harada: I I don't like it.

[14:20] Ann Harada: It's horrible.

[14:21] Ann Harada: Trying to come up with the money, asking people, you know, the whole process of raising money, I think is hard and not fun.

[14:30] Ann Harada: So yeah, I've dipped my toe into it as well.

[14:32] Ann Harada: And it's one of those things where it has given me a greater appreciation for what producers do for sure.

[14:37] Ann Harada: But I think much like you, it it's a job that I don't really like, as necessary as it is.

[14:43] Ann Harada: I just don't think that that's where where I fit into the industry.

[14:46] Ann Harada: Even though I, you know, I'm trying to do my little parts here and there.

[14:49] Ann Harada: But uh course, no, I think we're all trying to do our part to like get stuff produced and encourage, you know, talent that we love and blah, blah, blah.

[14:57] Ann Harada: But, you know, I'm not a producer.

[14:59] Ann Harada: I don't like it.

[14:59] Ann Harada: I don't enjoy it.

[15:00] Ann Harada: There's nothing about it I enjoy.

[15:02] Ann Harada: So I totally get that.

[15:05] Ann Harada: I totally get that.

[15:06] Ann Harada: Well, one of the things that producers certainly do a lot of, and this gets us into story number two, is readings and workshops before it goes into production.

[15:14] Ann Harada: And you call yourself the queen of doing these readings and workshops, but then not being asked to continue on with the production.

[15:20] Ann Harada: You all of Dave, the prom and the most recent revival of 1776.

[15:25] Ann Harada: Yeah.

[15:26] Ann Harada: There's a there's a thrill of being part of the ground floor of a new musical.

[15:31] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, what does it mean to you to be that first actor putting your stamp on a role that that hasn't even made it to the stage yet?

[15:38] Ann Harada: Well, I mean, 1776 was different because of course it was a revolution.

[15:41] Ann Harada: That was a revival.

[15:42] Ann Harada: And that was all women, right?

[15:44] Ann Harada: Okay.

[15:44] Ann Harada: So I had been cast as Franklin in the readingslash workshop, whatever it was.

[15:49] Ann Harada: And the thing that really bothered me about that was that uh ART was one of the producers of that, right?

[15:57] Ann Harada: The tour, the national tour started at American Repertory Theater in Boston.

[16:02] Ann Harada: So they were one of the producers.

[16:04] Ann Harada: And I remember on the last day of the workshop, they were like, everyone, you're gonna come to Boston and it's gonna be great.

[16:10] Ann Harada: And we're gonna start this tour and it's gonna be amazing.

[16:14] Ann Harada: We love you guys so much.

[16:15] Ann Harada: Your family.

[16:16] Ann Harada: And I should have known then, but I didn't.

[16:19] Ann Harada: And then I found out, you know, in Playbill that I wasn't cast, that I wasn't gonna get an offer.

[16:25] Ann Harada: And I was like, great.

[16:27] Ann Harada: You know, this is the part that I really don't like about readingslash workshops that go on to production.

[16:34] Ann Harada: It's like directors at least have the decency to write an email or make a phone call to the actors who are at least an email.

[16:44] Ann Harada: Yeah, I'm not I'm not asking you for reasons.

[16:47] Ann Harada: I don't care.

[16:48] Ann Harada: Just tell me so I don't have to read about it, you know, on the internet.

[16:53] Ann Harada: Like, I just felt like that's so rude and unkind, especially since that actor has already worked for you and put in a lot of effort, and the least you could do is acknowledge that and say, thank you, and I'm sorry.

[17:07] Ann Harada: That's all you have to say.

[17:09] Ann Harada: I don't have you didn't a whole, you know, reason why like we went with her over you.

[17:13] Ann Harada: She's taller and I like her, you know, whatever it doesn't matter.

[17:16] Ann Harada: I don't care.

[17:17] Ann Harada: But it's like um, just you know, just step up.

[17:21] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, the same thing happened to me just a month ago.

[17:24] Patrick Oliver Jones: I'm scrolling through Instagram and this show that I had done regionally, which had aspirations of further development.

[17:31] Patrick Oliver Jones: Sure.

[17:31] Patrick Oliver Jones: So I did the regional production, we're all just kind of waiting to hear.

[17:35] Patrick Oliver Jones: I knew that one of the actresses had been replaced, but they did at least contact her and let her know.

[17:41] Patrick Oliver Jones: So then you know, we're all just kind of waiting, and then I spoke for Instagram and there the one of the writers has our new workshop production.

[17:49] Patrick Oliver Jones: We're so excited to start rehearsals today.

[17:52] Patrick Oliver Jones: I was like, what workshop?

[17:54] Patrick Oliver Jones: What what what are you Yeah, that's how I found out I was no longer part of the company.

[17:59] Patrick Oliver Jones: I would not be moving forward with it.

[18:01] Ann Harada: So yeah, it it's a simple thing.

[18:03] Ann Harada: I'm just sending out an email saying, We're sorry, but we wish you well.

[18:07] Ann Harada: It just something.

[18:09] Ann Harada: Some sort of acknowledgement, you know, that's really that's really all anyone could ask for.

[18:14] Ann Harada: And I just I hold that grudge so deep.

[18:18] Patrick Oliver Jones: I'm with you.

[18:19] Patrick Oliver Jones: I'm with you.

[18:20] Ann Harada: You know, and and I many directors who fall in this category too.

[18:24] Ann Harada: It's not just like one person, it's a lot of people.

[18:26] Ann Harada: And I just go like, do you not realize that I will never work for you again?

[18:32] Ann Harada: I would never listen to a thing you said or trust you.

[18:36] Ann Harada: Like that's just so rude.

[18:38] Ann Harada: I just don't I feel like directors would be better about that if they knew kind of like the ramifications of that kind of callousness.

[18:46] Ann Harada: Especially when they get picky about the people, like some people who may have been in principal roles or bigger names, they'll get the call, but all the other 20 people under them, none of them get a call.

[18:56] Ann Harada: It's it's that kind of pick and cheek.

[18:57] Ann Harada: That's gross, right?

[18:59] Ann Harada: Yeah.

[18:59] Ann Harada: No, it's terrible.

[19:00] Ann Harada: Now the prom and 1776 revival, they did make the way to Broadway, but that Dave, it uh it still hasn't played in New York City.

[19:08] Patrick Oliver Jones: It was uh 2017 workshop that you were a part of before it went to Arena, but you weren't a part of the arena production.

[19:15] Ann Harada: Certainly was not.

[19:18] Ann Harada: Now, Stephanie J. Block was also in that, and she didn't move on.

[19:20] Ann Harada: So you're in good company at least with no, I know.

[19:24] Ann Harada: I but probably the difference between us is that she probably had another job and I didn't.

[19:32] Ann Harada: Yes, that is true.

[19:37] Ann Harada: The three stories shared in this episode are only part of a conversation.

[19:42] Ann Harada: Subscribers get early access to the full interviews with guests, not only including these stories and the final five questions, but audition stories as well.

[19:53] Ann Harada: Join Why I'll Never Make It and help support this podcast, as well as learn more about the guests and the lessons they've learned.

[20:01] Ann Harada: Go to why I'll never make it.com and click subscribe or find the link in the show notes.

[20:08] Ann Harada: And another benefit of being a subscriber, you won't have to listen to any ads either.

[20:21] Ann Harada: Now, moving on to story number three.

[20:24] Patrick Oliver Jones: This is about you not getting Miss Saigon and thinking that you had no future in Broadway.

[20:31] Patrick Oliver Jones: Now, had you felt like this before?

[20:33] Patrick Oliver Jones: Was that self-doubt kind of creeping in even before then?

[20:37] Ann Harada: Yes, I think, you know, it's impossible, especially when you're part of kind of like a minority group, right?

[20:44] Ann Harada: Um, and you have a lot of actor friends within that minority group, and you see big shows coming along, and everybody else gets in those shows, and you don't, you kind of go like maybe this is not for me.

[20:55] Ann Harada: Like, I'm not, this is not what I should be trying to spend my time doing.

[20:59] Ann Harada: Like anytime there's a king and I, I feel this.

[21:02] Ann Harada: I've never been in a king and I.

[21:04] Ann Harada: I cannot get cast in a king and I.

[21:06] Ann Harada: Nobody wants to see me in King and I.

[21:08] Ann Harada: That's probably okay.

[21:09] Ann Harada: You know what I mean?

[21:11] Ann Harada: Like in the long run.

[21:12] Ann Harada: But it just at the time, you're like, what?

[21:14] Ann Harada: Why not?

[21:16] Ann Harada: You know, uh, you just feel like, what's wrong with me?

[21:19] Ann Harada: Why don't you like me enough?

[21:21] Ann Harada: You know.

[21:22] Ann Harada: So anyway, uh, Miss Saigon is one of those shows where literally, you know, I knew everybody in it.

[21:27] Ann Harada: I was friends with everybody.

[21:30] Ann Harada: Um, I just didn't have the skill set to be in it.

[21:33] Ann Harada: And I had to kind of like come to terms with that.

[21:36] Ann Harada: You have to be a dancer to be in that show.

[21:39] Ann Harada: And I'm not a dancer.

[21:41] Ann Harada: And I tried really hard to be a dancer for that show and failed miserably.

[21:46] Ann Harada: All my audition stories are about failing miserably at the dance call, really.

[21:49] Ann Harada: Oh, oh, same here.

[21:50] Ann Harada: I'm not a great dancer.

[21:52] Ann Harada: I can kind of move well, but once they start tapping, and once they start moving their arms different from their legs, I don't know what's happening.

[21:58] Ann Harada: Right, exactly.

[21:59] Ann Harada: Well, and the thing's like, you know, especially like that was back then when I was young, and I could sort of understand, like, they don't know me.

[22:06] Ann Harada: You know, they don't know that I'm terrible at this.

[22:09] Ann Harada: Um, but like, even recently, for soft power, you know, soft power that was at the public theater.

[22:15] Ann Harada: Um, I had to go to the dance call for that. And I was 55. And I knew every single one of those that creative team, every single one of them I'd worked for, including the choreographer. And I was like, you are making me go through a dance call? Don't you know better? Right. You know me. You know me. You know me. It's like, you know that I can't do that. You know that I well, how bad I am. I literally fell down during the dance call.

[22:41] Patrick Oliver Jones: Oh, I've been there, yeah.

[22:43] Ann Harada: But of course, all the other girls were like, oh my god, are you all right? Like, you know, this ancient crone has to be helped up off the floor. And I was like, this wouldn't have happened if any one of you had the sense to go like, why is she doing this? You know she's not going to do well.

[22:59] Patrick Oliver Jones: Oh, I feel for you. I've been the oldest one in the room before. I don't know if you were the oldest in this room, but I'm just saying I know I was.

[23:05] Ann Harada: Well, I yeah, I know I've been the oldest in the room, and I'm like, this is not what I want to be doing with my day or my life. Well, it's just it made no sense to me. I'm like, you know who I am. You know, I mean, I'm a character actor of a certain age. Really? You need to see me try to do this stuff across the floor. Okay. But it made no sense. And then when I saw the show, I was like, I don't even see a part I could have remotely played in this stupid show. Why was I even there?

[23:36] Patrick Oliver Jones: Oh my goodness. Oh well, you know, I was looking at your Broadway credits, and it looked like there was a a 10-year gap between M. Butterfly and Suessical, and that was the 10-year gap of Miss Saigon. So while it was on Broadway, you weren't on Broadway. I'm not saying that there were other shows you could have been in, but I just noticed that there was a 10-year gap, and I wondered if you just decided to focus your energies elsewhere apart from Broadway or what was going on during that.

[24:03] Ann Harada: You think I have a choice about that? Uh I I know, I know I just took work that was offered to me. I went on on every audition I could get. I took I did a lot of off Broadway and a lot of regional theater. Those are the parts that they offered me. Did I want to stay away from Broadway? Nobody wants to stay away from Broadway. We all want to work on Broadway all the time. Too bad for you. Doesn't happen like that, at least not to me at that point. So, whatever. I I wanted to do all of those things, but nobody cares. Nobody cared.

[24:36] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, it is interesting. Once you get a Broadway credit, then you hope the next one comes and the next one. You know, you want it to be a string of things, but anytime there's a gap in it, people can look and be like, Were you working? Were you doing anything else? And of course, as actors, well, no, I'm just doing other jobs. I took a cruise ship or went to a job.

[24:52] Ann Harada: Right, exactly. I yeah. I had a lot of day jobs to fill waiting around or whatever it was. You know, I never stopped being an actor. Just you never heard of any of the jobs I did. Which is fine, you know.

[25:08] Patrick Oliver Jones: What kind of day jobs do you normally do or have you done in the past?

[25:12] Ann Harada: Well, my biggest day job and my most that I'm most proud of is I was a fact checker for Self Magazine, which means that I went to Conde Nast and fact checked all day. And those were the days when there were magazines. Good luck, young listeners. You have no idea what I'm talking about. Um but yeah, my friend from college was the head of the fact checking department and he hired me because he knew I was a fast reader. I could read incredibly quickly.

[25:42] Ann Harada: So I could read articles, I could read whatever source material, whip through it, find the citation, check it off, and you know, verify that it was true. That's what I did. That was my day job for a really long time. And the great thing about that job was, again, because I knew the editor, I knew the the guy in charge, is like I could just go and audition whenever I had an audition. Come back. If I got a job, I went, okay, see you in a few weeks. Bye. You know, th those are like the dream jobs when you can come and go and they recognize that you have other work and you'll take it and then you'll come back.

[26:16] Patrick Oliver Jones: No, it's great to find those kind of jobs. I I have one of those right now myself. So it's been really great to be able to still be an actor and still call myself an actor and do all the auditions and everything, but then no, I have this job waiting for me when I get back.

[26:30] Ann Harada: Yeah, well, that's what my life was, you know, for a really long time. Until Avenue Q, which kind of changed the landscape for me. Um, after Avenue Q, I have not really stopped working for any enormous length of time.

[26:47] Patrick Oliver Jones: Do you feel like the Avenue Q put more of the choice into your hands as far as where you could go, the things, the roles you wanted to do?

[26:54] Ann Harada: Of course, oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Because after Avenue Q, I never had to explain to anybody who I was. You may have to do a dance audition, but you don't have to explain.

[27:04] Patrick Oliver Jones: Of course.

[27:05] Ann Harada: But they knew who I was.

[27:07] Patrick Oliver Jones: Right.

[27:07] Ann Harada: You know. Of course, the dance auditions. Oh dear. Okay. So um I shouldn't have had to do that one. That was just a mistake on everybody's part. I should have just said, like, no, thank you. Goodbye. You know, but yeah, it's the same for me for different reasons. I'm 6'3 and long and just dances don't look the same as me as these great dancer bodies that are, you know, next to me and 25 years old. So it's like two of these things are not like the other. So you should recognize this, especially when you know people behind the table. But uh I feel you. Every single one of them. Like, why are we doing this, guy?

[27:44] Ann Harada: Getting back to Miss Saigon, did it take a while for the sting of not getting that show lesson? As you got more work, did it start to feel like, okay, I can put it behind the code?

[27:53] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, of course.

[27:55] Ann Harada: Well, this is the thing. So, you know, so I'd had my call back and whatever, and I didn't get it, and I was crying, and my roommate was like, Do you seriously think your career is done because you didn't get Miss Saigon? Just like that. And I was like, Well, kind of, because if I can't get into like these big Asian shows, what am I gonna get? And he was like, Ann, do you not see that you have so much more to offer than that? That's not even who you are. That's not even what you're good at doing. You know, it's like you're gonna be fine.

[28:36] Ann Harada: And he was right. But I had to figure that out for myself. That it was like, I, and this is like the number one thing that I believe and hang on to and try to tell every young actor, is that you can only go for so long. When you're young, you try to kind of figure out what kind of slot do I belong to? What type am I? You know, can I be the ingenue? Can I be, you know, the eight oh Annie part? Can I be whatever, whatever slot that you have, and then you try to be that. You show up, you change your dress, you change your hair, you try to, you know, look a certain way, be a certain way, lose a little weight, gain a little weight, whatever it is, right? You're trying to fit a type.

[29:19] Ann Harada: And it wasn't until, you know, even like until it took me till I was 40 to just go, like, you can just be you, and you should just be you, and you're not gonna be successful going after things that are not you. It's like you're okay. You know, you don't have to try to fit into some kind of crazy mold. But it was like you I don't know if you're not old enough, but like in the early 90s, it was like all the girls, we had like a uniform. We all wore like a Laura Ashley dress with a big collar and character shoes. And we walked around like that to every audition because that was what the girls looked like.

[29:57] Ann Harada: I I don't know how to describe it any other way. It's so dumb in retrospect. It's like, who's gonna hire me in a Laura Ashley dress and character shoes? Nobody, I'm not that girl, you know. But I thought I could be, and I thought that's what I needed to be. And so, like, no wonder I never got any work. I wasn't me.

[30:14] Patrick Oliver Jones: Right, right.

[30:15] Ann Harada: You were trying to be something else.

[30:17] Patrick Oliver Jones: I was trying to be something else.

[30:18] Ann Harada: And like, but you know, like, you know, when I was young, when I was first starting out, I was trying so hard to be like an ingenue with like long hair and you know, a girl with a ponytail that you know what I don't know, a tub Tim or something where I was a type that I actually never was, should never have tried to be. But you don't know that when you're young and you're just trying to figure out how to get your foot in the door, and you're trying so hard to like if I do this, if I dress like her, if I do, you know, it's impossible.

[30:49] Patrick Oliver Jones: That's how you are.

[30:50] Ann Harada: And being Asian, did that put you in your own box? Do you feel from casting or even yourself? Did you put yourself?

[30:56] Patrick Oliver Jones: Oh, yeah, of course.

[30:57] Ann Harada: I mean, when especially when I was starting, you have to understand. Um, when I was starting, non-traditional casting was not really a thing yet. Uh and so any job that anybody got was like a miracle. That's why if you couldn't get into an Asian specific show, you just felt like, well, no, I'll never work. Because usually in a mainstream show, just like white people, if you got a part, you'd be in the ensemble, and usually you'd have to dance two strikes, right?

[31:26] Ann Harada: Okay, so um, and I was just like, this is not gonna be for me. You know, like these kinds of shows and these kinds of roles are not gonna be for me. I have to figure out a way to work another way, which is why I ended up working off Broadway and in regional theater. Because those shows were not as mainstreamy, more willing to take a chance.

[31:48] Patrick Oliver Jones: Does that make sense?

[31:49] Ann Harada: Yeah, it sounds like that that you were having to figure out yourself as well as casting in the industry.

[31:55] Ann Harada: Of course. Because it was like, you know, like people would go, like, well, you're talented, but I don't know what to do with you. And I'd be like, well, I get that, because I don't know what to do with me either. But here we are. What are people gonna accept me as being? What kind of parts can I do that pe aren't gonna make people go like, oh no, what you know, what's happening here? And I just feel very lucky that I had some people that were like, she's good, and I want to put her in something, and you know, so what if nobody sees it?

[32:28] Patrick Oliver Jones: Thank you so much for joining Why I'll Never Make It.

[32:32] Patrick Oliver Jones: And don't forget, you can become a subscriber and get bonus conversations by going to why I'll never make it.com and click subscribe or just look for the link in the show notes.

[32:44] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, that about does it for me.

[32:46] Patrick Oliver Jones: I'm your host, Patrick Oliver Jones in charge of writing, editing, and producing this podcast.

[32:52] Patrick Oliver Jones: Background music in this episode is by Blue Dot Sessions and John Bartmann.

[32:57] Patrick Oliver Jones: Be sure to join me next time as we talk more about why I'll never make it.