This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:34] Patrick Oliver Jones: Hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm Patrick Oliver Jones, and today is a special presentation of Why I'll Never Make It.

[0:49] Patrick Oliver Jones: Thank you for joining me for this bonus episode. Now, normally I bring on a guest and I interview them about their own challenges, struggles that they've gone through in this business. But earlier this year, I actually sat down with another podcaster who interviewed me about my own career, this work that we do, and how I make my way through this business. And today I'll be sharing that conversation with you. In fact, stick around at the end of this episode, and I'll be sharing one of the setbacks that I and this podcast have gone through recently. Makaila Nichols is the host of Blatantly Honest. And her podcast serves as a reminder that none of us are alone in dealing with a multitude of social issues, including bullying, body image, mental health, and more. And my particular episode dealt with determination through hardships. Welcome back to Blatantly Honest with Makaila Nichols.

[1:51] Makaila Nichols: Today I sat down with Patrick Oliver Jones. He's an actor and singer who's been performing for more than 25 years. As a performer, he opens up about the difficulties of the industry and how determination is key to success. He also does this on a podcast series called Why I'll Never Make It, which explores the reasons why actors and creatives do not succeed, but more importantly, how they can turn those experiences into something positive. Well, Patrick, thank you so much for being on the show with us today. It's an awesome privilege to have you here. I know this is like not the setting that people are used to seeing on my end. Um hotels, you know, hotels.

[2:27] Patrick Oliver Jones: So yeah, well, I mean, that that that is the the actor's life. You know, we we travel around a lot. And so it's been certainly less here in the pandemic times, but it has been uh it's certainly something that I'm used to, you know. I I've I've even done podcasting out of hotels before. You know, I have my mic with me, pillows set up around me, so I certainly understand traveling and trying to do a podcast at the same time.

[2:50] Makaila Nichols: Yeah, it's uh it's different. And like I forgot, you know, in LA, like there's you know, sirens and things, and it's like, oh my God. So, you know, we're just gonna apologize in advance. If anything awry happens, um I think it'll make for for an interesting podcast. But again, your your story is interesting and you know, your career and everything. So if you were not in the entertainment industry, you know, you're very successful in singing and acting, what would you be doing?

[3:19] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, I've I I've always had an interest in in law and politics. The politics kind of came later, but law and you know, just kind of fighting for for the underdog kind of thing. Uh, you know, so constitutional law, that's more of what uh judges and and and that type of profession do. But something law or political related, I think would be would be interesting to uh actually try. I did I I know it's like a machine to get involved with that kind of stuff, but at least try to to enact some good and and be on the right side of things.

[3:52] Makaila Nichols: Definitely so interesting. And I think right now it's so timely with politics and these conversations and everything. So that's a great field. I I don't know, that involves a lot of reading, I think, and I'm not a reader. Um so God bless people like you because God knows I could not do it, but that's awesome. You're doing this acting thing. When did that start? Was it like you woke up one day and you're like, I'm gonna be an actor? Was it something that you always kind of felt? Because some people kind of just catch the acting bug, and others are like, Yeah, I came out of the womb and I was ready to like do the show.

[4:25] Patrick Oliver Jones: I th I think I would have always had an artistic flair because I I remember because on the weekends my mother would would work at the hospital, and so I would on the weekends be with my grandparents. And they had a piano, and even if I didn't know how to play, I was always plunking it, just kind of pressing the buttons, you know, see what happened, you know, as a you know, a young four or five, six-year-old. So I was always just interested in the sounds and music and that kind of thing. So in third grade is when I joined my church choir, and that's when I started to really learn more about singing and choir and harmonizing together at school. I was also getting those basics of what's a whole note, what's a quarter note, and all that kind of stuff.

So as a young age, I was introduced to music, and it was just something that was fascinating, interesting, fun to me. So that's basically where it started out. And then when I realized that you could combine the singing that I like to do in choir, and then be a character, you get to do lines, you get to be in front, people laugh or they applaud. Then of course, then that that's that for me is when that bug, so to speak, caught.

[5:32] Makaila Nichols: Wow. Also as well, yeah. You usually hear like, I don't know, someone like you said, you know, you're singing in a choir, maybe you did like a monologue. Like I used to hate performing in front of people. Like I would be the kid that would literally fake sick, like we want them to grow up, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I like didn't have, you know, that innate, like, oh, I love this. Like I was terrified of it. And then, you know, life works in funny ways. But, you know, you had that presence. Did you ever think there might have been a social stigma or anything associated with being artistic at a young age?

[6:04] Patrick Oliver Jones: Hmm. I wouldn't say that fortunately, I went to a school that prided itself on the arts. And, you know, as I said, I had music education from elementary school. So that so they definitely saw the the importance of it. So it wasn't so much something that there was a stigma around it. But but I will say that as I got into high school, there tended to be that that separation between those that were maybe more artistic and those that were more maybe athletic. So so that, however, the smart kids were were in both camps. So so that that was at least good. But yeah, there was a definite divide when it came to that. But I never felt like that there was a stigma around it, especially in school. And then once I got into college, I was kind of in my own bubble of theater kids. So we we were certainly protected from it even if it was there.

[6:56] Makaila Nichols: No, that makes sense. I think sometimes, you know, kids kind of they go to a school where it's not as common for it to be like musically inclined or something of that nature, and they kind of have to, you know, go home and focus on that and focus on their careers and aspirations and just getting better. So I like that you brought that up because you know, I went to a school like that too, where it was like you had to pick choir or band. And I was like, I don't want to pick either, but we're gonna pick up I had to do that as well.

[7:16] Patrick Oliver Jones: I had to do that. It was it was either seventh or eighth grade. They said you can only do one or the other. I was like, but I want to do both. No. So I was like, Well, I'm gonna go with choir. And guess what they did the next year? Okay, you can do both. But by then I was a year behind. So I could, you know what? You can't win them all, right?

[7:37] Makaila Nichols: Right, right. So tell me a little bit more. So you went to college. Did you go to college for acting?

[7:45] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, I originally thought, well, I I like sound, I like audio, visual stuff. So maybe like, you know, engineering, broadcasting, something in the technical field like that. So that's originally my thought. And then whenever I I it was Samford University in Birmingham, Alabama, and they had a good music program. So I thought, well, maybe I could go into music. So I got a music scholarship, majored in music, and that lasted all of a semester. Because once music theory was introduced to me, which is like the you know, the the trigonometry math of music, I was like, okay, this is not what I signed up for. So then so then I went to you know, minoring in theater and went back to broadcasting, which is still something I was interesting to me.

And being mostly behind the scenes, doing production, editing, that kind of thing with our uh college news channel that we did was really helpful and certainly benefited me as I got to perform more and do more on-camera work and auditions and stuff like that. So it it definitely helped me. But as far as the actual broadcasting degree, I've I've never used it, thankfully. I've been able to be an actor and just do that.

[9:01] Makaila Nichols: That's awesome. Yeah, broadcasting's cool. Um, I did an internship at a news station, and I was just like, this is just not not for me. Like it's a little depressing. I don't know, nothing against my broadcasters out there. Like I have a lot of friends that are in that field, but I'm like, good lord, like it's kind of sad to be like, yeah, and X happened to these people and blah, blah, blah. I'm just like, no, I can't. Um and it's also hectic because you have to be on call because I there was there was a friend of mine who interned at NBC News and was just on call all the time, long hours. So there's there's also just having a personal life. Like you just you just don't have it, especially when you're starting out.

[9:40] Patrick Oliver Jones: Definitely. So tell me a little bit about this perception and whether this speaks to you directly or not so much. Did you ever come out to LA? I guess I'll ask you that first. Were you like, I'm gonna go to LA and do the thing?

[9:52] Makaila Nichols: Yes. And in 2005, I actually did a short film that was part of the the LA Short Film Festival there. And so that was my first time to go to LA with with any purpose. Uh, you know, and and so the I got to sit in the audience, watch my film, which was great, and just kind of be in that atmosphere of the the film festival and the red carpet, as you know, as much as a a film festival can be, because obviously there are the bigger names, and then there's the rest of us who are just happy to be there. So that was my first time to really be in LA. Um looking back on it, I I don't think that I used as that I utilized it as much as I could have in the sense of you know, the the marketing and the meeting with this person or making this connection or that connection.

I wasn't aware that that was necessary or what that even meant at that time. And it's still something to this day that networking is something that is not my skill set, but I know that it's very necessary for us.

[10:54] Makaila Nichols: See, that surprises me. You strike me as a kind of person who like loves networking and all that kind of stuff, like a people person. But yeah, especially like out here in LA or anywhere, it's all about who you know, who can connect you with, yeah. And if you don't, it's kind of like yeah, it's become an acquired skill. It's it just certainly does not come naturally to me.

[11:15] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah. No, hey, but you know what? As long as you're learning it, like that's all that matters. And I think, you know, even my most introverted of friends, I'm like, listen, like I know you don't want to go to that like networking group or whatever, but like it'll be good for you. Just do it. Uh it's just it's crazy. So you hear about the kid that comes to LA, right? And maybe, you know, like you said, you didn't utilize the time that you wish you would have. So, what about the kid who comes to LA, let's say for pilot season, right? They come out here chasing their dream and whatnot. What advice do you have for those kids?

[11:48] Makaila Nichols: Because sometimes they come out to California and they're like, oh my God, like I'm never gonna make it. I think people just kind of assume like if you come to LA one time, you got this in the bag, like you're gonna be a megastar. What advice do you have for those kids?

[12:03] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, I think first off, let go of that notion. That would be my first advice, because yeah, as cynical, but also as true as it is, as an actor, as a performer, someone in the public eye, you're only as noted, you're only as quote unquote good as your last project. So you have to keep doing projects, you have to keep working, keep kind of building up that resume, going up the next level. So, yes, it's great to have that first thing, but that means you need to then have a second thing and on and on. So it really is not a one and done, but a one and continue. And I think that's the biggest thing that anyone, whether you're coming to New York or LA, you know, if you're pursuing this career, it really is something that needs to be ongoing.

You know, just like I'm learning to network. It doesn't come naturally, but it's something I continue to grow in. That's on the business side, you know, our artistic side as well as our business side both need to grow in tandem so that one project leads to another project, and we build up not only a resume, but we build up that network of people that know our work, that are familiar with us, and really build a sense of community that we can find some support in. Because, you know, nine times out of ten, we aren't gonna book that job. So that one time when we are, great. We have friends, we have contacts, we have networking, but the other nine times out of ten where we're doing our self-tape or just going to auditions, then there still needs to be that support and drive.

And I think that support and drive can sometimes lack when it comes to you feel kind of down, like you know, that nine times out of ten when you don't book something, like it obviously gets to you mentally. I mean, for you, what is that experience like? Have you ever had whether it's like dark thoughts or your questioning, you know, your career path, what does that look like for you and how do you cope?

[14:25] Makaila Nichols: Well, for me, it comes with a lot of self-doubt because especially for myself, I've I feel very blessed in the fact that I've been able to just make a living as an actor. I've had a few side jobs here and there, but for the most part, my career has been acting, has been auditioning, booking those two, three, four, or five things a year, and making a living off that. So I feel blessed in that. But there have definitely been those times where I had a stretch of 11 months of nothing. Nothing was happening. So that's almost a year's worth of, and certainly we're going through that now with the pandemic, but to go through a year's worth of not getting to do what you love to do, then it's like, okay, well, if I'm not acting, then what am I? I'm this actor, I'm this singer, I'm a performer.

If I'm not doing that, then what else do I have? And so there can be a lot of self-doubt that comes with that. And for me, it can kind of mess with me in the sense of I don't really know who I am outside of acting in some ways. And so it's really been impressed upon me, and this pandemic has really driven it home that I have to find things that provide purpose, that provide certainly something to do with my time, a distraction from it, or at least a patch that I can dive into. But definitely something that will wake me up every day because otherwise I'm in bed till 11 or 12 on my phone doing nothing. And that breeds its own, you know. Well, then who am I? What am I doing? So it really is a constant battle to kind of fight those urges of self-doubt and really find something that's meaningful.

[16:10] Patrick Oliver Jones: Do you surround yourself with people who kind of value that as well, like that meaningful connection, that meaningful, you know, purpose outside of acting? Like you said it brilliantly, like I don't know who I am outside of acting. And that holds so much truth. Do you find yourself aligning your friendships, relationships, what have you, with people who are in the same career or people who are outside of it?

[16:33] Makaila Nichols: I would say that most of my closest friends are those that I've met through shows that I know as fellow actors and performers. But at the same time, I would say that my closest friends are those that either have a side job, like a friend of mine, he does tech support. Like he owns a tech support company, and that's what he does to make a living to support his acting, so that one way or the other he's covered financially. And then I have another girl who she is she's one of those free spirits, but at the same time, that freedom allows her to do and be interested in so many things. She's a wonderful triple threat acting, singing, dancing, but she really has a head on her shoulders that has an eye on so many different things. And I think that the people that I connect with most are those who aren't so focused on that one thing, but really have a wide spectrum when it comes to that net that they throw out there of things to do.

[17:31] Patrick Oliver Jones: I love that. Me too. I think it's good to surround yourself with people who are like-minded and who are ambitious because you know, everyone's chasing that dream and chasing that goal. And I love it when people cast are not big because you know, like I don't know, nothing in life is guaranteed. So like you might as well have some different avenues to get to the same ultimate goal. Speaking of that, do you ever find that? I mean, how big is your NAT? Are you focusing in different avenues? Obviously, you've built a really successful podcast. I don't know if you want to kind of dive into that and tell everyone a little bit about what that's about.

[18:06] Makaila Nichols: Yeah, the podcast, it started with a friend of mine about four years ago, and we didn't really know what we wanted to do at first, but then we kind of honed in on this idea of making it, what that means. We kind of had a tongue-in-cheek of why we won't make it, you know, of that here here's this reason, here's that reason. These are the things that are holding me back, and this is well, I'm never gonna make it. And what one of the what with each episode we would bring our own, okay? Well, this week, this is why I'm not making it. And one of the funniest ones that I ever brought was it went back to an audition that I had, and I had a call back, and then eventually they were like, sorry, but you know, he's just not going to make it.

And the director gave my agent feedback and said, He's just too attractive for the role. I'd never gotten that before. So it's random stuff like that that is why we don't make it, is why we don't get cast in this show or that show. So that's the kind of things that we would talk about. As he moved on to greener pastures, I took the show over and became the lone host, and I started to focus more on the guests, the interviews that I would bring, and we would get into basically the realities of this business. So the conversation stayed the same, but it was really about what is it that that's holding you back? What is it? What are those times when you felt like, you know, maybe this isn't for me, and how did you overcome or deal with that?

And that has been basically my own struggle, which is I think why it's so personal to me, and why throughout this pandemic I was able to just devote so much time to it because it's what I was feeling at the moment, you know, why I'll never make it. That has taken on so much new meaning in this last year. And so people have really been able to share from their heart whether it's the pandemic, whether it's racial issues, whether it's family life, whether it's there's so many different causes of our own journey and what leads us astray, or where we go off the path because we don't have confidence in what we're doing. So there are many reasons why we go off that path.

[20:14] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well said, I think I have to listen to your podcast first and foremost. I think that sounds awesome. Like, why I'll never make it. Going back to like auditions for a second, for just because you said that, and I was like, oh my God, like he's so right. Like I've been told, like, oh, she's too pretty. And it's like, why is that a thing? Like, they're like, oh no, she looks like too clean, like, you know, let's mess her up. And then so I get that, not to be like, oh, I think I'm pretty, but it's a thing you hear and you're like, what? Like, why is that a thing? Like, why I'll never make it? Because X, does that ever mess with you like mentally? Because obviously you can't change how you look and how you are, and like neither can anyone else. Does that ever make you question like your overall appearance and like your own body image of yourself?

[21:02] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, I would say that as far as the intrinsic things, like I can't change how old I am, how tall I am, the color of my hair, you know, these are things that can really be the reasons why casting directors don't cast it. So those kind of things, yes, it did take me some time to get used to that being a reason. But I would say that that was an easier reason or an easier thing to get over than my own actual failings, be it that I've messed up the song in that particular audition, or I've forgot my lines on stage, or you know, the different things that I did, either just out of my own preparation or I was just having a bad day, or whatever it is, the things that I feel like I can control, those are the things that even years later I'll replay in my brain and like oh that time, whenever I lost that line, you know, and the things that will like there's an audition where I remember where I was coasting on, it was great, and then I chose the wrong song, or at least in my mind I did.

I chose the wrong song, and everyone behind the desk was going, okay, thank you. But it was like going smoothly up until then. So it's things like that that I still remember, and that was seven or eight years ago, and I still still have it in my brain.

[22:21] Makaila Nichols: I think you're so right with that, because like we were talking about that, and my brain immediately goes to like three auditions where I just like it's it's like kind of traumatizing. Like whether you forget your lines, like, or you know, you start singing. I don't sing, no one ever would want to hear me sing it would not be pretty, but like, good lord, like if you're singing your song, you know what, you feel it and go for it, like why not? I don't know. I think casting and auditioning, like that's a whole experience in itself of just like anxiety, but it's also really great because you get to show off your craft. So, with that being said, what is your favorite thing to do between acting, singing? Is it a combination of both? Like, where do you fall with that?

[23:03] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, musical theater is what got me in this business, so to speak. So that's always been my main goal and main thrust of the kind of work that I do. But I've fit here and there been able to get in some plays and then branch out into TV work, mostly commercials. That has been as far as my on-camera stuff. Commercials have been my biggest mainstay when it comes to finding work on camera. And with commercials, I think commercials probably have taught me the most about auditioning, not taking things personally and going for it.

[23:38] Makaila Nichols: Because you have these weird auditions where at one moment you're having to pretend you're doing slip and slide. I've had to wrestle blow up alligators. There I I've had the most random things. And I and then and then there's the where you're on teleprompter going, and now I'd like to introduce you to, you know, and so I've had everything in between. And so commercials really taught me to just let go of whatever I think I need to do and just do what what's called of me in the room. And it really get uh those kind of auditions got me out of my head and have helped me with the the on-camera TV auditions as well as the the stage auditions.

[24:20] Patrick Oliver Jones: I can't imagine just like you trying to fight like a wrestle like a blow-up. Like I'm trying, like I look at you and I'm like, huh. I'm like thinking about it now. I booked that job. I'm just gonna say I booked that one. Was this the first time that you've wrestled with blow up alligators?

[24:39] Makaila Nichols: The first and only time, yes.

[24:42] Patrick Oliver Jones: Wow.

[24:43] Makaila Nichols: Oh my god. Yeah. I there's some interesting uh commercial auditions just from you saying that. I I am like, wow, I I would pay money to go watch people audition for commercials. Like if this is what it was, like that's a show in itself.

[24:57] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's uh auditioning itself is just a whole other genre of performance. There's acting for stage and then there's acting for an audition. While the baseline is the same, you you want to bring a good character and prepare, but the the mindset and the truncating everything you know into your 90-second audition as opposed to a two-hour show, it's just a different prep, it's a different skill set.

[25:25] Makaila Nichols: And that was something that it took me a little while to catch on to that because I was approaching my auditions the same way that I would approach my scene work or other things, and it's just a little slightly different.

[25:36] Patrick Oliver Jones: Definitely, I think that's great advice for for the actors and singers and other like artistic people listening because you're right. Like I kind of never really thought of it that way. But now with a self-tape, what you have 90 seconds to say, hey, this is me, and this is why you should hire me in that span. And it's weird. Like, I mean, even with reading with people, you're reading with either you know your voice recorded on your cell phone or something like that. Just it's a weird vibe.

[26:02] Makaila Nichols: One of my final questions to you might be what advice do you have for someone who might hear this podcast and go, like, I've always kind of been interested in that world. Like, how do I go about it? Should I go about it? What advice do you have for that kid or adult?

[26:19] Patrick Oliver Jones: Right. Um I I would say that be realistic about you know, the fun that you can have because we we get to play different characters, we get to be in different scenes, or you know, whether we're singing it or speaking it. So so there is there's there is fun to be had, and so definitely approach it with fun. Because I I think a lot of times, especially those of us who've been doing it year after year after year, there can be just a jaded, all right, I know what I'm doing now, no big deal. But there is there's some fun to this, you know. We're not doing brain surgery, we get to just play around and and and have fun on stage, but at the same time, it is called show business for a reason because there is you know, we we have to be like an entrepreneur ourselves.

We have to take care of uh of the marketing, especially now on social media and how we brand ourselves and the different type of characters that we want to do, how we uh how we approach mindset and how we deal with our finances. So there's a whole real business behind it, and so yes, I think it's good to take that acting class, see if you if you really do like it first. If you if you want to have fun with it, take an acting class, a beginning class, and see if you really like it, and then as it progresses, as you feel like you're getting better, then start to tackle well, what does this mean from a business side? What does this mean for me actually putting together an audition, putting together a self-tape? Where do I go to find those auditions and and and how to submit them? So it becomes a whole business once you find out if you really love the acting part.

[27:56] Makaila Nichols: I love exactly how you talked about that. You love the acting part. I think people conceptually sometimes are like, oh, I love it. But then when it comes down to like doing it, they're like, oh crap, like this is not for me. And I think that's very evident sometimes. You know, you get the people that go out to New York City, LA, and they're like, yikes, like people, some people don't think like acting is like serious. I'm like, no, no, no. Like these are the most serious creative people you will ever meet in your whole life. Um, so that was again brilliantly said.

[28:28] Patrick Oliver Jones: So tell me, Patrick, a reason why, instead of why I'll never make it, why will you make it?

[28:34] Makaila Nichols: I'd like that. I like that. Okay, all right. I'll I'll I'll flip that on its head. Why I will make it, I actually have to think about this. Because it well, I mean, because I I'm I'm so so used to there being hurdles, and it's like, okay, what am I gonna do to get over the next hurdle? Okay, keep going, keep going. But the things that the thing that comes easy to me is that I do have a belief that that I I will make it. There is apart from all the self-doubt and and the the times whenever I I feel like I'm not doing my best, or I feel like uh you know, but maybe I should just go back to you know, go back to Orlando because I lived there for a time and and do something else in New York isn't for me.

When I I don't listen to that voice, because deep down inside of me, there is an ultimate belief. I I know that I am good enough, I know that I can do this, I know that it's it's it's what I if there is such a thing as having a calling to acting, then that's that's what it feels like. It feels like that this is what I was meant to do, and so that inner subtle confidence that I'm on the right path and I just have to stick with it because if I if I veer too far off of it, which I have before, then I start to feel uneasy. I start to feel like, what am I doing? But if I get back on that path, the solid path that I I've been on, and I've been trying to make it these many years, then that's really where it feels like home. So it's it's it's really just about sticking with with that.

[30:08] Makaila Nichols: See Kachi off guard, and that was your answer to that. And that's that's all I could have like asked for in an answer ever, because it it's right. It's like you're on this path, you have found your calling, and of course, there's always going to be a fork in the road, so to speak, and it's how do you get back to that path? And clearly you're doing it and you're inspiring other people to do it. So I thank you for for opening up, sharing your story, sharing a little bit into the insights and into the mind of an actor and a singer and everything like that. It could be a scary place.

[30:40] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, well, yeah, it's for sure. It's got its uh there's a lot that goes on in there, especially for for the creative mind. But um, thank you for for sharing yours with us.

[30:50] Makaila Nichols: Well, thank you. It's been a pleasure talking to you. I really did have a great time meeting and speaking with Michaela. If you'd like to check out her podcast, Blatantly Honest, then look for a link in the show notes.

[31:07] Patrick Oliver Jones: As I mentioned at the beginning of this episode, I wanted to share with you a setback that this podcast has recently gone through. Now, this whole month, if you've heard the intro to a lot of the episodes, I've had a survey that I've been conducting, trying to get feedback from you and wanting to know what's working, what isn't working with the podcast. Well, as it turns out, I did get more than 160 responses, which is great. Except for the fact that pretty much all of them turned out to be either spam responses or just people using the same generic or unhelpful responses over and over again using a different email. After looking through the 160 plus responses, I think I found one respondent that was an actual person that took the time to go through and answer the questions with some actual thought and insight.

And as it turns out, this respondent was kind of lukewarm to the whole podcast. It gave some very direct criticism of things that could be improved or things that could change. But again, it's one response, so it's hard to judge how that opinion fares against other people like you who listen to this podcast.

[32:26] So the first survey I had got seven responses. The second survey I did got about five, and this one, it looks like got only one. And it appears that that may be the direction that this podcast is going. I love producing this podcast and bringing these episodes and conversations to you each week, but I've learned over the last six or seven months that engaging with you, the listener, is not that easy. It's not something that comes naturally to this podcast for one reason or another, and I'm certainly going to take my share of the blame for that.

[33:05] So, to be blatantly honest with you, this podcast is going to go through a reassessment, a reevaluation as far as what I can do, what I can bring to this podcast, and the direction it's going to go in the future. Now, this is not to say the podcast is going away. No, I will continue doing this podcast. I've got many interviews in the pipeline that are coming over the next few months, and I look forward to bringing those conversations to you. And the new release date of episodes will be on Mondays instead of Wednesdays going forward. But I do need to reevaluate how this podcast can better engage with you, the listener. As I mentioned in that conversation with Michaela, networking, reaching out, marketing, that's not exactly my strong suit. It's something that I'm getting better at, and is certainly something that's a big component to podcasting, but it's one that I'm having to learn as I go along, and it is certainly one reason why I'll never make it.

[34:11] All that to say that this podcast is certainly something that I love, and I know for the handful of listeners that do love this podcast as well, I am so grateful for your support and for your continued listenership. And hopefully over the coming months, I can get better at growing this podcast and its reach to a bigger and wider audience. So until further notice, the newsletter will continue, the bonus episodes and way for you to support this episode, should anyone choose to, will continue. All that can be found at why I'll never make it.com.

[34:54] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, again, I'm your host, Patrick Oliver Jones. Why I'll Never Make It is a part of the Helium Radio Network and a member of the Broadway Makers Alliance. Stay tuned next week as I talk more about why I'll never make it.