(This is an auto-generated transcript, so please excuse any typos or other grammatical errors.)

Hi, my name is David Bushman. I'm originally from Appleton, Wisconsin, where I went to high school. I left shortly thereafter to move to North Carolina to start training. I currently live in New York and my job title right now is swing and dance captain for Chicago the musical.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

All right, well, welcome, David. It is such a pleasure to meet you. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

David Bushman:

It's my pleasure.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Now, this fall marks 29 years of Chicago, the revival on Broadway, which is kind of remarkable considering that the original 1975. Excuse me. Yeah, yeah. The 1975 production only lasted two years. And, and, and it is certain it's played in three different Broadway theaters during that 29 years, with Ambassador being its current and longest running home. What would you say has been its secret to lasting so long.

David Bushman:

You know, I. I think the 75 production was very cutting edge, but it was. It was probably before its time and that moment in Broadway history and also in just where we were as a country at that time, A Chorus Line won the Tony, the best musical that year. And we needed. I mean, the general consensus is we needed something uplifting and like, you know, this. Something that was gonna leave everybody, you know, have everybody leaving the theater singing and just. It was just much more uplifting in terms of a story. I think Chicago was, you know, it's political satire.

David Bushman:

It's. It's. It's a satire in the American justice system. You know, we were at a time when we were dealing with a lot of things. I think it found its place in the 90s and. And it has stayed relevant because of the subject matter and also because I think that this, the. The show, the style, what it was time for, Faw dancing had already happened, you know, so we knew what Fosse was by that point. But Annie, I think, really wanted to honor Bob by bringing it back and saying, you know what? We're going to give it a chance at Encores.

David Bushman:

You know, Encores is a series that gives shows a chance to have a second life, even if it's just going to be a concert or a short run. It was perfect timing for all elements. And I think that there was a. There was a belief that it wasn't going to last for more than six months. And then they were, oh, we're going to. We're going to move to. From the Richard Rodgers to the Shubert, because it obviously has more life, there's more demand.

David Bushman:

And when the movie came out, because everyone was thinking, oh, it sort of had its day, it had its national tours. The movie, the movie breathed new life into it, but O.J. simpson happened. You had all this very relevant stuff happening in the news about celebrity and celebrity getting off in. In a court situation. So I think that it has stayed relevant because this is our world that we live in now. It's this really amazing satire and the material stands up. You know, it's this.

David Bushman:

Everyone just keeps wanting to see Chicago again. Japan keeps bringing back the show, the tours. They do their own Japanese version. It's been set all over the world, and artists, everyone clamors to be in the show. There are people that have auditioned for the show 30 times, hoping it's going to be that one time that they're going to finally book Chicago, you know, and the producers are also Very smart about finding.

David Bushman:

Ways to, to bring in celebrities who can handle the material and who have something very specific to bring to the role. Specifically Roxy, but also the Billy's and sometimes the Mamas, Mama Mortons. You have people who are bringing their own take on a role. And you know, we do work sessions with them to make sure that they can handle the, you know, the demands of it. But I think that there's a. They've been very smart about finding ways to highlight and to showcase people and also use the, the show as a platform for both that artist and for the continuation of the show. It's constantly bringing in new audiences for, for the show. People would never come to see the show probably if they, if that particular celebrity wasn't in, oh, we need to go see that person in Chicago.

David Bushman:

And you're constantly renewing this audience. It's kind of brilliant.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

What do you think that balance is between, you know, some would call it stunt casting and then the show itself. Being the star of the show. What do you think that balance is?

David Bushman:

I mean, I honestly, as a dance captain, I get to work with these people from the ground up, you know, so very much in the way Anna Reinking worked with people in the business. Triple threats. She never cookie cuttered anybody coming to the show. She never said, you're gonna do what this person did. She always created on that person. So I do the same thing in my work when I get to know somebody, when someone comes in, what are their strengths, what are their weaknesses? How can we really use what they have to bring to the table that is going to not water down the material, but show them off in a way that says, I understand who this character is and I have a good amount of what I.

David Bushman:

Have in my, in my. Whatever it is, my notion of what the, the show is or that role is to bring that role to life. You know, there was a review for Melanie Griffith when she went into the show. You know, can't act, can't sing, can't dance, but you have to go see her in the show. That's kind of the ultimate stunt casting idea that people have said, oh, you know, Chicago's just stunt casting. Well, even star quality. The whole idea behind Roxie Hart is she's, she's ambitious and she wants to be a star. You cannot get closer to that storyline than a celebrity who all their life they just wanted to be a star.

David Bushman:

On some level, there is a, there is a connection to the role. I think there have only been a handful of people, maybe even less than a handful of people that just didn't work out because on some level it, perhaps the material or what was being demanded of them just was beyond them for the most part, in my experience, almost everyone that I put in the show, we have found a way for them in and a way for them to be celebrated in that role.

David Bushman:

I honestly think that there is a balance because it's in the story. Roxie Hart, she, as the director often likes to say, she stumbles up. You know, she's not as smart as Velma Kelly, but she learns on her feet and she just keeps going. And she's got this ambition and you have to like her. She has to be likable. So when we bring in people, you know, the, the, the challenge is to make these killers in the story. You know, they've, they're both basically in jail because they've, quote, unquote, you know, murdered someone. So the murderesses, the, you know, the, the Mary murderesses are, you know, the cell block.

David Bushman:

They have to be likable on some level. Roxy and Velma are likable.

David Bushman:

These are themes that are universal. You know, a lot of us, you know, we have, we can't identify them with them as being in jail, but we have ambition. And that goes beyond people in the performing arts. We actually have to have a lot of ambition in the performing arts. It's too hard without it. But everyone in the world can identify with that. And so when we see celebrities who we already know in another context coming in and embracing the challenge of learning how to do these steps, whether they have dance in the background or not, have they sung? Do they know how to sing? Can they hold a tune? There's a lot to assess and say, can they handle this material? And so if there's a basic understanding and then we say yes, you understand what is being asked of you. The audiences love that these people bring their celebrity to these roles.

David Bushman:

I mean, Billy Flynn is the same idea. He's a self made man. He was brought up on the wrong side of the track and he makes something of himself. That's an American story.

David Bushman:

The themes are universal and they're timeless.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, I think it's fair to say that unlike the stars of the show, you did not seek out to become a star when you were first getting started because you didn't even audition for your first thing until junior high and you hadn't seen theater. You really didn't know much about theater at that point.

David Bushman:

I didn't know anything about theater. I mean, the closest I got to the arts was my brother played the piano and my, you know, my sister played. I literally had no idea. Movie musicals were the one thing that made me go, what is that? You know, so we watched those growing up and. But I had no notion that that was even something that I wanted to do. And one day I was literally looking at the local newspaper and I saw, oh, there was an audition notice for a show at the local community theater. I was like, I'm gonna go to that. I have no idea what made me.

David Bushman:

I was, I'm gonna go. We literally sang Happy Birthday for the vocal, and then they gave us a little dance combination, you know, and it was for a production of Shenandoah. They weren't. I found out later they weren't even looking for anybody the course, but they decided to have the audition anyway. They were looking for one person in a lead. But the thing that happened there is that a fellow who knew the director very well, who was actually. He was going to be the lead in the show, saw me dance that little simple dance combination, and he said, that kid can dance. I learned this years later.

David Bushman:

That person actually ended up becoming. He was the poet in Kismet that I did, like, two years later.

David Bushman:

You know, small community. But the idea is that there was. There was something there that somebody else saw. And I think actually that's a really good point to make, because people who have the. Whether they know it or not, but there's some ambition, there's some idea, notion that they would like to do this. Very often we are. We are led by people in the business or by school that see something in us and they push us. And I think very often, you know, for those of us who think I'll never make it, know that you have sources, you have people, you have teachers, you have.

David Bushman:

People who follow the arts. You know, maybe they're just benefactors for a theater and they say, oh, I like that person. I'm going to follow that person there. There are sources that we can count on as we're. We're, you know, vying to be a part of the industry.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, you kind of lead us right into your first story, which is about that production of Kismet. And this was your very first theater performance. It's a local community theater, as you said, Kismet. This is back in Appleton, Wisconsin. And what's interesting is that my very first professional show was also Kismet in Somerset.

David Bushman:

No way.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yes. Kismet was my very first. Brilliant. And I mean, it's a kind of a random Show. Not many theaters do it, so. So it's kind of an unheard of show. To many people, it is.

David Bushman:

In fact, I. I didn't know the show existed. I mean, at this point in my life, I didn't really know names of shows. You know, my choir director in high school was the one who said, you should come and do this show. And I was like, okay. You know, up to that point, I was just singing in the choir. That was it my freshman year. And so when I.

David Bushman:

When they. When they asked me to come in and do this.

David Bushman:

It was my first time being in a cast and trying to ascertain what is this, you know, vocal rehearsals and then getting up and staging this, you know, the show. And, you know, you're really literally learning on your feet what is this, you know, and so I learned a ton in that, you know, pretty meager theater, and got to know, you know, the sort of, the powerful people in that community who were doing shows and getting to know, because that was one community theater. There was another in my. In my community as well, in Appleton, and they shared artists. You know, it's a small community. So I got to know these people over the few years that I. That I was there in high school very well. And.

David Bushman:

And again, people championed me. The directors who got to know me.

David Bushman:

I mean, after Kismet and again, Kismet was, you know, no one there really. Again, I met people there who had done other community theater with that. That production company, but there wasn't real dance. There wasn't, you know, like, they were obviously good singers, really good singers, actually Lawrence University teachers. And. But I was. They asked me to be a whirling dervish in that show. I was like, okay.

David Bushman:

And there's a picture of me jumping up in, you know, doing a second position jump, right? One leg, one foot is flexed, one foot is pointed. I have no idea what I'm doing. And the fellow who became my mentor over the years had kept a picture of me in that split jump, basically saying, this is to keep you humble. Because I had never taken a dance class. I didn't know. He's like, you couldn't do that now if you tried, right? So that was green, green, green. And. But what was great about that is the next year I auditioned and got the part of Aug in Finian's Rainbow in high school.

David Bushman:

The following year, I got the Prince and Cinderella. And the last year, one of the directors that I'd worked in community theater with brought me over to his high school to do. To be the leading player in Pippin. So I have these people saying, you are talented, you need to dance, you need to do this, you know, consider this beyond high school.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And, and did it start to sink in or were you still kind of looking elsewhere?

David Bushman:

Well, I, people, you know, I, I. My senior year in high school, two of the gentlemen, two of the boys, basically the two of, two of us, two from that high school where I would do Pippin and myself decided to go take a ballet class. We were like, why not? We're gonna go take a ballet class. They didn't stay. I stayed because, because the, the, the, the teacher said, you, you have a facility for dance. And you know, I started with five year old girls, you know, beginner, beginner, beginner class. And 10 weeks in, she said, I'm going to send you to North Carolina School of the Arts to audition for their dance program. I mean, I couldn't do a full ballet class.

David Bushman:

I could do up into center a little bit.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Now, was this off putting? Was this awkward? I mean, like you say you're with children, like you must feel behind in some way.

David Bushman:

Very, I mean, so this is my theme. I felt behind the whole time and it's going to take me through my career. So obviously I left the, the, she put me right away into the immediate intermediate class. Like after 10, like after four weeks, she said, no, you get into the intermediate class, I'm going to push you. The good thing is, is she sent me off for that audition. They accepted me. She could have held on to me as a teacher saying, you just, I want, I want to be your, you know, the creator of David the Dancer. And she said, no, you gotta go.

David Bushman:

You're, you're 18, you have to leave. They took me on potential essentially.

David Bushman:

So the, the second year at North Carolina School of the Arts, they did this interdepartmental production of Kiss, of Kiss Me Kate. And so it was the first time I was in a musical with serious training to do this work. And I again felt like a fish out of water. I didn't know I had my community theater, but you know, you're, you're a big fish in a small pond and suddenly you've got all these people who are super talented and, and accomplished at a certain level. I was still playing catch up in my ballet classes, much less doing, you know, a musical with people from the music department and the, and the acting department.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Now at this time, were you learning the different skill sets? Obviously ballet is different from musical theater, different from jazz, different from tap. Like it's kind of like all these different dance styles.

David Bushman:

So when I went to North Carolina, I thought, oh, I get to do it all. And they were like, no, no, you have to choose one department. And I had auditioned for ballet, so I decided to stay in the ballet department with a modern minor. So I learned modern dance and there was a little bit of jazz, but it was really mostly ballet was my focus. So my dream of being in musical theater that had just germinated in high school was put to the side. And I thought, you know what, this is an interesting sort of point to make because we talk about people's paths. Every single person who, you know, dreams of or is, is training to be in the business. Your path is completely your path and you just never know where it's going to lead.

David Bushman:

And I thought, well, I'm giving up my dream of being in musical theater to dance ballet. I ended up having a 17 year career as a ballet dancer. I danced for North Carolina School of the Arts before it became Charlotte Ballet. Then I came back to New York and I danced for Elliott Feld for three years. And then I went off to. I auditioned for Legrand Ballet Canadiens, which was here at City center in New York. It just happened to be here. I decided to go to the audition.

David Bushman:

They hired me. And that's an interesting story too, because for people who just don't have an idea, but they take risks. I saw that company. I had already told Elliot that I was going to stay for another year. And I saw the company and I said, I did the audition that Friday morning. That Friday night. I went to see the show and I loved it, the ballet. And I said, I'm either going to dance for that company or I'm retiring and I'm going to start auditioning for musical theater.

David Bushman:

The next day I went right into Elliot's office and I said, I'm retiring from your company. I'm leaving. He's like, you just told me you were staying. I'm like, nope. And I didn't tell him why. I said, I gotta go. I left that, that meeting with him on Saturday morning, went back to City center, saw the show, the second program, went backstage to say hello to somebody I knew. And the director called me into a dressing room and said, we want to hire you one male dancer that they were looking to replace.

David Bushman:

And there were like 40 people in that, in that audition that morning on Friday. Again, it's this idea that there has to be a certain amount of faith that you take risks, that you say, oh, you've got to follow your gut. I just, just knew I had to just change that up. I couldn't stay at Elliott Feld anymore. And I think, you know, there are times in this business where people will be in a show and they suddenly get an offer for another show and they say, oh, should I, should I leave? You know, very often somebody just got hired for a tour and then suddenly they get a Broadway offer and you're, you're really literally between a rock and a hard place. How do you negotiate that, navigate that in your, in yourself? And I think that your gut is really important in those situations. So here I was again being led. No, we're offering you this job.

David Bushman:

So I left. Still not in musical theater, but I ended up having a nine year career with, you know, stint with Legend. And.

David Bushman:

It was only that I only danced. But it was a tremendous experience and I did a ton of work and a lot of it was preparing me for what was coming next, even though I didn't know it because it wasn't just classical.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, because it seems like as we were talking about with Roxy, you, you kept stumbling upward. It's like, it's like without even meaning to, it's like another right place, right time, another opportunity.

David Bushman:

This is key for people to know in this business, not everybody stumbles up. A lot of people are putting in the work and a lot of people are always saying to me, it wasn't just all these chances that came from everybody else. You did the work. And without knowing that, without really sort of giving myself credit for that, I kept making myself available for the opportunities when they were there. Didn't see them coming necessarily. That's not true. When I, when I saw, you know, I decided to make that decision to leave Elliot. Even when I left North Carolina School of the Arts, I was like, I'm gonna go to New York.

David Bushman:

I'm supposed to go to New York, you know. And Elliot Feld had an audition. He didn't hire me. Then I called him like a couple of months later and said, I'm going to be in town, I want to audition again. He's like, okay. Got my own personal audition and he hired me. You just have to keep putting yourself out there. But it also, it, there is something to be said for, oh, somebody's got an opportunity.

David Bushman:

Don't say no. BB Neuwirth used to always say, and this is what I heard from somebody else when she was doing Chicago, if you get an opportunity to act, you take the opportunity. If you think it's below you and you have nothing else going on. Take that job. Because you never know where that job is going to lead you.

David Bushman:

It's easy, I think, sometimes for people to think today, the way we're training and the way, you know, the. There. The pool is huge. And you think, oh, no, I'm just going to wait for the big. The next big thing or the big thing, actually. You're going to learn more in the chorus than you have any idea. You know, what. What.

David Bushman:

What you could learn in that situation. You're gonna. It's like an old. The idea of a rep company. You're brought in and you're gonna hold the staff in a Shakespeare production, but you're gonna see all these people working around you. It's the same for dance. We learn from the soloists and the principals in a ballet company. So it's the same idea for the theater, like, if I get a job in the chorus, but I get to watch these people, the leads, working and see how they work.

David Bushman:

Most of everything that I learned in the business was by watching other performers.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. I remember whenever I was doing Kismet, you know, my first job, it was with Rebecca Luker. Like, she had been brought back to Birmingham to do this, to do the. And she's singing, and this is my beloved. And to stand off stage and just watch her sing, that was. Was amazing. Yeah.

David Bushman:

The woman who performed that role in that community, she was brilliant. I will never forget her. So. So, yeah, we've been marked. We were marked by these people we learned from. I actually worked with Rebecca in a workshop performance of Little Dancer, Susan Stroman's little dancer. She was doing the old Marie. That was just an amazing opportunity to see her work and to.

David Bushman:

And to be with her in that.

David Bushman:

So I retired from Les Grand Ballet in 2002.

David Bushman:

Not sure what I was going to do, but I thought, okay, I'm kind of done. I'm going to see what's next before we get there.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, yeah. I want to make sure and hit these stories as.

David Bushman:

Oh, yeah, we haven't talked about Brigadoon. Sorry.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Right, right. So let's get into story number two. In the midst of this ballet career that you've been having, all of a sudden, musical theater kind of comes back to you. And this is a summer stock theater in Cape Cod, and you got to do Brigadoon and not only perform in it, you also got to choreograph it as well. So now you're wearing two hats.

David Bushman:

So nervous. I was so nervous because.

David Bushman:

The director was a director. At North Carolina School of the Arts in the acting program. I knew him. We didn't know each other well, but he wanted me to come in and choreograph. And I thought, you know what? Why would I say no to this? You know, I was on hiatus, but I. I really literally have to. Had to think, okay, can I do this? And I hadn't sung for quite a few years, really seriously. And suddenly they hired me to do Charlie Dalrymple, high tenor.

David Bushman:

I was like, I have no idea if I can pull this off.

David Bushman:

So, you know, it. It's one of those things where you just say, you know what? I'm going to get there, and I'm going to find my way through this. And you do your homework the best you can. Get to know the script, you know, do all the things that you need to. And then you get there and you realize, oh, I. I'm an accomplished dancer. None of these people really dance. So I can come up with choreo.

David Bushman:

That's going to work for the show. It's also, you know, the stage at Summer stock, it's in Monomoy Theater in. In Chatham, Massachusetts. It was tiny. So I really had to be very clever about how I use the stage, how I use these. These actors and these actresses. And it went. It went quite well.

David Bushman:

I mean, from what I understand. And it was a great learning experience, too, because I was working with actors who move. How do I do that? That was a big learning curve for me as well. But I remember the director always having to, like, get me out of my body as a dancer and just be a human being. You know, when I was in the role, look, it was a great experience. And it wet my whistle again. I was like, oh, I've got to do musical theater again at some point. This is at a time when, you know, Jerome Robbins, Broadway and all these other shows, and I'm like, I'm missing that.

David Bushman:

You know, it's sad. You know, I thought this. I'm missing these glory days. We look at them now as glory days of dance on Broadway because those. All those shows were happening, and I thought kind of missed the boat there.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

But did it make you hesitant to go back to your ballet career after.

David Bushman:

Kind of. Kind of, yeah. But I didn't. I really didn't know how I would do that. Do you know, I already had, you know, signed the contract for the following, you know, the upcoming year with the ballet company. But part of me seriously considered. Is this the time? Is this the time to actually say, no, now? I'M now I've really got the bug back. It's bit me again.

David Bushman:

I need to go to New York and just open that door. I think there was some fear. You know, I knew the ballet world. It was something that I knew and I, and I didn't have to risk, you know, going there and thinking, oh, I didn't. I know nothing about this world and it's New York. All these, you know, accomplished musical theater people.

David Bushman:

Again, my gut was to stay with the ballet company.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And you mentioned doing the role of Charlie. Yeah, yeah. He's a high tenor. He sings one of, one of my favorite songs, I'll Go Home with Bonnie Jean, one of my all time favorite musical theater songs.

David Bushman:

Absolutely. And then Come to me, Bend to me. They couldn't be more opposite. And you're like, oh, my God.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. What was it like getting. I mean, it's one thing you knew about your body. You knew how to move your body and do the dance. But singing was a whole different muscle again.

David Bushman:

And acting, I'd never, I mean, I had done high school musicals. You know, it's not really a, you know, a standard that you can base yourself on. You're like, okay, yeah, no, whatever. I, maybe in that situation, I was the best person for that role. But I'm with real actors, you know, having to pull this off. So it was, it was nerve wracking. But, but I also remember thinking, this feels amazing to do, to be back in this world.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And also exhausting if you're, if you're acting and choreographing.

David Bushman:

Oh, it was luckily, you know.

David Bushman:

In a summer stock, you know, you're, you're rehearsing one show in the, in the afternoon, you're rehearsing a different show in the, you know, morning, afternoon, and then you're doing the show in the evening and you're just constantly sort of, you're, you're managing all that material. This was the first show of that, of that season. So I was only dealing. Oh, thank God. But no, it was, it was very rewarding because I proved to myself that I could do it, that I could actually hold my own amongst actors and singers in this, in this work and.

David Bushman:

Produce choreography in the style. I mean, I made myself, Charlie Dalrymple, one of the sword dancers, because that's what you do. So Harry Beaton and I were the ones who were doing the sword dance. But look, you, you have to be savvy in that situation. Much, much like someone has to be savvy when they go in for an Audition for any show. You know, you have to know what's being expected of you, and then you have to find a way to shine in that situation. You know, you. You have prepared material, but then they say, well, what else do you have in your book? And then you, oh, okay.

David Bushman:

There is a. There is a savvy that you develop as a performer that starts in auditions and then you bring to the, to your work when you finally book your gig. The learning never ends. But there's a certain sense of, I know what's expected of me. I'm going to show up. I think there are times when people think, oh, you know, when people come in to audition for Chicago, they think it's just all that jazz. That's easy. And then I spring a ballet combination on them because I want to see their technique first.

David Bushman:

And so you just never know what you're gonna. What you're gonna. What's going to be asked of you in an audition. So the best thing you can do is just be prepared for anything.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And whenever you were choreographing, were you also a part of those auditions? Did you get to bring people in.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

For.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Brigitte?

David Bushman:

So, no, I actually ended up having. I inherited that castle. That whole summer stock program had already been cast, and. And.

David Bushman:

There was a little bit of leeway that I had. Who was I going to use where choreographically? But no, I kind of had to work with the people that I had, and they were lovely. Like, you know, the idea is that I'm. I'm not going to treat you like, you know, talk down to you, as I'm the dancer here. And so you, You. You end up. You have to empower people. And I learned that early on.

David Bushman:

Even the way I hold an audition now and the way I teach a class now, it's not in any way.

David Bushman:

I don't use my position in place of power. It's really about empower. I want the best out of you possible. It's a good lesson. I've worked with certain people in my past who were more of a tyrant. And you ended up dancing or performing out of fear. I, I do think that I developed thick skin because of that. I think a lot of people can point to at least one figure in their training as, oh, my gosh, I couldn't ever please that person.

David Bushman:

There is something to be said for, I'm going to work, I'm going to go beyond myself. But I, I never want to feel like I'm, you know, in, you know, abusing someone in any way as I push them beyond what they think they can do.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Would you say that there's a huge difference then between musical theater and ballet as far as that discipline, as far as that type of personality?

David Bushman:

The, the.

David Bushman:

The discipline in ballet is so extreme because it's not natural for the body.

David Bushman:

But I, I have experienced that in a different way, but it's the same idea in musical theater.

David Bushman:

And it's more about how I, how I conduct myself in a rehearsal or the respect that I have in a rehearsal room. But the dedication and the determination to, to go beyond what you think you can do is very, very present in ballet, in, in dance specifically, modern and ballet, but ballet specifically, because it is so not natural to the body. That's why we take classes every single day as ballet dancers. But I think that, that I've worked with people in musical theater too, who are, you know, very hard to please as well. I don't think any art worth its weight is. It comes easily. I think that you, everyone has to know what that work ethic is. Even Anne Reinking.

David Bushman:

There were times when she would be tough on us in rehearsal. And, you know, she would ask me every once in a while when I was putting a star into the show, have they cried yet? Because everyone has a moment in their process where you just break down, I can't take it anymore. She cried with Bob, you know, so if you're, if someone isn't being pushed beyond what they think they can do, they're not actually going to arrive to what they need to do. And I think that, that, that kind of dedication, you know, they say that this line of work is, if you can do anything else and be happy, you might consider the other thing, because this is hard.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And for you, since you stumbled into theater from the very beginning, was there ever a thought of doing anything else?

David Bushman:

No.

David Bushman:

I mean, once I found ballet and musical theater was still always on the back burner. But once I found the theater, I'm going to just say theater, globally. Dance, music, opera, theater, straight theater and musical theater. Once I found the theater, I was like, there's nothing else I want to do. You know, it just spoke to me and I was like, I can't think of anything as anything else I'd rather do. Teach. Yes, but that's still part of the theater.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, let's get into story number three. We've been talking about your ballet career, which was a 17 year career in the classical and contemporary ballet. But then you finally got the chance to return to musical theater, and this was in 2003, whenever you got to join the company of Chicago, this was the French company, correct?

David Bushman:

Indeed so. And there had already been international companies put up around the world, but. But Paris, France never wanted their own. Their own production wasn't really a thing there at the time. Like. Like strictly American musical theater just wasn't a thing.

David Bushman:

So at one point. So I. Yeah, I spent a year kind of wondering what I. I didn't know. I mean, I had a relationship in Montreal. I was living there. My life was there. There was some theater there, but most of it French.

David Bushman:

And I was speaking French by that point, but I didn't really know where I was, what I was headed toward. And I seriously considered. Well, I started doing a little bit of opera training. I thought, you know, I. I've never really pushed myself vocally that way. I found a good teacher. I was working on tenor arias. And then I found out that Chicago was coming.

David Bushman:

The New York team was coming to Montreal to audition for a French production. I thought, are you kidding me? Of course I was going to go. And there were already. There's a good pool of performers in Montreal who are more variety dancers. They sing and they dance, but they're, you know, it's. It's there. It's almost their equivalent of vaudeville from back in the day. And so there was a pool that showed up, and I immediately recognized Gary Christ.

David Bushman:

Who.

David Bushman:

Dance supervisor current of the Broadway company, but he has set the show all over the world. He saw me and we knew each other because he had set up a ballet piece from David Parsons on North Carolina Dance Theater back when I was, like, in my early 20s. And he literally said to me, little David Bushman, because I hadn't seen him, you know. And so we did the audition, and that then seemed to go well. And I sang my first song in English from my book. And that all went well. Seemed to go well. Anyway, got called back.

David Bushman:

I said, I'm going to sing a French song this time, show them that I can speak French. So I did sang that French song. They were like, oh, you sing, you sing. You know, you speak. And I was like, yes, I do. So here this American, you know, who's going to, you know, pull off this French musical. But it was obvious to them that I was going to be hired. I still thought I felt imposter syndrome at that point, because here's this musical from New York.

David Bushman:

I was a dancer. I didn't. I just didn't even think that this was going to be, you know, it was going to Happen. And I should have thought, well, you have the technique. And he's obviously looking at technique. But I didn't take it for granted that I had it until the. After the second callback. And I thought, oh, I think that's.

David Bushman:

I think we're heading in this direction. And I. And I booked it. Look, it was. It was amazing to go into the first vocal rehearsal and be learning this with French Canadian actors. So there was that whole learning curve.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And was the whole show in French language?

David Bushman:

Yeah, the whole thing. And they said it was universal French, so they wanted to get rid of all the Quebecois isms out of it, but.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And what does that mean to us non French speakers?

David Bushman:

So it's. I like to say the equivalent of Quebecois is almost like rural America. You know, it's this colloquial way of speaking the language. The French like to call them les cousins. The cousins. The French cousins.

David Bushman:

So there's a lot of very colloquial things that they were like, nope, the pronunciation. We're doing universal French. Get rid of all those things. So I did that in 2003, and it was like putting on a glove. Like, it just fit. Fosse fit.

David Bushman:

Being back in a music rehearsal again, learning, you know, being back in the. In the rehearsal room. We had six weeks to put up the show is. It was unbelievable. And getting to work with the New York people. The New York company was. It was meant to be.

David Bushman:

That that cast was brought to Paris the following year. And we did it in. In, you know, they did another translation because the Parisians wanted a different translation. So that. And then. And then that translation was. It is. It wasn't quite right for them yet.

David Bushman:

So then there was yet another translation with the tiniest bit of, you know, tweaks. And that drove the principles crazy. But it went very well.

David Bushman:

And I left that. That company. They extended. I couldn't. I couldn't extend. I had things back in Montreal and I get a call asking if I would like to join the national tour in. In English, the national tour here in the States. And I thought, oh, my gosh, I get to do the show in my own language.

David Bushman:

Which was. Which was like. I mean, this kind of was a dream. I thought, oh, my gosh, I'm doing a national tour. So it was. Again, I didn't even have to audition for the show. They just. They just asked me.

David Bushman:

They invited me. They had one vacancy. The tour had gone on hiatus and it was picking back up in the fall. Sorry, July. So, yeah, I joined the national when.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

It comes to these different productions, is it always the same team that's doing it as far as the pretty much director, choreographer?

David Bushman:

Yeah. So the people who put up the, the French production, Gary Crist and that team, he was still involved in that, in that rehearsal process in for the New York company for Sorry for the national tour.

David Bushman:

But the director, Walter Bobby was actually in that first rehearsal too. So. And Gary was like, you better get this scene right because Walter can be tough. And I thought, oh good lord. You know, so, you know, another, another hurdle. But it went, it went very well. The second year into that tour, I did that tour for three years. I became dance captain for the tour and I was also dance captain in Paris with that, with that production, French production.

David Bushman:

So I was starting to really, you know, find my way in the world of Chicago at that point. The national tour ended in 2007, or actually I should say the union tour ended and it went non union after that. So I thought I was done and my life was back in Montreal. So I moved back to Montreal, worked with Cirque du Soleil, found out that was not for me. I love the theater. Cirque is, isn't quite that it wasn't the same sensibility. So I thought, no, did a production of an original production of the Jazz Singer, a musical in Montreal in Yiddish and America. Sorry Yiddish and English.

David Bushman:

Had to learn some Yiddish. Just trying to find my way.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And through all this was, was New York because you had gone to New York at one point, was there a thought of going back as music theater?

David Bushman:

There was, but I had a life. I was literally married in Montreal. Like I had a life back there. That relationship came to an end in 2009. So I had only two years where I thought, what's happening? I don't. Cirque du soleil was in 2008. Kept sort of flirting with the idea of coming back to New York. I did, I came back, I did some auditions.

David Bushman:

I eventually did a. I came to New York in 2010 and I did a year long theater.

David Bushman:

Conservatory. So I just concentrated on acting. Thought I'm done dancing. I think I'm just going to concentrate on trying to book, you know, television, movies, theater.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And with regards to that, because yeah, a dancer career is 15, maybe 20 years if you're lucky, maybe. And so, so the body starts to tell you, hey, let's do something else for a while.

David Bushman:

I mean, yeah, I literally stopped because I said I can't do a 90 degree arabesque anymore. And it's not you Know, I'm not going to ask out of my body anymore. When I booked Chicago, I. Well, this I can do. I had done a little bit of rehab for a back injury while I was still in the. In the dance company, but I was good, so I. I can do this show, you know, and I felt strong, but I didn't have any illusions that I was going to come to New York and book Broadway. The Broadway company at that time, the.

David Bushman:

The aesthetic was, you know, you had Greg Butler, big, beefy, you know, Fred Casely, and all the other guys were, you know, muscly. And. And Gary said, he's like, yeah, you're not the aesthetic. We're the every. Everybody. It was like Paul Taylor dancers. They were all big, beefy guys. And I thought, okay, well, that's not going to happen.

David Bushman:

I gave up on the idea. And I thought the days of moving out and all those kinds of, I'm. My body won't do that anymore.

David Bushman:

You know, I was in my 40s, you know, at a time when you say, when dancers start to think, what else am I going to do with my life?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Right.

David Bushman:

So I really did kind of say, well, okay, that's. But while I was doing that acting conservatory, I found myself literally on the subway platform after my day dancing on the platform, going, something. I'm itching to dance, you know, So I was still taking ballet classes now and again, just, you know, for the fun of it. And I went back to Montreal for a bit because I had some things to tie up there. I said, no, I'm moving to New York. That is. There's no doubt about it. I don't know what it's going to be, but I'm going to move to New York.

David Bushman:

My life, my personal life is over there. And I got a call while I was in Montreal asking if I would put up the next national tour of Chicago.

David Bushman:

I dusted off my dance captain book. I was like, I think I can do this, you know, So I. Sure. So I went to. Came to New York in 2013, put up that company.

David Bushman:

The producers came to see that out in Seattle, Washington, and they were very pleased and almost immediately said, would you consider Broadway? And I said.

David Bushman:

Yes, yes, please. Whenever that might happen, yes, I'm open to that idea. And in 2014, I got the offer to come in and be the dance captain in a swing with the show again.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Again, it's something. Right place, right time, it stumbled into your lap.

David Bushman:

And I wasn't done with dancing. So I'm, you know, we had this Discussion. A little earlier, I made my debut in a Broadway show, a dance show, at 50 years old. You, you cannot, you don't write that. You say, surely I had, you know, Broadway experience. You know, a lot of my friends who've done all these other shows. So again, it's a little imposter syndrome. Again, you're thinking, okay, I've done the show already, but now I'm on Broadway and I'm, I'm literally, you know, dance captain for this show.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

But the thing is, you had known the show Chicago, you had known it for 10 years by this point. So it.

David Bushman:

Oh, yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Still, it was in you.

David Bushman:

It was. And it literally like, you know, it's one of those things. Like I've done every role. I mean, not the ladies roles, but I've, I've done. And I haven't done Billy. I know his material, but I haven't done it. But I've done Amos, I've been Mary Sunshine. I've done them all.

David Bushman:

There is something to be said for this idea of paths. You don't, you don't know where things are going to lead you. But I think at the end of the day, people who know your value and who know.

David Bushman:

Know what you bring to the table will continue to want to work with you.

David Bushman:

So I put up seven tours. The first one was before I was hired by the Broadway company, and then six after that while I was on the, in the Broadway company, put up those national tours until it went non union again.

David Bushman:

And it's a responsibility, it's an honor. It's all those things because at the end of the day, this show is still running. We started the conversation There, you know, 29, almost 29 years later, the legacy and the importance of that legacy, not just as a show, but for every performer who's coming in and welcoming them in. You know, it's not a revolving door. But there have been plenty of people that I've taught the show to. The majority of people in the company now are people I put into the show. And I don't take that responsibility or that honor lightly. And you know, to the best of my ability, I, I go back to my moments when Anne was in the studio and what was important to her.

David Bushman:

And every time Walter has a rehearsal and I just, I take copious notes so that I'm keeping up with where the show is now. You know, people say, have there been big changes? No, not big changes. The show is what it was at. Encores and then transferred. And they, they loved that form of the show, you know, it was, we often talk about the fact that it was, it was, the script was, was whittled down. It's the leanest script possible, but it's, it, it honors the show, you know, a musical, vaudeville, in the best possible way. And Walter is, is very proud of the show. He's proud of the legacy that we're continuing.

David Bushman:

I hope to be with the show until it 30th anniversary. That would be nice.

David Bushman:

Yes.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

It's interesting to be with one show for so long. I interviewed Jeremy Stoll, who has been with fan, who was, who he was with Phantom for 15 years. So, so, so you and Jeremy and people like you, they're these very rare people on Broadway, you know, that do the kind of, the one show, stick with it and, but it, you can make a life, a career out of one show, even though many people, you know, bounce around. I went through just to kind of, just to kind of see what other careers had done. BB New, for example, has done 11 other Broadway shows. Joel Gray, 14 shows. Ann Reinking has done, has performed in 12 shows. So all these people have done multiple, multiple Broadway shows.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And there are people like you who stick with one.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

There must be a satisfaction in knowing a show so intimately and personally as Chicago.

David Bushman:

I mean, it goes beyond satisfaction. You know, on some level just feels like this is where I'm supposed to be. And because I'm not coming in, you know, at my half hour and I'm performing my track my day, I never know what it's going to be. I mean, I know within a week, but even that I can, I could come into the theater and find out at 15 that I'm on, You know, things happen. So I never get tired of the material. I never get tired of explaining what this material is. I love teaching it in a, you know, you know, in a class at Broadway Dance center or at Steps. I, I, I treat it as responsibility, but it's just a, it's a place of passion.

David Bushman:

I, you mentioned the fact that Annie and Joe Gray and.

David Bushman:

Most anybody who's been involved with this show come with baggage. You know, even Charlotte d', Amboise, she's done other work. She's. I think that that's where I'm talking about, I mentioned the imposter syndrome because this is my one Broadway show. This is my one. Yes, I've done other shows, but there are times I'm like, wow, I'm still pinching myself. Do I really deserve this? And I do. I know I've done the work And I, and, and I think Ann, from the very beginning, if she had not liked my work, she even came to see the tour that I first put up and gave me kudos for that tour, you know, so those kinds, that kind of affirmation from Anne Reinking means everything, you know.

David Bushman:

And, you know, the supervisor will come in and he'll look at the show just like Walter will, and he'll give me notes or show, you know, he'll. They'll both give me notes because they're the source and say, yes. Oh, right, I see. I, you know, you have fresh eyes. You're coming and you haven't seen the show for a while. I love that collaboration. I love that responsibility too, to continue to honor what they see in the moment and, and keep abreast of, you know, how they're seeing the show in our current, you know, in our world.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's, it's a show that survived this long, not, not just because of stunt casting, but also because the show, show itself is so, is so pertinent to the time. It's, it's such great. I mean, Kander and ep, it's such great score and great, great material.

David Bushman:

And that's why it doesn't get old. That's one of the big reasons. You know, I think if it were any other show, I would probably be like, I think I should, you know, look at other things because the show is so good. Beyond my responsibilities and the love that I, I have for all that, the show is just good, you know, and, and I always say that the well of Fosse is, is endless. You can keep digging more stuff, pulling more stuff out of that well, and, and it's a way to keep the, the improv idea because when Anne first put up the show, she had two weeks to put up that encore show. She counted on these Fosse dancers to bring the language of Fosse to life. There was a lot of improv in the show. It hasn't even been since, like, I think it was.

David Bushman:

I'm gonna, I'm gonna mix up my years. But I think around 2012, they codified Razzle dazzle much more than it was before that. It went. It was heavily improv and it is much more set now. And I think we're on the cusp of possibly this is going to be a spoiler alert. There's talk about. Because the last production that Ann Reinking put up was in Paris in 2019. She restructured the overture for that show.

David Bushman:

And they. And Gary wants to bring that overture into the show. It's. It's the same overture, but it's elevated a little bit. It's a little bit wilder. And. And I think. And I think that could be a fun way to update the Broadway show.

David Bushman:

It's not changes. It's just breathing a little more new life into, you know, a show that's been running for this long.

David Bushman:

So that's kind of an exciting idea. I don't know when that's gonna happen.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

But, yeah, no, it's the same with doing Beetlejuice.

David Bushman:

Now.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I've been with the tour. The tour has been out for three years, but I've been with it for the last year. And, yeah, there are things that Justin, as Beetlejuice has come up with that he's infused into the character. Different things than Alex Brightman did. He's brought himself into the role, but slowly, over time, his isms have become stock. They become set into the show. It's those things that's like, okay, now this is his show. This is, you know, this is his interpretation of Beetlejuice.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And so now his bits have now become a part of the script.

David Bushman:

Isn't that funny? Yeah. Yeah. I. I think even Walter will see a new Billy and he'll be like, oh, I like that. Let's. Let's. And then he'll. He'll grab onto it and say, that's actually a really great way to.

David Bushman:

To deliver that line, whatever it is, and be like, oh, yeah, because, you know, it is a living, breathing thing. And every single Billy is different. Every Roxy is different. Every Velma is different. And I think that it is paramount that those personalities remain intact when they come in and do the show. When we're. When we're teaching it, we say, this is the. This is The.

David Bushman:

The template. And you have this much room to make it your own because, you know, we're not going to redo the plot, the lot, the lighting plot. We're not. You know, things are where they are. But it is interesting to see people navigate that and. And literally say, oh, you know, we've had. We've had, you know, people come into the show who defy the casting that it ever was before that Angelica Ross came in and did Roxy. You know, she's trans, so she has a whole other take that she brought into the show.

David Bushman:

And it was very interesting to see even her and Walter talk about the role in real time, in a rehearsal and grapple with some of the material. It's. It's still timely as far as the.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

The stars and celebrities that have come through. Obviously you've enjoyed working with all of them, but are there some that. That stick out to you? Like, you know, maybe. Maybe you were a fanboy of some of the people that have come in. How's. How's that relationship been working?

David Bushman:

You know, it really is. It's. You know, people often ask me, who is your favorite? There isn't. There are no favorites, in a sense, but there have been people that. I mean, I. I have a very. I have a lot of affection for Brandy. She was one of my first.

David Bushman:

That I put in Jennifer Nettles. She asked me after she was in to choreograph one of her music videos. And I used almost all Chicago people for that music video called Sugar. Brandi was very interesting because she. Here you have this R B star who every day she would come in and she would audition a riff for the music director. Can I do this? And she'd be like, let me hear it. But she was always, I don't want to. I don't want to, you know, like, be outside of the bounds of the show.

David Bushman:

I want to respect the show. But she would always have, you know, but, you know, she was someone who would come in to rehearsal having just done a kickboxing class. You know, she was in it to win it. And you just thought, wow, here's this star who could be so entitled. And she wasn't at all. She came in serious, wanting to be Roxy, not Brandy, but be Roxy in the role. I would have to say most of the celebrities who come in, that is their first thing. I don't want to be myself.

David Bushman:

I want to be Roxy, whoever that Roxy ends up being. And so the pleasure to help that person discover them themselves in that role is enormous. There have been a lot of really great people.

David Bushman:

Yes, those are two that are near and dear to my heart. But there have been many.

David Bushman:

Jinx Monsoon as. As Mama. You know, she's on this trajectory now. Chicago opened that door for her, the Broadway door. And.

David Bushman:

What a light. What a. What a. A creative but serious artist who's, you know, we. We saw work that she did, you know, on RuPaul, and you're like, wow, what a great impersonator. She is way beyond that. But when you look at somebody who. Who's coming from that world and saying, no, I am here to work honestly in the theater.

David Bushman:

I didn't see her in. In Little Shop, but I did see her in Pirates, and she was fantastic. So you get the.

David Bushman:

The people with this kind of clout coming in and saying, I'm here to serve the show. And I think that's one of the reasons why. And we, we certainly. That's the way we work with them. But that kind of respect for the show is why, for the most part, celebrity casting has worked, because you don't see someone up there.

David Bushman:

Being themselves and using this as a vehicle for themselves. And I, And I think that, that we, we really, this is something that we protect, but we also very much promote and to the best of our ability, when a celebrity comes in to say, yeah, we see this in you and we're going to champion that and we're going to help you find a way to do that.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. One of the ones that I never got to see it, but I remember whenever Huey Lewis was going into Billy Flynn. Now, did you get to work with him?

David Bushman:

I did it. I did the tour with him.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Now I've left him since the 80s because I'm an 80s kid, so huge fan. But Billy Flynn is so different from all the stuff he's done.

David Bushman:

Yes, yes.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I mean, it must be a joy to really see these people who are known for one thing and then kind of bring this other thing out of them.

David Bushman:

Oh, it's unbelievable. Eddie George, football player, came in and, you know, did Billy, and we were like, wow, that's. That's incredible that you have a notion of what this is. And pretty much undaunted by the task of saying, I'm not of this world, but I'm going to come in and I'm going to lead this company.

David Bushman:

Kudos. Yeah, I. I would say that to the best of my ability, I will find a connection to theater or to dance with everyone who comes in, even if it's. Even if it's something as slim as, oh, I take yoga. All right, let's talk about your body. How do you feel in your body? You know, it's one of those things you say, I've got to find a connection. So this just doesn't feel like I'm grasping at anything.

David Bushman:

And then, of course, you know, with each of these characters, you know, how do they identify with these characters? You know, this is a 1920s story, but it's relevant today. So how do you. How do you identify with this in your life? Bring your life to this role? I mean, that's true for anybody in the world of acting, but specifically for this show, and that includes ensemble. You know, it's a pretty dark show in some ways. The humor of it. It's, you know, you have the ensemble commenting on Roxy shooting Fred Casely in the, in all that jazz. What is that? You know, and razzle dazzle, you know, the idea that he's manipulating us as he's manipulating the courts with the way he's defending, you know, Johnny Cochran was a huge star after OJ Simpson. Huge.

David Bushman:

Everyone was like, what? You know, so that's, that's modern day Billy. That's, you know, 1920s Billy in, in real time, back when that, when that trial was happening.

David Bushman:

It's fascinating.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And obviously, obviously, you've done so much more. You've been, you've had the ballet career, you've had your little spurts of musical theater even before Chicago. But for the last 20 years or so, Chicago has really been your life. And how would you say that this show in particular has changed you, evolved you as a person, as an artist?

David Bushman:

You know, it's, it's taught me, you know, we talked a little bit about, you know, we've alluded to imposter syndrome. The, the challenges with this show sort of never end in a sense that every time I have a new person, it's another set of challenges. I think I've learned so much about how to, to remain focused on what is my job at hand. And also, you know, there's a, there's a level of trust. Everyone in this career has doubts. You hear about, you know, actors who, who have achieved such a level of success and having to go back into that audition room again and feeling like, wow, I'm, I'm back, you know, back in this situation where I have to prove myself again and they have doubts about what they can do. It is a never ending thing with our, with our, our industry. We all deal with doubts.

David Bushman:

I have learned, and it's probably the biggest thing that I, that I, I continue to learn it since the beginning is.

David Bushman:

Identify those doubts, don't pretend they're not there, and then say, how do I, how do I navigate the doubts and turn it into, oh, this is a great challenge. I know I'm going to learn something from this situation.

David Bushman:

I often say that because I'm now in the front of the room a lot now for auditions. The idea that we want you to succeed and to let them know we're not here to judge you, we actually want you to succeed. We want you to be the answer to our problem, which is we need to cast this role. So.

David Bushman:

I am constantly.

David Bushman:

Impressed by people putting themselves on the line in every audition and making them jump through hoops. Sometimes it's a Full day of auditions. And you're like, you waited until the very end for the, to be the last person to sing and read after starting your dance audition in that morning. I'm humbled by it. And I'm consistently.

David Bushman:

Sort of blown away by.

David Bushman:

What people, people are capable of and showing up and being people. You know, anytime I find myself in a place of doubt or, or frustration, thinking, no, just what is being asked of you now? Show up and do your best.

David Bushman:

That's all we can really do.

David Bushman:

I remember during that conservatory that I did, acting conservatory before I found Chicago, before I got, you know, and we were doing our showcase and there were all these, these people from the industry coming in to see the showcase and I, I had a freak out moment right before that showcase and I thought, I'm, I'm gonna forget all my lines. I've been a dancer all my life. I didn't have to, to say lines. I'm like, I'm gonna screw this up. I, I, I literally had to hold myself in that room and not walk out and say, I can't do this. It was that bad. I thought, yeah, I'm gonna fail. And I, and I literally was almost physically sick.

David Bushman:

I remember that because I, I think about people and the things that they do to be seen to be, to be considered again for the job. What do I have to do just to get into the room? Just keep showing up, keep showing up. And even the worst fears or the worst.

David Bushman:

Worries about whether you're going to be liked or whether you're going to deliver, you show up very often. You'll have a good group of people who make it to the end. They've all shown up, they've all done their work. And this is my point is just be people, be yourself, come in and, and be able to be a person in, in the room.

David Bushman:

So often fear and, and anxiety can, can shut us off and we just show up and, and say, I'm going to do my work, I'm going to do the thing, but I can just take a breath and relax and go, oh, I screwed up that line reading, it's okay. And very often the people behind the table, it doesn't matter you actually laughed it off or you found a way through it. And that shows people being human and being able to, we're able to work with them.

David Bushman:

So fear is, can be a big thing. And I think that you just have to, you have to just take a breath and say, I'm enough. I can do this.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Love that, love that. Well, that's that's, that's a great way to end that section. Perfect. We'll get into these final five questions, then I have a short little introduction before we get into this, and then we'll get into the final five questions. All right? All right.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, welcome back. It is always so inspiring to hear the stories and experiences of artists like David Bushman. And in our last episode, we really got into as many years with the music musical Chicago, as well as his life as a ballet dancer. But there is still so much more to uncover. And in these final five questions, we're going to take a closer look at the pivotal moments from his life, along with personal reflections and ideas for the future that make his journey so unique. So, David, let us get started with question number one. We touched on this earlier, but I want to narrow down. What do you remember most about your first professional show that you were in?

David Bushman:

So my first professional show was Brigadoon, and it was a summer stock production, which I had. I had some.

David Bushman:

Affiliation with some of the people involved, knew the director, hadn't worked with him. But I remember thinking, this is an opportunity that I can't pass up. Even though I hadn't done musical theater in so long, there was something about the opportunity that said, you can't let this one go. And when they asked me to choreograph it, as well as being it, I thought, oh, this again. This idea of fear saying, I have no idea. I don't know if I can do this, thinking, you know what? Breathe, Take a moment, see what the task is at hand, and realize that this is. This, this is a situation at summer stock where you have professionals coming together that are at a certain place in their career. You're at a certain place in your career.

David Bushman:

You can do this.

David Bushman:

And it ended up being a very positive experience, but it was also a hugely learning experience, being in a position of as creator, but also as a performer among people who were already doing this for their life. And I was plucked out of my dance concert dance world to do it and held my own. And I think that that's great proof that when an opportunity does arise, no matter what you feel, you have to bring to it on some level. You wouldn't have been asked if you had if you didn't have something to offer. I think it's often something that we don't realize. You're never going to be given something you actually can't handle. And there's a lot of people out there who are faking it till they make it. That's kind of a universal thing.

David Bushman:

Very often people are given an opportunity and they think, oh, I've never done this before, can I? And. And they end up doing it.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

They do it.

David Bushman:

Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, number two, if you could give advice to your younger self starting out, what would that be?

David Bushman:

I would say.

David Bushman:

That questions are good. You know, in my younger life, I. I didn't really have a direction. I. I was very observant, but I didn't know where I fit into the world. And I think curiosity is a very big thing that, you know, as kids, hopefully, we're encouraged to be curious and to ask questions, but I think if we are curious enough and we're observant enough, we will. We will be led to where we should be going. I think very often.

David Bushman:

We think, oh, I have no idea. I don't even know what to base. You know, when I, When I left home, I felt like I hadn't been given the tools to function in the outside world. It was, you know, it was a small community, so I, and my family wasn't extremely social. I didn't really know how to function in a social situation. And I think younger David had a lot of sort of anxiety about being around other people. Even though I learned very quickly, they're like, oh, you're so gregarious. You actually, you're a lot of fun to be around, you know.

David Bushman:

You know, you. It's always interesting to talk to you. I would not have known that as a young boy. So I would say you are. You can hold your own in a situation even where you think you're. You're a fish out of water. I like that and that. That I carry that through my life.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, number three, what does success or making it mean to you?

David Bushman:

You know, I. Everyone, Everybody's career happens in. In stages. And I think that success, making it, quote, unquote, is something that is constantly being proven to you.

David Bushman:

There. There are stages in everybody's career. And so at any given point, you know, the first time you land that gig, whether it's high school or community theater or, you know.

David Bushman:

Any level of, oh, I. I landed this and then I showed up and I did the work. That's. That's achievement. That's success in its own way. I think people have aspirations, of course, to, to hit. I always wanted to be in a ballet, a major ballet company, and be a principal dancer. That was, that was when I found ballet.

David Bushman:

That was what it was. It was going to be. I ended up making it to first soloist in a larger ballet Company, not abt, by the way, I did audition for abt. I actually was in a ballet class with Mikhail Baryshnikov, going across the floor with him in that ballet class. He wasn't teaching, he was taking class. I would like to say that that was success on some level. I actually held my own in that ballet class with Mikhail Barishnikov. But so success is, at the end of the day, did I fall down? Maybe? Did I get up? Yeah, there's success.

David Bushman:

Did I. Did I book that gig? No, but I did a damn good audition.

David Bushman:

And if Broadway is your.

David Bushman:

Ultimate goal and you're thinking, I'm not going to make it until I'm on Broadway, I will tell you, there are people who have done plenty of tours, who have done other regional work, who have done. Making it is being able to do what you love. You know, if that's booking a show, it may not be Broadway yet, but who knows? At 50, you might get your first Broadway show. Making it is relative. I like to say that when. When I'm teaching young kids and I. And I see their parents, and maybe their parents aren't in it. Maybe I'll say this to the students, but I have also said it to the parents.

David Bushman:

The fact that your kids are in ballet class or in dance class, who knows how they're going to end up using this in their life, but it's already a success for them to be.

David Bushman:

Engaging in an activity that is going to better them and it's going to expand them. Dance gives you something that nothing else in the world will give you. So how you end up using that doesn't matter. If I go in, and even as an adult and I'm taking ballet classes, I'm succeeding and building something in myself. So, yeah, I think success is relative, but I also think that we have to have dreams, and it's those dreams that make us push ourselves harder to get there. So if making it for someone is, oh, wow, I've done all this for myself, I just want to book my first show. And you do it, celebrate. Because the most likely you're going to have a success after that.

David Bushman:

You're going to make it again.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that's true. Yeah, you have to celebrate each one of those successes.

David Bushman:

That's true. We had this talk earlier, the other, you know, in the last segment, actors who have already made it in movies or in television and they're back in that audition room for another role, they're going to make it again. You know it. You don't you don't make it once and then you're done. That's my short answer.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. I was reading an interview with Duncan and Bentley. They're the casting directors for Chicago and they were talking about how they kind of have these, you know, they go through these sessions of, okay, who do we want? Who do we want to reach out to? They have this huge list of stars, celebrities. And then they narrow it down and then those stars and celebrities have to audition to then be a part of Chicago. It's not just these straight offers.

David Bushman:

Nope, nope.

David Bushman:

Just to be clear, Bentley. No. Is no longer. Duncan and Bentley have no longer work together. Duncan is now a part of Arc casting. It used to be Stuart Whitley. Now it's arc and Bentley. I forget where he's working, but Benton.

David Bushman:

Sorry. But anyway, that, that said.

David Bushman:

Yes, most of the time there is a work session slash audition for celebrities coming in. We have to know that there's, there's a, a grasp of what is, is ahead of them and do they want to do it? You know, like they might be pushed. Maybe, you know, maybe it's like maybe they're, they're, you know, their agent is like, oh, they should be seen. You have to see that desire that they just absolutely would die to do this role.

David Bushman:

I think it's, that's paramount.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, number four, what changes would you like to see in the industry going forward?

David Bushman:

I'd like to see.

David Bushman:

You know, I think we make a pretty good living, you know, in the industry. Certainly if you, if you're making a Broadway salary, I think, you know, if you do the calculation, we're doing pretty well, you know, per hour kind of work. That said, we're earning it. Like people work hard. There are times when people think, oh, you know, broad, you got a cushy job. It ain't cushy. It's. It's work.

David Bushman:

And it's all the things that you do in order to stay in shape and to stay in the work, you know.

David Bushman:

So we earn it. However, I think that there's something to be said for we.

David Bushman:

The conditions continually get better.

David Bushman:

But I think.

David Bushman:

One week every six months of vacation is a little bit short. Especially for Chicago. We have our day off on a Wednesday, which means you do a five show weekend, you back in on Monday, back in on Tuesday, and you get one day off. Some shows, you know, you do your Sunday matinee and you're back, not back to the theater until Tuesday.

David Bushman:

The comparison is. So for somebody who does a 40 hour week doing another sort of job. They get a weekend, they get two days off every week. We get one day off every week. And so if you do the calculation, that's what it's like 102 days a week a year. For people not in the industry. We get 52 days a week of, of just, you know, that's not counting vacations, but just days off per week. I think there's something to be said for a good discussion that could advance that idea.

David Bushman:

Perhaps we could. And it's not, I'm not talking about doing a seven show week. That's, that's not feasible for Broadway productions, but I think it would be possible to get in at least one more week of vacation per year.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I like that. Yeah. Yeah.

David Bushman:

I would like that discussion to happen.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

For sure. For sure.

David Bushman:

We work hard.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. So instead of, I mean, I would push that every six months. Instead of one week, we get two weeks.

David Bushman:

I mean that would be ideal. That would be wonderful. But you know, even. Let's start with one extra week. Week still.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

But, well, you know, you know, in negotiation you always start with the. You're right, the big one. And then it's like, well, fine, we'll, we'll, we'll con, concede. Just one week.

David Bushman:

Indeed, indeed. Yes, yes, yes. And you know what? Covid. Covid Times proved that there are people who are, can come in for vacations. You know, we were pulling from tours to keep our show up because, you know, everyone, all the COVID You know, that was happening. We, we were doing everything to stay open and we did. I think we missed maybe one performance the whole time once we reopen. But yeah, I think a little extra vacation would, would get us closer to, you know, a little bit more rest, a little bit more feeling like yeah, we, we can continue to do, you know, especially in a long running show that, you know, we make sacrifices.

David Bushman:

We don't get weekends like the rest of the world. You know, it would be nice to.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. Because I certainly know that on the Beetlejuice national tour, especially this last year that I've been part of, there were regular hiatus weeks, you know, so it was actually one of the things that drew me to it. It's like, oh, I'm not going to be gone for 12 months at a time there. I'll be gone for like a month or two and then a week off. A month or two we go. The longest stretch that we were out was three months. And I can tell you by the end of that three months, the last couple of cities before we were all just Itching for time off. It was.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

You could just feel the energy in the cast was absolutely. Tempers were a little shorter then, you know, but people were just more tired. We were ready for a time off.

David Bushman:

You feel like you're running on fumes a little bit, you know. Yeah, I did like that about the tour, the national tour when I was on it. We would have always like a six week hiatus in the summer. Just, okay, just dust it off, go off, live your life, come back fresh. Yeah. And this is specifically a. A long running show sort of situation, you know.

David Bushman:

It can, it can be arduous for sure. You make that sacrifice, you know.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, question number five. Describe a personal lesson that has taken you a while to learn or one that you're still working on to this day.

David Bushman:

I think for me, and this is specific to dance captain work. And that is so I've already said, I don't like to work from a place of fear. I don't like to work from a place of, you know, something that could ever be even close to being considered as bullying. You know, it's one of those things. I've worked with enough people who, who think that the only way to get the best out of you is to, to. To instill fear in you that you're not going to succeed or, or that you're going to screw up. In some ways.

David Bushman:

I work from a place of passion, as I say. I also like to say, you know, if I'm really disappointed, just express that disappointment so that, you know, you can do better.

David Bushman:

I think I can be very serious sometimes, so I like to be able to challenge myself, to find the humor in any given moment. Sometimes as dance captain, I feel like I'm playing psychologist a little bit, you know, like everyone takes their notes slightly differently. I try to honor that, you know, you don't like to get your notes in front of other people. I won't give them to you in the dressing room. I'll find you, or, you know, maybe you like your, you know, notes given in a certain way. I will try to honor that. You know, especially, you know, we have some people who've been on the show forever. I will do my best to communicate those, you know, in a more confidential way.

David Bushman:

But in general, I would say that I, I'm still learning how to.

David Bushman:

Bridge the seriousness of the moment and the note. And even when I'm running a rehearsal, how do I communicate the seriousness of what it is that I'm asking you to do? And please engage in a way that I'm Asking you to engage, but also find the humor in it because, you know, no one likes just someone who's just constantly serious. And, you know, so I pride myself when I can actually make a joke or I can, you know, find a way to be light about something, because at the end, you know, we want to come to work and enjoy it. We want to look forward to coming to work and to.

David Bushman:

Collaborating instead of it just being me saying, do this, do this, do this, you know, So I like to be able to appeal to someone as an artist and say, how do we find the best way for you to. To take this note or to understand the note? I think my personal lesson is just constantly try to stay human. Even though I'm trying to accomplish what is always. It sometimes can feel like, oh, I'm asking this again. I'm posting that note again. You know, so it's. It's a learning curve, giving myself grace.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Learning curve for us as well, that. Taking the notes.

David Bushman:

Sure. Oh, absolutely. And sometimes you want to say, just take the note and say thank you. But, you know, it's one of those things that, you know, I. We're all human. So I'm. I'm certainly willing to say. I know that's hard to hear, so I'm going to try to frame it in a different way, you know, but the personal lesson is always, always continue to find grace in the process.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, David, this has been a joy to talk to you for me as well, and pick your brain about Chicago and your. Your career. It's been such a joy. Thank you so much for joining the podcast.

David Bushman:

It's been my pleasure, honestly. Thank you.