This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Patrick Oliver Jones: Several years ago, I played Captain Walker in a regional production of The Who's Rock Musical, Tommy. For someone like me who had previously done musicals like Oklahoma, Once Upon a Mattress, and Camelot, the hard-hitting rock music of Tommy was very different for me. But after doing that show and getting to learn that fantastic score, it expanded my range as a musical theater actor and gave me a deeper appreciation for musicals outside the classic genre I was used to. Well, Tommy is back on Broadway for its first revival, 30 years after the original production. And directing this revival is the original director from that first Broadway run.

[0:45] Des McAnuff: My name is Des McAnuff. I was born in Illinois and raised in Canada. And I've lived in New York City since I was 23, a long time. I've also spent time in California and gone back to Canada. I'm a director, I've been an artistic director, I'm also a composer and a playwright. So I have a tremendously confused career.

[1:11] Patrick Oliver Jones: While Des is known for his work in musicals, he is also quite adept in the works of Shakespeare and other classical works, having been artistic director of Canada's Stratford Festival. And yes, he is a musician too. In fact, I'll be posting pictures of him playing guitar with Pete Townshend of The Who. You can check those out at Win Me Podcast on Instagram. So while we will touch on some of his other projects, today's conversation will focus on three of his standout shows. First off, this season's revival of Tommy. Then we'll get into the best musical smash hit of Jersey Boys, and finally, his Broadway debut and first Tony Award for Big River. We'll even talk about his penchant for doing musicals that feature pop music scores and why some people look down on jukebox musicals.

[2:10] Des McAnuff: And I think a lot of people in the theater don't do that. You know, they come in, frankly, with stinking prejudice. And I don't care who you are, that's a bad thing to do. You know, it's just not a good thing to come in having already made up your mind.

[2:47] Patrick Oliver Jones: The website is why I'll never make it.com, where you can donate, subscribe, and find past episodes. Again, that's why I'll never make it.com. Welcome, Des. It is such a pleasure to have you on the podcast, and so great to have you on and be able to talk to you today.

[3:13] Des McAnuff: Thank you so much for having me.

[3:15] Patrick Oliver Jones: Now, in 1978, you and five others founded the Dodgers, which has produced shows internationally as well as off and on Broadway. I think you've received about 60 Tony Awards in your 45-year history. So did the six of you envision the Dodgers becoming such a powerful force in theater?

[3:32] Des McAnuff: You know, we started as a not-for-profit theater at the Brooklyn Academy, which we call Dodger Theater. And my colleagues branched out, three of them really, and did a commercial production. And everyone had dabbled in the commercial theater. So that was hardly surprising. And four of us were very active. We called ourselves associate directors. We took that title. I think we were a little cynical about artistic directors at that time. So we thought we'd be somewhat kind of vague about what a job description was. I suppose when there was a need for an artistic director type, they asked me to kind of step in because I was the one that directed actors. We also had Rocco Landisman who went on to be the head of Jujamcyn and was also the head of the National Endowment.

And then Doug Johnson, who is a brilliant graphic designer, and he did our artwork for several years. I don't know if we really knew that we were going to end up more or less exclusively in commercial theater as the Dodgers. I think that might have been a bit of a surprise. But, you know, I think we managed to continue when we were together to do things that we really believe in. So we weren't handicapped in terms of the art by working in the halls of commerce.

[5:02] Patrick Oliver Jones: And it's had many different titles. Is that part of its finding its footing in theater? The many different titles, the Dodger Theatricals, Dodger Productions, Dodger Enterprise. It seems to have a lot of title changes too.

[5:13] Des McAnuff: Yeah, I'm sure it's all legal, but it's basically, you know, we're thought of as the Dodgers. And to be clear, it's more of a kind of brotherhood than a formal organization. I mean, I do continue to work with Michael David. He's in fact going to be a producer on The Ballad of Johnny and June. We go to La Jolla to develop it, but it's a partnership, and he's definitely been involved from the get-go. So it's basically just the Dodgers, and I'm sure everything else has to do with legality and other partnerships and things that I don't understand.

[5:50] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yes, exactly. That's for the lawyers to figure out. We just create the art, right?

[5:54] Des McAnuff: Right, yeah. Now you have directed in both U.S. and Canada. What would you say is the biggest difference between the two countries as far as theater and directing and the type of shows that they like?

[6:04] Des McAnuff: You know, I started off in Toronto and I moved to New York when I was very young. But I had a rich career in Canada. I wrote for television as well as the theater. I composed. I think I'd written, I know this is sort of stupid, but I think I've written something like 10 plays, some for young audiences, some more kind of outrageous and very much adult. I've written like, you know, I'm sure 10 or 12 projects and scores as well, musical scores. So, but that was a long, long time ago. And more recently, I went back to Canada to become artistic director of the Stratford Festival in Stratford, Ontario, which is a gigantic organization. It has, and even when I was running it during those years, '08 to '12, '13, the operating budget was sixty million dollars.

You know, one season we had, I think had 128 actors on the company, four stages times five stages. It's actually more of a theater scene than a theater company. It is vast. I would meet people sometimes that were working, you know, get to know people that hadn't even met each other. It's such a, if one of the things I did is I started, I had a party every spring at a fabulous restaurant called The Church. And we would take that over so that everybody could at least have a shot at being under one roof. So the thing, so when what I've to answer your question, there was really nothing like Stratford in the United States. I believe it's probably the largest performing arts institution, certainly theater in North America.

I would say that America has a wonderful, you know, theater scene because it's so eclectic. There are so many different genres of theater. And that's one of the things that I found most exciting about working here. And, you know, my real kind of home base has been La Jolla Playhouse, which I had the great privilege of helping to found in 1983. And that I think for me, well, I hope it exemplifies the strengths of American theater because it does classics, it does new plays, it has no prejudice when it comes to genre. It embraces all of the American genres and it's become known more and more for doing musicals, but that's just because musicals have higher profiles than, you know, if you're going to do Cymbeline, it probably isn't gonna make as much noise. So if you do Hairspray.

[8:52] Patrick Oliver Jones: Very true, very true. And as we get into the first story we're going to talk about, we're going to talk about your latest production of The Who's Tommy, which is getting its first revival on Broadway. It originally opened about 30 years ago. So the first question is why this revival and why now?

[9:09] Des McAnuff: You know, we could, Pete Townshend, who's the principal creator, lyricist, composer. I wrote the book with him for Tommy. He called me and he said, I think it's time we started talking about a motion picture. And so we did. I was away. I was actually in Costa Rica of all places, and, you know, got this phone call from him, and we're very close friends. So that wasn't a surprise. But the fact he managed to track me down there was a little odd. And anyway, we dove in and I did a screenplay based on a number of conversations. So we had it as we were working on a screenplay. There was a moment where we kind of looked at each other and said, you know, I think it's time we did this on stage again.

The world has finally caught up to Tommy Walker. So it was, I think, a sense that the piece is pertinent in a new way, that it's found perhaps, and I think this is what's happening at the Nederlander, it's finding a new audience. It's speaking to a new audience. And, you know, there's a whole list of things that I think make it relevant. You know, it certainly addresses subjects that are part of the national conversation now, abuse and trauma, certainly bullying, the idea of the danger of the charismatic leader and that sort of personality. So we felt like it just had to be heard again and seen again and felt again. So that's really it. It was motivated. It wasn't kind of like we could make a bundle here because everybody knows Tommy.

I think a lot of people thought I was insane. I worked by friends with the director, James Lapine, and he said, Are you sure you want to do that? That's like one of your signature pieces. And so I was able to say to him, meanwhile, you know, you've done Into the Woods three times. So you have no right to say that to me. So, and anyway, so there were a bunch of reasons. And also, you know, it was kind of deliciously scary. You know, I learned a long time ago from an older director when I was a kid, never compete with yourself. And so, because it's dangerous to do that. And so that made us, I think, excited too. Could we take it to a new place? Could we give it, you know, a new look? Could we reinvent Tommy? And I like to think that we have.

[11:42] Des McAnuff: And I was just about to ask, since you directed the original, did that make it easier or did that make it more challenging to be like, well, I don't just want to recreate what I did. I don't want to, you know, cut and paste. You want to make it something new. Were there things that you had to let go of the original and be like, no, let's do something new this time? You know, I think I went back and forth on many sleepless nights from worrying that I would change it too much to worrying that I wouldn't change it enough.

[12:12] Des McAnuff: And so I think we were flying between those two peaks. Uh, we have changed it substantially. I think it looks very different. It I think it has that new kind of intimacy and humanity. Um, the actors are very much storytellers. It's not just, you know, gadgets and automation. I think it really does have a very strong emotional journey. And uh, so you know, sure, I I was I was very nervous, but you know, I believed in doing it. Uh there were some advantages in that obviously because I I, you know, co-wrote the book, I know the material extremely well. That that's an advantage. I mean, as a director, knowledge is your best friend. And uh, you know, it's it is about preparation and study and hard work.

Uh directing is a skill. I mean, I think it's a talent as well, but it's a craft and it requires a lot of hard work. So that I I I would say uh was an advantage. I think the disadvantage would have been if I said, oh, that worked so well before everybody loved it. Why don't I just do that again? But you know, I kind of refused to do that. I worked consciously to make it fresh and alive and to make it now. You know, the theater exists as uh uh Andre Servan, the director once said, on the shifting sands of time. So, you know, you you it it is real life, the theater. So you have no choice but to embrace the moment. Uh if you don't do that, you're doing uh uh what I think old Peter Brook called deadly theater. And so in a way you have no choice. Doesn't make it less scary, but you have no choice.

[13:58] Patrick Oliver Jones: Exactly. Now, as you mentioned, you co-wrote the book with Peter Townsend, one of the founding members of the Who. What was it like working with this iconic rock legend?

[14:08] Des McAnuff: You know, he's a great collaborator. I mean, he's been in the Who for, you know, decades for, you know, uh, I guess getting on for 60 years, around 60 years now. So you'd have to be a pretty good collaborator to do that to be in a rock and roll band during the 60s. So he knows a lot about partnership. He's uh he's kind of insatiably curious, and that makes him a wonderful partner. Uh you know, we we right from the very beginning, from the first time we met, we spent as much time talking about other aspects of life, you know, as we did talking about Tommy. So, you know, he he's he's a very good partner. He also, I think has respect for the craft. He's certainly no bully. He's very generous with his support, and I think he gets excited by the things we cook up together. So that that's a that's a nice quality.

[15:09] Patrick Oliver Jones: And as you said, you wanted to bring this revival into the now, but but this music is from the 60s and 70s. It's of a particular generation. What about it? Were you able to alter, change, and make it more contemporary?

[15:22] Des McAnuff: You know, uh first of all, I I think if you were doing, you know, Guno's Faust, or you decided to do My Fair Lady, or you decided to do, you know, Oklahoma or Portney and Best. I'm not sure that you know, the first requirement would be how can we change this to make it give it kind of a hip-hop feel? Or, you know, uh to make it more like pop music. So, you know, I I think Tommy, the music in Tommy is universal, the way those other projects are. So he could be Puccini or Verdi. You know, what he wrote has universal, what he composed has universality, as do the themes in the story. So that wasn't a big worry. We did, I think for the 90s version, we did, you know, sort of take on certain sounds in the orchestration that were contemporary to that period.

And we haven't changed that quite a bit. You know, it's it's definitely got um in some cases, maybe a more contemporary flavor, but they're the same songs. And the album came out on, you know, two days after his 24th birthday. So, you know, that there was a kind of intuition to this music that you you just don't want to argue with any more than you would with Mozart, who obviously composed some wonderful pieces when he was even younger. So uh, you know, so that wasn't a big problem. It was more, I think the visual storytelling, the themes, how they apply to today, all the things you would go through if you were doing three penny opera. You know, that there were many dark elements in Tommy, including, by the way, a lot of shadow.

I think the first production was very much about light and pop art. And this is much more, you know, about you know, it feels much more like the impressionist or even Delacoa, you know, it's about light and shadow and mystery, uh, but it's also joyous. And that's something that it it's had from the first note that they recorded back in in 69.

[17:34] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, that original production that you mentioned that was in the 90s, it featured notable Broadway debuts of Michael Cerverus and Norm Lewis, among others. And then in this production, this revival production, there's also several Broadway debuts, and notably once again in the role of Tommy. How is it bringing actors, new actors into the Broadway world?

[17:54] Des McAnuff: You know, I I think the first Tommy, by the way, had, you know, uh Alice Ripley, as you said, I think Norm Lewis, Michael McCall, right, uh, Sherry Renee Scott, there were you know, Cheryl Freeman, there were so many fabulous actors in that that uh that have gone on to become major uh Broadway players. Uh and you know, but in a sense, what you're trying to do is cast a play. So, you know, I mean, it's not in a sense, that is what you're trying to do. So I'm not trying to manage anybody's career or make you know discoveries. I I'm I'm too busy trying to cast the play. I think the fact that the production is exciting, serves as a magnet to attract great talent. And it has to do with all of the hard work we've done in between.

But that does really attract great people. And so I don't have to worry too much about you know whether somebody's gonna go on and their their career's gonna take flight. Ali Borski, who is our who plays Tommy, is just extraordinarily talented. But I've worked with Alison Lough, I've worked with our Mrs. Wapper, I've worked with uh many of of the actors have you know been in Jersey Boys and other things for me, or there are people that I've known over the years. Um there are a lot of the uh of the 30 people in the company, 16 of them are new to Broadway you know that's definitely uh uh substantial I would say though that the they're not new to the theater you know and so they are even the the young ones and I think we have people as young as 24 uh Tassi Kurvis I think is 24 while Lee himself is very young they still have a lot of experience you know they they're they're young but they're they've been active and they have craft and skill and one of my jobs is frankly to help them impart more craft and skill so you know when you direct you are uh and this sounds a little bit more pretentious than I mean it to but you are also a teacher and a coach and uh so I I I I'm looking for people that are incredibly talented and that are passionate and hardworking and then uh we go from there.

[20:24] Patrick Oliver Jones: And when it comes to musicals like like Tommy there's also you've directed Jersey Boys Summer Ain't Too Proud these are jukebox musicals. Now some people embrace that term some people try to shy away from it. What are your thoughts about doing a jukebox musical?

[20:40] Des McAnuff: You know I think that term is generally used by people when they're being derogatory I think song cycles uh biographies, you know Jersey Boys is in fact a biography and it happens to be about guys who did original music. If they've been physicists as Marshall Brickland says, there would be no songs. So, you know, it I think a June when while I hear jukebox musical I I generally think of a story that's been invented. You know, you take a bunch of songs, and you know, you you put everybody in flushing, you know, at the coffee shop, and you know, there's a school dance, and you make up a story. Uh actually what they did with Mama Mia. I I don't even, and I certainly don't turn up my nose at that either, but I think what I've been doing is generally doing biographies of of artists.

Now, I've done as many Elizabethan Jacket Beat plays as I've done musicals. The reason you want to ask about the musicals is they always take on a higher profile. Uh musicals, you know, they run for longer, they're flashier, they have TV campaigns. But I haven't spent my life, you know, uh doing uh summer. You know, I've I've spent my life doing uh a whole plethora of composers and writers, and I love all genres. And I I don't discriminate, I don't uh love one or the other. I mean, if you said to me you have you you can no longer do Shakespeare, you know, uh whoever is in, you know, you were there's a new president, and he says we're not doing any more Shakespeare in this country, uh, I would probably I would flee, you know, because I I really want to do those plays.

[22:27] Des McAnuff: So back to the Dubux. In Elizabethan England, the celebrities were at court. So the celebrities that Shakespeare wrote plays about, he wrote roughly, you know, a third of his plays, or almost a third of his plays were histories. A third, that's a, you know, he wrote a lot of plays, 36 or whatever. And so he wrote these two tetrologies, you know, four-play cycles, which capture practically a century of English history. They were the stars. You know, we have the king of rock and roll. We have the king of the road, we have prince, we have the queen of pop. So our royalty really has become celebrity. And we're really doing the same thing. We're telling stories about people that the audience wants to get to know more intimately, whether it's Michael Jackson or whether it's you know Frankie Valley or Donna Summer, uh, they have become our kings and queens.

So I I maintain we're really doing pretty much the same thing. Uh I think the other thing that's interesting is I I think Tommy, in the original production, some of the old, I think folks who really wanted to see Tommy, you know, the story ended up at the commune with a lot of pot being smoked, they they were kind of troubled by the fact that Tommy really goes back to his nuclear family to work things out. Now, the fact is we all have families, and we all need to work this out with families. And that started with the house of Priam and the Greeks in uh, you know, the classical age of Athens. They were writing about families. All those plays are about families, virtually every one of them. And so I I do believe that we, you know, as human beings, we're interested in essentially the same thing.

[24:26] Des McAnuff: The qualification I would say is that we're all interested in our own lives and times. So if I'm doing the back eye or I'm doing, you know, a Greek play, my only real interest in that play is how it illuminates my life. I'm selfish, maybe I'm even egotistical, but I'm interested in my life. And I think I'm not such a strange guy that if I'm interested in something, I like to believe the audience is going to be interested too. I'm just not that weird. You know, I think if I like something, something touches my heart, then I think it's going to touch the heart of others. Well, I think that's the same, whether it's a playwright, whether it's a podcaster, no matter what you're doing, you want to be interested in what you're bringing to other people. If you have an interest in it, if you have something invested in it, then it's going to be personal. And I think that that will resonate to an audience as well.

[25:21] Patrick Oliver Jones: I do too. Absolutely.

[25:22] Des McAnuff: And then you just said it's the actual, it's the all-purpose direction, by the way. When you're not sure of what else to say to an actor, you say, take it personally. Take it personally, whatever it is. And it's amazing how that always works, no matter what you're doing. You know, the job really is to personalize everything. And that's true for directors and podcasters and actors.

[25:52] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, getting on to our second show, Jersey Boys. Now, there have been many Broadway shows about music groups, you know, before Jersey Boys. What do you think set this one apart? That it just created such a juggernaut and critical audience successes. What do you think was different about it?

[26:08] Des McAnuff: I'll be very blunt and frank with you. It was really good. You know, it's not about the genre. I mean, I know, you know, there is a critical prejudice that I think goes there with shows. Oh, that genre is not quite as sexy as this genre over here. And it's, you know, I prefer the avant garde, right? But you know, at the end of the day, it's about whether something's really good. And I think when I go into the theater, not being a drama critic, I actually go in wanting to have my life changed. I go in hoping I'm gonna have an experience that's really meaningful, whatever the title. I try to check my own prejudices at the door. Now, not everybody does that. And that's true with wine too. You get somebody who says, Well, I like sweet wine.

I don't like drama, or I love Bordeaux. No dessert wines for me. And I always go, well, what a shame. If you really love wine, why not just be open to every experience? And maybe you'll, you know, that will be a more expansive. And I think a lot of people in the theater don't do that. You know, they come in, frankly, with stinking prejudice. And I don't care who you are, that's a bad thing to do. You know, it's just not a good thing to come in having already made up your mind.

[27:35] Des McAnuff: So Jersey Boys, I think a really good story. I think Marshall Brickman and Rick Ellis wrote a tremendous book, and we partnered. I was designing the show at the same time they were writing. It was a very close collaboration. And it's an ancient story in its way too, it's Roshama. You get the same story from four different points of view. And that is a kind of classical form in itself. If you've seen a Kurosawa film, you know, that has great power, and it's not by any means the same story, but it's the same sort of journey. And you know, they suffered. Those guys, they were, you know, second generation Italian Americans. They speak for a lot of people. They it has everything to do with, I think, people's coming to America from other places.

And, you know, just like the Temptations had the passion of gospel music, which they applied to Motown. The four seasons brought their Italian roots and their blue collar roots and, you know, rockabilly and singing on the corner. They brought all of that to rock and roll. So yeah, it's a story that I think Jersey Boys is a story that really does seem to cross the footlights for a lot of people. And I think we ran for, I don't know, it was a 13 years, a long, long time.

[29:02] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, I ran a long time, both on and off Broadway.

[29:05] Des McAnuff: Yeah, I ran for quite a long time. So I don't think initially I if you told me that, I would say, you know, you're smoking something funny. Well, the show itself won four Tony Awards, and yet your nomination for best direction didn't end up in a win. What do you think about Tony Awards? Was that disappointing to you? Did you take it in stride?

[29:27] Des McAnuff: Oh my God, I was it disappointing, not at all. We want Best Musical. The only award that really ultimately matters is that one. And maybe Best Revival. It's hard to keep an actor around for long enough to take advantage of the fact that they've won, you know, best featured actor or best. And I don't think anybody really cares who the director is on a show. So I was perfectly happy with Frankly Whitty's best musical. And my colleague John Doyle won for his new version of Sweeney Todd. And I thought he was richly deserving. You know, generally everybody that's nominated is richly deserving. And, you know, I think people vote as they do in political elections for all kinds of different reasons.

I mean, some people are trying to figure out what's going to do best on the road, that might be their interest. Other people may be somewhat puritanical again about genre. Well, we're not going to give an award to a director does it, you know, a jukebox musical. So, you know, I really try not to take those things personally. Is it nice to win? Absolutely. You know, I've won awards more than once, and I've won the Tony as director a couple of times. And I remember the first time I was so relieved to win, not because of anything to do with the award itself. I just had such back pain sitting in that seat for two and a half hours that I thought if I didn't win, I was gonna get up there anyway. Just because I had to stand up.

I was in agony. You know, you're sitting there for a long time and all your friends are going up and you're rooting for them. Are they gonna win? Are they not gonna win? No, it's torture. It's much easier to go through an award ceremony when you're convinced you're not gonna win. Because all you then have to do is smile at the camera side, you make sure you remember your smile, whatever happens, you know. And so if you think he might win, that's in a way the worst thing. Because, like, what am I gonna say? What if I forget? What if I forget the producer's name? You know, all that stuff. So listen, I it's a privilege to get to do this at all. I try to remember that. I don't take it for granted.

I think that's one of the things that's happening in this day and age. I just had dinner with a friend last night. We were discussing that. How people don't perhaps have appreciation for what they get to do. And, you know, we can all spend a lot of time whining and complaining. And I think it's better just to get on with it, you know, and it's a privilege to do what I do.

[32:03] Patrick Oliver Jones: For sure. And speaking of that privilege for actors like myself, sometimes the privilege we get is just to audition for things. You know, I have to remind myself when I'm on in the audition room for those 90 seconds, I am that character, I'm the one taking on the role, so so bring it. You know, so there is a privilege, even in the auditions. And when it comes to Jersey Boys, I actually did get to audition for it. And Mary Shergerman with Terra Rubin casting, she prepped me before the actual audition. And afterwards, very rarely do you get feedback, but afterwards she actually gave the feedback. You know, why I didn't get it was that I didn't live in that world. And it took me a while to kind of figure that out.

But I was like, you're right. There, there's a personality, there's a certain type that directors like yourself are looking for that fit within the world of whatever you're casting. What was it about, you know, whether you want to talk about Jersey Boys or more broadly, what is it that you look for in the room when you're casting shows?

[32:58] Des McAnuff: You know, that that's a good question. And I think you can acquire a world around you and enter it. I mean, I think that is, in fact, the craft of acting. I suppose you need to have some indication from the performer that you think they will succeed when they do that. It's not like I needed everybody to be from Newark. You know what I mean? It's because you just have too few people to choose from. It's with all due respect to Newark, you know, there's there's a certain number of actors that come from Newark, but it's finite. And I'd rather be able to open up to, well, anyone who can play the part. So I think the what I look, this is one of the things I say to actors all the time, you know, all of these genres that we work in, whether it's psychological realism, if you're doing Anton Chekhov, if you're doing Shakespeare, if you're doing a musical, whatever you're doing, if you're doing Harold Pinter, the one thing they all have in common is they require truth.

They require truth. And the vessel may be different for each performance. In other words, if you're playing Pinter, you might spend as much time pausing as you do speaking. And that's a particular style of acting that's required. If you're doing Shakespeare, you're filling up that glorious language with your life and your, in fact, embracing living thought. It's not dialogue, it's thought. It may be the greatest record of human thought ever is the plays of Shakespeare. And I'm quoting Michael Langham, the great director there. So the vessel may be larger than it is if you're doing Williams, which is also poetic language, but different size vessel. Musical theater might be larger still, you know, if you're playing Nathan Detroit.

Whatever the size of the vessel, it has to be filled up with truth. So, in an audition, that's what I'm looking for. The kind of acting I can't stand. And this is an occupational hazard if you ever do musicals. Is that kind of I'm oh, I'm just kidding acting. I'm not really going through an experience. I'm just kidding out here. And that for me, that's just the ultimate toast scratcher. I just can't handle it. I want some kind of truth. I don't care what genre you're working in.

[35:38] Patrick Oliver Jones: The three stories shared in this episode are only part of the conversation.

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[36:19] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, speaking of uh directing other shows, we'll get to our third show, which is Big River.

[36:24] Patrick Oliver Jones: This was your your Broadway debut, actually, and it started regionally before heading to Broadway.

[36:30] Des McAnuff: And when a show goes through that, when it starts out of town and then it's working its way to Broadway, how do you know what changes to make, what to keep, what to let go, what to enhance? What is that process like for you?

[36:42] Des McAnuff: Well, on Big River, I would say it was trial and error. You know, Rocco Landisman came to me and my partners at the Dodgers and basically said, Would you like to do Huckleberry Finn? And he commissioned Bill Houghtman, William Altman, to write a book. By the way, Bill did a wonderful job on. So that's where it started. And we did, we didn't do any readings or anything like that. We did a production at the American Repertory Theater. Then I was in my second season at La Jolla Playhouse as artistic brand new theater. So it came from the American Repertory Theater to La Jolla. We developed it further. What we were doing at that point was adding songs. Robert Brewstein, who is the wonderful, extraordinary artistic director of ART, wasn't all that fond of music.

He thought of this as a kind of classic but so he wasn't particularly encouraging with you know adding songs. I felt differently, as did Rocco, I think. And by the way, Bob made a wonderful contribution about ART, but we wanted to kind of expand it when we got to La Jolla. I would say it was trial and error. And I'll be very blunt. Adapting Huckleberry Finn for the stage is no me feat. Some would argue it was in a way it was almost the invention of the American novel. But you read this and you go, Oh my god, how are you ever gonna get that thing on stage? And you know, there was this thing that I quite love, you know, that Twain, whatever his problems and issues, and he certainly had some, you know, that he had created maybe what Fiedler calls one of the five most powerful images in all of literature, which is a black man and a white boy floating down a river on a raft.

There's a wonderful new novel, by the way, from Jim's point of view called James, for anyone who likes Huckleberry Finn. And this novel is really a revelation. So we were struggling with all of that. There's a section in it that Twain referred to as the Poet of Violence, which is the Shepherd and the Grangerford feud in the middle of it. And it is really violent. And then the end of it's like a spoof on a Walter Scott novel. So talking about changing genres. And you know, and I really I write music as we mentioned, and I'd written a score for Marlowe's Dr. Faustus. And the back I, when I was in Canada, I wrote a musical called The Death of Von Richthofen for Joseph Patt that was done maybe about three years before that, which was an extravaganza, and God bless Joe for doing it.

I, you know, I'd written a lot of musicals, but I'd never really taken on a traditional American musical. So I had a lot to learn. And I hadn't at that point worked, you know, the work of Frank Lesser, which I learned a great deal from doing Frank Lesser musicals and studying him. So I hadn't done that work. So it was it really was trial and error. I think I had a completely different ending at ART for the first act than you know, in La Jolla. And then the one on Broadway was different too. You know, on the first preview of Big River on Broadway, we came down at, you know, maybe 1120. I mean, it was longer than even stereophonic. It was, it was a long, long evening, and which I think, by the way, is very good.

Stereophonic Daniel Awkins, well worth the three hours and 15 minutes. But for most musicals, that people consider that too long. And we were, you know, really in the right of the commercial zone there. So I cut 45 minutes, the first rehearsal after the first preview, 45 minutes. And, you know, believe me, I had to throw out a number of my little darlings with that. My favorite sequence had been at the top of the second act with the Duke and the King and I had to literally go after that with a chainsaw. It's always painful working with the chainsaw. And that was the case there. So you know the thing is it was a great learning experience. And sometimes I felt like it was the musical for all of us working on it was was new.

You know, it was relatively new the designers I mean when we won, we won seven Tonys and we were all for most of it was a Broadway debut. So there were times when and I'm not being facetious it did feel like the blind leading the blind with me being the blind and everyone else being blind too. So it was a learning experience and it ended up working out well. I mean the thing with criticism of any kind whether it's coming from family, the drama critics it's very dangerous to pay a lot of attention. And I'll tell you why if the praise is positive, I mean we've just come through a real high on Tommy where I'm you know we're reading like love letters and that's fantastic. The danger is that if you take that seriously you won't do the most important thing which is to criticize yourself and for the company you know for all of the collaborators to be self-critical.

If the people are saying terrible things and oh, this is, you know, this is should never have gone to Broadway. You know, that sort of thing. You're going, oh my God, you're so busy defending yourself that you don't take the time to criticize yourself. So both scenarios are dangerous. I have had thankfully some critics, and I'm not going to mention we should never say good things about a drama critic because they punish you for it. But I am had the great pleasure of having some really kind of extraordinary people write. And I've gotten to read them, but when I was a young playwright who were directing, I discovered that Walter Kerr's criticism had been published in several volumes. And I basically studied the 1950s and the 1960s and the American avant-garde with Walter Kerr as my teacher by simply reading those reviews. You can end up just like putting your dukes out, you know, and then you don't improve if you do that. That's very true.

[43:02] Patrick Oliver Jones: And was this being Broadway, did it have a sense of that grandness? Did it seem overwhelming, or because you'd been with Big River from the beginning, it was just the next step?

[43:14] Des McAnuff: You know, I think once you work in a Broadway theater, as you know, they tend to be really old buildings. We were at the Eugene O'Neill for that one. I've worked in many of them. It's really easy to demystify them because you know, all you have to do is step into somebody's dressing and realize that it's not all that grand. I mean, it has this kind of myth about it. The thing I like about it always feels to me like the plant. You know, if you were making something, it feels like the plant. It feels like, you know, I like the loading door. I like that part of the theater where things are made that are attacked, you know, anyway. And so I think when you go through it, it just if you have some sort of elevated sense of what a wondrous thing this is, you're brought down to earth pretty quickly.

You know, the theaters are the same, whether you're in La Jolla or ART or O'Neill. You know, you still have audience members out there, you still have to make sure they're taken care of, you want to make sure the actors are safe, you know, it's all the same practical things. I would be lying if I denied that there was a certain thrill, however, in getting that kind of recognition. And some of it had would have to do with, you know, when we had the Tony Awards that year were at the Schubert Theater, and Joseph Patt, who I've been working with quite a bit, was in the audience and said, Oh, gee, Joe, I didn't know you had anything up this year because it was a there weren't a lot of projects that year.

And he said, Oh, I don't. He said, I'm here because of you. And that, you know, that really hit home. And I do the same. I try, you know, to really support younger directors. What Michael Langham, who ran Juilliard, that hired me when I was, I think I was only 27 when I first talked during the Juilliard. He'd been in Stratford, Canada, where I ended up. He'd also been at La Jolla when it was shut down 20 years before I got there. And we were on a plane to Canada. We were both directing Shakespeare plays, or he was starting a shot at Stratford. And I said to him, you know, I just want to thank you for giving me so much attention. You know, you're so busy running Juilliard and his career was undergoing a kind of renaissance.

He was directing in London and in New York and I said, I just have to thank you for lavishing this attachment on me. He said, don't thank me. Just remember to do it with someone else one day and you know I've never forgotten that and those moments where you're lucky enough to be in the spotlight or you're lucky enough to hold the spotlight on somebody else those are really thrilling because a lot of it's just really hard you know a lot of it's really hard so when you get those moments I'd just be lied to say that I didn't enjoy them.

[46:07] Des McAnuff: Well one baton that you passed off was with Big River you handed it off to Michael Griff to direct the national tour. Now did you discuss it with him was there any interaction there before the tour went off?

[46:15] Des McAnuff: You know I actually got him to do the second national tour which we sometimes call the bus and truck. So I actually did do the first national which interestingly enough Mitch Lee produced for us with the Dodgers and with Rocco. So I did do that the first tour when it went out and I was insanely busy I was running La Jolla I was you know developing other shows but so I was working both as a producer and and director also writer composer so I was spread very thin Michael had been my student my assistant my associate and he directed for me at La Jolla so he he assisted beyond Big River and gave me a couple of great ideas by the way so I did trust him and he had not only did the bus and truck he did Japan and Australia.

And I simply at that point having a you know the job of running a theater, I was not able to break away. And he got I think a great deal out of that, and I think financially it helped him get on his feet so that he was able to go on to well this year he's got three plays on Broadway. So I'm extremely proud of him and glad that you know he benefited from Big River.

[47:51] Patrick Oliver Jones: Thank you so much for joining Why I'll Never Make It. And don't forget, you can become a subscriber and get bonus conversations by going to why I'll never make it.com and click subscribe or just look for the link in the show notes. Well, that about does it for me. I'm your host, Patrick Oliver Jones in charge of writing, editing, and producing this podcast. Background music in this episode is by Blue Dot Sessions and John Bartmann. Be sure to join me next time as we talk more about why I'll never make it.