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[0:31] Patrick Oliver Jones: In many ways, true success lies not in your own resume, but in how you're helping others build their resume, what you're doing to bolster and elevate others in their lives and in their careers. In part two of my conversation with Erin Cherry, we talk about this fundamental concept of helping others where they are and in reaching the goals that they want to reach. Because it's important that we recognize that our careers can accomplish so much more than just what we do on stage or on screen.

[1:26] Patrick Oliver Jones: Welcome to Why I'll Never Make It, or Win Me for short. Here you'll learn from fellow creatives sharing their own ups and downs in the performing arts. I'm your host, Patrick Oliver Jones, a professional actor and singer for almost 30 years. The website is why I'll never make it.com, where you can sign up for the Win Me newsletter. And by doing so, you'll get a free copy of my new ebook, Creative Wisdom, a collection of quotes and insights from previous podcast guests. All that and more at Why I'll Never Make It dot com.

[2:09] Patrick Oliver Jones: In part one of my conversation with Erin Cherry, we focused on her work on screen as well as on stage, particularly her Emmy-winning performance in Amazon Prime's Ever After, and a highlight of her career in sharing the stage with André De Shields. But Cherry has also found opportunity to produce her own works. And this episode will focus on two of those projects. One is a collaboration with Nigerian artists called NOW Africa. And this showcases contemporary African playwrights and builds a home base for artists from the African diaspora. Another is her show called Sundays with a Cherry on Top. Now this showcases Black culture in all of its forms, ranging from actor Jason Dirdon of American Soul, to Apollo Theater Executive Director Camila Forbes. Much like this podcast, she uses her show to highlight those making an impact in their community. And she explains how the show started and why it's so important to her.

[3:15] Erin Cherry: I just realized my, you know, in my community, you know, um, my tribe, there's so many men and women that I know that are doing amazing things that no one really knows about. And so, and I was just like, oh my gosh, how come no one knows about this, right? And so I remember when I was younger, there was a show on um Sundays called Like It Is. And Like It Is used to air locally every Sunday here in New York City. It was a go-to show that the Black community could go to to hear interviews about um the latest writer, poet, author, actor, artist, whatever the project that was happening in the community. And I was like, oh, we don't really have anything like that anymore or right now. And I tried to look around for it.

And so I used, I wanted to fill a need of, you know, it would be hence the name, Sundays with a Cherry on Top, because every Sunday you can click on an episode and hopefully it'll grow. Because I do want it to get picked up by a local TV station, which would be great. And you go and you sit, you see what the latest show is on Broadway or happening off Broadway, or what's the latest Black-owned restaurant, or who's the latest chef, you know, Black chef that's out there that I can go to and maybe, you know, eat in their restaurant because um the community does so much and there's not a place to go to find out where they are, and technology is a way to bring that all together. And so I just really wanted to start off with my friends, everybody I'm interviewing, I know, and getting new guests, you know, like yourself, how you like how we're getting to know each other and just, you know, and just I wanted to grow and spread in that way.

[5:01] Erin Cherry: But you know, like my first season, I interviewed Camila Forbes, who's the executive director of the Apollo, and the reason why I wanted to interview her is because so many people know about the Apollo, but they don't know that a woman is running it, that a Black woman is running it, right? So little things like that, and you know, or the artistic director of the National Black Theater, who's one of the youngest artistic directors in the country, you know. So I just wanted to bring awareness to the Black excellence that's happening around us. And when I say us, that’s everybody, because we contribute so much to the arts and to the world in general. I mean, we just got Kamala Harris, MVP. And so the little girl in me, I need to see images like that because I didn't have that growing up, you know, as far as um seeing a woman vice president and a Black woman at that.

And so it's important for me to have conversations and have joy and laughter. And it's been such a difficult time, you know, with the COVID and everything shutting down. And I didn't want to stop my show. I wanted to continue to have um live interviews. And so that's why I moved the um platform to, you know, from in-person to doing it on um, you know, a platform where it's safe, but I can still have the conversations and we can still laugh and just have fun because I was like, I don't want these interviews to be serious. I just want people to know what you're doing, I just want to laugh. I just want, and if we need to cry, but I just wanted to use it as a way to heal because I needed it more myself, which I didn't realize, you know, because when I was like, oh, I want to continue this, but when I started doing them and people started saying yes and said, yeah, we need this, it just, it's a healing balm for myself too, because I feel so good when I'm having the conversation and I'm laughing and connecting. And I just, it woke me up to wow, Cherry, you really need this as much as the other person does too.

[6:54] Patrick Oliver Jones: What have been some highlights or surprises, even as you've been doing Sundays?

[7:00] Erin Cherry: The highlight is just um the fact that I'm gonna I'm still sticking to it because I don't know if you feel this way, but it's a scary thing to have an idea like this and start it because one, you know, you don't know who's gonna like it, who's not gonna like it, and one, and then it's like, are the haters out there, people are like, who the hell does she think she is? Uh this is all the insecurities, right? We're talking about other actors and their insecurity and their doubts. This is one of those, this is the area where I feel the most insecure with the show, and like it has my name in it, is like who did the audacity to put my name in the title, you know, just as all these thoughts that I have that I'm thinking the other person's thinking about me.

And so that's been interesting. And this the nervousness of doing it and failing, meaning that no one likes it, no one watches it, no one cares. And that has been an interesting journey too. And it's a very scary journey, and the vulnerability I feel doing it, I did not see coming, right? It's very vulnerable to put something out there that's not really been done, or no one's doing it right now to feel a need and see it, see if it gets accepted. That's hard. That's a really hard part.

[8:08] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, it's interesting as you bring that up because I was thinking about my own journey with this podcast. And I would say for the, you know, for the first couple of seasons, I was really focused on the guests, which makes sense. We're bringing guests on, talking about their career, their life, whatever. And so my focus was always on them. But as I was like talking with a podcast coach, you know, trying to get better myself, they recommended, well, you need to push yourself too. It's your show, and you're bringing them on. So you need to, and I hadn't really thought about that. Like to me, it was just like it's almost like I put all the pressure on the guest as to whether the show succeeded or not.

And so then I was kind of off the hook, but really it is my show, and I needed to step up and be as much a part of what the show is, the brand of the show, as the guests are. And so I think for me that was a big moment in realizing how really important I am to the show and not just putting all that pressure on guests.

[9:08] Erin Cherry: Well, you know, it's so funny that you say that because that's the latest journey that I've had this past season. Um, because um do I do I do them live this last season I did them live, or this is my third season. And uh Bijorn, who's one of my producers, he's behind the scenes doing everything for me while I'm interviewing, like he's popping up the videos and popping up the pictures and getting my vision out there because it's happening in real time. And when we had our meeting, and I was like, I need help because I because people are starting to watch it, you know. I'm going from five views to now to 40 views. I'm like, woo-hoo, you know. And so I'm like, so I'm like, it's getting traction.

And he said the same thing to me. He was like, because what I wasn't doing was he's like, you're not um pushing yourself, you know, this is your show, your name is in the title. Because one of the new things that we've added to the show is when the show starts, I come on and I talk for a while. I come on and say, hey, this is my week. This is what I'm doing. And I was like, I didn't it never crossed my mind because I'm like, it's about my guests, it's about you know, my guest that comes on and who wrote this amazing book, like one, you know, or who has this restaurant who's a chef or whoever the guest is. And then, but it was like, but you I need to pop in and push myself and you know, my branding and my YouTube page, which I have up that that I put together and I got it all, you know, in order and you know, so it looks good and people can find it easily, and my social media page, you know, there's so much, and I'm a one-woman show, and so I'm just like, okay, this is a lot of work, but the idea of me pushing it and involving myself even more makes it more doable because I'm like, okay, this is coming for me.

[10:51] Erin Cherry: But again, it makes me more vulnerable and more nervous because I'm like, now it's like the stakes are higher because I'm more involved in it. And I'm like, oh Lord, this is it's very scary. It's like if it fails, failing in public, that's just yeah. It's it's it's nerve, it's nerve-wracking. Yeah, it's one thing in an audition room with five, seven people and and you don't do well. It's another thing when you have hundreds of views or this or you know, people watching, then yeah, the pressure's a little bit higher there. Yeah, that's what I'm feeling. That's a good word. The pressure, yes. But I'm gonna I'm gonna try keep keep doing it and see where it goes. People are saying yes, you know, it would be different if I was getting no a lot of no's and people didn't want to come on because I need the the guests to have the show, and and people are really the feedback has been really good and people are enjoying it and they they want more. So I'm gonna continue.

[11:39] Erin Cherry: Now, you had mentioned something that you weren't seeing a lot of these kind of unknown heroes within the black community and and raising their profile, their voice, you know, letting their voice get out there. And for you, it was important to see someone like you being represented. And I just wanted to ask what is the importance of that to you personally? What does it mean when you see someone like yourself?

[12:07] Erin Cherry: It it um it brings a healing, the little girl in me that needs healing. Because again, I mean, I look at the younger generation, and I look at, you know, how there's generation of kids who, especially black kids who are going to or who are growing up in a world where having a black president and then having a woman black vice president is the normal. I didn't have that growing up, right? And you know, my mother did her best. You know, we hit the Essence magazines, we had the Jet magazines, we had, you know, um, you know, like I was saying, you know, Diane Carrolls of the world, you know, and you know, the Lynn Whitfields of the world and Earth Kitts and just the Josephine Baker albums, you know, just all the things that my mother did to make sure that, you know, just know that they're black men and women out there doing things, right?

And it's just to have the insecurity of not feeling of growing up, even though those images were in the household, but of not seeing it and it not tangible enough. And I look at TV programming, how it's changing. I look at, you know, even my show After Forever and being on a show like that is, you know, a show, a show like After Forever probably wouldn't have been around 10, 15 years ago. You know, just the fact that that show exists, our show exists. Just the images, and I think about the little girl in me who cries like yesterday I cried so much because I didn't think in my lifetime that I would see Barack Obama and Michelle Obama, who is my ultimate Michelle Obama is just my number one, right?

She's always gonna be my floatist. She looked fierce yesterday, she looked so fierce. Like I just couldn't make it. When does she not, right? I mean, she's amazing, and she's my I mean, I'm so glad Dr. Joe Biden's there, but Michelle Obama's always gonna be my floatist. And just crying and the healing that it brings because I didn't have this. And I just remember thinking I would never see this. And I also remember thinking younger that I could never leave be a lead in a show, or I can never, you know, play certain parts because I didn't see them. And but now, you know, there's so many different black actresses that are coming up. You know, we have Tracy Ellis Ross, I think about, I think about Taraji B. Henson.

But the thing is, like, I can say a list as opposed to five people and there it being one black woman actors in Hollywood. Because when I was growing up, it was just Holly Berry. That was it, right? And so you think, I don't look like Holly Berry. How am I gonna get there? You know, I'm not gonna make it. And I have I'm still working through that trauma, because it's a trauma, you know. It's a it's like I was talking about earlier in the interview about how we're socialized. You to be socialized to know that you're not good enough, or that because you're black, that we don't, you're not welcome here because of the systemic racism. But now that we see all these women, you know, I see these women breaking down doors, it just it's a high it heals me.

But you know, there was a time where I was just like, is Holly Berry gonna be in everything? You know what I mean? For a while she was, you know, it was Denzel and Hallie. Because, you know, because of the the gatekeepers and what they thought black people couldn't do certain things, and and so because it was like if it was this black renaissance happening, you know, and you think about the Harlem Renaissance, you think about black actors and artists and Sidney Poitiers, and you think about the Hattie McDaniels and how the doors are starting to open and then they slam shut. You know, we had the Jeffersons, we had the good times, we had certain shows, but then slam shut, and then for a long period of time, those were no shows because it was like as if, you know what, you guys are becoming too successful, we don't want this, because of the blind spots that the that Hollywood has.

And then they give you Bill Cosby show, but that was it, and then different world. But now I can I I have so many apps on my TV and there's so much black content, you know, but I still have to heal the trauma of feeling like I could never make it or be good enough, or there will never be a black president. Like I have to heal through all of that. And so that's that's that's where that comes from.

[15:59] Erin Cherry: And and this next question, it's it's kind of a big question, but I I'm I'm curious of your opinion of it. Within entertainment, there are black plays, there's black television shows, there is black entertainment that is out there. And do you see that separation is a good thing, should continue, or will there eventually hopefully be a melding of it so that there's not white entertainment or black entertainment, that it's all together and we're all seeing different diverse voices and people within whatever entertainment we watch?

[16:33] Erin Cherry: I feel I feel like the um well, one, that's a good question. And two, I feel like if the writing room is a mixture of it looks like America, right? Then the storylines, whatever the show is, should be a mixture of the blending of storylines. And what I mean by that is what I don't want to happen because it's been happening, is what the changes that are happening is like when you look at a show like Atlanta, or when you look at a show like Insecure, the reason why they're doing so well and they're great is because the black, the writer's room is all black, right? Or you know, Donald Glover has his all black writer's room, which is hardly done, you know, and Issa Ray has her black writing room, which is hardly done.

Because of the fact that when the white writer's room is always white or all white, and they write the stories, they miss the boat, and then they're wondering why there's backlash, or they're wondering why people are not watching it, or they're wondering why black and brown people or whoever isn't, you know, whoever the um viewership is are upset. And so I feel like black people need to tell their own stories, Asian people need to tell their stories, indigenous people need to tell their stories, and that's the way that it needs to happen in order for us to appreciate other people's cultures because it'll be coming from an authentic voice. Now, if there's a show where there is a mixture of people in the room, then that is the show will reflect that.

I feel like I feel like it can't be, you know, Cherry, I use myself. Cherry wants to start the show, she wants to have the show, it's called whatever the show is, A, B, C D. And then I go into the room and I'm like, okay, here's a show about a white woman lead, and then the writer's room or the showrunner is a white person who doesn't understand my story. If that does happen, which has been happening in the past, but going forward, if that does happen, the showrunner and the people in the room, in my opinion, have to have people in the room who understand or listen to the lead of the show, like say if I'm the lead of the show to listen to what I have to say. But I feel like, yes, eventually, I feel like there are writers' rooms that are mixed and they're providing good content, so that can keep going forward.

But when when you're doing when you're doing something very specific, now I feel like it's an opportunity to bring more men and women of color to into the room, or give them the reins to say, you're trusted. We know you, we know that you know what your story is. Because for me, I get the sense, and just growing up in this country, I don't like the fact that there are white executives, men, women in the past who've run these big studios, telling people of color, regardless of background they come from, Muslim, if they're if they're, you know, Muslim, if they're black, white, purple, green, blue, right? Telling them that they don't know their own stories, that we don't know our own stories, that I wouldn't know how to write a black woman's story.

And so the room is mixed, then and it's about a black woman, then the person who's not a black woman needs to be able to listen to what is being said in the room by a black woman and be able to write it to be open enough to take notes. You know, this is I this you missed the boat here, oh, this is a blind spot here. Let's work on this here. The discussions need to happen. And so I feel like it's a possible way, but the only way that can get done is if you keep on the track of all black people write their stories, all Asian people write their stories, all Muslim people write their stories, like Rami, all those people in the room write their stories. And then when we get to that mixed room, everybody trusts everybody because there's measure of successes everywhere, right?

You can't say, oh, this um TV show failed or this show failed because you know there wasn't a white person in the room. Like, no, we proved the insecures are out there. We proved that Atlanta's are out there. So now let's come to the table, all of us on the same playing field and make a story happen. But we can't have a dominant voice. It has to be a level playing field, and the only way the love and playing field can happen is if we continue to tell our own stories so people can see, oh, they do know what they're talking about. Sorry, I just went on and on, but that's such a passionate part of me.

[20:45] Patrick Oliver Jones: No, no, that that's why I asked the question. Because it sounds like what you're saying is is laying that foundation of the black experience, Asian experience, white experience, Muslim, whatever ethnicity, whatever culture it is, to lay that groundwork so that these stories are more present, more accessible. So then when the writers of these shows start to mix and mingle and create a show that comprises all that, yes, then each of them are trusting each other that no matter what character they're writing for, it's going to be a true representation. It's going to be an authentic voice, no matter who's writing it within that room because they're all together creating one central story that comprises everyone.

[21:31] Erin Cherry: Yes.

[21:33] Erin Cherry: I'm like, I mean, you said it, yes, you said it the way that I mean I get passionate and I can go on and on, but yes, you got it.

[21:39] Patrick Oliver Jones: Thank you.

[21:40] Erin Cherry: I would hope that eventually we can get to the point where anyone can write about anyone and it be authentic. But I think you're right that there has to be some groundwork, some foundation there before we can get to that point.

[21:53] Patrick Oliver Jones: I agree.

[21:54] Erin Cherry: Yeah. And one of the ways that Erin Cherry is laying that foundation is through an organization that she helped found called NOW Africa. Their playwrights festival launched in the fall of 2015. And it brought together academics, artists, and theater lovers and exposed them to pieces from classic African dramatic literature, pieces from contemporary African drama, and critical discourse on the state of African theater with an American paradigm.

[22:28] Erin Cherry: One of my good friends, Ngozi Anyanwu, she is a playwright and she wrote Good Greek that was at the vineyard, and actress as well. We've been friends for a long time. She's like a Black American, and even though she's first generation Nigerian, we grew up different experiences from mine, right? And she was just like, I want to do this project, and I wrote this thing, and I want to do it. And then I was like, yeah, let's just do it ourselves. And so we went on this journey. We found a director. We have Mfoniso Udofia, who's another playwright who, you know, how August Wilson has a canon about the Black experience. She wants to have a canon based on her family, and so she's in the middle of doing that.

And so we did a first-generation Nigerian project. The room was overpacked. I was nervous that we had gone over fire code because it was so full of people wanting this. And so then Mfoniso and Ngazi and her sister Chi Chi, who is the talent manager, they were like, you know what, there's this niche. We need more African voices, we need to continue this. And so they decided, let's continue it, let's start a theater company, let's start a playwright festival. How can we get more African playwrights in the spotlight, especially Nigerian? Because that was a specific talk that we're having and putting them in the room, putting them on the stage, let the world know, sort of like with Sundays, letting the world know that there's so many African talents out there that you should know about. And there was a niche, there was a void, so we decided to fill it. So we created this theater company, and I'm an executive director, and I've been running it ever since.

[24:11] Patrick Oliver Jones: What would you say are special characteristics or features of the African art, literature, and theater that you focus on?

[24:20] Erin Cherry: The discussion, one of the topics of conversation that we talked about, and we still have conversations about is the African experience and the Black American experience, and can they go hand in hand? How is it different? How is it the same? Does one appropriate the other? As far as cultural and cultural where like there's just so many conversations that Mfoniso wanted to discuss and also to bridge the gap, right? You know, because there's a gap where Africans can trace their lineage back, and then there's the enslaved people who were stolen and kidnapped and brought to this country, and then can't trace back to who they are, and certain it stops at a certain point. And just what are the differences of those and how painful that is, and also to what brings us together?

What were we the same? And just to have those conversations because the grandchildren of the grandmother, which is the continent Africa, then we get specific to Nigeria, and how the mother can start to connect and bring back her children and bring back her grandchildren to become whole again. So those are the highlights of the conversations that a lot of people are not having. And that's what I love about what NOW Africa does to have those conversations and bridge the gap and also highlight, you know, because for example, we have writers who are African, and we have writers who are not African, but they talk about the Black experience, and that's another highlight that I think makes us special.

[25:49] Patrick Oliver Jones: Is there a standout piece of literature or maybe an artist that you've gotten to know?

[25:56] Erin Cherry: Oh my gosh, it's so funny because I've known all of them. Everybody, the first, I love this question because I just feel like for me, I was really surprised and pleased to learn so much more about the African community, that there's so many artists out there who are doing great things and making a voice for themselves, and also to just be in awe of the fact that there's a whole Nigerian artist community that I knew nothing about before this, and so that's why I'm in awe of it because you know you tend to get in this little bubble, and yes, I'm in the Black theater community here in New York City, but then you go, oh my gosh, there's even more beyond that. Like there's this artist in Sanggu. He wrote a play about, well, let me backtrack.

There's a play called The Day of Absence, and you know, it's about Black people disappearing and leaving, and then how would the white community survive, right? Because we are the foundation of this country, our ancestors built this country. That's the play, it stems from that. And so Sanggu was writing a play about that as well. And so that really struck me because we're still having that conversation. Where would the country be? The country cannot survive without us. We promote, we do the culture, everything comes from, you know, like we're looking at Stacey Abrams. If we didn't have Stacey Abrams, we wouldn't have Georgia, we wouldn't have Biden. You know, there's just so much happening in the community with conversation around this.

And so his play struck me about that, and also to how he's grown and his journey of finding himself. He did his DNA test, found out where he's from, Cameroon, and how his journey. I hope he writes a book about it, but his journey about learning where his people come from, learning the culture, learning the language, wanting to write about it, wanting to learn people new about it, wearing the colors, you know, going through a naming ceremony because he went to visit and got to know the people to watch somebody really start to get to know who they are and where their people come from, and how he walks in the world differently has been an experience for myself, and that's why for us, Black people, to really get to know our roots is a healing process because I've watched him heal over these years and really walk in his full self because there's some questions that have been answered about who am I? He can really answer that now.

[28:27] Patrick Oliver Jones: It sounds like a lot of projects that are coming to you, at least personally, are coming in a way to highlight other voices, to spread that spotlight onto other people.

[28:37] Erin Cherry: Yeah, you know, it's interesting because I think about this when other people point it out to me because of the fact that when I pictured my career being a certain way, right? I remember thinking at one point as a little girl, the best way I can put it is I look at Kerry Washington's career and I'm like, that was my career. I was gonna go to Hollywood, become this famous it girl, I was gonna marry a beautiful football player and have some babies and be on the red carpet and just be all over the place. And then I think about how really artistic my life is, and not saying that hers is not, but I think about how everything I do is grassroots. I have to go where my lane is. And if my gift and niche is not only in front of the camera, like with After Forever, something that came to me, I didn't go after it.

NOW Africa came to me. You know, I just I look at the certain things that come my way and saying yes and being open because you can fall into the trap of what you think your career should look like and what the path should be, and then you'll say no and you'll miss out because I don't want to be that artist that goes, no, I'm over here trying to be Hollywood. And then the older I get and the more I work artistically, I don't even care about Hollywood. If Hollywood comes to me and I get it, that's fine. But I just don't have the energy or want to pursue it. I just love the fact that I'm an artist, that I create art, I do a lot of things on grassroots, I produce things myself. I become an editor, producer, I wear many hats, and I teach acting, I teach cold reading. It's just I'm a, I can really say that I'm an artist and not an actor, and I prefer to be an artist.

[30:13] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, thank you so much for sharing these stories, but also sharing your own story with us on the podcast.

[30:19] Erin Cherry: Thank you. I can't wait to hear it. And I'm and thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.

[30:30] Patrick Oliver Jones: I really love what Erin says about being an artist and not just an actor. Acting is just one facet of the entire artist's palette. And it's important that we build up, strengthen, and work on all of the colors throughout our artistic journey. If you would like any help in creating that palette, working on the artistic or even the business side of your career, then feel free to reach out to me for coachings or consultations. Cherry is also another resource for that. Either of us would love to help you in any way we can at any point along your creative journey. You can reach out to me or sign up for monthly coachings at whyillnevermakeit.com. Check out the artist resources section with everything from coaches and dance classes to script consultation and headshots. That artist resources section is something that I've compiled over the last several months as a way for guests of this podcast, including myself, to offer our services to you.

[31:33] Patrick Oliver Jones: So again, that's the Artist Resources section at whyillnevermakeit.com. Well, thank you so much for joining me and Cherry today for part two of our conversation. I'm your host, Patrick Oliver Jones, in charge of recording, editing, and producing this podcast. Dylan Adams helps with booking the guests. Music in this episode provided by Blue Dot Sessions. Join me next week on the podcast with Broadway actress Adrienne Walker from The Lion King as we talk more about why I'll never make it.