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Patrick Oliver Jones:

Welcome back, listeners. Last week, Abbie Goldberg and Mason McDowell dove into their new musical, 504, as well as the obstacles they have faced trying to produce their own works. And it was such an insightful conversation, but there is still so much more to explore, and that's why I'm thrilled to have Abbie and Mason back here with me for the final five questions where we get a little more personal by uncovering lessons learned, hopes for the industry, and a deep, deeper look at what drives them as artists. So let us get started with question number one. We'll start with you, Abbie. What do you remember most about your first professional show?

Abbie Goldberg:

Let's see. I mean, I don't think it was very long ago. I had. Or let me think I had a show in the Sound Bites Festival this past year, and that might have been like, the first. First time that, like, a. A work of mine was fully staged. It was really fun. It was.

Abbie Goldberg:

It was really a good time. And I just remember how complicated it is to do all the logistics and. And be wearing so many different hats for. For this show 504 that we have coming up. We have a producer, we have a director, and it's. It's very helpful to have lots of. To not really be doing it all on our own. Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And for you, Mason.

Mason McDowell:

First show I can remember being a part of was the Grapes of Wrath. I played Winfield at Syracuse Stage. I was nine, so that'll. That earlier story I told last week about getting a role for Peter Pan, and then my mom pulling me out because she didn't want me to get a bloated head. Apparently by the time I was nine, then I was safe. I was okay. I was ready to take any compliments or criticism. So I remember that production for the immersion that I felt.

Mason McDowell:

I always loved, you know, playing make believe, but here it was supported in every sense. I could touch the props. I was encouraged to dive into the realism. I had to peel real potatoes on stage for an extended period of time. And to this day, I'm very, very good at peeling potatoes.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

See, you learned a life skill.

Mason McDowell:

There you go. Mom was really happy about that.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, number two, if you could give advice to your younger self starting out, Abbie, what would that be?

Abbie Goldberg:

Honestly, I. I would. I spent a long time feeling like I couldn't pursue art because it was, like, self indulgent and. And that it was too, like, frivolous. And I would just say that's ridiculous. Like, art is important. And there are ways to. To blend my community organizing background and skills with My artistic practice, I would say that, like, that the community that I'll build through theater is really powerful and is really important and really special and not to be afraid of that and not to devalue that.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

How about you, Mason?

Mason McDowell:

Allow your goals to change as you grow. Just because you change your goals does not mean failure. It means you're learning about yourself. I thought I was going to be a singer, songwriter. I thought that I was going to be on stage playing the piano, but I realized I didn't want that. So me being in this new avenue feels like a success, not a failure.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, that leads us right into the third question, which is what does success or making it mean to both of you? Abbie, we'll start with you.

Abbie Goldberg:

I mean, I feel like a broken record because I sort of just said this, but for me, it really is about the community that I'm able to build and be a part of. And. And I want. I want my work to help people find. Find a community. I want. I want it to bring people together. I really.

Abbie Goldberg:

I really believe in. In people and in people coming together. And I think theater is just such a special medium because it brings, you know, the cast, the audience, it brings together all these transient communities. And I just think we have so much to learn from each other. And if I can do that, then that's a success to me. And whether that means, like, you know, being able to. To pay people to value their labor, whether that means throwing a table read with my friends, it's just about getting. Getting in the room.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And for you, Mason, I'm going to.

Mason McDowell:

Interpret the question sort of literally. I feel like success for me is being able to tell stories, whatever stories I want to tell, and have enough people want to hear those stories over a period of time, hopefully my whole life, so that I won't starve.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Right, Right. Just the basic. I don't want to starve. That's success. Yeah.

Mason McDowell:

Yes, that's success.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I mean, having. Having our art also be our breadwinner can be difficult because, you know, because we. We get into art not to be rich. I mean, there are people who. Who certainly find wealth in it, but I think for most people, we don't do it to get rich. It is to service the art, but we have to service ourselves as well. We have to take care of ourselves. Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And that's a big part of it.

Abbie Goldberg:

I like Mason's answer. I'll take it.

Mason McDowell:

Check.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Take that one.

Abbie Goldberg:

All right.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And number four, what changes would you like to see in the industry moving forward? Abbie?

Abbie Goldberg:

Yeah, we sort of talked about this last time, but I want to see more disabled people on stage. I want to, I want disabled people in playing roles that were written for people with disabilities, authentically casted. I want to see disabled people leading revivals where maybe they, the roles were not initially thought of as for, written for disabled people. I want art that centers disability and art where characters just happen to be disabled. I just want us all to really involve and take seriously like this, this community, the largest minority community, as, like, as a community with tremendous artistic skills, potential and that I think everyone, disabled or non disabled, has so much to learn from.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, I, I think it's. Yes. What everything you're saying is right in the fact of providing opportunity and giving them a chance to show their talent. But I think it helps even people like me who may not have those same disabilities to watch someone interpret a piece differently, to sing a song differently, to bring something different to a character. I, I. Speaking of epic players, I saw their spring awakening and there was ASL mixed in there. There was people with different abilities. And there was one scene that I'll never forget.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

It was both a deaf actor and his voice on the stage. And they were, even though she was voicing him, they both became the same character in that scene. And it was something I'd never seen before and the way it was staged and it was, it really, even though it was so different and so it was just something I never would have thought of in the way. And it really heightened that scene, heightened that character. And it's a moment that I'll never forget, forget having watched that. So it can be just as empowering and powerful for the audience as well. For sure.

Abbie Goldberg:

Yes, definitely. Definitely.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And what about for you, Mason?

Mason McDowell:

My answer is going to borrow a lot from Abbie's, but I think in general, the larger scale you, the larger scale the theater industry gets, the closer you get towards Broadway, the more risk averse everything gets because it's a business. And I think that is antithetical to art a little bit because art is about taking risks. Art is vulnerability. And no discoveries are made by being careful. No new ground is tread when you don't take the road less traveled. So I, and I think things are improving. There's more and more original theater happening. It's a very small percentage, but I would hope to see a little bit more courage in championing pieces that push the boundaries.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I absolutely agree. And it's not just getting producers and writers to go there. It's also pushing audiences to open up to it. And I think it's kind of that chicken or the egg cycle of, like, well, producers don't want to do it because audiences don't want to watch it, but audiences aren't watching it because producers aren't producing it. So it's circle effect. And somehow, some way, someone's got to break that cycle and be like, okay, we're going to forge this new, and we're going to force audiences to look at things differently and take or take a risk with us. And I think if more producers did that, then, yeah, like you said, more and more new works and risks could be taken, and it's only going to help writers like you, you know, get your. Get your works on stage.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So. Absolutely.

Mason McDowell:

I'm intensely biased.

Abbie Goldberg:

Yes.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yes, exactly. All right, well, Last 1, number 5. Describe a personal lesson that has taken you a while to learn or one that you are still working on to this day. Abbie.

Abbie Goldberg:

Honestly, this doesn't put me in the best light. But. But just that, like, not to. Not to compare myself with other people. I think, like, it's so easy to feel like we're all in competition when. When we're not. Like, the world. The world needs all of our stories, and I have something specific to say, and I say it specifically, and that in itself is.

Abbie Goldberg:

Is worthwhile. It doesn't have to be the best. It doesn't have to be the worst. It's just. It's just mine. And that is, I think, still hard for me, especially, like, when you're getting so many rejections and you're getting so many just nothing backs. It's so easy to be like, why am I doing this? Like, why am I not so and so or such and such. But I think it's just really worth it to stay grounded in.

Abbie Goldberg:

Well. Well, that's not why I'm doing it. I'm doing it because I feel like I have something that I want to contribute and. And what is that? And how do I stay focused on that? So that's something I'm still working on. I think I've gotten better at it, but it's a lifelong journey, for sure. Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And how about you, Mason?

Mason McDowell:

Also, I don't think this puts me in the best light, but I think this is what this is about. It's to not invalidate art that falls outside of your taste. For a long time, I felt like I had this very defined idea of what I thought was good. And to some extent, I still believe. I feel that. But what I would do is I would Say, oh, I don't like that. I don't like this. Because it falls outside the purview of that narrow little circle that I've drawn that of what is high art, what is good art, and had to check off all of these boxes.

Mason McDowell:

But what I realized while I was living that methodology, my own art was becoming stale because it was just recycling the oxygen that was rotating inside of that little circle. I wasn't pulling anything from the outside. I wasn't seeing value in. I'll say. My lesson specifically wasn't seeing value in simplicity. I was constantly trying to prove that I had this ace in my. In my deck. I had this fancy thing that I could do.

Mason McDowell:

Oh, I can modulate. Look at all of this. Nobody cares. That's the truth. Can you communicate the emotion? And I started listening to a lot more country music. I started listening to specifically Jason Isbell, Ray Lamontagne. I started going back to Bob Dylan and seeing the lyrical genius and all of that. Even though some of that stuff is not to my taste, there is genius behind it.

Mason McDowell:

And the more you can love, the more you can feed into that specific circle that is your. That is your voice.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I absolutely agree with you. It's interesting that you brought that up, because I remember I was on a cruise ship, and, you know, there's not a lot to do on a ship whenever you're working one of those contracts. But we had someone who did silks, and she offered a lesson to us, you know, people who'd never done it before, to get on the silk and see what that feels like of carrying your own weight. And it was. It was very interesting. You know, I did a couple of those lessons. Not my skill set, but it was at least interesting to learn. But one thing that she told us was that she had to learn that there's these very complicated, intricate movements and things that she can do that are very precise and need a lot of attention and skill to do.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

However, the audience most often reacts to the easiest and simplest things that she does because it looks like it's difficult, even though it's so simple to do. And so there is that idea that the audience often tells us what they're wanting. And, you know, obviously, not that we need to cater to an audience at all time, but at the same time, like you said, simplicity. Sometimes the simplest thing can get the story across in a way that all of our notes and, you know, difficulty can't.

Mason McDowell:

And it is a collaboration with your audience. That's part of the mutual respect you have to have it is not entirely an insular experience to be a writer. You have to be thinking about who am I communicating with? You don't talk to yourself in the middle of a room. You're if and if you are, you're preparing to talk to somebody else. You're rehearsing what you're going to say to somebody else. So this is part of a communication and you have to respect that.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Absolutely. Well, this has been a joy to get to meet and talk with both of you. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast and talking about your musical and your process.

Mason McDowell:

Thank you, Patrick.

Abbie Goldberg:

Thank you. Yeah, thanks so much.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Thank you so much for joining why I'll Never Make It. And don't forget, you can become a subscriber and get bonus conversations by going to why I'll never make it.com and click subscribe. Or just look for the link in the show notes. Be sure to join me next time as we talk more about why I'll Never Make It.