(This episode was automatically transcribed into digital text, so some errors may present.)

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, hey there and welcome back. In the previous episode, Kevin Munhall and I had a fantastic conversation about his first Broadway show and then what it was like coming back to performing after being away from it for several years. But of course, there is still so much more for us to explore. And so now Kevin is back to to answer the final 5 questions. And this will give us a chance to go beyond the spotlight and hear about the moments and ideas that have truly defined his journey. So let us get going, Kevin, with question number 1. What has been your favorite or most memorable survival job?

Kevin Munhall:

I have to say that I've been very blessed to not have too many non-artistic survival jobs, but What, what does come to mind is like when I am in a slight artistic capacity, that is not the one I would choose. And so one of those being when I did a flash mob at a very fancy bat mitzvah party out in a castle in Long Island. Brilliant. Where we rehearsed for like a week and a half learning like a 10-minute dance medley and We were just one tiny thing at this giant party, and I was dressed up as a chef. I was like a pretend chef, but because it was a flash mob, I had to be, like, doing chef things for, like, a half hour beforehand. But they gave us no instruction on that. So I was just, like, at this party pretending like, oh yeah, I know where the potatoes are. I don't know anything.

Kevin Munhall:

For, like, a half hour before we just, like, go into this big song and dance number. So Things like that. Or once I was a tap dancing Army officer who was doing background tap dancing for, like, a 10-year-old YouTube sensation on Ellis Island for a private party of, like, Singapore businessmen.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

That is so specific.

Kevin Munhall:

The wild things that apparently are happening in New York City at all times that I didn't know was happening. Um, yeah, people—

Patrick Oliver Jones:

oh my gosh, no, I, I had one of those for Halloween. I, I, I was— they had set up this haunted house again. It's one of these like Long Island houses that are on like acres. It's a huge house. And so they had their own Halloween party and part of it was this haunted house. And so, yeah, I was dressed up. Yeah, I forget what I was dressed up as, but you know, the blood and everything and the torn clothes and just having to like scare little children. I actually enjoyed that part.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

That was, that was fun. But yeah, the things we do, things we do. You never know.

Kevin Munhall:

Could be worse.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So number 2, if you could give advice to your younger self starting out, what would that be?

Kevin Munhall:

I wouldn't give advice to him. And the reason I wouldn't give advice to him is that—

Patrick Oliver Jones:

You're just negating my question. How dare you?

Kevin Munhall:

No, I will give you something. But the reason I wouldn't give you— I wouldn't give any advice is that he was the— I was the type of person that took everyone's advice to heart 100%. And so I just would soak up anything and everything that everyone told me, and I just did it without thinking. And so I was just constantly living everyone else's truth and reality instead of my own. And so that led me down many different paths that weren't the right one. And the other thing that I will say is that my problem wasn't a lack of advice. It was like a lack of deep understanding of myself. And so, you know, like in particular, I have this like 8-week program that I run for performers right now, and I feel like I created this entire program as like a love letter to my 18-year-old self.

Kevin Munhall:

As this thing, I made this as the thing that I wish I did when I was starting out in this business to keep me from being so tight and anxious and worried at all times. And so I would, I would, I would give— I would make him enroll in my program because it's the thing that I needed more than anything was a better understanding of my body so that I wouldn't have enjoyed the cool experiences that I had so much more. And so my work would be so much better.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, I think that— I know for me, that has been one of the hardest things as a performer is to really figure out who am I? What do I bring to the table? How am I different? How, how am I— not, not in a selfish way, like how am I unique? What makes me so special? No, but just like, what is it that sets me apart and what is it that I can truly bring? Which goes to that question of this part's for me or this part is not for me, or this particular show is in my wheelhouse, this particular show maybe not. So I think as a performer, it took me the longest time to figure out what am I? Who am I apart from, okay, I know I can sing. I've been singing and acting. I can do musical theater. I know what I can do, but who am I behind that? And I think that that can take people a long time to figure out. And also because it's changing as you get older, as you move, you know, all these different factors that go into that.

Kevin Munhall:

Yeah. And I also would say that the more we are kind of only hyper-focused on the musical theater world, the less we learn that often, or it takes longer for us to learn that because, you know, we're just If, if all you are is musical theater performer, that is not a very interesting, like, background to come in with into the room. Like, who are you? I am musical theater performer. Cool. We've seen a few of you already.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That simple question I've heard from casting directors, but also just, you know, coaches and different things like, yeah, that chitchat before you get into the audition. Sometimes they'll ask how your week was to talk about something completely unrelated, something else in your life can bring dimension not only just to your life, but brings dimension into the room and to their perception of you. And it's like, oh, this is a well-rounded person, or, you know, hey, I wouldn't mind asking more about that. And it just gives more dimension to who we are and what we bring to the room.

Kevin Munhall:

Yeah, there's actually some interesting research showing the correlation between the kind of number of different self-identities we kind of have, like the number of different kind of groups of people that create part of our identity and the amount of self-esteem that people end up having in themselves. And so it seems like the more different kind of identities you can kind of hold and remember and connect to actually help build self-esteem within yourself because you're not relying on just that one part of you to be it. And then the stakes of like whether that thing goes well are enormous if it's, if it's your entire identity versus if it's just a part of the pieces puzzle of who you are.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So multiple personalities is a good thing. All right. Well, number 3, what does success or making it mean to you?

Kevin Munhall:

I think that success is truly spending as much time and mental energy on the things that you want to spend it on as possible. Like, it's truly, I think success just means like how much of what you do each day is something that you want to be doing versus something that you feel like you have to be doing and how much of your mental energy is spent trying to figure out what others want of you or figuring or just like not spent in the here and now. Because, you know, you can have it all. But if, if mentally you are always worrying or always trying to figure something out, then like it's what is it all for truly? And so I really think like the people who've made it are the people who aren't having to constantly kind of do things to try and impress other people or to try and figure out what other people want of you, or, and, you know, have a bit of agency in that way.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, I've heard from several different places and things that I've read recently, and it's been honing in on that, that very slight shift of Having to do something versus getting to do something. And just that simple adjustment of bringing more joy into what you do, bringing more freedom, curiosity, all the things that we've been talking about, just bringing that into what you do.

Kevin Munhall:

Mm-hmm.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, that's a game changer with just your life, but also, also in your career for sure. And number 4, what changes would you like to see in the industry going forward?

Kevin Munhall:

Hmm. One tiny one is like, in the Broadway community, I think we need a weekend. I think we need 2 days. I, and I am convinced,

Patrick Oliver Jones:

yes,

Kevin Munhall:

that you can do 8 shows in 5 days. We, I, I've done it plenty of other places and it works out just fine. So like, that's a tiny one, but like big picture, all of my time and energy right now is focused on training and trying to change all of the BFA programs and BA programs, all the training programs to include this kind of nervous system literacy and training that I'm doing now. Like, I don't want people— like, in general, no one cares if you can sing and dance and act. They only care if you can sing and dance and act in front of people when the pressure is on. And so teaching people what that actually means, like, why is there a disconnect between those 2 things and like what is causing the disconnect, I think is like should be so centrally focused and In the training process, because that's literally the job you're asking people to do. And so giving people skills without the actual capacity to be able to handle nerves, handle anxiety, to handle, you know, the being on and then being off and being on and being off of this business, I just think is doing people a big disservice. So like, I want this kind of training to be in all of the, all of the training programs for theater performers.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, yeah. There needs to be training, not just to prepare for, you're ready to do a show, but you're ready to have a career. It's that longevity, that persistence, that dedication mindset that makes you look at things differently. Because I don't need to just do it for this show or for this run. I need to be able to do it for the next show. I need to be able to do it between shows.

Kevin Munhall:

Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I need to be, you know, there's so much that goes into a career versus just doing one show. Yeah. Yeah. And finally, number 5, describe a lesson that has taken you a while to learn or one that you are still working on to this day.

Kevin Munhall:

That I don't have to be Derek Klena to be successful. I feel like I love the guy, he's great. Um, but just that like I spent so much of my time, you know, as I've spoken about, thinking that like it only meant I was successful if I could sing a high B every single night 8 shows a week. And, and that was, that was, that was it. If I could do that, I was good. If I couldn't do that, I was just not good. And I think it's taken me so long to fall in love with the things that I can do and even to put the things that I am good at at an equal weighting with the things that, like, someone like Derek is good at. And so because it's very easy in our, you know, especially starting as a dancer, it's very easy in our business to feel like you're at the bottom of the of, of the entire hierarchy of structure.

Kevin Munhall:

Mm-hmm. The least appreciated, the hardest worked usually. And, and it's hard not to internalize that as like an actual truth that like that means you're less talented or less valuable in some way. And so I think it has been a— it's been a long process to kind of fall in love with what my voice does rather than chasing something it doesn't do as the one marker of whether I'm good at something.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Hmm. Well, how can people find you, find out more about you and the different kind of training and coaching and classes that you do?

Kevin Munhall:

Yeah, I am. I have a website called habitdisruption.com and there's a section on that for performers. And I have like an 8-week program that I, that I take people through all of these different skills. And so that's probably the easiest way to find me. You can find me on Instagram @kevin_munhall, where I, I put out so much free information and content on all of these things. Those are probably the easiest ways to find me.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, this has been a joy to talk to you and the experiences that you've talked about and the tools that you've given us, even in just this conversation, have been great. So I really appreciate you coming on the podcast.

Kevin Munhall:

Of course. Thank you for having me.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Thank you so much for listening to Why I'll Never Make It. If you'd like to listen to the podcast without all those pesky ads and get bonus audition stories, well then all you have to do is support and subscribe to the podcast and you'll find a link to do that in the show notes. I'm your host, Patrick Oliver Jones, in charge of writing, editing, and producing this podcast. And the theme music you're hearing was created by me. With additional music by Jon Bartmann. Join me next time as we talk more about Why I'll Never Make It.