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Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, hello and welcome back. Last week you heard from members of the New York Theater Company: Katherine Winter, Josh Zacher and John Kroft. I had a fantastic conversation with each of them as they told stories of professional struggles they faced as theater artists. But there is still so much more for us to explore. And now all three of them are back to answer the final five questions here on why I'll Never Make It. This will give us a chance to go beyond the spotlight and hear about the moments and ideas that have truly defined their journeys.

So let us get going with question number one. What has been your favorite or most memorable survival job?

Katherine Winter:

Being a tour guide. I did this before voyeur and before all of this. And I think I've always, I was very fortunate enough to travel a lot growing up. My again, my fabulous mother and I have a brain that really like absorbs information. And whenever we'd go anywhere, we'd walk by the same place next. He'd be like, well, fun fact about this, I was like, how do you know that? I was like, isn't the tour yesterday? And so I feel like I always knew it was me. Like my survival job as a performer was going to be like giving tours. It feels very theatrical.

You got to have your bits. I'm going to say I get to nerd out on other people so my friends don't have to deal with it. And I worked especially with on location tours as well, the film and TV tours of the city. So I've mostly given Central park tours in the past where it's half like film and TV history and half like history of the park. And there's just so many hidden secrets and there's so many wonderful things and being able again, it's helped me not get jaded about New York City because you're seeing it through fresh eyes all the time, which is so lovely. And it was a great gig as a performer because you can schedule your day around the shift of the tour and not like an eight hour shift in the gym or at a restaurant. And you know, it doesn't entirely kill you. And it's not a bar in the middle of the night. I'm much more morning person.

Josh Zacher:

I have been so fortunate. I work at the New York City Public School for Dance Ballettech. It was founded by Elliot Feld. It's actually in the 890 Broadway building, the Michael Bennett building, where like if you ever go to Gibney, there's an AMC in the first floor. Anyway, I've worked there for 10 years. It's kind of been my, my stability. I've, I've grown a little bit there. I have the most incredible boss. Love you, Janelle. And yeah, I've. It's, it's really great. I get to go all over New York City and recruit kids to come to take our intro program. It's a phenomenal place where it's, it's public school and kids get conservatory style training as long as all of their academics. I love it. It's hands down the best survival job I could ask for.

John Kroft:

I worked in a wine shop for eight years, on and off between acting gigs.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And so why did this particular retail job, why did it mean so much to you?

John Kroft:

Because when I graduated from school, drama school, I, you know, I did what I thought every actor is supposed to do, which is I started catering for a little while, but I hated that. I tried waiting tables, but I also, I hated that even more. And I was also terrible at it. I was walking. I was vaguely interested in wine, but I didn't know anything about it. I had just kind of learned that there was sort of something to it. I walked by a wine shop one day on a hot summer day.

The store was empty. There were three employees who were swirling wine and smelling it and drinking it and talking about it. And I thought that's how I would like to pay my bills between acting jobs. I thought, this is great. I can study my sides in a quiet, empty store. I can sit around. I can learn something that I think is interesting. And yeah, so I found this story that hired me even though I knew absolutely nothing. And he really, over the years, the owner was incredibly knowledgeable and incredibly kind, and he gave me like a world class education in wine.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. I was about to say, so you feel like a sommelier now where you can kind of talk about wine?

John Kroft:

Yeah, I actually, last year I worked my first job just for a couple months as, as a sommelier at like a very, very fancy fine dining restaurant. So I, I don't have the, the certification pin, but I've. I've worked as a sommelier and like, as other jobs kind of adjacent to that in world. And I always say, like, I think the reasons why I fell in love with wine are a lot of the same reasons I'm in love with theater, which is that they're communal experiences. They're meant to be shared with people. Their ephemeral, you know, of vintage is, it's here and then it's gone. And when, when you do have that bottle of wine, that is a particular vintage. It represents, you know, the winemakers who made it, but it also represents the winemakers who made it at the time that they made it with the setting and circumstances of how they made it. And it's. It's like an artistic expression of a specific time and place. And theater is very much that way. It's not set, you know, in amber, like film. So I, yeah, I love all of those things. It makes it more special.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Sounds wonderful. Yeah. And number two, if you could give advice to your younger self, what would that be?

Katherine Winter:

Everything you want to happen is going to happen. It's not the way you planned it. It's not any way you could ever imagine it or plan it to be, but it's all going to happen. You know, in college, oftentimes they make us write like, a letter to ourselves a year later. And then you get. You get them back and you're like, wait, this actually did happen. I thought it was going to happen of, you know, I want to do. I want to work in regional theater. I want to book. I want to book this gig, or I want to. Whatever it is. You're like, oh, I did do that, but I actually did it over here and with these people instead. And that led me to meeting these people and how exc. Exciting over here, honestly. Even my business partner, Shelina Kennedy, I met her when I was 12. I saw every show she's been in since she graduated school. And I started as a fan. Like, I have photos of her, like, with me in braces. And then I went up to her and I asked for what I wanted one day, and I was like, hi. When she started coming in Toronto, I said, hi, I love what you do. Like, can I work for you? And then we became dear, dear friends. And now we are business partners, and she's one of my closest friends, and we get to work together and make the art we want to see and make things happen. Now we'd rather people to do it for us. And that's really exciting.

Josh Zacher:

Randy Graff, Tony winner Randy Graff. She has this really great saying of, like, nothing to prove, only to share. And I think that. That I wish I could have understood that more. Like, I think I spent so much time being frustrated with, like, what everyone else was doing or feeling like I wasn't good enough or this, that, and the other. But I just kind of, I wish I had sort of let myself be me sooner, you know, I mean, and like, you have to Grow. You have to kind of go through that period in your 20s where, like, you're not doing anything right. I mean, you've got to celebrate the small wins. Whether you've got to celebrate, like, you can't. You can't live your life in someone else's shadow. Like, yes, the person next to you might have just been in the Tony-winning Best Musical, but like, you just booked Camelot at the Engeman and like, that's a great thing as well. And like, mazel tov. And like, you're getting to work and you're doing the things and like, yay. I don't know if that's good advice, but I guess that's what I would give to my younger self.

John Kroft:

I think it would be what I said before, which is just kind of like that the most valuable thing that I have is my point of view as an artist. And to like, that's the thing that is worth honing and developing. Technique is obviously very important, but the thing that makes you indispensable is your unique point of view.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, exactly. Well, number three, what does success or making it mean to you personally?

Katherine Winter:

I want to have a long career in the arts. I always want to keep performing. I want to perform on Broadway. That might be in a year. There might be when I'm 80 and I'm happy with any and all of those options. I want to always perform. And I also from success making it in terms of. For the theater company itself, which has really been a focus for a lot of this year for me, is being able to have a couple of things that are successful that can sustain the art we want to make.

Like, I really hope that making it would be for The Circuit to be able to make money to keep itself open and hopefully to have enough for us to be able to do other amazing works, to be able to fund other shows in development, to really spread the word and to be able to keep the ship afloat and not being terrified every single, you know, at the end of every year, be like, is it going to happen? We have all these big ideas. We want to make them happen. How do we make them happen? And it's just being able to have that first really big success to be able to move it on to the next thing.

Josh Zacher:

Okay, here's the problem is. And it's. It's both the problem and the excitement is everything about success in this industry is ephemeral. Like, nothing lasts. Like, even Hamilton, like, yes, it's still grossing $2 million a week. And it is. But it's like, we. We don't. You know, we aren't talking about Lin Manuel the same way we were 10 years ago. He's phenomenal. He's genius. He's gonna. You know what I mean? It's just, like, so. So to say, I. Like, I. I don't know. I don't know that I know what I made it would feel like. I think when I did the prom, I felt really kind of relieved. I was like, okay, Like, I see fruit of my labor. When I got to work at the Muni, that was something I had wanted for a really long time.

You know, like, there. There are, like, career, this show, the circuit. Getting to do that has been a huge, huge personal and professional accomplishment. Yeah. I mean, listen, if we're being, like, the realest of real, like, would love to win the Tony Award for best choreography, but if we're taking it from, like, a slightly less material place, it's really, like, a thing I could do now, but just to feel fulfilled and just to feel comfortable and confident in, like, I have work. I am working. Like, at 22, you're like, I just want to be a performer in a Broadway show. And now at 32, I'm like, you know, I would, but I would probably rather be, like, the associate choreographer of a Broadway show and Slash.

Or the dance captain and slash. Or the choreographer. You know what I mean? I mean, I think if I were to be lucky enough to get to be the associate of a really big. A Gatsby type of a thing or something that could take me around the world, that would be incredible. I'm incredibly lucky. It's been. It's been a very fruitful couple of years, and I've gotten to make a lot of theater with a lot of really amazing people, so I cannot complain. I cannot complain at all. And I'm very grateful.

John Kroft:

Oh, I love the name of your podcast also, by the way. I just have to say, like, it's just such a. I don't know that that struck a really deep chord with me. And this question is a question I think about a lot, and I still really wrestle with, and my definition is ever changing. I feel like sometime, sometimes it's been, oh, to be financially stable. Sometimes it's to have an I. To have a sense of security that I'll always have future employment as an artist. Sometimes I think of it probably now.

I think what I would say is, like, if in cocktail party conversation, if someone says, like, what do you do? Or what Would I know that you do. And I can list two or three things that most people, even people who aren't in the arts would immediately recognize that would be making it. But I don't like any of these definitions because they're all about. They're all about security and stability, which it kind of doesn't exist. Or they're about what other people think, which doesn't exist. And I try to think of it a little bit more in ways of like what I'm doing right now, working on the circuit, it ticks all of my boxes of my wildest dreams coming true. I'm working on completely original material that excites me with really talented artists whom I respect and get along with. And I'm making rent, doing it. So what more do I need?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, on to number four. What changes would you like to see in the industry moving forward?

Katherine Winter:

I've been saying this for a decade now and this is a big one and that I hope to achieve in my lifetime. I want there to be 20 more Broadway theaters, 10 of which have to be transformable non traditional spaces because people always talk about how to bring downtown uptown. And I love a proscenium theater. I am the biggest theater history nerd. As you can see on my wall. I have Nona Nanette and Mame and New Girl in Town and the ACT and Irene. I love the theater. I love going to a Broadway show.

But if you have to always restore the historic theater back to its old place, you can't do these immersive shows. You can't, you know, making Natasha Pierre possible, making Here Lies Love possible, bringing those costs down so they have a chance to recoup can only happen if the space can be transformable. And that can only really happen in a new venue because the historic landmark should remain that way. So we need 20 more houses to kind of get rid of a lot of that backlog of shows that are trying to wait to come in. And as they wait to come in, the landlords can charge them more and take advantage of those that have the capital to be able to come in. If you go to transferable, you bring those costs down. And the other big thing that would cut budgets a huge amount coming from Canada is if there was universal healthcare in America. I don't know if I'm the one to achieve that, but if everyone knew they were insured, everyone's budget would probably go down 20 to 30%.

And which is so important. And it's amazing. It's a great benefit of being a union Member. And we can talk through the logistics of whether or not those are the best plans for those actors and whatever it might be. But it just is a huge cost that, like, if that was something that we all felt better taken care of by the government itself, I think that would make a really huge difference in making Broadway more peaceable. That's part of why doing shows in the West End is so much cheaper, because everyone isn't worried about paying their medical bills.

Josh Zacher:

Well, I want us to embrace dance a little bit more. I am so happy Shmika Dune won best Musical. Because we've been in this place where we've been giving best musical to the kitchen sink drama of five actors, which I love, which I love and respect. And it completely disrespects to me part of the art form. You can give it once, but when you give it 10 years in a row, I get a little. I get a little sassy. I would also love for us to understand that, like, broad, this is going to sound so shitty. Like, I want us to stop pretending that Broadway is about being artistic.

It's about being commercial. And I don't mean that cynically. Like, there's amazing stuff. Like, you know what I mean? Like, the circuit isn't. I mean, we're commercial and we're. You know, we're designed to make a profit, but, like, we're not designed that we have to make $2 million a week like that. Unfortunately, because of inflation and unions and yeti, like, it doesn't really matter if it's good. It just matters if it sells.

And I would like, love for us to move into a place where we all collectively understand that and that it's not about, like, really anything else. I mean, it is. It's about everything else. It's about a good experience. It's about the audience experience, it's about the company experience. But it's like, really, it just comes down to, like, is this going to make a million dollars in a week? And if it does, you can continue to do it, and if it doesn't, you're not going to continue to do it. And that's unfortunate. And I've never been someone who was like, I want to do weird shit in the basement of a bar. Like, I think that you can probably see some of the best theater ever made. But I've always had the mind of, I want to do something that can be. At least have the shot of being commercially successful. And I just think. I wish. I mean, one, it would be great if the government Would want to. If we could do, like, a British model where we could get some subsidies rolling.

I don't see that happening anytime soon, but we'll try. But no, I mean, it's just every. Because of this. I guess maybe the better answer is I would love for there to be less scarcity. Because from scarcity becomes all of our other problems as we start talking about all these other things and we get mad about these people being cast over these people and, like, people wanting more and people having less, and it's just like, yeah, but like, yes, like, none of that is good, but it is all the reality. And I would love for us to, like, all kind of get on the same page about that that's never going to happen, but that if I can speak my. My utopia into existence, that's one that there's just, like, endless fun so we can all have our Broadway shows. But the second would just to be that, like, we could all understand and just that there would be resources, like, very clear resources, things that, like, everyone understands the way that we read playbill.com, the way that we read the Broadway Briefing, like, shit, that, like, everyone just understands would make me so happy.

John Kroft:

I'm getting really tired of all of the musicals and plays that are just of known intellectual property. Like, can we please? Can we please? I don't know how we change it as well, but, like, just there are so many incredibly talented writers. Every other TV show that people are obsessed with watching the head writer or at least two or three of the writers on. There are very talented playwrights who have probably multiple new plays about pressing contemporary issues that people would be interested in seeing. And yet those are not the things that are being produced on highly accessible levels. So, yeah, I just would love to see Broadway bringing in more new plates. And I guess that's the thing that bugs me the most about the intellectual property thing is that to me, it just feels so transparently, like, well, we know this will sell, right? Like, it just. It feels very motivated by fear. And I'm just always of the belief that people don't really know what they want. So original stories are just as likely to fail or be mediocre as known intellectual properties, and you have a greater chance of discovering the next big hit.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, onto the last one, describe a personal lesson that has taken you a while to learn or one that you're still working on to this day.

Katherine Winter:

I think the hardest lesson is that it will happen. I don't know, probably 10 years ago now, I was like, I Want to do a course line so bad, and someone's like, you will. And I was like, but I want to do it now. All the auditions, like, you'll do it. It's not going anywhere. And I feel like there's such a. Especially in New York, especially on social media. There's like, it has to happen right now.

It's not happening now. I'm failing because I'm not doing this right now. It'll happen. New York's not going anywhere. The art of theater making isn't going anywhere. It may not happen the way you want it to happen. It's the same thing I try and tell my younger self that I still haven't learned, I guess, but, like, the things you want to achieve, if they are true to what you want to happen, they will happen. It'll just take time.

And it may not happen in the way you want it to happen, but it. It can and it will happen. You just have to keep working on it and keep checking it. Chipping away. And the next thing you know, you'll turn around and be like, wait, I'm almost there. Especially in theater and the arts, where it all feels so intangible. Like, you're really making something out of nothing, and it feels so far away. You feel both like, you know, I've made the joke of, like, you feel so close to your dream and then also, like, never further away.

Like, there was one night I was at a Broadway opening night of a show when you're with, like, the whole casting fan team, you're at the thing, and you're like, wow, look, I'm so close, I can touch it. The next morning, I get up at, like, 4am to, like, go to an open call for, you know, non-Equiy regional theater over here. And it's like, you couldn't be further away. And, like, somehow that dichotomy is also what makes New York magical. I'm like, then you also turn around, you see the Empire State Building, and it's like, wow, you live here, you get to be tired in New York City.

Josh Zacher:

It's allowing myself to just have confidence and appreciation for what I have, not for what I want and to be. You know, I think I'm very good at, like, focusing on the positive in terms of, like, being grateful that it happened, being lucky to be there. But I think I can fall into the trap that a lot of us fall into of, like, but what's the next? But what's the next? And who am I and what is this? And if I'm not doing this. And I am finally at a place where I have built some things for myself that I'm really enjoying. And I'm just sort of listening to myself more and trusting myself more. And that, I think is a tough lesson that I'm still working on. And it's one thing, I mean, it's like I've done this thing since I was in college where I write five things I'm grateful for every day. And it does help, but it is a difference between kind of doing the actions and the jump to actually feeling centered and grounded and fulfilled on the inside.

John Kroft:

I often forget that being in collaboration and being in community is really one of the reasons, main reasons why I do this. And I think that, you know, the process of being an actor who is auditioning for things, especially now that everything is more or less done by self tape lesson theater. But I just find it to be such a deeply lonely process, really isolating. And that orientation, I think puts me in a very competitive mindset and a very scarcity based mindset. And I. It just makes me forget so easily that what I loved about theater to begin with, the reason why I wanted to go to school for it and make it my life, is that it's just, it's that feeling of being in a rehearsal room or feeling like you're at summer camp and you're forming all of these deep bonds with the artists that you're playing with to create something completely new and fresh.

And just because I don't have a job or a gig right at this minute doesn't mean that, that, that I have to deprive myself of that. Like, there are lots of different ways, I think, to foster that sense of community and collaboration with fellow artists, even when it's not strictly in a professional context. And that's something that I'm always forgetting and trying to remember and trying to like, foster.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, I think that that's something that you're establishing or at least continuing to work on with your theater company. That sense of collaboration is something that certainly the three of you have together.

John Kroft:

Yes. Yeah. And that's why I signed on to be a part of the theater company. That was sort of the initial pitch and I was like, sign me up. And centering it on New York itself and calling it New York Theater Company. That's also always very much been a part of that conversation, is just trying to capture the spirit of what this city feels like.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Thank you so much for listening to why I'll Never make it for early access to Episodes and bonus audition stories, visit why I'll never make it.com and click subscribe or use the link in the show notes. I'm your host, Patrick Oliver Jones, in charge of writing, editing and producing this podcast, and the theme music you're hearing was created by me, with additional music by John Bartman. Join me next time as we talk more about why I'll Never Make It.