Patrick Oliver Jones:

Hello again. Our last episode with Patricia McGregor covered so much ground from developing workshops, working with Katori hall, creating new work, and sometimes just being able to pay the rent. But one of my favorite parts of every conversation is when I get to ask these final five questions. It's where we get to hear about personal lessons and hopes for the industry and those moments that truly, truly define an artist's career. So, Patricia, let us get started with question number one. What do you remember most about your first professional show?

Patricia McGregor:

I remember first about my first professional show being in the wings and hearing this moment of silence. It was Deborah Warner and Fiona Shazma Dia. So I'll say my first professional New York show. I'd been very lucky to grow up as a performer. I was in Orlando, Florida, at a time where Disney and Nickelodeon were there, so I had an agent at a young age. So I performed for a long period of time, but it felt like moving to New York. My first professional show in New York, stage managing this production of Padilla, where working with, and I'll still say to this day, the collaboration between Deborah and Fiona is unparalleled. And I was tasked as a young performer with.

Patricia McGregor:

There's a moment in the death scene where I'm tasked with throwing the blood. It became a very, you know, for a long period of time, I would say that was my calling card. I threw the blood in Madea. And it's this very precise moment where actually nothing violent is physically happening on stage. Everyone is off stage, and there's this suspended moment of light and sound. And under this black and white concrete and glass scenic design, I just was tasked with, like, throwing this slash of blood. And you could hear the gasp in the audience. You could just hear this, like.

Patricia McGregor:

And people still. This was almost 25 years ago when I say, yeah, I did that Medea. People still gasp. I mean, the kind of searing, visceral moment that almost change people's DNA. And you could feel it in the audience. You could hear it. You could. And so I just remember thinking to myself, oh, I'm playing in a whole other ball game.

Patricia McGregor:

Like, these are artists who know how to control every variable, to drive towards a moment that people will remember for the rest of their lives. And that particular one was harrowing and shocking in the moment that it was used. But to be on the other side and to see the technical precision that was used to create that moment and then hear the audience react in a way that, again, I believe, changed their DNA. And they will remember for the rest of their Lives. I remember that so clearly. And I always say, wow, Deborah and Fiona, you set the bar high. But I, I attempt in every project that I do to consider all of the elements and to try to calibrate or mix the tracks, as the Brewer said, in a way that will allow for that level of virtuosity and impact on the audience.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, number two, if you could give advice to your younger self, starting out, what would that be?

Patricia McGregor:

My advice would be to, to continue to develop. I've now named what I call the compass of your relationships. So I always think like the North Star are the people who you aspire to be the people who you aspire. And I think we spend a lot of time really focused on those people. How do I become this person? And I think those relationships are really important. And the adjustment, I would say, is to be confident, mutually beneficial relationship that you are there to learn from those people, but you also have a lot of ideas to be confident that what you're giving to them is as important as what you're getting from them. And then the peer relationships, the north and south, maybe to assure myself that leaning into showing up for your peers, the east and West, I should say those, those are the people that are going to really be the core of your work. And don't get too worried about looking at the people to the.

Patricia McGregor:

And miss the opportunities to really lean into the people who are the east and west, your peers who you were just coming up with. I'm really encouraging myself and others to really invest in those peer relationships and then to also acknowledge how fulfilling it is to, to lean into what I call the South. There's always somebody who has something to learn from you. You can always show up, you can always be the north for someone else. You can always mentor someone in a certain kind of way. So I would just say, rather than getting too concerned about one of the elements. Am I giving back enough? Am I stretching enough? Am I. If you really spend most of your energy figuring out how you can support your peers and then figure out how to have enough of a balance of where you're trying to stretch with people you're trying to learn from and where you're trying to give to people who you're trying to help come up, that's going to give you a balance that will, in the long game, pay off.

Patricia McGregor:

And I still, while I, while I still have my North Stars and my people to the south that I'm paying attention to, I really think my peers who have come up together, that's also Been one of the most meaningful, not only artistic journeys, but also those are the people who become life friends beyond just the projects that you're doing.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, yeah, because you, you had mentioned before about having these, these life experiences and, and going to different places and having that a part of the, the resources that you can personally bring to any work you're doing. Relationships are an integral part of that. And the, the, the. The types of people we know, the, the, the. The individuals that we meet and keep up with. And, and yeah, those relationships, I mean, that's, that's the core of. Of acting is that reacting and interacting on stage. And so we have to.

Patricia McGregor:

Absolutely. Absolutely. And trust. I guess the only last thing is trust your instincts. I don't know that my instincts have ever been wrong, and sometimes I didn't trust them quickly enough. And just to remind yourself there, you can figure out what your actions are based on those instincts. But I think our instincts are there for a reason. And just to remind yourself to trust your instincts.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, number three, what does success or making it mean to you?

Patricia McGregor:

I would say I think of this whole career, whether it's one project or the whole career, as a baton pass. So to honor all of the investment of the people who've passed things on to me, to honor my mentors, to honor the ancestors, to honor the people who have poured into me, and to use the time that I'm holding the baton as with. To be as deep of service as possible to the artists, to the collaborators, to really, like, run my race well, and then to start, to prepare before the end of the race. Don't leave the race before when your tank is empty and you're just going to crawl to the finish line. To be preparing for who I'm passing the baton on to. Because I often think, especially as a female leader, woman of color in a lot of different metrics, I might be the first or the only in the room. And part of my goal is to make the way and make the case for many, many more people, including people like me, who might not have been in the room before, to make the case for more of them to come. And so that's one way I look at success in terms of the baton passing and to pay attention to every part of that baton.

Patricia McGregor:

And then just in terms of the theatrical. Theatrical project in a more project by project base or season by season base, to allow people to be more present, more connected, more aware, and to believe in linking together and building the future that we want. I do believe that we are in a Transformative art. And that art transforms you one heart, soul, space at a time. And so I think if we've transformed one heart that can connect to another heart to do the soul force work, I think it's going to take to live our most generous and just world. I'm committed to that work.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, number four, what changes would you like to see in the industry going forward?

Patricia McGregor:

I would love the radical changes. I would love some of them are radical right, which are for our industry and for the country really. I would really love universal healthcare to be just a base. I want a baseline of support for people trying to make art. So I would really love to figure out can organizations or. And whether that's theaters like in my dream world, all theaters have housing attached to them or hostel style housing or whatever housing. So we can help take care of some artists basic needs. I think there are some people who are going to lose because they can't take care of their basic needs.

Patricia McGregor:

So how can we have a more basic needs package for artists? How can we also figure out some of the funding which a lot of this is about taxing people who can be taxed because we just know if we kind of change the tax structure in a certain kind of way where tickets can be more accessible. So how do we make sure that more artists can. Can continue to make work? How can we make sure that the work is more financially accessible to more people so that then once the work is made, it's not only people who have a $200 for a ticket that can attend? And then I think more I'm just a very collective person. So like more collective resources. One of the things that I'm heartened by in this time is that while some of it comes out of necessity, organizations are reaching out to help each other more brainstorm. You know, in the pandemic there were whole collectives thinking about masking what policy are you doing? What. In a time where previously, at least in New York, there was often a sense of pride, of rugged individualism, like we are this theater and so we are going to do this thing in this way. And I just hope that we can continue to nourish the ecosystem of each other and the ecosystem of the field.

Patricia McGregor:

Because I think some of the individualism and some of the ego has been productive, but some of it has been unproductive. And I hope we can just hold each other up more.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And lastly, describe a personal lesson that has taken you a while to learn or one that you're still working on to this day.

Patricia McGregor:

I would Say, giving the right Runway for an idea, for a big idea to flourish. So I feel a sense of, and probably driven by time in a certain kind of way. And as a director, that time mark is often, let's say once you know you're going into production, it's six months, you know, in beginning design to opening night, once you go into rehearsal, six weeks. I am kind of driven for transformation and change and sometimes to realize, to focus on step one so you can build something that is stable if what you're trying to do is long term lasting change. So as I have more responsibility and more agency, sometimes I need to slow down and make sure that we get all of the opinions so that we can make the best decision and that we build a thing that's going to be most sustainable and that is challenging because I feel urgent about so many things. Like I feel urgent about healthcare for actors. I feel urgent about making sure that our space is accessible. I feel urgent about some of those things.

Patricia McGregor:

But to know that in order to make the change lasting, in order to bring everyone on board with you so they feel like they're not just being shot out of the cannon by an idea, but they're building the cannon to shoot the idea out together. So sometimes I think it's useful for me to slow down. Sometimes it's useful that I have like a. I will, I will light the flame. Sometimes it's useful that I have that ability to spark and say, I know it's stormy weather, but the goal is to get to the horizon and we've just got to go. But sometimes it's important to say, we might not need to get to the shore today. We might need to, you know, think about a different kind of strategy. So we make sure that when we get to the shore, we can do that and leave no one behind.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. I can certainly say as an actor myself that having that patience and that time, especially in the rehearsal space where you don't feel, you know, I've had rehearsal periods that are 10 days, I've had rehearsal periods that are six weeks. And it's just a different animal putting those different kinds of shows together. And to have the space as an actor, certainly to feel like I can ask the director a question or what if we try this? Or can I? I don't know that I can do. You know, having all those yeses and no's come throughout the process is really helpful.

Patricia McGregor:

Absolutely. And really trust, I mean, that's the. Trust is the biggest commodity in our business. That's actually. And so whatever we can do to help legitimately build that trust and gives people and part of that is trusting that if you need something in a process, that I'm going to be there to help provide that. And yeah, and maybe, maybe the last thing is just to really know that joy is necessary sometimes in the kind of there's a lot, especially in this moment, there's a lot I'm responsible for and feel responsible for. And also not to shy away from a that responsibility, but be part of that responsibility is to make sure that your soul force your joy, spark your. You know that you put on your mask first and you're still going to try and take care of everyone in the airplane, but you've got to put on some of that joy mask first.

Patricia McGregor:

And I know that seems like potentially an easy lesson to learn, but I think if we're thinking about kind of fortitude and change, making sure to hold on to the joy even as you hold on to the responsibility.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, this has been a joy to talk to you, Patricia. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming on today.

Patricia McGregor:

My pleasure. Thank you for the work that you do, not only on the stages, but with this program. It's really invaluable and it is, it's connective tissue in the ecosystem. So I'm really, I'm really grateful for the work that you're doing.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Appreciate that. Thank you.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Thank you so much for joining why I'll Never Make It. And don't forget, you can become a subscriber and get bonus conversations by going to to whyilenevermakeit.com and click subscribe. Or just look for the link in the show notes. Be sure to join me next time as we talk more about why I'll Never Make It.