(This is an auto-generated transcript of this episode's conversation.)

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Welcome, Jen. It is such a pleasure to meet you and so happy to have you on the podcast today.

Jen Rudolph:

I'm so happy to be here.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And you were saying one of your first exposures to the performing arts was as a child growing up, your mother was in advertising and got all these tickets to Broadway Shows. It must have been so much fun to get to see so many shows at a young age.

Jen Rudolph:

Oh, my. Oh, my goodness. I was so spoiled. I mean, I remember. I think my first show was like, My Fair lady or something on Broadway. I was like. I think I was five years old, but, yeah, I really got to see everything oftentimes multiple times. And I just.

Jen Rudolph:

Yeah, I just immediately, like, I fell in love with the theater.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Was there a particular show? I mean, you mentioned My Fair lady, but was there others that really, like, stuck out to you as far as, like, oh, yeah, I want to be a part of this.

Jen Rudolph:

Yeah. Les Miserables, Miss Saigon, Aida. I'm talking about a lot of musicals. But, I mean, as a child, you know, I don't know if it's necessarily appropriate, you know, like, if you're seeing all these, you know, like, really intense straight plays. But, yeah, like, I mean, I would say, like, I was just so terrible taken, you know, by the. Like, just by the sets and the actors and the emotions and all of that. And I was like, wow, this is just incredible.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. Whenever I came to New York for the first time in 91, Les Mis was the first show I saw, and it had a big. A big impact on me. Yeah, I absolutely remember that show. I like to pride myself at that particular night. After he sang, you know, bring Him Home or God on High, I was the first to clap. I was like, yes, yes. I'm so happy to be there.

Jen Rudolph:

Favorite show of all time.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I've gotten to do it twice, so I feel very blessed to have been a part of two productions. Yeah. Such a great show.

Jen Rudolph:

Amazing.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And you were a casting director for 10 years. Did you do both theater and on screen, or were you kind of going back?

Jen Rudolph:

No, I worked a lot in television. We did some series. Television. And then we helped out a lot of people in film on the West Coast. And so we were kind of there, like New York, you know, like, arm and. And whatnot. So, yeah, it was just TV and film.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Did you ever want to get into theater since that was kind of your first intro into the arts?

Jen Rudolph:

No, not really. I mean, like, I didn't really know anything like, beyond that, you know, like. And then just, like. Like, everything just kind of happened, and it just kind of fell in my lap, and I was like, you know, the pacing of television and the pacing of the film, I was just so in love with that, you know.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, it's definitely a different medium, especially for us actors, you know, it's a different Audition. And I think that especially us theater actors, that's something we have to kind of learn over time. The different skill set to audition for on screen versus on stage.

Jen Rudolph:

Yeah, totally.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, let's get into your first story that you wanted to talk about. And this takes us back to 2006, when you were a casting director. And at that time, you started your own business and began teaching audition classes about one or two times a week in an office space that. That you rented out. You were paying extra hours for it as you went along. And this is what became the actors green room now. Yeah, I certainly remember the actors green room. Whenever I first moved to the city, it was one of the first kind of these kind of paid classes that you pay for.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, yeah. That you go in and you. You kind of learn from. And me being new to the city, I needed to learn a lot about what it was to be. Be in New York. And what. What would you say was the. The biggest complaint or need that you heard from actors that you worked with there?

Jen Rudolph:

So, I mean, you know, it was really all about access, you know what I'm saying? Because, I mean, you know, even, like, way back, like, way back when, I mean, everything has always been super saturated, right? I mean, you know, like, there. There are more actors than there are jobs. So, you know, what I was hearing is, you know, like, I want a home base. I want a community, you know, where, like, I can thrive. And, you know, I can have access, you know, to all of these casting directors and all these agents and managers. And, you know what. What had happened was, is that, you know, at the time before I opened that, you know, I was teaching, you know, like, I was like, you know what? Like, I'm really helping people, like, land these very big jobs, and I'm like, I'm obviously doing something right, you know, and so I just kind of, you know, like, I just started teaching, you know, all of these classes, and then I hired my friends, you know, like, who were also casting directors, like, who would teach with me. And then I was like, you know what? Rather than doing this on a small scale and then, you know, like, being hired by other places, why don't I just open up my own, you know, and then, like, I can, you know, just make it, like, super warm and super inviting, and I can, you know, like, provide a sanctuary.

Jen Rudolph:

So that was really where that came from.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's. I think every actor looks for that place that's kind of this safe place to kind of explore, to ask questions, to make mistakes, but then learn from them. And it sounds like that that's what you were trying to give these actors.

Jen Rudolph:

Exactly.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And I'm curious, as you were doing these classes, as you were. As you were teaching, you know, kind of working one on one with actors in these classes, did it change how you cast shows or how you auditioned, that audition process for yourself?

Jen Rudolph:

No, not really. I mean, it was kind of the other way around. Right. Like, it's like I was teaching people, you know, how it actually really worked. Because, you know, like, I'm the one in the room. I'm the one talking to people. I'm the one, you know, who's. Who's just, you know, like, running the show, you know.

Jen Rudolph:

So I was really, you know, like, teaching them, like, hey, guys. You know, like, this is actually what's happening. Like, this is actually what the process is. And, you know, like, I think that's, you know, like, really, really valuable information that you have, because I'm telling you, like, I'm in the trenches. Like, I'm working with these people, you know. I'm telling you, you know, like, this is how you have to do it. This is how you have to show up. So I was, you know, really just kind of teaching them, you know, everything that I was doing on.

Jen Rudolph:

On the regular and.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And were there common themes or. Like, there are these one or two things that you always had to keep going over and over again with actors?

Jen Rudolph:

Yeah. I mean, I would say, like, back in the day, I was like, okay, this is not a workshop. Like, when you go into an audition, it's not a workshop. It has to be, you know, like, you're already there. You know what I mean? Like, you're already there. Because even though, you know, at that time, you know, you were, like, in the room mostly, you know, like, you still, like, you still had to vi for the attention. You know what I mean? Because, you know, it's like if you're in the room and then, you know, and it's not going well and whatnot, you know, like, people are just kind of like, okay, I gotta let this person out of here. Like, you know, so it's like.

Jen Rudolph:

Like, I was always like, you have to treat this as if, you know, like, every second counts. So, you know, like, you're not going in there. Like, I'm just gonna workshop this. No, no, no. You're going in there with a finished performance. Like, set ready, you are ready to go. And then if they have notes, you know, that, like, they want to give you, that's Fine. But, you know, you already have to be at a super high level, otherwise they're going to tune out.

Jen Rudolph:

So I would say that was, like, the number one thing that I was teaching people. I was like, this is not a workshop. Like, you know, this is a workshop. That's not a workshop.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And I'm curious on the larger, you know, kind of a larger question. Do you think some people shouldn't be actors? You know, for whatever reason, their skill, their mindset, their aptitude?

Jen Rudolph:

Oh, goodness, yeah. I mean, I certainly have arrived at this now, you know, like, where I am in 2025. But even back then, right? Like, it's like, one thing I've always taught people is that this is a business. You know, it's like you're an actor, but, you know, because you're engaging in commerce, you know, like, because you are trying to get paid for your art, you are, in essence, a product. You know what I mean? And. And in that realm, you know, the laws of business apply. So what that means is, like, if you're not willing to really embrace this as a business and to, you know, invest in yourself properly, you know, I'm like, you're gonna get really hurt. Like, like, you're gonna take everything personally, and, you know, you are just gonna be, you know, like, on a treadmill of like, well, I have all this training.

Jen Rudolph:

I'm amazing. I'm, you know, like, I should be entitled to all of these opportunities. And I'm like, no, you know, you gotta fight for them. Like, you gotta earn these opportunities. Like, nobody owes you anything just because you went, you know, to Juilliard, nyu, Tish, whatever it is, it's like, you know, if you can't have the business mindset, like, if you cannot adapt that and if you are deeply offended by it, then don't try to make money as an actor. Like. Like. Like, if you just want to do it, you know, for, like, all the fun in the world, like, that's amazing.

Jen Rudolph:

But, you know, if you want to get into, you know, like, I am taking jobs away from other people, you have to compete at a super high level. So I've. I think that people, you know, should not be actors who cannot, you know, embrace that, and they should not try to make, you know, like, they should not attempt to make it as a working actor. You know what I'm saying? Just because there's so much competition and, like, you have to look at it like a business.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. And that business certainly changes throughout the years, and after Covid, it certainly changed as self tapes, for example, became more of a thing and. And you were a casting director kind of before the heyday of self tapes that we have now. And so do you think that they have been a good thing for the industry and for actors specifically?

Jen Rudolph:

I mean, you know, look, I mean, my opinion is always going to be yes, because I'm a business person, right. And you know, in every business, it's always been and it always will be about speed and ease, you know. So, you know, like when Covid happened, I mean, casting directors and their higher ups were able to find a, you know, speedier and cheaper and easier way to get this all done, you know, and to save a lot of money on overhead, etc. So, yes, you know, every business is always going to adapt, you know, like, much like I always say, you know, Netflix is as big as it is because, you know, they like took over Blockbuster, like they like, they demolished Blockbuster, you know, because of the speed and ease. Right. Like, everything is about speed and ease. So, you know, do I think it was good, you know, for the business? Sure. You know, actors, I mean, here's the thing, you know, you have to adapt.

Jen Rudolph:

Like, you have to adapt, you know, I mean, if you can't, you know, auditioning is auditioning, you know what I mean? Like, you have to be able to do it, like, no matter where you are. So, you know, like, there's a lot of people who are like, I felt so much, you know, more comfortable when I was in the room. And I'm like, it's kind of an illusion because again, it's like, you know, yes, you're in the room and yes, you have their attention, but, you know, are they really looking at you? Are they thinking about their grocery list? Like, you don't know what the heck's going on. You know what I mean? So it's like you really have to be able to do it no matter where you are and that, you know, like, in my opinion, it's like a lot of people are like, I just don't want it to be this way. I'm like, well, business in general, no matter if it's this business or any business, it's always going to evolve and it's always going to be about speed and ease. So you have to adapt or you got to get out. That's how I feel.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, and. And coming from the casting director's perspective, I, I think that it makes sense what you're saying. And I am certainly one of those who push against self tapes. I'm not a big Fan of it especially being in theater. Theater is such a visual, visceral, in person medium that, that to put it on screen kind of, it's, it's, it's not what we, it's not the product we deliver on stage. It's not on a screen which is, it's, it's a, it's a very different experience. And so I think those auditions do suffer from the self tape process. But casting, TV shows, films, it makes absolute sense because you need to see what do I look like with just from the neck up, what am I doing, what are my eyes doing, my face doing? All that makes so much sense as a self tape.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

But I would say that self tapes are now costing actors something. Is that something that's just, well, now it's part of the business or do you think that there's a way that, that cannot cost something so that it's not a barrier to auditioning?

Jen Rudolph:

Oh, okay. So this is where I'm really going to get into it. Right? I mean, right.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Get into it.

Jen Rudolph:

I'm very polarizing in this way. But it's like it's the cost of doing business. Like I don't understand now. I don't understand this. I feel like actors are treated like children in a sense that, you know, it's like they're not. Like there's this like stigma. Like, you know, you shouldn't have to do anything. You know, like you invested all of this money like in a degree.

Jen Rudolph:

So you know, like why should you have to run this like a business? Here's the thing. Every business person, right, there's a cost of doing business in every single business. I have enormous costs of doing business. You know, like if you're a personal trainer, you know, like you have a cost of doing business if you're a hair stylist and you know, like it's the same thing. So for me, I'm like, you know, again it's like you got to adapt and you know, you got to learn, you know, how to, you know, monetize your skills so that you can, you know, have all of the capital that you need to pursue this. Because in any business it's going to cost you, you know, whether that's, you know, like in the olden days, in the olden days, you know, like, I mean like, you know, like taking cabs, doing this, buying, get like all of that, you know, it's like there's a cost of doing business if you are wanting to pro, if you are wanting to procure work, you know, There. There are marketing costs or advertising costs. There's just, you know, like, there are costs of just, like, being in business in general.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, yeah. As you say, you start from zero. You start from not having anything, and so you have to invest in that. You have to get the resources and materials around you, and then hopefully you start making money to kind of pay yourself back and so on. And it's a cycle that keeps going.

Jen Rudolph:

Yes, exactly. I don't think that the mission should be, you know, like, how do we make this as cheap as possible? I mean, I think it's more like, you know, how do we teach actors how to monetize their skills so that they can have capital in order to, like, you know, run their businesses like a pro.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And for story number two, you actually, you know, did this yourself. You became a bigger business as you started things like Elevate and AG Air Accelerator, which were the. The first time of bringing interactive, you know, casting director workshops for actors online. Right. You brought it online. And this was, you know, before COVID before everyone knew what Zoom was.

Jen Rudolph:

I got so much flack for that, too. Like, everybody was like, no one's going to want to do this. They all want in person. I said, you know, zoom is really the way of the future, you know, Like, I was a bit like a zealot. I was like, this is going to happen, you know, But.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

But there must have been some growing pains because obviously going from in person to online.

Jen Rudolph:

Yeah, it was a whole thing. I. Yeah, like, I mean, I am pretty good with tech, but I was still like, oh, God, what if this backfire is like, are people going to go for this? You know, like, how do we, like, tell people this is a good idea? But, I mean, it was really, really successful, you know, and lo and behold, not long after, everybody followed suit. Right.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

That everyone was.

Jen Rudolph:

I know.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

What. What was. What was the thing you had to learn about, you know, rather than someone in the room, you know, on. Right there in front of you to. Now they're on the other side of a screen, maybe even on the other side of the world. What was that difference in how you trained them, how you coached them?

Jen Rudolph:

Honestly, I mean, not much. It was more just like a technical thing, you know, like, it was more like, here's where you look, this is what you do. I mean, you know, it was really the same all across the board, you know, just in terms of, you know, like, how people showed up. Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And did you. You know, because a lot of times, at least Us actors, we love to feel that connection. We love to feel that collaboration in the room. But obviously that can be difficult when you're just talking screen to screen. Were you able to, to foster that type of environment as well?

Jen Rudolph:

Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, people really learned how to do it just, you know, because, like, in a sense, it's like, you know, I, like, I kept on saying, I literally was like, you don't believe me? But I'm telling you, this is how it's going to be very soon. Because again, every business is always evolving. It's all about speed and ease. It's all about like, all of that. And like, you're gonna have to figure out how to create an authentic connection on the screen. So, you know, I, like, I think it was trial and error, you know, I think people just figured it out as they did.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. It's interesting, as you said that it's, it's interesting to talk to people who kind of see the future coming. I, I remember whenever I was taking media classes in college, so this was in the, the early to mid-90s. And I remember one of my professors says, you know, there's going to come a day when instead of just turning on a channel, you're turning on a TV show. You get to pick the TV shows you want to watch. And that's, and that's how we're going to watch television. I was like, well, how, how can that, how can you do that? There's going to be a whole channel of, of just, you know, Andy show and that's it. But no, it's, it's, it's, it's interesting people who kind of see where the future is headed.

Jen Rudolph:

Yeah. I mean, look where we are now, right? I said it. I said it. That's all I keep saying. I told you so.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And while you were doing these, you know, venturing into the online zoom class world, you were still doing your physical business. You know, the in person stuff. You were running both at the same time time.

Jen Rudolph:

Was that only for a short while? Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Right, right. Was, was that tough doing both?

Jen Rudolph:

Oh, it was pain, yeah. I mean, it was a lot. It was a lot. I mean, I always make the joke that I was like, I feel like a restaurant owner. I feel like I'm like, you know, like, like coordinating all this stuff. And then I was like, all right, you know, do I, like, I'm kind of over the brick and mortar. Like, I just felt like really caged in. It was, you know, listen, it was a wonderful business, you Know, I was.

Jen Rudolph:

I was incredibly happy for it. And then, you know, when I was doing all of these online workshops, I was like, you know what? This is great. I'm glad I was the trailblazer in this space for this, but I don't know that this is my calling either, because I feel like, you know, I can run a lot of things, and that's all fine and good, but I was like, I think I'm gonna, like, hand off the baton with this. I'm gonna let other people kind of follow suit, you know, And I don't know that I wanted to, like, you know, like, run like, an online workshop business either, so. Yes, but it was very. It was very intense when I was doing them both.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And at what point in this journey, you know, whenever you started doing the actors green room and then you're going into online, at what point did you start to build a team? Because obviously it was just kind of you to begin with. And then you.

Jen Rudolph:

It was me for a very long time. Yeah. So I think what ended up happening is, you know, for the first gosh, like, couple years or so, that I was running brick and mortar, like, I was the operations manager, I was the assistant. I was the accountant. I was, like, doing everything because, you know, ultimately, you know, it's like I was like, I was literally doing, like, the bare minimum. I was, like, renting space after hours, and I was just, you know, like, I was building things up. But I think, you know, as I started, you know, making more money and as I started, you know, just having so much volume, you know, I then hired one person. I was like, okay, I need an ops manager.

Jen Rudolph:

And then after that, it became, okay, you know what? Now I need to maybe employ people to be readers and, like, run the cameras. And then I did that and that, you know, I'd say that only happened maybe, like, two or three years in, like, I was, like, doing, like. So I was doing almost everything. And then I was like, all right, it's time to take on a team. Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. And then. And I assume that that made it a lot easier for you to then focus on what you wanted to do.

Jen Rudolph:

Yeah, well, at that point, you know, I was like, oh, gosh. I was like, what do I want to do? Right? Because it's like I was still teaching, you know, like, my own stuff as well. Like, you know, here I had this business where, like, I had, you know, like, other casting directors coming in, agents manage, etc, and then I was also teaching, and I was like, you know what? I'm really helping people, like book a lot of stuff, you know. And I was like, I think my calling here is to be some kind of mentor strategist above and beyond, like running this like brick and mortar. And I don't quite think I could do it within a brick and mortar because it's too confining. Like I want to work with people in la, I want to work people in Europe, I want to work people in Canada. I was like, how am I going to do that? Like, I have so much impact, you know, which I could create, but I can't do it, you know, within the confines of a brick and mortar.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Now I'm curious, as you were doing these, you know, even LA to New York, it's, it's a little different, even though there are some similarities. But when it comes to Europe or even Canada or these different places, is the process of auditioning, of being on camera, are there differences that you have to account for?

Jen Rudolph:

I mean, I didn't really experience anything too different. Like, I mean, at least in like the LA market, I mean, like I worked a lot like in that market as well and it was pretty much like the same.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And, and as far as actors from other countries, you didn't hear that their process or way of doing things was a little different?

Jen Rudolph:

I mean, I mean, trying to remember, like, I mean I was looking at self tapes from, from actors from other countries, but like I wasn't too tuned in, like on, like, on like the process over there.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I mean, because I, I guess as far as the audition process, it may be different or how casting is run, but once you're on camera, doing a scene is doing a scene. No, no matter the language, no matter where you are. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And these businesses, whether, whether it was the, the physical brick and mortar or this new online business that you were getting into, they, they became very successful not only in helping artists and creatives, but financially for yourself. Was that.

Jen Rudolph:

Yes.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Was that anticipated? Was that a surprise that it became so financially viable as well?

Jen Rudolph:

I mean, I didn't expect it. I mean, like, I had no idea what I was getting into on a certain level. I was like, okay, is there a glass ceiling for this? Like, what is the deal? Like, I don't know, like, you know, I mean, I mean, I'll say this right, like the business brought in a lot. The profit margin though, however, was not that amazing because the overhead, the overhead, like to have a big office on like 28th street at the time was ginormous. You Know that. And also you. I had salaries to pay. I had payroll.

Jen Rudolph:

I was paying, you know, all these casting directors and agents and managers. So, you know, although I had a very lucrative business on one hand, you know, you know, at the end of the day, I was like, there's a little bit of a glass ceiling here because, you know, like, everybody, every. You know, it's like, I got to give people raises. You know, all of these industry people, like, a lot of them are charging a fortune, but, you know, totally in there, right? You know, but I was like, it was lucrative, but then at the same time, I was like, I don't know how much I can grow here unless I start to open up, like, various, like, places. Now, I did have a brick and mortar in Los Angeles for a very short amount of time. That being said, I. Yeah, I didn't want to pursue it. I was like, this is more of the same.

Jen Rudolph:

I was like, it seemed really fun, but then I was like, it's too much to manage, and I don't. And again, like, at the end of the day, I don't know that it's really worth my time. It. To do. Do it. So.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, yeah. To franchise something in physical spaces can.

Jen Rudolph:

No, no, no.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Very difficult.

Jen Rudolph:

Yeah, yeah. I was like, it was a great idea in theory, but I was like, I'm just gonna. I'm just gonna pull the plug on it. Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And this term of pay to play, of basically, you know, paying, paying casting directors or agents to see you, to work with you, it can have a bad connotation to some people, but as you say, it's certainly a part of the business. What are your thoughts about just the phrase itself, but then that idea of having to pay. Yeah.

Jen Rudolph:

I mean, here's the thing, right? And again, I'm going to be controversial here and in every business, like, every business, right. It's like you want to get in front of people who are decision makers. You pay to go to a convention. You know what I mean? It's like, you pay to get your stuff in front of people. I mean, that's just the way it is. Because ultimately, casting directors and, you know, like, I used to say this back in the day, it's not their job to take their social time and, you know, like, donate it, you know, to aspiring actors who want to meet them, Right? Like, they have lives, they have wives, they have husbands, they have kids. They have things that they want to do. So after hours, you know, they should get paid for their time, because again, their job, you know, unless they're doing, you know, like massively, you know, like, like overtime, minimum wage, like at that point, which is not it, you know, their job was, you know, like nine to five.

Jen Rudolph:

I mean, obviously, you know, like, they work later than that. But, you know, like their job was just to work on what it is that they were hired to work on. You know what I mean? Like, ultimately their job was not to go out and discover new talent. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, if they happen to see a show that had, you know, a lot of press behind it, they're like, oh my God, I love this person. I want to bring them in. Cool, great. But, you know, it's like, who's paying them, you know, for their social time? So, you know, it's like I always believed and I was like, you can call it pay to play, like, whatever it is, but, you know, like, if I want to get my product in front of, you know, like somebody who I want to invest in it, I'm most likely I'm going to have to pay money to go to something where they are at. Like, yeah, damn.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, it is, it's, it's taking what it is, it's taking that, that arts and crafts approach to, to, to the creative process, but, but making it a more practical business that like you said.

Jen Rudolph:

I mean, I always used to say, you know, you only want to get in front of people who are working on what you're right for right now. Otherwise they're, you know, otherwise I don't know how much it's really going to be useful to you. So it is a strategic investment to get in front of people, you know, So I think there was always, you know, just like a bit of a confusion about, you know, like, what is a casting director's job? Like, is it their job to, you know, go after hours, like, you know, from that, like 8 o' clock at night and watch actors, you know, for like, I don't know, three hours at a clip who, like, they have no investment in. Like, are they supposed to just, you know, like, donate their time? No, like, they should get paid for their expertise, you know, because you're always going to learn something in these workshops, you know, and they should get paid too, be available off the clock. So I was like, I'm happy to pay them. I mean, you know, and they, they definitely, you know, we're asking a lot of money because they're gatekeepers and I get that. And that's how business works. And I was like, cool.

Jen Rudolph:

You know, I was happy to meet, you know, however much they were asking to get paid, if, you know, if I felt like, you know, there was major opportunity there for my people. So it's a business.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Sure. And was it them setting those rates or you as the business owner? Did you set the rates for those coming in?

Jen Rudolph:

It was them.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Okay.

Jen Rudolph:

It was them. Yeah. It was them. Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So getting into story number three, this was also in 2019. A lot's happening at this time as you're. As you're transitioning. You know, you. As you said you had been doing well with your. With your office in New York, but you decided to. It was the time to fully leap into the online space and close the brick and mortar. Right.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And you decided to name this process that you've been kind of thinking and teaching, and this is what became the 2% signature system. What, why and how did you come up with this particular name?

Jen Rudolph:

Oh, I love this story. So, okay, so for a long time, like, I was like, okay, I'm doing something. I'm doing something, and I'm helping people. Like, I'm helping them book now. You know, I did my research. I'm like, how many people actually get called in and how many book? And I came up with, you know, like, roughly 2%, you know, like, seems to be like, you know, the number. So what I did is, you know, because I always preach trial and error is not a business plan. It is a terrible idea because, you know, trial means, you know, you have no strategy.

Jen Rudolph:

Error means, you know, wasted time, et cetera. And then if you hit something, like, if you're like, oh, my God, I did it, it's an accident. You know what I mean? So I never did trial and error as a business plan. When I decided I was going to go into the online space, I did my research and I was like, I need to find. I need to find the best business coach out there who runs a successful business, you know, and who can really help me make this leap flawlessly. Because this could have backfired on me. You know what I mean? Like, yes, I had, like, a large following, but I was like, you know, to go from a brick and mortar into the online space, it's like there's a whole thing that has to happen there, right? Because my messaging over here was not going to be my messaging over here. So I hired a business coach and I paid 100 grand for a year.

Jen Rudolph:

And, you know, we sat together in his living room in San Diego, and he helped me, you know, like, flesh out, you know, like, what I actually did and, you know, like, what the process was. And. And then he was like, well, let's name it. And I was like, well, it's something about, you know, the 2%. And then I was like, oh, my God, wait. I teach a system of how to become part of the 2%. And, like, that's how that happened. Like.

Jen Rudolph:

Like it was almost by accident, you know, like, and then I just was like, okay, you know what? I'm the person who teaches you how to fly off the shelf. I'm the person who teaches you business, marketing, positioning. All of that is actually what moves the needle. You know, training is your baseline. Like, everyone, like, you have to be talented, but talent is not what actually is the differentiator. Like, that's not what it is. It's your positioning. It's how you sell the product that you have.

Jen Rudolph:

You know what I'm saying? So I really taught people, you know, how to become part of the 2%. And I still do that, obviously, but it really has to do, you know, with positioning, because you can have the best product in the world. Like, I mean, you can be the most talented human being on the planet, but if nobody knows about you, and if nobody is, you know, like, viewing you, then what good? Like, what does that mean? It means that you're in a vacuum. You know what I'm saying? So I just really taught people how to take their training and their craft and their artistry and parlay it into a business and to get paid.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, I remember I sat down in one of these pay to plays where I was talking with the casting director and any actors. He asked me a very pointed question about what. What do you want? What do you wish, you know, was. Was happening for you, for your career? And I remember telling him, I. I know that I have talent. I just wish other people trusted that or saw it so that I could get cast more. And it was a. It was a realization to myself.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

But also it was. It was something that I hadn't really verbalized in a way before. And I think a lot of actors have to come to that place of realizing, okay, I may have this confidence I skill set, but it needs to be out there. It needs to be seen. And how. How it gets seen is a whole other skill set.

Jen Rudolph:

That's the thing. And, you know, it's like, there's a huge gap in our. In. In our industry. You know, it's like people think, well, I went to NYU Tisch, and I spent, you know, like 400 grand all in on a degree Or I went to Juilliard, or I went to Yale, or I went to, you know, like, Carnegie Mellon. Okay, yeah, that's fine. That's great. I'm glad that you have amazing training.

Jen Rudolph:

They don't teach you how to actually get hired. Because here's the thing, right? Like, you might. You might. You know, you might have a leg up, obviously, you know, like, as you're coming out of school, it's like, you know, you will probably get an agent right away. Amazing. But if you don't book, you know, within maybe a year or so, you will probably get dropped, and then you are in the pool with everyone else. So I'm like, you know, people are like, well, I spent all this money on school. And I'm like, I know.

Jen Rudolph:

I'm sorry that you did that. Because they actually didn't teach you how to get hired. Because in every single business, you know, like, if you don't know how to sell yourself or your product, no one's buying it.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Do you think that schools, colleges, conservatory programs, do you think they're failing actors in this way?

Jen Rudolph:

Yeah, well, I think that they. I wouldn't say failing. Like, I would just say that, you know, it is not the complete ball of wax. You know what I mean? It's like they're teaching you product, you know, like, they're teaching you how to, you know, like, build a plane, but nobody's teaching you how to fly it. Like. Like. Like you have this plane, then you're like, somebody, somebody, like, buy a ticket. It's like, you know, but they're not actually, like, you know, like.

Jen Rudolph:

Like teaching you how to advertise your airline or like, anything like that, you know, and then what happens is I get a lot of people, you know, who go to these schools. Then they come to me and they're like, help?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. I spoke with a guy who does, you know, business for actors. He does a class for actors like that, and he said that the very first thing, very first class, he says, get yourself an ira. Like, like, not, you know. You know, it's not an acting thing. It's not a skill set, not a talent. It's like, it is. You have to treat it like a business.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

You have to set yourself up financially for the future.

Jen Rudolph:

I know. I tell people that all the time. I'm like, you know, you have to become very smart about your money because, again, you know, you're an artist. But, you know, I always say to people, you got to figure out how to monetize your skills outside of art. So that you can have capital. Yes. And get an IRA and make smart investments.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

If you could pare down this, this 2% system to maybe one idea or one perspective, what would you say is the main goal that you try to impart to those?

Jen Rudolph:

Well, I think it's what I said before, which is talent is the baseline, positioning is what gets you hired, and.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

It'S about, it's about what that position means for you.

Jen Rudolph:

Marketing media. Yeah, marketing media. All of that stuff. Like everything that's like your virtual storefront, like, all of that, you know, like the way in which you present yourself, like in terms of, you know, like your headshots, your media footage, all of that, that is what people are using as decision making tools. Like those are the biggest. Because again, you know what, you know, it's like if you get an audition, what are they calling you in based off of your materials after you do the audition? Oftentimes what you'll hear is, you know, I want to see your reel again. Why? Because they're looking for the evidence that they need to hire you. You know, your job is to build trust, remove friction and give the evidence.

Jen Rudolph:

And that is going to come in the form, you know, of your marketing and media. Your audition is but a piece of the puzzle.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And these pieces, you know, the headshot, the reel, the, the online presence website, whatever it may be, the. These are similar across the way, but how we use them is, is really the key because for every actor they're going to need to use those in different ways. Would you say?

Jen Rudolph:

Yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah, like, but like, you know, the baseline is, you know, it's like actors access, INTB Pro, you know, all of that. Yeah, but, yeah, I would say so.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And I, I read an interview that you did with Deadline last year where you talked about your program. Right, right. You talked about your program and, and the cost of your program, which in that article ranged anywhere from 5, 500 to 10,000 depending on the, on the, the services that you offer.

Jen Rudolph:

Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

How, how did you come up with this particular price point?

Jen Rudolph:

I mean, I felt like it was fair. I mean, the amount of work that goes into it. I mean, you know, like, if you think about it, right, like NYU is charging you, like, how much for the year? I want to say it's like 82 grand for like one year at NYU. And you know, like, that includes, you know, like all the tuition and that, you know, and the housing and like all that stuff, you know, and for me, you know, I wanted to, you know, make it so that it's a premium program, number one. But if you actually break down, like, if you break down like the hours, like number one, right. Like, I mean, it's like 80 hours a month, like 80 with me and my entire team working with you, hands on, on every single piece of the puzzle. You know, if you do our 90 day optimizer, that is 5500 and then our six month program is 10,000. You know, the cost of these programs, which is actually like, you know, the needle mover is 2%.

Jen Rudolph:

Ha ha ha. Of, you know, like what these big schools are charging you. And it's actually the thing that moves the needle. So, you know, one thing I've been able to track like over the past like six years is that 85% of our clients, you know, book within six months or get signed within six months and, and then those bookings compound. So what we're doing is we're actually saving you, you know, years of trial and error. You know, you're investing in the strategy and the assets that you need to set yourself up to actually earn. You know. So yes, you know, like, I made it premium, but I also was like, you know what? I'm like, in my world, like, I would make this a no brainer.

Jen Rudolph:

Like, I mean, these big schools are charging you, you know, like, oh my God, like astronomical amounts. And like there's no roi. Like, there's no roi, you know, so for me it's like, you know, I've. Yeah, I found it very interesting. That article was like, you know, Jen is expensive. And I'm like, compared to what? What is expensive? Like, what is expensive? If, you know, this is actually the thing that has been proven to set you up to earn, like, what is expensive? Like, what are you comparing it to? Because there's nothing like it. So for me, I was always like, I, you know, I always find that very interesting. Like when anyone's like, it's expensive, I'm like, okay, fine, in your world it might seem expensive, but what you get and the outcome that it generates, it's like, it's actually very cheap.

Jen Rudolph:

I mean, you know, anybody who's, who's inside of my programs, like, you know, I mean, I have people who are millionaires in there. You know, I have, I have people who, you know, are married to very rich people. I have people who are, you know, very like, well off because of their parents. I have people, you know, who are, you know, smart with their money. I mean, like, I have people all over the place. But I mean, it's just like, to them, it's not expensive.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Right.

Jen Rudolph:

You know what I mean? Like, it's all mindset. I mean, I invested, you know, like, 100 grand, you know, like, with a business coach, like, right out of brick and mortar. People are like, oh, my God, I'm gonna, like, throw up. That's the most expensive thing. And for me, I was like, I'm gonna, like, 10x this investment and like, six months, like, it's really not. You know what I mean? So for me, and then, you know, like, over the years, like, I mean, I probably invested, like, half a million dollars at, like, at this point and like, in coaching and strategy. So, you know, but I'm.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

But I'm curious. Like, that hundred thousand dollars you spent on a business coach, that's something you did after years of working toward a certain goal. It's. Would you say that that's something that you either couldn't or wouldn't have done from. From day one, you had to build up a certain career of your own?

Jen Rudolph:

I did. I mean, you know, I will say this. I had a mentor when I went into brick and mortar, who I was paying hourly, you know, to kind of advise me on, like, how to run a business. You know what I'm saying? You know, so when I made that leap, obviously, you know, I had, you know, like, I had a bank account. Like, I. I had the funds. I mean, listen, you know, like, 100 grand, you know, I mean, you know, like, I definitely winced at it a little bit. I was like, oh, yikes.

Jen Rudolph:

Like, that. That's a lot like, okay. You know, like, at first I was like, what the heck? You know, but for me, you know, like, when I think about actors, I'm like, well, okay, you guys are investing, like, hundreds of thousands of dollars into these schools, you know, and to actually get your marketing, media, and strategy dialed in, which is actually the thing that moves the needle. It's going to cost you 2% of what you're actually paying for training. It's like. It's nuts. So for me, it's like, I think I. I think I'm underpriced.

Jen Rudolph:

Like, I've been told. I've been told, you know, that I should raise my prices exponentially. I'm keeping them where they are right now.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And you mentioned that. That 85 of those who take from you do go on and. And they book these things and they. And they start to really further their career.

Jen Rudolph:

Yes.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

What. What do you say to the 15% who may not, at least in their own Eyes may not see that return on investment.

Jen Rudolph:

I mean, here's the thing. In. In every business, right? I mean, there's people who go to the gym, you know, who work out consistently and they don't lose weight, you know, like, what are they doing? Like. Like, are they sitting on the couch eating bon bons? Like, do they have a thyroid problem? Like, what's going on, you know, like, behind the scenes? Because here's the thing, right? It's like, we know how to do it in terms of strategy. Like, we'll give you everything, you know, that you need in order to take this and implement. But, you know, like. Like, if I was your personal trainer, like, I can take you to the gym. I can, you know, like, I can sit with you, I can do all this, but I can't make you lift the weights.

Jen Rudolph:

Like, I can't do it for you. I can tell you exactly what you need to do in order to get what you want to get. So, you know, to the 15 of people, you know, like, I'm like, well, how did you show up? You know, like, what did you bring into the room? You know, like, did you fall off the map? Did you really pursue this? You know, like, what happened to your mindset? What happened to your energy? You know, like, did you have, you know, like one bad audition and then, you know, like, you went into a hole for a year because you were so depressed about it, you know, like, did you actually take this and utilize it? You know what I'm saying? So what I do find is, you know, the 15. I mean, what can I say? I mean, like, nobody ever can help anyone, you know, like 150. I mean, I don't know any business that can do that. You know, it just happens to be that 85 of our, you know, our clients, like, go on to book, you know, the 15. I do think a lot of it is mindset. I do think a lot of it is, you know, like, how they show up.

Jen Rudolph:

You know, I'm curious about, you know, what's going on in their private life. I mean, like, I'm. I'm curious, like. Like, I don't know.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Would you say, though, that it should be 100% or possibly, maybe your system just isn't for everyone.

Jen Rudolph:

Or maybe I don't think any system. I mean, I don't think anything is for everyone. I mean, like, I mean, there are people who take Ozempic, right? And like, you know, there's that very small percentage that's like, I shot myself with this drug once a week and I didn' lose weight, what the hell, you know what I'm saying? So it's like there's always going to be people who it doesn't work for, you know, like in any single business, like in any single business. I mean, the metrics that we have, I mean, I think are pretty remarkable, you know, in terms of what's out there. I mean there's only so much that we can do. It's like we can give you the winning formula, we can help you in a very customized way. But if you don't go forth, you know, and like show up as you need to show up and do what you need to do, it might not work. Like.

Jen Rudolph:

Yeah, yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And certainly you, you know, I, I sense the passion from you. You know, you're wanting to help actors and you're really wanting to get them, you know, hit the ground running and, and with that desire to help but then also run your own business, how, how do you balance the two of wanting to help more people but realizing you might be only able to a few with your program?

Jen Rudolph:

Well, I mean, I mean I'm working on, you know, like really scaling things, you know, like in a certain way that you know, like I can like get my message out there to everyone around the world, you know, I mean, if you want to work hands on with me and my team, obviously it's going to be a higher price point because there's one on one attention. But you know, the principles that I teach, you know, and whatnot, I mean, it's like, you know, you can apply them like you can diy.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. Yeah. Because that's how I found you. Yeah, that's how I found you on Instagram. I mean you're, you're putting your, your beliefs and, and your, and the skill.

Jen Rudolph:

Set, you're putting that on, giving it all away. Like I'm, I'm giving the strategies away, you know, I mean like, you want help with them, great. Come work with us. But like you want a diy, you can do it too. Like, I mean like I'm teaching people, like these are the things that actually work, you know, these, you know, like this is what people are responding to. Here are the screenshots. This is what the casting directors are saying. Like this is it like hard evidence, you know, like I, like, like I'm always like, like I'm all about the hard evidence.

Jen Rudolph:

So.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, and, and the thing is like, it's interesting with this name 2% that when it comes down to the business of acting, it really is A game of percentages. The, the, the actor who books 1% of their auditions versus the actor who books 5% of their auditions is in a world of both creative and financial places that they're worlds apart for just that few percentages.

Jen Rudolph:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm not sure what to say to that, but other than yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's, you know, booking just one extra job or two extra jobs a year can mean the difference between paying your rent and being comfortable versus needing to have a second day job.

Jen Rudolph:

Well, yeah, I mean, I always tell people, like, you should definitely have another job. Like, I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm a big advocate for that. You know, I mean, I, I mean, like, I have a multi millionaire, like, real estate guy, like, who's also an actor, like, who's in my program right now. He's amazing. I mean, you know, it's like I have people who are very wealthy inside of my program who are also actors and actresses. I mean, you know, I have, they're, they're all over.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And. Yeah. Which goes to show that just because there's success in one part of your life doesn't mean that other areas don't.

Jen Rudolph:

Don'T need help 100%. Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. How do you best. When someone comes into your program, how best do you. Do you set them up from day one? Set them up for the success that you, that you hope that they will achieve in the three to six months?

Jen Rudolph:

Yeah. I mean, what we do is, you know, like, I will look at you and I will say, here are the entry points, you know, like, in terms of, like, here are the lowest hanging fruits in terms of, you know, like, what it is. I feel that you're realistically going to book right now. I base that on intuition. I base that on what's already working, you know, like inside of your stuff. Like, I look at everything, I look at what's happening in the marketplace, and it kind of all goes into a blender. And I'm like, you know, like, this is what we need to focus on. And then, you know, we, like, roadmap out, you know, like, do you need new headshots? Most likely you probably do.

Jen Rudolph:

You know, we help you with the prep, we help you with all of that. We help you with the execution. I choose the headshots. And then I look at your media now, you know, almost everybody needs new media, you know, and then it's like, like, at that point, I'm like, I'm like, okay, I'm going to come up with scene concepts that are based on these entry points, you know, that like that like I've just sorted out and I'm also going to maybe amplify what's already inside of the media that's already working and then whatnot. And then, you know, like we help with that, like we have prep, execution, editing, all of that stuff. And then, you know, by the end of 90 days, you know, like, like of working with us, like you have an optimized package, like everything is amazing, like everything, all the marketing, the media, everything's done. And then if you work with us, you know, for six months, like you have this beautiful plane that we've just helped you build, then we help you fly the planes. No, so like at that point it's like, okay, now we're actually going to take this out, we're going to fly it, we're going to do outreach, we're going to do all the things, etc.

Jen Rudolph:

And it's going to be amazing.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Is it, is your goal that after either the three to six month program that really they can go off and.

Jen Rudolph:

Yes.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And they don't need you anymore?

Jen Rudolph:

No. Yes. No, absolutely. I mean, you know, I want you to go off and like do the thing. I mean what will happen is, you know, like I'll have people, you know, like after the six months, you know, like maybe like a year out there, they're like, oh my God, I'm doing so great. I want to now do some more upgrades because now I'm, you know, I'm at this level because every level is a new devil. So you know, I, I have a lot of clients, you know, like, who are returning, you know, after long periods of time because they come back and they're like, I want to get new headshots, I want to do this. Or I like how this is working over here, but I want to make changes over here.

Jen Rudolph:

So, you know. But yeah, like, I mean, the goal is after six months, like fly free.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, for those listening who may be considering your program or a program like it, what questions, what things do they need to be asking themselves or preparing themselves for to know if it's the right decision?

Jen Rudolph:

Are you getting called in and are you booking? If not, it is most likely not a talent problem. It is a positioning problem. You know, I always say this. The market is always right. The market will always tell you what you need to know. If you feel stuck or invisible, reach out and you know, like we can tell you, like, is it that, you know, like you need more training because, look, I have a lot of people, like, who reach out to me and they're like, I'm ready to do your six month program. And I'll be like, you don't have enough training. Like, I don't like what I'm seeing here.

Jen Rudolph:

Like, I could help you with your marketing and your media and all that, but the product itself is not strong enough. So I would say, you know, go train, come back to me in a year and then we'll talk about it. But you know, if you have like, like, you know, if you have some major training and whatnot, you know, chances are, like, chances are it's probably, you know, you have a positioning problem. Probably. So I would say if you're, you know, if you're trained but you feel stuck and invisible, I would say that's a good time to kind of do, you know, like an inquiry.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah.

Jen Rudolph:

Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

This has been such a great conversation about your business. But now I want to go back to your casting director days and you have a story for us from when you were casting director of the TV show Young Americans.

Jen Rudolph:

Yes.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And you called in this unknown actress for a series regular. So tell us about why you called her in, what you saw in her and how it went.

Jen Rudolph:

I love this story. Okay, so, you know, back in the day, we would get a slew of manila envelopes, like, delivered to us, and I would be like, oh my God, I gotta go open all of these with like a letter opener. And like, I would literally have a stack, a stack. So I, you know, one day after, like, probably about like 6 o' clock at night, like, I was going through everything and, you know, I came across this girl and I was like, huh, she's got a really cute look. Like, she looks very natural. You know, she looks very kind of like, you know, like there was something about her that I really liked. Her headshot was black and white. And then I flipped it over and I'm like, okay, she has like nothing on her resume.

Jen Rudolph:

Like, she's a model who lives in like, like, I think it was Philadelphia. Don't quote me on that. But like, it was like, you know, I was like, okay, she's like, nothing on her resume. Like, I think maybe she had like a national commercial, like, that's it. So, you know, I was like, I like her though. I, I don't know, there's something about this. Like, I, I like her look, I'm, I'm taking a stand. So like, I called her in, you know, and she came in and, you know, she blew us away, you know, and it was for a series regular.

Jen Rudolph:

And I was like, okay, this girl has, like, no credits, but, you know, there's something about her that I really like. So, you know, I got my producers on the phone and I was like, listen, I'm going to send you a tape. Don't discount this girl because she doesn't have, you know, like, anything on the resume. She's really good. Like, she's really natural. Blah, blah, blah, blah. And, you know, they were like, okay. They watched her tape and they were like, we love her.

Jen Rudolph:

And this was Michelle Monahan. And I just remember, you know, I. I was like, yeah, so, you know, I fought for her. I was like. I was like, she's the one to beat. You know, I think she really has something. And. Yeah, look at her now.

Jen Rudolph:

So she booked it and. Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And. And it almost goes to show what you're talking about, this system of the headshot, A simple.

Jen Rudolph:

Yeah, the headshot was captivating. I mean, you know, and. And again, I must have had, like, a thousand pictures in front of me. Like, I just remember this huge stack. And I was like, oh, my God, I gotta go through all them. But, yeah, like, I just remember that. And I was like, okay, like, there was something here, you know, and, like. Like, it wasn't even, like, a glamour shot.

Jen Rudolph:

Like, I. Like, I remembered it was a black and white, and she just very innocent and very, like, interesting. Like, I was like, I want to, like, know this person. I want to, like, talk. Like, yeah, like, there's something here. And. And again, it was the headshot that then led me to call her in and, like, advocate for her.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And. And. But. But also that the tape backed up. What you saw in the headshot.

Jen Rudolph:

The tape backed up. Yeah, all of that, for sure. But, you know, even more so, like, who she was. Like, when she walked in and, like, I met her, I was like, she's so sweet. I was like, she's so, like, unaffected. She was like, you know, she was new Hollywood. This is great, though. It was awesome.

Jen Rudolph:

I was like. She was like a. You know, they were looking for someone who was like, girl next door. Like, natural beauty. I remember on the breakdown, I said, natural beauty. And I'm like, that's her. Like, she's great. She's perfect.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And then she went on to become.

Jen Rudolph:

I mean.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's from these little beginnings that, you know, a full career blossoms.

Jen Rudolph:

Oh, my God. So long ago. Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, welcome back. It is always so inspiring to hear the stories and experiences of artists like Jen Rudolph. And in our last episode, we really got into the risks that she has been taking as a casting director and then moving into acting and audition coaching and then starting her own businesses. But there is so much more to uncover. And in these final five questions, we're going to take a closer look at pivotal moments from Jen's life, along with personal reflections and ideas for the future that have made her journey so unique. So, Jen, let us get started with question number one. What do you remember most about your first professional show?

Jen Rudolph:

Performing in a show, Seeing a show. My gosh. I mean, I used to act when I was young.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Do you miss it?

Jen Rudolph:

I. You know, I mean, no, no, no.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Seeing what. Seeing what us actors have to go through. Yeah. Maybe you don't miss it so much.

Jen Rudolph:

Yeah, I mean, like, I. Gosh, what was it? You know, I remember being in, like, a musical, like, in my. In my school, and, like, I just love performing, and I love, like, you know, like, all the lights coming on and, like, putting on the makeup and getting the applause and people being like, you did such a great job. Like, I mean, yeah, I. I loved it. It was really fun, you know, and then I acted up until I went to college. You know, like, I was in all the. I was in all the plays in school.

Jen Rudolph:

I was part of a youth group outside of my school, and we did, like, a bunch of plays off Broadway. And then we went to England and we did some of the plays. It was super fun.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, I bet. But, but. But somewhere around college that. That you started to shift your focus elsewhere.

Jen Rudolph:

Yeah. In college, I was like, oh, I have to take a class on directing. So, like, I got into directing and I had to do a whole thing where I had to cast a scene, and then I had to, like, you know, like, direct the actors and do all this. And I was like, oh, this is. You know what? There's something to this. Like, I like directing. Like, I like casting. I like doing all this stuff.

Jen Rudolph:

Yeah. And then I was like, you know what? I have a head for business. I want to do this. I was like, I don't want to act anymore. I want to do this.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, number two, if you could give advice to that younger self starting out, what would it be?

Jen Rudolph:

Don't be Afraid to take risks sooner rather than later when you have an instinct. Yeah, don't wait, you know? I mean, time is something we can never get back. Money, we can always get back. We can't get back time, you know, And I, I. I feel like I wish I had taken, you know, just a few risks, you know, just, like, a little bit sooner. Because, like, I had the inkling, you know, like, I had the intuitive hit, and then I was like, that was too scary. Like, I don't know if I want to do it. I don't know, but I'm like, take risks and don't wait.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

How. How do you overcome that, that scared voice that's tentative, that's like, I'm not sure. I don't know.

Jen Rudolph:

Because I trust in myself, and I trust that I know how to implement, and I trust in the abilities that I have to surround myself with other people and with help, should I need it. Like, I know how to make sure that I. That I succeed, like, if that makes sense. Like, I have all the tools inside of me, and then anything that I'm missing, I'll outsource and I'll hire people. So, like, I will always be set up for success, no matter what.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, yeah, because in, in our conversation, we talked a lot about the business side of it, and, you know, you being one of those people who comes along to help someone build a, you know, a business, but on the artistic side, it's the same exact thing. It's a collaborative process. There's the director, there's the choreographer, there's fellow actors. There's. It's a collaborative process to, you know, you're not just doing your role all by yourself. You're doing it with other people and creating a show with. With a whole team of people. So it's, It's.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Whether artistically or financially, business wise, it's still a team effort to. To build both sides of your career.

Jen Rudolph:

Yeah, absolutely.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. Number three, what does success, or making it mean to you?

Jen Rudolph:

Ooh, feeling fulfilled, executing the ideas that I have, and being able to live a life that I never have to take a vacation from.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

That's. That's a good way to do it. Some people. Some people say I want to be able to take all the vacations I want, but if you're doing the life that you want, then that can be its own vacation. Yeah.

Jen Rudolph:

Yeah, exactly.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

What, what do you do to relax or, or do you ever find yourself wanting to kind of get away, take a break?

Jen Rudolph:

Gosh, I'm turning into, like, Alex Hormozi a little bit, who's like one of my. One of my gurus. Yeah, Yeah. I mean, I do love to work. Like, I. I love to work. I actually find it relaxing to work. But, you know, I love the spa.

Jen Rudolph:

I love going to shows with my amazing girlfriend. I love vacationing, I love Miami. I love, you know, all that. I do a lot of self development stuff, you know, Like, I actually find that very, very rewarding and whatnot. I love to play poker.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Oh, there you go. Are, are, are you good? You make money from that?

Jen Rudolph:

I'm pretty good, yeah. I love to sit in front of the TV and watch the Kardashians. I've, like, recently got into this because they are a masterclass in positioning and branding, and it's just like. It's like endless hours of entertainment. But, yeah, I've been doing that lately. I've just been watching the Kardashians.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

But is it. But is it also kind of a guilty pleasure of just kind of watching sometimes the mess that they.

Jen Rudolph:

Oh, my God. But, like, but no, but, like, I mean, look at, like, all of the lessons there, right? Like, it's like they have mastered the art of attention, you know what I mean? And I.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Good or bad? Yes, they have done it.

Jen Rudolph:

Like, I just lose myself, you know?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I hear you. Yeah.

Jen Rudolph:

Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, number four, what changes would you like to see in the industry going forward?

Jen Rudolph:

I would like actors to be educated right out of school or in school, you know, about, like, the necessity of understanding how this business works and how every business works.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. I think from high school. Yeah, from high school onward, I think there needs to be more attention to personal budgeting, how to create a business or how to sustain yourself.

Jen Rudolph:

Yeah, all of it. I think it's a hot mess. You know what I mean? Like, like, I think all of these amazing people are coming into the world and they're like, now what do I do? And it's like, they're wasting so much time. They're, like, throwing spaghetti at the wall. They don't know what the heck they're doing. And then they're like, I've just wasted, like, so much time and I spent all this money and I'm like, I mean, every business requires investment, but, you know, like, do it smartly.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah.

Jen Rudolph:

Do it in a smart way.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And, and for whatever reason, money tends to be kind of one of those kind of taboo subjects, whether it's like sex, religion, politics, these, these, these subjects where we kind of. We hate to dip our toe into it, but, yeah, Every one of us either has money or needs money, and we need to. We need to know what to do with it. And I think, yeah, I've heard from other actors, and I find myself trying to be one of those who, like, you know, I talk about how much I make doing this or, like, I'm getting paid this. Are you getting paid the same? And I've. Through those conversations, I found out that one actor was getting more than I was for the same job. And then I went to my agent, I said, hello. So then I was able to be paid the same.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So it's through these conversations that we can actually build our career and get paid what we're worth.

Jen Rudolph:

Conversations. You got to have the conversations, you know, you got to talk about, like, all the hard things.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Why do you think it's so hard for actors to. To talk about finances?

Jen Rudolph:

Because they weren't taught anything about business. Because they have it in their head that they're artists, you know, and there's this, like, starving artist. I mean, it's just ridiculous. Like, it's like. I mean, you know, I think a lot of actors confuse, like, being in a marketplace, you know, in, like, a. You know, in a world of commerce, but, like, being at, like, an art retreat. You know what I mean? Like, this is a marketplace. It's not an art retreat.

Jen Rudolph:

Like, not everybody gets a trophy. Not everybody's gonna see your work, that everyone's gonna want to, like, have it. Like, you know, and I think that people are just not taught that. Like, you know, yeah, you're an artist as a person, but if you want to make money, it's commerce, you know, and so in that way, it's like, you got to get into the money conversation. Like, you got to figure out, like, the laws of business apply. Once you want to make money from your product, like, that's it. So I think that they're so resistant and that, you know, they're so resentful because they don't see it, like, in that way. So I think that that's what it is.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

It's. It's interesting that you bring that up, because I. I was part of a subreddit, and one of the. The. The questions that was posted was about this guy who cast a show, and it was a program where, you know, kids from junior high to high school and as they move up, there's kind of. Or there's often this expectation, well, the seniors are going to get the lead roles because it's their last year in the program or whatever. It is, but he was like, no, I actually cast a junior because they were better in the role and this senior is going to do something else. And he was kind of posting and people were like, how can you do that? The senior should have that, the thing.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And I take it as no, if, like, who's ever best needs to get the role. And, and, and that's hard for. Yeah, that's hard for some people to be. They'd be like, no, but they put in so much time. They're seniors that ready.

Jen Rudolph:

Nobody cares. Nobody cares how much time you put in. Nobody cares how much you spent on your training. They care about themselves. Right. And how do you bring value to what it is that they need? It's not about you.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah.

Jen Rudolph:

You know, that's, that's where, like I say, there's entitlement and then there's ambition. Ready? Here's what the difference is. Entitlement is expecting another person or another entity to close the gap between where you are and where you want to be. Ambition is about, you have to close the gap.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Right.

Jen Rudolph:

You know what I'm saying? So it's like, you know, there's this entitlement, like, well, you should do this for me because I did this. It's like, no, no, nobody cares about that. That's why I'm like, don't spend all this money on these, like, ridiculously priced degrees. Get good training. Yes. Continue to like, train your instrument. Yes, of course. But you know, like, you gotta understand, like, you gotta learn how this works.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah.

Jen Rudolph:

Gotta learn how it works. Otherwise you end up with me eventually. And then you're like, oh, my God, I spent all this money. And I'm like, I know you did, but you didn't have any strategies. You were throwing, you know, like darts in the dark. Like, I get it.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, it's, it is a balance between that, that artistic and the talent and skill set there with, with, with that business mindset, which is what we've been talking about. It's about both need equal attention. You can't just sacrifice one for the other.

Jen Rudolph:

No, no. It has to be both. Yeah, yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, number five, describe a personal lesson that has taken you a while to learn or one that you're still working on to this day.

Jen Rudolph:

Oh, you will find out who your friends are when you become successful.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Has success been hard for some of your friends?

Jen Rudolph:

Your success has been hard for me. Yeah. Like, I mean, I feel like I've lost a lot of people along the way because, you know, like, when your light shine bright, like when your light shines bright, it brings out other people's shadows. You know what I'm saying? And it's like, I've always been very encouraging of my. Of anyone, like, in my orbit. But, you know, like, you really, like, you really learn, like, who your friends are when you become super successful and, you know, just really, you know, pay attention to who you give your energy to, who you allow in your orbit, all of that. And I'm still learning that, you know, like, I used to be, like, so out there and have all these friends, and now I have a small circle, and I'm very happy about it.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jen Rudolph:

It's intentional.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. You realize that maybe it wasn't so much of a friendship, but they saw you as an opportunity or a way.

Jen Rudolph:

To get somewhere 100%.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it's interesting as I was kind of researching and, And I know you from online, but obviously I, you know, went to your website and then started. Started found the deadline article and other things. And yeah, you. You've probably, as you've gotten more successful, it seems you've also gotten more criticism. Some people not appreciate not appreciating what you do.

Jen Rudolph:

Yeah, I know. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I've been called a scammer. I've been. I mean, there's all this, like, all these narratives out there, and I'm just like, oh, a scam is an intent to deceive. Right. Like, there's something fraudulent happening.

Jen Rudolph:

There's nothing fraudulent. Like, you know, if you're triggered by money, if you're triggered by, you know, marketing speak, if you're triggered by any of that, you're going to really not like me, you know, but, you know, like, there's a lot of narratives out there that I'm like, yeah, like, you know, I trigger people. That's okay.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And when it comes to criticism, there's. I guess there's two approaches to it. There's, you know, just, you know, let it roll off your back, keep going, or try to address it, fix whatever problems may have. Maybe that critique has some truth into it. How have you balanced both of those approaches?

Jen Rudolph:

I've done it both ways. I mean, like, I've. I've always been like, listen, like, if you want to talk about something, like, you're welcome to message me. I'm happy to have an open dialogue about anything that you may read or see. Because again, what you see online is usually not really the truth. It is.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

The Internet isn't always truthful. I Don't understand.

Jen Rudolph:

Wait, fault. No, you know, actor. Actor, man. 96, you know, who, who has a bone to pick with me. Like, let's get like the full scoop. Let's get the real narrative. Let's, you know, let's get the context, let's get the backstory, let's get all of the, like, all that out there. So I'm always like, yo, you have questions, hit me up.

Jen Rudolph:

I will tell you the whole truth, nothing but the truth, you know, I mean, I've done that like in a public way. And it's, you know, some people are like, I hate you anyway. I'm like, okay, great. You know, I've done it in a private way. I mean, at this point I'm just like, the way I feel is like, if you're going to go on Reddit and like, use that as like your vetting source, like, I don't know that we're supposed to work together. Like, you know, there's gonna be always a small, I mean, listen, like, you know, like, a lot of my colleagues have this too. There's always going to be people online who are like, this is, this person's bad and they did this and they're a predator, they did this and they're horrible. Like, I mean, that's with anybody.

Jen Rudolph:

So, you know, the people who go to Reddit, I feel like, are just kind of like self sabotaging themselves. I'm like, come to me, talk to people that have actually worked with me who are like, identifiable, you know, but I'm an open book. I'm like, listen, you know, I'm here, I'm, I'm here for anything anyone wants to ask me at any time.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, I mean, it also helps that you've, that you found success, both financially, but also creatively and business wise. And so success can be its own, I, I guess barrier against such critiques.

Jen Rudolph:

Yeah, yeah. And also, I mean, you know, if you have a strong opinion about anything, people are going to come for you.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

You know, and especially in this day and age. Yeah.

Jen Rudolph:

Oh my God. I mean, oh my God. I mean, especially like, you know, if you have, you know, like, if you're telling people to invest in themselves and people have scarcity issues, they're going to come for you. You know, like, if you are priced at a certain place where they're like, but I can't afford that, they're gonna come for you because they're like, you know, rather than I should learn how to, you know, how to rise, I'm gonna try to knock you down because it bothers me. You know what I'm saying? So it's like, people are gonna come for you if you, you know, like, if you trigger them. Like, like, like if you press against their, their issues, you know, or, you know, like, if people have experiences and they're like, I'm just gonna go and blast about this. And it's not actually like, you know, the full story. I, like, people love to just post anonymously and just like, dump.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah.

Jen Rudolph:

Like, I've, you know, I see it. I see it for my friends. I see it. And I'm just like, okay.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And it's kind of like what we were saying before. It's like, yeah. And, and you even admitted maybe your program isn't for everyone. That. So it doesn't 100.

Jen Rudolph:

I mean, a hundred percent.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So find what does.

Jen Rudolph:

I've turned a lot of people away. Like, believe it or not, I've turned a lot of people away because I've. I've either like, sense red flags or I'm like, this isn't a fit, you know, But I mean, again, like, here's the thing, right? Like, it's like, I've worked with, like, probably like 10 coaches at this point. Some are better than others, you know, but I've never once pointed a finger at anyone that I've worked with because there's always been value there. And if I haven't gotten what I wanted, I usually look at, well, what did I do to make this happen or not happen? Like, I always take, you know, like, self responsibility. Like, that's just how I do things. So I'm always like, you know, if something is proven to work, like, 85 of the time and it doesn't work for you, like, is it, is it the thing or is it like a combination of, like, factors as to, like, why this didn't work for you? You know what I'm saying?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, I'm. I'm definitely one of those people as well that I, I always at least try. I'm not saying, you know, I, I haven't blamed others or I haven't, you know, been, you know, mad at this or frustrated with that, but I do at least try to first point at myself and be like, okay, what did I do or not do? How can I improve?

Jen Rudolph:

Always.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Always. Yeah, it makes no sense to start pointing fingers at other people without seeing your part in it.

Jen Rudolph:

Nope. Nope.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yep. Well, Jen, this has been, it's been a great conversation with you. It's. It's been so great getting to know you beyond just, you know, the social media presence that I first saw you. So it's been really great that you've been so, so open and honest about your career and your path.

Jen Rudolph:

I'm so honored. I love being here. I love talking to you. And. Yeah. You know, for anyone who's out there, like, who's listening to this, like, if you feel invisible, you know, reach out and we can have a conversation and I can see if I can help you.