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[0:04] Patrick Oliver Jones: Plus, it was just very distracting to sit, you know, in the house and try to write lyrics while six-pack abs were everywhere, all around you, flipping around.

[0:19] Patrick Oliver Jones: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Why I'll Never Make It, featuring insightful stories and conversations with fellow artists on the realities of a career in the entertainment industry.

[0:32] Patrick Oliver Jones: I'm your host, Patrick Oliver Jones.

[0:33] Patrick Oliver Jones: And to find out more about Why I'll Never Make It or Win Me for short, you can go to the website WinMePodcast.com.

[0:44] Patrick Oliver Jones: Now, no matter what you do in the performing arts, whether it's an actor like myself, a director, stage manager, a producer, all of us have one beginning.

[0:56] Patrick Oliver Jones: We have one person who starts it all, and that is the writer.

[1:01] Patrick Oliver Jones: The person who comes up with the story, the lyricist that comes up with the words that the singers sing in the musical.

[1:08] Patrick Oliver Jones: And these are the people that really are the foundation of our industry.

[1:13] Patrick Oliver Jones: Without them, we have nothing to sing, we have nothing to act on, we have no story to tell.

[1:20] Patrick Oliver Jones: And today I have a very special writer, Jenny Stafford.

[1:24] Patrick Oliver Jones: Now, she and I met a few years ago at a program at NYU, the Tisch School for the Arts there, called the Musical Theatre Writing Graduate Program.

[1:36] Patrick Oliver Jones: And it's a program that brings together composers, lyricists, and book writers that gives them a two-year focus on honing their craft in creating musicals.

[1:46] Patrick Oliver Jones: And she and I worked together on a show that she wrote called Star Child.

[1:52] Patrick Oliver Jones: We only spent four days together, but it was a memorable show, and I even got to do it several months later, about a year later, for another reading of that same musical.

[2:03] Patrick Oliver Jones: And it's a show that I hope has a long life for years to come.

[2:08] Patrick Oliver Jones: But for today, she gets to talk about what she's done not only there at Tisch, but also her work beyond that.

[2:16] Patrick Oliver Jones: And it's taken her to Denver, Colorado, which is where she currently lives, and is a director and assistant professor of theater studies at Colorado Christian University.

[2:27] Patrick Oliver Jones: When I was in Colorado a few years back, I was performing in Colorado Springs doing Fun Home.

[2:34] Patrick Oliver Jones: And I took some time out on one of my days off to go to the university and speak to some of her students there.

[2:39] Patrick Oliver Jones: And it was a really wonderful time to sit down with them and talk about my own experiences, a lot of what we do here on the podcast, as well as answer questions that they had about the business.

[2:51] Patrick Oliver Jones: And so for today, I'm turning the microphone on her to ask her questions about her own career, her writing style, and how she came about working on the Broadway musical Paramour, which was produced by Cirque du Soleil.

[3:05] Patrick Oliver Jones: She has some great stories, and there's a lot for us to learn because she herself started as a musical theater performer and then worked her way into writing.

[3:14] Patrick Oliver Jones: So here's my good friend and very special guest, Jenny Stafford, lyricist and bookwriter.

[3:26] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, Jenny, uh thank you so much for joining me over the phone.

[3:33] Jenny Stafford: Thanks so much for having me.

[3:34] Jenny Stafford: Technology is amazing.

[3:36] Patrick Oliver Jones: Right?

[3:36] Jenny Stafford: It can reach us everywhere.

[3:38] Patrick Oliver Jones: It knows where to find us.

[3:39] Patrick Oliver Jones: So you're in Colorado visiting your family, which is where you live now.

[3:43] Jenny Stafford: Um yeah, I've been for the last few years splitting my time between Denver and New York.

[3:48] Jenny Stafford: I was in New York full-time for about six or seven years, and then got a job as the head of the theater department at a university out here in Denver.

[3:57] Jenny Stafford: So um it circled out really well, actually.

[3:59] Jenny Stafford: Like an academic schedule works really well with being able to go back and forth and keep projects going in New York, also.

[4:05] Jenny Stafford: So I'm sort of bi-coastal without the coast on this end.

[4:09] Patrick Oliver Jones: It's like a bi-coastal and a half.

[4:11] Patrick Oliver Jones: You're more inland.

[4:12] Jenny Stafford: Right.

[4:13] Patrick Oliver Jones: So was that a transition for you going from the busyness of New York, that type of writing schedule and meetings and all that kind of stuff to a more structured life there in Colorado?

[4:25] Jenny Stafford: Yeah, it's been really nice actually.

[4:27] Jenny Stafford: When I was living in New York, I was mostly, or actually, I was entirely freelancing.

[4:32] Jenny Stafford: So I was working for lots of different organizations and I was working at a different place every day and spending a lot of time on the subway, getting out to different schools where I was working as a teaching artist.

[4:42] Jenny Stafford: So it's actually been really conducive to my writing to have this job that I have now where I like know what my schedule is, I know when my breaks are, um, I know how much my paycheck is going to be every month, which is really nice.

[4:56] Patrick Oliver Jones: That always helps.

[4:57] Jenny Stafford: Yeah.

[4:58] Jenny Stafford: So it's actually been really helpful, and I think it's actually helped my writing a lot in that I can like make really concentrated trips back to New York when I'm like, okay, I'm going for this purpose.

[5:08] Jenny Stafford: I'm meeting with these people.

[5:10] Jenny Stafford: This is the work that we're doing while I'm there.

[5:12] Jenny Stafford: And I can have more of a structured writing schedule here also.

[5:16] Patrick Oliver Jones: Because it was in New York that you and I met for the first time when you were getting your uh musical theater writing degree from NYU Tisch.

[5:25] Jenny Stafford: Yes, that is correct.

[5:26] Jenny Stafford: You were in my thesis show.

[5:28] Patrick Oliver Jones: And it was I I've done quite a handful of those, you know, from the longer presentations, the full musicals that you were a part of, as well as some of the uh the shorter one acts, which the first year students do.

[5:42] Jenny Stafford: And uh Star Child was the name of that one.

[5:45] Patrick Oliver Jones: And just kind of walk through the process of that musical theater curriculum and presenting that thesis and what that was like to, well, you know, I was in it, so I certainly loved it.

[5:56] Patrick Oliver Jones: And it was a it was a great piece to work on.

[6:02] Jenny Stafford: Yeah, it's a pretty special place.

[6:02] Jenny Stafford: I absolutely loved my two years there.

[6:07] Jenny Stafford: Um, yeah, it's the NYU Musical Theater Writing Program.

[6:10] Jenny Stafford: Um, and in the two-year program, the first year, um, you're accepted either as a words person or as a music person.

[6:17] Jenny Stafford: And so the first year, it's basically just speed dating where you go around and you write with um everybody who's in the other discipline.

[6:25] Jenny Stafford: So I was accepted as a words person.

[6:27] Jenny Stafford: So the first year I went around and I wrote with every single composer in the program.

[6:32] Jenny Stafford: And at the end of the first year, you make a big document of who you would like to work with the second year when you're just gonna work with one uh dedicated person to write a full-length show over the course of that year.

[6:43] Jenny Stafford: And so I was one of the really lucky ones, I thought, in that I got to write two full-length shows uh the second year.

[6:50] Jenny Stafford: And so then, yeah, you spend the whole second year just writing and writing and writing and bringing your work into workshops and bringing your work into a faculty panel.

[6:59] Jenny Stafford: And then at the very end of the year in May, they put on a 29-hour reading where they bring in professional actors, um, professional directors, music directors, and you get to see uh your baby that you've been working on for the last year uh in front of an audience and come to fruition.

[7:15] Jenny Stafford: And it's so stressful and so delightful and terrifying and wonderful and everything all at the same time.

[7:22] Patrick Oliver Jones: Now, since Tisch, you've had a lot of opportunity to see your work kind of come to fruition, as you say, and get that time on stage, whether in a reading or in a full production.

[7:36] Patrick Oliver Jones: What exactly is that stress like?

[7:39] Patrick Oliver Jones: Do you is there a point at which it starts to not feel like your own and it's taking on a life of its own and and you're just watching it?

[7:46] Patrick Oliver Jones: Or through that whole process, do you still feel like your hand is guiding it?

[7:51] Jenny Stafford: What a great question.

[7:52] Jenny Stafford: Um, I feel like, especially in new works development, I feel like your hand as the writer is still guiding it because you're still changing things all along the way for the most part.

[8:03] Jenny Stafford: Um, I have not gotten to the point where a show of mine has been like licensed and I just show up and go see it somewhere and like they did what they did to it.

[8:10] Jenny Stafford: And I wonder if that would be a different feeling of like, ah, this show is frozen forever, nothing will change about it, and now I just go see what it is.

[8:18] Jenny Stafford: Uh, but so far, all of my work for the most part has been um, I'm there in the room, I'm helping shepherd it along, and you're sort of constantly critiquing it of like, oh, that joke didn't work, or like, oh, that moment really landed, or oh, this scene is dragging, it's so slow, I need to cut this out.

[8:34] Jenny Stafford: So I feel pretty stressed and involved in it most of the time when I'm watching it.

[8:40] Patrick Oliver Jones: And in that process of needing to change this or cut this out, at this point, is it kind of, I guess for lack of a better word, academic where you just look at it, it's like, okay, that's not working.

[8:50] Patrick Oliver Jones: This is working, we'll do this next step.

[8:53] Patrick Oliver Jones: Or is it really like a piece of you getting cut out every time you have to take this song away or change this character?

[9:00] Jenny Stafford: Yeah, I think it really depends on the moment because sometimes you'll like watch something be happening on stage, and it's like this doesn't work at all, and there is like no sadness in getting rid of it because it's just painful to watch it happen every night and be like, this is terrible.

[9:15] Jenny Stafford: It's time to take this part of it out.

[9:17] Jenny Stafford: Um, but there are definitely other times when I've worked on shows um where even just for like length, it's running too long, and you have to cut a part of the show that you really love, and you're like, uh, it's not moving the story forward fast enough, but like, man, it was beautiful, or man, I loved that moment.

[9:33] Jenny Stafford: And you know, they have that phrase, killing your darlings, and you have to do it for the good of the show, but sometimes it hurts.

[9:39] Patrick Oliver Jones: Now, are you saving some of these cut works and keeping them in a trunk so that you know one day there'll be that CD release of the trunk songs of Jenny Stafford?

[9:48] Jenny Stafford: Yeah, exactly.

[9:49] Jenny Stafford: After I win my ninth Tony, I will release that fabulous album of cut songs.

[9:55] Patrick Oliver Jones: Now, one of the favorite stories that you know, since our time with Tisch, I've been following your career, and one of my favorite stories is you getting the opportunity to join the Cirque du Soleil, the Paramour show.

[10:08] Patrick Oliver Jones: Uh, please share how you got to be in that room and a part of that team.

[10:13] Jenny Stafford: It was a wild story.

[10:15] Jenny Stafford: It was crazy.

[10:16] Jenny Stafford: Um, I had right before I got that job, I had moved to Denver.

[10:21] Jenny Stafford: Um, a boyfriend of mine at the time, his job had transferred him from New York to Denver, and my family was here, and we'd been together a long time, and I was like, okay, I'll go to Denver and like see what this is, see if I can like make a life here.

[10:34] Jenny Stafford: Um, and I got to Denver and I was miserable.

[10:37] Jenny Stafford: Like I was super miserable.

[10:39] Jenny Stafford: I um had like a knee injury that was preventing a lot of things, and the relationship that I'd moved here for was not going well.

[10:45] Jenny Stafford: And I pretty much always made my money as a teaching artist.

[10:49] Jenny Stafford: And I moved to Denver like in the middle of the school year, so there was no work for me.

[10:53] Jenny Stafford: And so I was just, I don't know, sitting on my couch really sad every day, and I finally got down to like my last $40 in my bank account.

[11:01] Jenny Stafford: And I was like, okay, I think I need to like get some kind of terrible job just to pay my bills.

[11:07] Jenny Stafford: And I got a job babysitting for this family with a baby that just cried incessantly.

[11:12] Jenny Stafford: It was a horrible job.

[11:14] Jenny Stafford: I hated it, and I just felt like I had ruined my life because I had moved to Denver and now I had the same job that I had when I was 12.

[11:21] Jenny Stafford: I was a babysitter, and so I was sitting in the parking lot.

[11:25] Jenny Stafford: So Denver is going really well.

[11:27] Jenny Stafford: Denver is going awesome.

[11:28] Jenny Stafford: I've been here for like three months at this point.

[11:32] Jenny Stafford: And I was sitting in the park with this baby who had like finally fallen asleep at one point, one miraculous moment when she wasn't screaming.

[11:40] Jenny Stafford: And I checked my email, and I had an email from a woman named Jaina, who was an executive director with Paramour's Cirque du Soleil.

[11:49] Jenny Stafford: And she said, Hi, we got your name from uh West Hyler, who was working as a director on the show, and he had actually directed The Star Child at NYU, um, the thesis reading.

[12:00] Jenny Stafford: And she said, We are in previews, our show opens in two weeks.

[12:04] Jenny Stafford: Um, our lyricist uh moved back to Sweden, and English was not his first language, and the lyrics are not where we want them to be.

[12:12] Jenny Stafford: And West suggested, you uh, what are you doing for the next two weeks?

[12:16] Jenny Stafford: And I said, I'm doing whatever you want me to do.

[12:20] Jenny Stafford: So I took that baby back to its house and I said, I'm never coming back.

[12:23] Jenny Stafford: Broadway called, and I left.

[12:27] Patrick Oliver Jones: So literally, you got the dream call that we're all you Broadway literally called you.

[12:32] Jenny Stafford: Broadway literally called, yeah, while I was sitting in the park at the most horrible job I'd ever had.

[12:37] Jenny Stafford: And it was surreal.

[12:39] Jenny Stafford: It was crazy.

[12:39] Patrick Oliver Jones: And within 24 hours, I was on a plane back to New York to work on this show.

[12:45] Patrick Oliver Jones: It's really crazy how sudden things can come about.

[12:49] Patrick Oliver Jones: And you know, we we think as as you were for three or four months, you were basically at a dead end.

[12:55] Patrick Oliver Jones: You didn't see what was coming, and then all of a sudden something pops up.

[12:58] Patrick Oliver Jones: And you're you're right.

[12:59] Patrick Oliver Jones: You had mentioned West Hyler, he was the director of our Star Child, and West has done a lot of New York work both on and off Broadway.

[13:08] Patrick Oliver Jones: So I think one important lesson, at least from this first part of the story, is that you really have to make a good impression and really work well with others because you never know when they might be in a position to offer you a next job or connect you with someone.

[13:25] Jenny Stafford: Right.

[13:37] Jenny Stafford: Um, you know, but also I'd been working my butt off pretty steadily for you know six or seven years at that point as a musical theater writer, like throwing things out here and like getting this show put up here. And so West had sort of been like following what I had been doing, and while none of it had been huge up to that point, it was enough for him to sort of follow that bunny trail of like, oh, she's steadily working. Oh, she's done these kinds of things, you know, so that it was like it wasn't overnight, it was like a career that I'd been slowly building, which I think is another thing that we forget about too. Is it it feels like overnight this big thing, but it's also like, oh no, you've been working really hard towards it for a long time.

That old saying of a watched pot never boils. I think it's the same with our careers. If if we watch it, if we're constantly eyeing it, engaging it and seeing where we are, I think we lose track of where it's actually going and how it's building until one day all of a sudden it's boiling. It's hot. It's actually going where we want it to go. And I think we have to just slow and steady wins the race. We have to just keep working and putting out the work. You know, like you said, you you hadn't done huge shows, you hadn't done other Broadway stuff, but you were constantly working, and West was able to see that and see your consistency.

[14:47] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah.

[14:48] Jenny Stafford: I mean, we say it a lot. It's about like showing up and doing the work, and that's really all you can do. So once you showed up to Paramour, what was that first day like and and the process going forward?

[15:01] Jenny Stafford: It was wild. Um, yeah, I joined this team. They had already been together for months and months and months. So I was like the new kid jumping in and trying to like navigate everything that was happening in the show and the story. Um, and basically the process of it was they sent me to see the show that night. And then I had meetings with the creative team afterwards, and they said, okay, here's the first song that we think isn't working. Like go home and rewrite it and bring something in tomorrow. And I was like, great. So I went home and I wrote lyrics all night long. And I brought them in the next day and showed it to the creative team, and they gave it to the actors, and then the actors learned it.

And by like the next night, it was in the show. It was like in the in the performance. And that was wild. It was crazy. And that was the process for the next two weeks. Pretty much every night we sat down, we said, okay, which song do we want to do next? I'd go home, I'd write all night, I'd bring it in, it'd be in the show the next night. And we just did that over and over and over. It was funny because it was like my biggest dream slash my worst nightmare at the same time. Because like your biggest dream as a writer is to like write something that's on Broadway, and your worst nightmare is to have your first draft of something on Broadway in front of 2,000 people, you know. So it was such an exciting experience, but it was also, was it the greatest lyrics I ever wrote in my life?

Like, no, it was not because I didn't have any time, you know, or any say in what the story was. There were a lot of parameters on it, and everything I wrote had to fit to music that was already existing, and it all had to be done very quickly. So it was such a dream to do, but it was also, you know.

[16:39] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, because like all the work that you had done had been you'd work on something for three months or six months. So you'd get to kind of work on it, get it developed, change this lyric, change that character, what whatever you needed to do. Whereas for this, it literally was write it two days later, it's in. So for Paramour, was there any type of, oh, let's change this word or change this, or literally did you hand it to him and that went in?

[17:02] Jenny Stafford: There was still a little bit of um, oh, like this phrasing doesn't quite work, or could we change this word? There was still a little bit of back and forth. Um, but yeah, usually I was like used to several months of that back and forth until you craft it into exactly what you want. And this was like half an hour of that back and forth until you craft it into uh what works best and then time's up. And one of the things that's fun about the show is they've now transferred it to Germany, and part of the process of transferring it to Germany is they rehired the writing team, and we got to write a new draft of the show. I got like a second chance to write all of those lyrics. They wrote a new book and they translated it into German, and it's running in Hamburg right now, and so like the German version of it is the German version is beautiful, and no one in America will ever know. But at least the Germans are getting the best thing that you could do.

[17:55] Patrick Oliver Jones: That's right.

[17:55] Jenny Stafford: The Germans got all the lyrics that I had more than 12 hours to write. So I got to sit down with the book writer and the director, and we all sat in the same room and talked about the story and how we wanted to change it, and where did we need a reprise of this song and where could we cut a part of this song? And it was, you know, an actual like collaborative process, like it would have been if I had been part of it from the very beginning the first time. So I think that's why the German production is in so much better shape because they got all the creative people in the room and we had the conversations together, and I think it's going well over in Germany so far. I'd like to go see it at some point, even though I won't understand it.

[18:35] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, I mean, Cirque du Soleil is such a visual medium that the music enhances the emotion of it. But even if you don't understand the lyrics, generally the story comes through.

[18:45] Jenny Stafford: Absolutely. And even if not, there's like people turning themselves inside out everywhere. So it's still a really enjoyable experience to watch and be wowed by what these people can do.

[18:55] Patrick Oliver Jones: Right. And that was actually my other question because you had done very traditional book musicals of telling a story and you know, actual characters that go through some kind of arc, whereas Cirque du Soleil is a much different kind of medium when it comes to telling a story. Did that throw you at all or influence how you wrote?

[19:15] Jenny Stafford: Well, the interesting thing about Paramour was it was their first time trying to create a book musical that does have an arc and characters and a storyline while infusing it with all of the Cirque du Soleil acrobatic acts. And so I still felt very at home in, oh, it's a book musical, and I understand what these characters want and how to move them forward. But it was a whole other element of, oh, they're gonna sing this song, you know, while this incredible trapeze act is going on, or while people are flying overhead. Uh so it was it was a lot of fun to sort of see another medium added into it and seeing how that could heighten a moment. Plus, it was just very distracting to sit, you know, in the house and try to write lyrics while six-pack abs were everywhere, all around you, flipping around.

[20:05] Patrick Oliver Jones: I mean, yes, that can be distracting to anyone.

[20:09] Jenny Stafford: There's some very beautiful people working for Cirque du Soleil.

[20:14] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, speaking of beauty, uh I assume that there were moments when the lyrics would then be on stage and it maybe wasn't quite as beautiful as it sounded the night before when you were writing it.

[20:26] Jenny Stafford: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Basically, at that point, it was it just had to stay with the show, and you really didn't get to revisit any of those lyrics until Germany. Is that correct?

[20:37] Jenny Stafford: Pretty much. We did a small rewrite the following fall. Um, Cirque du Soleil kind of closed the show down for about a month and revamped it. So we got to redo some of the lyrics at that point, but not as big of an overhaul as we got to do for Germany. Um, but yeah, it's it's interesting to hear them on stage and be like, I wish I had had more time to find a better rhyme for that. Or, you know, then it went on to be recorded in the cast recording. So I listen to that sometimes and I'm like, oh, that that's not my greatest lyric that I ever wrote, but there it is, recorded on the cast recording.

[21:12] Patrick Oliver Jones: That's right.

[21:13] Jenny Stafford: That's it. Forever and ever. That's what you'll be known as.

[21:16] Patrick Oliver Jones: Permanently recorded right there.

[21:19] Jenny Stafford: That brings up an interesting part of your process. You talk about finding rhymes and finding the basically the meter of lyrics and how they work with the music. What is your process like for that? Is there a thesaurus next to you as you write, or is it really you're trying to just get a through line and then you go back and edit it and make it rhyme or make it fit into the music? What is that process like?

[21:42] Jenny Stafford: It sort of depends on the song and on the show and on the composer that I'm working with, really. Um, there are several of them that really like to sit and talk through what is the whole arc of this song, what is the A section saying, what is the B section saying, what is the turn? And there are others that say, you know, you just go and write it and give it to me, and then we'll talk about it. Uh, but for me generally I like to start with the story and like why is this character singing in this moment and like what is the arc of this song? Where do I want them to start and where do I want them to be by the end of it? And I've gotten to a point now where I've been writing long enough where my mind just sort of thinks of that in terms of meter and in terms of rhyme.

And so usually I can get a version of it down that is what I want to say in a lyrical way. Um, that then I come back to once there's music and say, Oh, this would be beautiful if we repeated this line, or oh, it'd be great if we had one more line that rhymes with this particular rhyme scheme, but always starting with the story and the character.

[22:46] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, of course. And in this collaboration, is is there one who kind of leads the way, or does it depend on the team? Because it it sounds like the composer may kind of have the the brunt of it, and then you kind of fit into their vision, or is it really uh a back and forth collaboration?

[23:05] Jenny Stafford: Yeah, it's really a back and forth. Um, I only have one composer that I work with that likes to work music first, and I love working music first because it sort of breaks me out of the patterns that I generally fall into as far as you know, line length or rhyme scheme or things like that. Um, so I love when I get music and I get to write lyrics to that, um, which was what I got to do with Paramour because everything was written and orchestrated and couldn't be changed. So that was kind of a fun uh perk of that one. Uh, but for other ones, a lot of the time I'll write the lyric first, because a lot of the composers that I work with, they say I don't know what kind of music to write until I know what this person is saying.

[23:43] Oh, I see.

[23:44] Jenny Stafford: Whether it's angry, whether it's sad, whether they're they're excited or whether they're more melancholy, that kind of thing. Right. And so then it's a lot of back and forth where I'll send them a lyric and they'll either write music to it or they'll say, like, this lyric isn't doing it for me. I feel confused by this turn in it. I feel confused by this phrase. And from there, usually it's a lot of back and forth, uh, which is my favorite part of the process. Because then you're actually honing the the song.

[24:11] Patrick Oliver Jones: And do you kind of put your two cents in to where a melody goes or or how the music goes?

[24:17] Jenny Stafford: Uh yeah, I'll do that sometimes too. Um, it's funny. I started my undergrad degree was in musical theater performance. And so I started out as an actor and a singer, and I did that for a long time. And then later in my life, when I discovered, like, oh, that's not really what I'm most passionate about doing. What I really want to do is write. I felt really upset that I had wasted so much time in like acting classes and I'd wasted so much time in music theory classes and things like that. But the thing that's been really fascinating is a lot of lyricists don't read music and don't speak music. And so it's harder for them to communicate with composers about what they want. Whereas I really enjoy being able to sit down with a composer and saying, like, oh, what if this started on the pickup to measure six?

Or what if this was a dotted eighth, sixteenth? Or what if this, you know, resolved on this particular chord? And the composers that I work with, like, I'm really open to their input on my lyrics and they're open to input on music, and that's why we work well together. But yeah, it's been interesting to sort of come full circle and realize, oh, all those things that I was studying before when I was an actor weren't a waste of time. And they've come around and they've made me a better writer. Because then you you understand not just how to compose a story, but what it means to put it in someone's voice and someone's body and and actually come to live on stage. And so you you know that process and you can write in a certain way so that it's easier for the actor.

[25:44] Jenny Stafford: Yeah, absolutely. And it's been interesting. Like when I got that chance to work on Paramour, it was amazing to sort of see all of the skills that I had collected over the course of my life that I thought had been a waste of time were really needed when I got that big chance. I was in the room with the composers downstairs being like, Oh, can this be a pickup to whatever? Oh, can we like adjust this note just a little bit? Or they had me record a little demo of a song so that they could send it out to the cast and they were like, Oh, can you just sing all four parts? And all of a sudden I was doing all this sight reading that I thought would have been a waste of time. But like wow. I glad I learned how to do it.

They were saying, Hey, can you go talk to this actor and talk them through like the emotional arc of this lyrics? So all of that acting training that I had done came into play. So I know it was kind of a beautiful moment for me realizing I didn't waste as much of my life as I thought I had.

[26:36] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, it really seems like you got to exercise a lot of your creative muscles with Paramour. It wasn't just you were brought in to do words. You you really got to do a little bit of directing, a little bit of coaching, a l uh uh, you know, teaching the the music to them.

[26:50] Jenny Stafford: Uh not so much of the teaching of music and things like that. Um, but just sort of, you know, if an actor had a question about a lyric for me being able to like approach them from an acting standpoint and being like, oh, well, this is why I wrote this for this character. This is where I imagine that they're at at that point. What was it interesting for the actors themselves to now have new lyrics that they hadn't been singing for months and months?

[27:12] Jenny Stafford: Actors are amazing. I don't know how they did any of the things they did in that show, because it wasn't just lyrics that were changing, so many things were changing, just like in any preview process. But just to see the amount of things that were thrown at them every day that then they had to do on stage in front of 2,000 people, I was completely in awe of them. They're absolutely amazing.

[27:31] Jenny Stafford: Yeah, I mean, I've never been required to learn a song in two days, but especially to be learning a new song and then do the old version that night while still learning the new version during the day. I don't know that I have that many compartments in my brain to put to not becoming a mesh of things.

[27:53] Patrick Oliver Jones: No, although I have seen you learn a song with incredible speed, so I don't know what you're talking about.

[27:59] Jenny Stafford: That NYU process gives you almost zero time to learn all of your songs.

[28:03] Patrick Oliver Jones: That is true.

[28:04] Jenny Stafford: But we do have the music in front of us, which is a big help. But yeah, the one act that we do, we get two days to do that. And so that's really quick. I mean, you literally start from scratch one morning and the next morning you're kind of honing it and you perform it that afternoon. So a day and a half, really. And then with your guys' show for Star Child, for example, yeah, we got four days to really work on that and put it together. So it is kind of trial by fire with those quick turnaround times.

[28:37] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, and I know a really big requirement for all of the actors that they hire for that is they have to be just killer musicians, they have to be killer sight readers, you have to be able to learn a song really fast.

[28:47] Jenny Stafford: Yeah. So yeah, you guys have crazy skills that you bring into the room.

[28:52] Patrick Oliver Jones: Now, when it comes to writing with people, I was looking through some of the songs that you did, or excuse me, some of the shows that you've done. And it seems like with almost every show, there's a different team. You're writing with different people. Is that fun to kind of have a new process every time, or do you hope to eventually have a Rogers and Hammerstein, Lerner and Loewe type collaboration?

[29:16] Jenny Stafford: Yeah, I have not been extremely monogamous in my writing partnerships thus far. But I actually really, really like that because working with different people brings out different sides of who you are as a person and as a writer. You know, the show that I would write with my friend Sam is completely different than the show I would write with my friend Scotty. And you know, I think there's a really exciting thing about getting in a room with those people and sort of seeing, oh, where do you and I line up as opposed to where I line up with somebody else? And it just pulls different things out of you.

[29:51] Patrick Oliver Jones: Oh, I bet it does. In your writing and stuff, have you noticed, you know, especially there's been a push for more diversity, bringing women in minorities? Is that something that you've seen over your course since you've been writing at Tisch and into your professional career? Have you seen a shift and there's more openness to that type of diversity?

[30:10] Jenny Stafford: I think I have seen it a bit. I think there's still a long way to go, especially sort of at the higher commercial level of productions. I think the conversations are starting to happen, which is great. But you also see a lot of shows that are it's a female protagonist and a completely male writing team and creative team. And so I think we're getting there. I think we're not quite there yet. So there's still a lot of times where you might be the only female voice in the room.

[30:39] Patrick Oliver Jones: Totally. Does that weigh on you in any way, or make you feel like, okay, I need to make sure that I present this female perspective in whatever story we're doing?

[30:50] Jenny Stafford: Well, I think the thing that I found over the last several projects I've been doing is, you know, you can't have diversity just for diversity's sake. You have to have diversity because they're literally bringing a different perspective. You're gonna have different conversations. I'm working on a show right now called The Home Friends that I've been writing with Sam Salmond that we've been developing out in Seattle at the Village Theater in Issaquah. And a big part of that show is it's about female factory workers in World War II and how they were pretty much fired the day that the war ended. And it's about sort of the first wave of feminists that came back and said, Well, wait a minute, the war ended. We were here, we were building all these bombers, we were helping you win this war, and then as soon as it ended, it was like, Thank you very much. Please go like put your apron back on and go back home and forget about all the things you learned about yourself.

[31:40] Jenny Stafford: So that's sort of the thrust of this show, but a big piece of it has been about the way that the African American women were treated during the course of all of that and with labor unions and such. And Sam and I are both white writers, and it was really important to us to have an African American director come on board with it. So we had Malika Oyediran come in and direct it this past March. And just the things that she brought into the room and the conversations that she started were things that, even like as socially conscious as we were trying to be, they were things that were not our own personal experience. And so she was bringing up things that we hadn't even occurred to us. And so I think it's so important that like diversity is not just like, oh, because it's a good thing to do, but it's because it changes the story and it changes the way that we tell stories.

[32:31] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, yeah, and I also think that it makes for much more compelling because yes, probably anyone could write about, you know, the plight of this particular woman or black person going through this hardship story. There is an empathy that most everyone can feel for that. But you're right, there's a different perspective whenever a woman then gives voice to what that must feel like, or someone of color who gives voice to what that type of oppression or discrimination might feel like. And so I imagine that those kind of collaborations, as you say, just kind of spark new ways of telling a story, and especially since you're kind of a wordsmith, it gives you new ways of putting words together and ideas and making them fit into a song.

[33:19] Jenny Stafford: Right, exactly. And for that particular piece, I'm writing a book for that piece. So Sam is writing both music and lyrics. But yeah, it's just the sort of thing, yeah, I can do all the research in the world. That's never going to have been my life experience, you know, to have been an African American woman. And so you have to have somebody who that is their life experience, because they have a completely different perspective that's important, you know, is it's vital to the telling of the story.

[33:47] Patrick Oliver Jones: Has there ever been a moment which your own life, maybe something autobiographical, found its way into one of your books or one of your lyrics?

[33:57] Jenny Stafford: Oof, all the time. And I often don't notice it until several years later when I look back at that piece and I'm like, oh wow, I was working through some stuff in that show.

[34:08] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, I bet because like I guess in some way there's a bit of therapy in that in using this particular character struggle that's mimicking your own, and so you kind of work it out lyrically.

[34:21] Jenny Stafford: Right. Yeah, or just like questions that you find yourself asking over and over, like deeper questions about life that you don't know how to unravel, just sort of subconsciously find their way into the things that you're writing.

[34:33] Patrick Oliver Jones: Does that make writing difficult when it becomes more personal?

[34:37] Jenny Stafford: I think as far as like constructing the story, no, because all of that is right there at the surface and it's easier to grab onto, I think. As far as being vulnerable and deciding like how much of myself do I really want to put into this or put out into the world? Yeah, I think that part is hard.

[34:57] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, I would imagine so. In constructing either lyrics or books, is there one that you have gravitated more toward than the other?

[35:07] Jenny Stafford: You know, I really love doing both. And I feel like in the last couple of years I've done more book than I have lyrics. But it's just sort of been because that's the way the projects have lined up in that particular timeframe. But I really, really do love doing both. They both sort of use a different part of your mind and a different part of your heart.

[35:26] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah. And over the course of your writing, is there that one show or, you know, obviously you want them all to succeed, but is there one or two that really speak to you or that just have meant something special that you really hope get a bigger life than they've had so far?

[35:41] Jenny Stafford: Sure. I wrote a show called Prodigy with Villem Ustazin. That was my other thesis show at NYU that I actually got to direct at the university where I teach last year was the first time I'd ever directed something that I had also written, which was really fun and I kind of got to step outside of it in a different way. But that's a show about a girl who growing up is convinced that she's a prodigy just like her father was, and after he's killed she sort of goes on a journey to figure out who she is and what is her skill in life and is that the thing that defines her or not? And that was one that I wrote during grad school and then working on it last year I was like, whew, there's a lot of me in this show that I didn't realize was in this show until I look at it now years later. So that's one that is pretty special that I would like to see continue to grow and have a life.

[36:33] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, because it certainly seems like in as you were telling that story, thinking back to when you were starting musical theater performance and you were going to be an actor and then all of a sudden there was this turn of, oh, I actually can write. I actually like writing. And that kind of changed the trajectory of your career.

[36:47] Jenny Stafford: Absolutely.

[36:52] Patrick Oliver Jones: And have you enjoyed that shift? Have you wanted to go back to acting at all?

[36:59] Jenny Stafford: No.

[37:02] Patrick Oliver Jones: I have not wanted to go back.

[37:03] Jenny Stafford: Because there are so many people who do it better than I do. You know, there are people like you, there are all these just amazing actors that they get on stage and it's like, ah, that is the thing you were born to do. And it's not the thing I was born to do. It's something I really enjoyed while I was doing it. But once I discovered writing, for me, that was the thing that clicked and it's like, oh, that's what I was born to do. And so I'm very happy to stay off stage and do the writing and let people who are, you know, so gifted at performing do the performing.

[37:34] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, thank you for the compliments, of course. And with your writing, how have you seen it grow over the years? Like, you know, from those early days of Tisch when you were thrown together with people you didn't know until now. What has been that growth for you?

[37:49] Jenny Stafford: Great question. I think growing as a storyteller, sort of being able to go in and construct a story in a more clear way and from a more honest place more quickly. Hoping that sort of my first drafts are getting stronger and stronger. And honestly, just sort of staying in the business long enough that you start to get a little bit of support. This show that I was telling you about that we've been working on at Village Theater, that's the first time I've had a show that's sort of like from the very first idea, a theater came on board and has been nurturing it, which has been really exciting because often as a writer you're sort of just writing in a vacuum and hoping that someday someone reads this and wants to do it and maybe it'll have a life that you don't know. And it's been a really different process for this show from the very first idea, have people like bringing you in and setting up residencies and giving you readings and workshops and things like that.

[38:44] Patrick Oliver Jones: And yeah, it's a really different process writing that way, and it's really nice.

[38:49] Jenny Stafford: Because it sounds like a lot of writing is very alone. And this has given you a chance to be surrounded by people and kind of have it be an environment in which everyone's contributing.

[39:00] Patrick Oliver Jones: Right. And to sort of have a trajectory for it. Like I always know what is the next deadline, what is the next thing that's going to be happening with it, which you don't necessarily know when you're just writing it and sending it out, and like maybe something will happen this year, maybe something will happen in 10 years. You just never know.

[39:16] Jenny Stafford: See, that's what's so different about writing as opposed to us actors, in that, you know, we're taking the stuff that you guys have written, the music and the lyrics, we're learning it, and then we're presenting it in audition after audition, and you know, learning scenes and sides and stuff like that. So we're constantly learning things and then presenting it in an audition. And we know when those auditions are, and we just kind of hope and hope that something will come.

[39:41] Patrick Oliver Jones: What is an audition like for a writer? How do you get that next job?

[39:46] Jenny Stafford: Man, I don't know. If I figure it out, I'll let you know. No, a lot of it is there are opportunities for writers to submit for different awards. There's like the Cleveland Prize and the Larson Award, and there's like certain festivals that happen every year. There's the National Alliance of Musical Theater and the O'Neill and certain residencies and things that you sort of just apply to over and over and over and over and hope that you crack in at some point. And the thing that's been interesting about that is a lot of times people who are on the panels who are making the decisions for those, maybe your show doesn't make it in, but they reach out to you and say, Hey, I think you're a cool writer, I like what you're doing. And I run this other program. Would you be interested in applying for that or writing something for that? So it really is, I don't know. It's like we said, like with auditioning, you just go out over and over and over and hope something sticks.

[40:40] Jenny Stafford: And I think it's pretty similar with writing, where you just write your stuff and throw it out into the wind in as many directions as you can and see if it lands somewhere.

[40:49] Patrick Oliver Jones: Right. And for us actors, like we're really not paid until we're actually casting something and now we're doing a show. And that may not be a lot, or it may maybe a good paycheck. With these awards or with these residencies or different things like that, is that a way for a writer to make money, or is a lot of it more like an internship, or unless you're like selling your script, you know, Samuel French picks it up. How does a writer actually make money to subsidize more writing?

[41:17] Jenny Stafford: Yeah, that's another great question. So far for me, the biggest one has been royalties off of Paramour. And that is, you know, 10 years into the process generally when you've been working on your show forever and now it's run and you're making royalties off of ticket sales. So that's like the main way. And up until then, some of these residencies will offer you a stipend or they'll pay for travel, or some of these awards or cash awards, like the Larson or the Cleveland, those are like pretty significant amounts of money. But beyond that, it takes a while before you see very much money. Every once in a while you'll get lucky and you'll be commissioned by a theater and you'll get paid to write something for them. But yeah, it's pretty up in the air as far as the finances, at least in my case, it has been. Maybe other people are doing it better. You should ask them.

[42:06] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, no, I can imagine that almost every writer is like that. There are people that get to a certain level, you know, obviously, you know, like the Tom Kitts or Andrew Lippa, people like that that have worked their way from the bottom and are now at a place where they have the royalties coming in, and so they're making a living writing. But much like actors, we have to kind of do the other work and maybe we have to do the full-time or part-time jobs in order to kind of coexist with our acting profession. And just like the university, it gives you a chance to have that stability while at the same time still pursuing all your other creative ventures.

[42:45] Jenny Stafford: Oh my gosh, I went to the first HR meeting when they hired me full-time at the university, and like I went from Roger to Benny so fast. I was like, I get dental insurance, I can go to the doctor, I have a retirement fund. Like it was wild. After like years and years of freelancing, that was totally unheard of. And so, yeah, that aspect of it has been nice to sort of subsidize the instability of writing.

[43:13] Jenny Stafford: So when it comes to writing, or I think being in any artistic craft, I think having family and relationships around us is so vital to that, having that support group. Has it affected your relationships or in any personal way like that?

[43:29] Jenny Stafford: Um, yeah, it definitely has. And I think there's a real difference between the people who are very supportive of you and who are on your team and who are your cheerleaders and the people who are not. I recently got out of a relationship with a long-term boyfriend, and my writing career was honestly, a big part of the end of that relationship. Just sort of my travel schedule for writing projects and having to be out of town to work on things and like the instability. There were a lot of aspects that added to the end of that relationship. But for him, that was certainly a big factor is he wanted, you know, to marry somebody that he would come home and they would be there every single day. And that wasn't me, and I wasn't willing to make that me because this is the thing that I want to do with my life, and it requires me to travel to different places. And so yeah, I'm still figuring out how to balance that. But yeah, it has definitely, you know, had an impact.

[44:25] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah. Because growing up, as far as when you were pursuing performing and then getting into writing, was that something that your family was supportive or did they question it along the way?

[44:36] Jenny Stafford: Growing up, it was really interesting. My family was not very supportive at the very beginning. When I sort of first said, man, this is the thing that I want to do when I grow up. They were like, oh, please no, you know, just because it's, you know, it's not stable. And you know, you hear about a lot of savory characters in the entertainment industry. And so I think for a long time it was not their first choice. But the more that they saw that I was really serious about it, and I think the more they saw me make headway in it and pursue it really passionately and seriously, they are now my biggest number one fans. They're at everything, they're huge cheerleaders. I feel really fortunate.

[45:18] Patrick Oliver Jones: What was the first show that your parents got to see to where they knew, okay, she's the real deal. This is it for her.

[45:26] Jenny Stafford: I think they actually became really supportive of me performing back when that was what I was doing. I think in high school, I played Dolly in Hello Dolly, and I think that was a big turning point for them coming to see that show. Being like, oh, look at her like carry this show and look at the hours and hours and hours of her life that she put into this and look how deeply she cares about it. So I think that was a big turning point for them.

[45:50] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, if Dolly Levi can't turn around parents, I don't know what character can. That's her specialty, right?

[45:58] Jenny Stafford: Right.

[45:59] Patrick Oliver Jones: So going forward now, you have this stable career at the university, which is good, which is now supporting your writing, and you're still getting to travel around and go to these different workshops and residencies. Is that kind of where you want to be? Or do you eventually see yourself as settling down, whether it's in Denver, whether it's back in New York or elsewhere? Do you see being able to be in one place? Or is the life of a writer going to be nomadic no matter what you do?

[46:25] Jenny Stafford: I look at the writers who are many years down the road from me and further ahead in their careers than I am. And they seem quite nomadic. They seem based in one place, but a lot of times you're just working on things out of town, or you're going to LA to write for this TV show for a while until that's finished. So I think there is a certain nomadic element to being a writer that exists. But yeah, I like having a home base, whether that ends up being permanently in Denver or if I end up back in New York at some point. Yeah, I think I would like to have that home base, but with the freedom to travel to the places that I need to go to pursue my work. That's one of the things I really like about writing. I'm a pretty adventurous person and I love to travel. And I think it's fun to sort of see where you're gonna end up and where your writing is gonna take you.

[47:13] Jenny Stafford: That's one thing that I like about the arts in general.

[47:15] Jenny Stafford: It's like so much of the business world has gone digital, and so you can just kind of be in one place and take meetings or go here and there digitally.

[47:24] Jenny Stafford: But with the arts, you know, us actors, we have to travel to the theaters and the writers need to be in the room where it's happening.

[47:31] Jenny Stafford: So it's nice that theater remains this in-person and very community-oriented profession.

[47:39] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah. I mean, how is that for you as an actor? Because I think it's even more so true for actors that you get cast in a show and who knows where you are and for how long. And I know you're married. Like, how do you navigate all of that for yourself?

[47:51] Jenny Stafford: Well, I mean, it's one of those things like right now with the cruise ship, you know, being gone for this is an eight-month contract. So it's one of those things where I'm used to being gone like the Muni, it's like two and a half weeks. The show I did after that was a month run. So I'm used to shorter runs where if I leave town, then I'm back kind of before I know it. But you know, for a long run like this, where it's eight months, then again, that stability is nice. But at the same time, I really miss New York because New York is where, you know, it's where the magic happens. And as someone like yourself who travels back and forth, you know that New York is kind of the hub of where a lot of the writing is, it's a lot of where the shows are being cast from.

So it can get really difficult as far as being traveling. But I think getting back to what we were saying about having that support, you need people in your life, whether it's your family, whether it's a relationship you have that can understand and support during those times when you're away because they know that you're pursuing your passion. And it also helps when that passion pays the bills. And it's like, okay, you're gonna bring in some money, so go away for a time and you know, it helps us, you know, pay the bills. So I mean, it always helps when there's a financial reward, but I think even more than that, when, you know, when there's a sense that this is my calling, this is my purpose, and I'm now fulfilling that by going and doing this job, you know, whether it's on a cruise ship, whether it's in St. Louis, whether you are going to the other side of the coast or something, then it's important to have people supporting that.

[49:33] Jenny Stafford: Absolutely. And that was really well said, too, that they understand that it's your calling and that when you do this, you are the fullest version of who you feel you were meant to be, and you were filling up your soul by doing it.

[49:44] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah. I've thought about dabbling into writing. If I was to start, if I was to, you know, because I've had some ideas, stories bouncing in my head, what is the best way to begin that process? What are those first baby steps into writing?

[49:59] Jenny Stafford: It may sound so simple, but I think it is just finding a time to sit down and write. It's like the simplest, but it's also the hardest thing to do, I think. Just finding a time to sit down and write down the part that keeps reverberating in the front of your brain and just get it on paper. I saw a great quote once that you can edit a bad page, but you can't edit a blank page.

[50:20] Patrick Oliver Jones: Uh-huh.

[50:21] Jenny Stafford: So just sitting down and giving yourself the freedom to write the bad version of it, and then you have the time to go back and hone it and make it what you want it to be. But yeah, not just walking around and keeping it in your head, which I'm often guilty of doing.

[50:37] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah. And from what I hear is that it's not about that structure and make sure you're doing it right and make sure you have this program and that. It's like just write it out, just in paragraph form or however it needs to come out, and just get that story or that scene, that one little moment out and go from there.

[50:54] Jenny Stafford: Yeah. And especially I think a lot of the stuff that I saw in New York this summer, like the off-Broadway was booming in New York this summer. And the pieces that I loved the most were pieces that didn't really follow a specific formula or a specific way that you're supposed to write something. They were just writers who wrote what was personal to them and what they cared about and that translated.

[51:15] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, yeah. I think that have a story, sing a song, have a story, sing a song is kind of one way to do a musical. But if there are different ways to present that music, different ways to tell that story so it's not so linear or it's using more digital or whatever it's going to be, I think that's going to engage an audience even more because it's not the same old musical that they've been seeing.

[51:37] Jenny Stafford: Absolutely. And it pushes the art form forward, which is what we need if we want to keep it vital and vibrant and relevant.

[51:45] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah. Well, you're certainly doing your part in pushing it forward. So thank you so much for being on the podcast and sharing that.

[51:52] Jenny Stafford: Yeah, of course, thank you so much for having me. That's just delightful to talk to you always.

[51:57] Patrick Oliver Jones: I know, yeah, it's been about a year and a half. It was good to catch up again.

[52:07] Patrick Oliver Jones: In our conversation, one of the biggest things that stood out to me was the idea of preparation. And without that, we certainly won't get very far in this business. And it's not just about preparing yourself and focusing on the craft and making sure that you're ready when an opportunity comes along, but it's also all the groundwork that you prepared and laid before that opportunity ever comes along. Not only doing good work, doing consistent work, but making sure that those that you work with see that work ethic and see that drive and passion within you, so that when something comes up, just like it did for Jenny, someone may think of you and give you the opportunity of a lifetime. As Jenny mentioned, an overnight success is anything but overnight.

It's many nights, many days, many weeks and months that go into what looks like an overnight success. For more on Jenny Stafford, you can look in the show notes for ways to follow and keep up with her work. And there's also a link there to the Win Me website and ways you can support and contribute to the podcast. As always, I thank you for joining me and Jenny today. Don't miss a single episode by subscribing on Apple Podcast or your favorite podcast app. But most importantly, if you enjoy listening to these stories and interviews as much as I love being a part of them, then please share this podcast with those who you think could enjoy and benefit from these conversations. So let's get together again next week as we talk more about why I'll never make it.