(This transcript is automatically generated and may contain errors.)

Patrick Oliver Jones:

This past fall I got to see two of my favorite leading ladies on stage. The first was Christine Sherrill, who just like me, was making her Broadway debut in Mamma Mia. She and I had first worked together in the out of town tryout for First Wives Club back in 2015 that ran for about a month and a half in Chicago, but due to various factors, that show never ended up coming to New York. Nonetheless, Christine was so great in that show and she brought that same energy and vocal power to the role of Donna in Mamma Mia. As well. And the second leading lady I got to see was also someone I had worked with before in 42nd street at Goodspeed in Connecticut. Now, she wasn't making her Broadway debut, but she was playing a character for the first time, Roxie Hart, in the long running musical Chicago. Now she has about another month to go in this role and so to celebrate her fantastic performance in this show, I thought I would replay my conversation from 2022 with this dynamic leading lady.

Kate Baldwin:

Hi, my name is Kate Baldwin. I am originally from Evanston, Illinois, but also Milwaukee, Wisconsin. I now live in Maplewood, New Jersey after a 20 year stay in New York City. I am an actor, a singer, a fundraiser, a mother, a wife, a friend and I love tacos.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Now see, that's a woman after my own heart. As if there wasn't reason enough to love her. From her roles in hello Dolly, Finian's Rainbow, Big Fish, who doesn't love a good taco? But getting back to Theater in 42nd Street, Kate plays the veteran actress Dorothy Brock and we talk about this current production of 42nd street and why it means so much to us. Then we take a surprisingly candid and unvarnished look at her career and why she was told she'd probably never have one. In theater, we also talk about the many ways we performers often compare ourselves to others and how to handle those times when someone else gets the part over us.

Kate Baldwin:

Jealousy is interesting because we all get jealous. So denying that you don't get jealous, I call bullshit on that. I always like to pay attention to jealousy because that tells me what I really want.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Welcome and thank you for joining me for another episode of why I'll Never make it, an award winning top 25 theater podcast.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I'm your host Patrick Oliver Jones, an.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Actor and singer talking with fellow creatives each episode of personal struggles and professional hardships with lessons we can all learn from the website is why I'll nevermakeit.com where you can subscribe to bonus episodes and offer your own Financial support to the production of this podcast again. That's why I'll never make it. Dot com.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Welcome Kate Baldwin. It is a joy to have. We're already laughing. I love it. I love it. We've been talking already, but it's a joy to welcome you to the podcast.

Kate Baldwin:

I'm so happy to be doing this.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Now, you and I are, of course, sharing the stage here at Goodspeed at 42nd Street. So whether it's a classic show like 42nd street or newer works like you just did, Karate Kid musical, newer one like that at stages St. Louis, what is it that you look for? Like, what draws you to one show over another?

Kate Baldwin:

Well, the story, first of all, the script and the music, whether or not there's something fun for me to do in the show. And also with a new work like Karate Kid, like, how much I can contribute to it and how much I can be a part of its actual creation. And then, no surprise to you, my friend, it's the people involved. I want to be in the sandbox with the most delightful, creative, fun, perky people I can find. So whether that's doing something like 42nd street, which I already knew, Randy Skinner and Rob Berman when they approached me about doing this part, or, you know, a new work with a new composer and a new someone who's unfamiliar to me as a director, I want to find out who they are and what they're all about and what makes them tick. That's what keeps me coming back the more.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Now at this point, are you just approached, like, for 42nd street to just join, or do you still audition? Like, what is that process like?

Kate Baldwin:

No, I do some auditioning for this show. I was asked to join for Karate Kid. I was asked to join, but I auditioned for hello, Dolly. I definitely went in for that. And I've auditioned for shows since then that I didn't get. So, you know, I would say it's.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

About 50, 50 now with 42nd Street. You're playing the part of Dorothy Brock, a famous star of the stage making her comeback with the new musical. And now since you're playing an actress on stage, what parts of Dorothy Brock are you? What parts are not? Is there intermingling of the two?

Kate Baldwin:

Well, that's fascinating. I think about Dorothy Brock and I think about when Burt, played by the amazing Eclay Cornelius, and Maggie, played by the delightful Lisa. Howard and Max, who's playing Julian Marsh, are talking about the cast early on. And Julian's saying, well, that's Brock I'm worried about. She hasn't had a hit in 10 years. I think about how, like, my career has kind of. Yes, I've done, you know, six Broadway shows, but they've been all kind of spaced out. It's kind of like one every five years.

Kate Baldwin:

And then. And with the exception of hello, Dolly, I was in each one for approximately four months. So I've never really had a long sit down in a big hit show. And so I. That kind of vulnerability sort of plays into what. What I think about when I bring somebody like Dorothy on stage, someone who is deeply vulnerable. And in her case, it comes out as paranoia of, like, how is she? Is she gonna be scorned? Is she gonna be mistreated? Is she going to be shoved aside and somehow maligned while she's working on, you know, Pretty Lady, Me, Kate? I just feel, like, lucky to be in the room. And so I try so hard, as, you know, to, like, think of fun things to do, make sure everybody feels good about what they're doing and keeping.

Kate Baldwin:

And keeping it new. So I can relate to Dorothy's vulnerability. I think we all carry all of that as actors. I think every time you start something, you're worried about its outcome, excited about it, but also concerned, too.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, I think that that's something that, whether it's personal or professional, that all of us actors can relate to.

Kate Baldwin:

Yeah, I think so, too. And I think it's interesting because in our scenes, because you're playing Pat Denning, who is the true love of her life and the person that she's evidently, you know, I wanted to make it evident from the very beginning that they belong together. So I wanted her to kind of drop the facade of her grandeur. So sometimes, and I'm sure, you know, people like this, when they're feeling vulnerable or nervous about things, they kind of put on a grander state of being. And I think that's what Dorothy does. And sometimes I do that in my real life, too. But I wanted that to all fall away when she sees Pat and realizes that her true past has caught up with her, and she has to. And the decision about what to do in the future becomes more urgent.

Kate Baldwin:

You know, which way is she gonna go? Is she gonna go for her showbiz life and the fake relationship with Abner Dylan, or is she gonna follow her heart?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, it's interesting that Randy Skinner said that the Dorothy Pat relationship was the love story of 42nd street, which I hadn't thought of it that way until this production.

Kate Baldwin:

Yeah, right. You always think of Billy and Peggy because Billy comes on so strong at the beginning.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And then sometimes that Julian Marsh triangle sometimes thrown in there.

Kate Baldwin:

Right. And that is something that we have altered for this particular production to make it sort of more palatable for 2022.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Right. And less creepy director, which I think is a good thing.

Kate Baldwin:

Agreed.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Now, with 42nd street having just opened, you know, reviews are coming out, mostly good. They're talking about wonderful things. Do you have a policy when it comes to reviews of reading them or not?

Kate Baldwin:

Neither. I do not read reviews.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Why is your rule to not read them?

Kate Baldwin:

Because then all I'll do on stage is think about what the reviewer said, whether it was good or bad. You know, it doesn't matter if it was a criticism or whether it was praise. I'll just think, oh, I'm really good at this part, you know what I mean? Or I sucked right here. Let me see what I can do to change it. For me, every night, it's about taking the temperature of the audience and making sure that I'm connecting with the people on stage. Because every audience is different. And sometimes too. Like I remember a.

Kate Baldwin:

A quick story from hello, Dolly. That show five years ago on Broadway starred Bette Midler and David Hyde Pierce. And it had this deluxe production. No corner was cut, no expense was spared in terms of costumes and the design elements and the set and the orchestra and everything was just really first rate. And so they charged a first rate ticket too. So premium prices were through the roof for that show. And I'll never forget, we're standing there at curtain call and the curtain comes down and I'm two people away from bet and she sees a couple in the front row, younger couple, who were standing and applauding, but the look on their face was one of kind of disappointment and dismay. And she said the curtain hit the floor and she turned to me and Gavin and she said, I think the ticket prices are too high.

Kate Baldwin:

I think people are expecting me to shoot confetti out of my ass or something. You know what I mean? Like, they didn't think that they'd see a musical with a wooden train in it. You know what I mean? It wasn't to their expectations. And so it was a reminder for me that every audience has a different expectation. And an audience, too, is not a monolith, right? It's filled with different individuals who bring their own experiences to the material. Some people who may have seen 42nd street before, others who have no idea what it is, Other people who, you know, are seeing a musical for the very first time or People who have seen every incarnation of 42nd street ever done and are familiar with a movie and the novel and all those other source materials. So it really is just trying to have fun in the moment and be real in the moment and do what delights myself. And do what delights.

Kate Baldwin:

Hopefully bringing other people along with me, not at the expense of anyone else on stage, you know what I'm saying?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Of course.

Kate Baldwin:

But, like, you know.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

But there's something to be said for having fun in a role, and that fun is going to hopefully connect with an audience and then bring them into the show as well.

Kate Baldwin:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, let's get to your first story, and this first one is about your height. Now, you say you were never an ingenue, but rather you were stuck covering and understudying other actresses until you finally grew into your leading lady ness. And casting directors, artistic directors, teachers, all told you that you were too tall for a career in theater. Now, I'm wondering, outside of theater, had you ever been self conscious about your height?

Kate Baldwin:

I don't think so, no. I don't think anybody made me feel like I couldn't do something because I was too tall. No. Just on stage.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So what was it about being too tall that made you seem so uncastable to these people?

Kate Baldwin:

Well, when you're young on stage, youth equals short, and maturity equals tall. I'm sure you've understood this particular thing, right? So here I was in college and. And newly graduated from college. Tall. I have broad shoulders. I have a low speaking voice. I've read a book or two. I.

Kate Baldwin:

And I also had a little bit of, like, I don't know, I was a little salty. When I graduated from school, I thought I was smarter than everybody else. I didn't know what to do. So, you know, I projected a maturity that wasn't necessarily right for the roles that I wanted to audition for. You know, who would buy me as a scraggly, you know, awkward kid? I wasn't. I was, you know, sort of a leading lady waiting to come into her own. And actually, a casting director said, you just have to wait. You just have to wait, and you have to get ready in the time.

Kate Baldwin:

He's like, you're gonna hit it in about 10 years.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And so did that feel defeated? Did that feel like, ugh, what am.

Kate Baldwin:

I doing in the moment? Yes. But I thought, okay, I'm not interested really in playing ingenue roles anyway. Like, I'm going in for Belle in Beauty and the Beast, and I'm going in for you Know, I got two great understudy roles early on in my career. One, I understudied a fabulous actress. Both of them are fabulous actresses. But one, I watched her craft her role, and I watched her ask for specific things to be changed within the script or within the staging. We were working on a revival, so there was only so much leeway she had. But I watched her communicate with people and I watched her charm everyone.

Kate Baldwin:

And I watched her performance, which I thought was so wonderful. And I thought, huh, that's how you do it. And then after that, I understudied another actress who is equally as talented but had that paranoia. And so anytime anything got cut or changed or, you know, anything, she would react as though she had been slighted, she had been somehow diminished. So her defenses were up. And I watched how the room changed, the temperature in the room changed, and how the creative team kind of put up a little wall between themselves and her. And I thought, huh, that's how not to do it. So what I'll say about being too tall to play the roles that I was understudying, my youth did not align with the way I looked.

Kate Baldwin:

And what those roles required was that I got the benefit of being in the room and watching other people do the thing I wanted to eventually do. And I got to learn from them how to do it and. And maybe how not to do it. And that was incredibly helpful.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

We were even talking about this a couple of nights ago about there was a particular show where you got to sit in. In the audition. Yes. And so I imagine that was interesting, seeing the various actors and actresses that were coming through that were going to be in this show that you had already been cast in.

Kate Baldwin:

Yeah. And watching actors audition, because I know what it's like to be the auditioner. I don't know what it's like to watch actor after actor come in. Have you ever been a reader or been in that situation?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And it's fascinating to watch. And you see those nerves come through you that hold the script in front of their face and they're shaking. And then you see the people that put that script down and they're just like free birds just flying all over the room. And it's wonderful to see.

Kate Baldwin:

Yeah. And you see people get in their own way all the time. It was very informative for me because I think we all want to go in and be perfect and give an opening night performance. And what I learned through watching auditions was that even if you make a mistake or something doesn't go as planned, it's the way you recover. That tells a creative team more about how you'll handle a rehearsal process and a performance than anything else.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, as you mentioned, I am someone who's tall. Yes. And I know that my height has been an issue for some directors as well. But I would say in general, you know, if I didn't book a show that I was auditioning for, I would think of other reasons why I didn't book it. You know, my height was never an issue. When you were auditioning and didn't book something. Was height something you thought of or was it other things?

Kate Baldwin:

I was told, you know, I didn't get the revival of follies in 2000. Whatever it was. The Black Danner one because I was too darn tall. Yeah. I mean, they tell you things all. Oh, here's one, though. I booked a replacement in Wonderful Town. So Wonderful Town happened on Broadway in 2004, maybe with the wonderful Donna Murphy playing Ruth Sherwood.

Kate Baldwin:

And Jennifer Westfeldt played her sister Eileen. And my friend Nancy Anderson played their wacky next door neighbor, Helen Wade. So Nancy was gonna leave the show. I had seen it. I was like, well, that'd be really fun to do. So to play Helen and then to cover the two ladies, that sounded great. And so I went in and I had one of those auditions where you're just flying, where you're just like, I know this. This is crazy.

Kate Baldwin:

You know? And I did it and heard the next day that I got booked the part. This was great. And then maybe a week later or something, I went on a commercial audition and I ran into a friend, and we were at this commercial audition. Hey, what are you doing? What's up? How you doing? Oh, I just booked Wonderful Town. And she goes, huh, that's weird. They told me I was too tall. And we are eye to eye, me and my friend. We are like the same type, you know, because we're in for a commercial and they go for the same.

Kate Baldwin:

And I just looked at her. I was like, wow. They'll say anything to, like, give you a reason as to why you didn't get it. When sometimes the reason is just, it's not you today, it's not yours. Today has nothing to do with your talent. Has nothing to do with who you are as a human. And it really isn't about how tall you are. Right.

Kate Baldwin:

It's just about it wasn't you today.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Right, Right. And it could be who you're up against. I think me being tall helped the fact, you know, since You're a taller woman that our height difference was. Looks good on stage.

Kate Baldwin:

Oh, thank God for you.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Right, so. So in this case, my height was a benefit, you know, since they'd already cast you.

Kate Baldwin:

Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Whereas in other times I've been cast because the other girl was 5:2, and they thought that would be funny.

Kate Baldwin:

How did that work?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

It actually worked well. It was for Grease.

Kate Baldwin:

Oh, that's good.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So we were like, you know, a foot and a half apart, but it was. It made it a funny pairing.

Kate Baldwin:

Cheyenne would talk about that, too. Cheyenne Jackson would talk about. Early on in his career, he played Tony in West side Story, and he said his Maria was, like, 4 foot 11. He said he literally would, like, pick her up and kiss her and then put her down again. You know what I mean? And that was unintentionally funny, but funny.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, this gets us into story number two, where you like to play casting director at your auditions. That's so right. Yes. And what you do is you say that you look around the room and you pick the people who will do a better job than you.

Kate Baldwin:

Not a better job, but would be a better fit for the role.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

A better fit.

Kate Baldwin:

Well, I'd cast her in this. Yeah, she'd be great in this.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

What is it you're looking for? What do you see that's a better fit?

Kate Baldwin:

Well, I have an idea maybe of my version of the role, but I look around and I see other people and I go, oh, well, she clearly has a moment, a clearer idea, or she looks like she knows what she's doing better than I do. It's typecast.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

You're typecasting.

Kate Baldwin:

I kind of am. How dare you? I know. It's the worst. Listen, I went in for hello, Dolly, and I was like, they're never gonna pick me for this. I'm too old. I'm too tall. I'm too this. I'm too that.

Kate Baldwin:

I just. And I looked around the room, I was like, oh, I'd totally pick her instead of me. They were all younger than me. I was like, oh, they're gonna pick somebody younger. I got it. Okay. You know, they're doing me a favor by calling me in. And in that regard, in that particular sense, it took any sort of stress or pressure right off because I was like, I'll just go in and I'll just, You know, I'll do it.

Kate Baldwin:

I've played Irene Molloy twice before. I know this role in my bones. I don't need the script. You know, I'll just go in and do my version. And if they like it, they like it. No, but, you know, I will not have wasted this afternoon, which to me.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Is the best mental space to be in. When you go into an audition, it's like, whatever happens, happens. I'm just gonna have fun in the room.

Kate Baldwin:

Yeah, exactly, because she's gonna get it, so I have no shot anyway, so no big deal. So go in.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And that attitude, that fun, that playfulness is obviously what got you the role.

Kate Baldwin:

I think that's right, because they called the same day. They didn't even have callbacks. Yeah. I got on the train and went home, and then my phone rang. I was picking up the dry cleaning. They're like, hey, do you want to play Irene Milloy? I was like, yeah, sounds great.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Now, have you ever thought of going into casting yourself?

Kate Baldwin:

No. I would hate to be the middleman. I think that sounds like a really terrible job, don't you?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, yeah, because you scare actors in the way that they're nervous around you, but yet you really have no power. Ultimately, at the end of the day, the director, the producers, they're the ones who really call the shots.

Kate Baldwin:

They're the ones who make the decisions. But you're a gatekeeper. That casting director is really a gatekeeper, but that's a person. I feel like a casting director can get yelled at from both sides. They get yelled at from the producers. Why aren't you bringing me the people I want to see? And they get yelled at from the agents. Why aren't you seeing my clients? So, like, I would not want to be that person who gets yelled at.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

It takes a special kind of person.

Kate Baldwin:

It does. It does. God bless them.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Now, also, when you say when it comes to auditions that you want everyone to like you, which is, you know, I think it's what we all do in auditions. But you want the people in the holding room like you, and so you start getting all chatty.

Kate Baldwin:

I do.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And you start, you know, talking with them, and you say that you get distracted, you know, rather than sticking to your guns, to your work, to your prep. And you're far more interested in what they're doing than what you need to be doing going into the audition. What is it about the holding room that kind of distracts you so much?

Kate Baldwin:

I think people are fascinating, and I think actors are the most fascinating people of all. Really, Honestly, truly. And, you know, I've been in New York for 25, been a professional actor for 25 years, so chances are, in that holding room, I know at least two or three or four people. Like I'm thinking of an audition I went on last summer where I just was Chatty Cathy in the audition room the entire time and didn't get a call back because I was too like invested in like, how was your summer? What are your kids doing? Oh my God, where are you living now?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So you found that once you went into the audition room you weren't present.

Kate Baldwin:

I don't know that I'm not gonna blame. Cause I was very well prepared for that. I think I just ultimately was the wrong person for it. But I value community. I value our community so much. And so I kind of err on the side of going overboard of trying to make everybody feel welcome. I think the opposite. If I were to sit in a chair by myself and like deny who else was in the space with me, would stress me out.

Kate Baldwin:

If like my friend is over there and she's getting ready for the role and I'm also getting ready for the role. To not acknowledge that she's there and to talk to her and ask her how she is would make my nerves through the roof.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

But I know those actors. I've had friends who like will kind of give a glance, maybe a head nod and then they go right back to their script because I know that they're focused. So I mean there is certainly that time to be focused. I generally find for myself it's the more serious roles or maybe one that I don't know as well that I have to focus. But fun, light hearted roles I might be bouncing around the, talking to people, I'm the opposite.

Kate Baldwin:

I have to get it out. I have to get it out and I have to like acknowledge it and get it and deal with it, deal with it in a nice way, in a good way before I can then focus on what I need to do in the room. And once I get in that room, it's bam. I'm into the business now.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I do wonder though, whenever you're talking, especially whenever it's like friends in some way, does it calm you down to have that connection and that personal touch with people in the holding room before you get in?

Kate Baldwin:

Yeah. Yes. Because guess what? Whether or not either of us gets this job, we're still going to be friends, you know what I mean? They can't take that away from you. I think one of the most powerful things somebody ever said to me was what's the worst thing that could happen at an audition? They say no big deal, like that's not the worst thing that's going to.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Happen most of the time.

Kate Baldwin:

Yeah. And you still have, you know, you still have your family, you still have a place to live. You still have, you know, ice cream in the freezer. You still have your community and your friends. Like, nothing has been taken away from you. An opportunity came and went, but you're not diminished in any way. Like, you're still you. So that was a powerful thing to learn early on and to really absorb.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Is jealousy ever an issue for you as far as friends getting it or not getting it over you?

Kate Baldwin:

Jealousy is interesting because we all get jealous. So denying that you don't get jealous, I call bullshit on that, people. You go, oh, I wanted that, or that seemed like such a cool project. I always like to pay attention to jealousy because that tells me what I really want. Because I'm pretty good at convincing myself, oh, this was the right choice. And that's what we do as humans, right? Like, oh, well, this happened. You know, that whole everything happens for a reason kind of mentality that some people have. I think sometimes if you go, ooh, I would have liked to have done that, or, what's she doing? Ooh, I wanted to do that.

Kate Baldwin:

I have to look at that and go, what is that leading me towards? What does that tell me about where I need to go next and what I need to focus on and what I'm interested in? I think jealousy is another way to figure out what you're really interested in. Does that make sense?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I think it does, because I know earlier in my career, I was auditioning for everything. If they needed a male, I was there. You know, it was that kind of thing. Whereas as I started to get older, as I started to do more shows, I started to find out, oh, I really like this, or I gravitate toward these characters, or this is my typecasting. And so I started to see a pattern, not only with casting directors, but then to myself. What I liked, what I gravitated towards. So then as parts fell away that I stopped auditioning for, I wasn't as jealous when other people were getting them, because it's like, that's not me, you know? But then the parts that did mean something to me, the shows that I really loved, you know, I started to see a passion and drive to get those. So I think you're right that jealousy is.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

It's a natural inclination, but it's also an indicator as to a direction to go.

Kate Baldwin:

Right? And sometimes you don't know what's for you until you're in that audition room. Have you ever had the experience where you're there and you're like, oh, this job is not for me. Like, in the middle of the audition, that has happened.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Oh, yeah, yeah. And not just because I can see, you know, their eyes roll in the back of their head as I'm auditioning. No, no, no, no. But as I'm doing this role, I'm like, this song just. It doesn't fit. Right. Like, I can't. And then the director gives you feedback or a little tweak, and then you do it, and it's like, oh, I'm just not either connecting with this role or sometimes it's a chemistry with the director.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

You just don't. You're not on the same page. So, yes, I've definitely felt that. Yeah. And then conversely, there are those where in the room, it takes on a new. And you're like, oh, I really like this. And that happened to me when I was doing a nymph, and it was for Swiss Family Robinson, for this French pirate. And there was a certain.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I mean, it's a funny role, so I could have fun with it. But what I had prepared was not even close to what I did in the audition room. That kind of went to another level, you know, and you start to really feel a part of that character and hopefully a part of the show.

Kate Baldwin:

That's so magical when that happens. Isn't that magical for you?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

What have you found in the audition room has been that spark that's brought you to another level or sent you into a place that you didn't know that you could do.

Kate Baldwin:

It won't surprise you that in every instance, I try to find humor, whether it's deadly serious or a role that everybody thinks that they already know. Because I do a lot of revivals. I've done a lot of regional work, and I've played a lot of leading ladies in Angenues. I always try to make them laugh because part of laughter is surprise. So that means I'm doing something unexpected. So I love, in the audition room, bringing props. I love to use physical humor. I love to use the reader or the accompanist in a specific way.

Kate Baldwin:

Yeah, I go for the humor of it always. And if I can make them laugh, that means I've succeeded. There have been plenty of times where that just doesn't happen, but I take a big. I try to take a big swing, you know, and sometimes it's a swing and a miss with. The most frustrating auditions are when I. Are when I can't take a bit, when I Don't allow myself. Or I think, oh, that's too much. Or I can't do.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. When we hold ourselves back.

Kate Baldwin:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And those just feel dreadful. That just feels awful.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

When I bring a guest onto the podcast, I not only ask them for.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

For their three stories, I also asked.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Them five final questions. These are topics that may be briefly mentioned here in these interviews, but in the written form, guests are allowed to go into a bit more detail. And so almost every guest this season, Kate included, has shared their own insights and experiences when it comes to lessons learned, best advice given, and, of course, what making it means to them.

Kate Baldwin:

I think the definition of success is having choices, choosing what your next project will be and choosing it for reasons that make sense to you and to your family. You know what best benefits. And also success is also rolling with whatever comes at you and making the best decision you can in the moment given the information you have. My dad always says it's you either make the right decision or you make the decision right. How can I fix whatever is falling apart? How can I switch course here and make the next best choice, even if it means going like, whoops, I screwed that up, you know, so how can I save. It's the same thing you do in the kitchen, right? If you burn the dinner, how can I save this? What can I do to make this.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Or in the audition room, you know, you make a mistake, you keep going.

Kate Baldwin:

And that tells you more about a person than anything, right? If we were perfect all the time, how boring would that be?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Boring. And you are not boring at all.

Kate Baldwin:

Are you trying to say I make lots of, lots of mistakes?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Check out those final five questions on the Win Me blog. You'll find the link to Kate's answers in the show notes.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, this leads us into story number three, which is this deep seated and pesky belief you have that performing a player musical eight times a week, it just isn't enough, you know, because it's not saving lives. You're not, you're not helping the planet. You're not feeding people who are hungry. So it sounds like that you're asking yourself, you know, what is it all for? What exactly is the point of all this singing and dancing? Yeah, obviously you find enjoyment in performing, but there's a part where you see it as maybe less than other jobs, of course.

Kate Baldwin:

Yeah, I think so. Because look at the world around us. And as I get older, I think about what is the legacy one leaves behind? What can I do to make the world a little bit better than How I left it. And I don't know if that's just being in my mid to late 40s. I don't know if that's being a mom. I don't know if that's coming through a pandemic and a really rocky political climate. But those are all on my mind often. And they weren't, you know, 25 years ago when I was just starting out.

Kate Baldwin:

When you're young, you're just like, me, me, me, all the time. What can I do? What about me? And now it's more about, like, what am I doing for them, for you, for us? What version of service can I provide? And is this service is doing eight shows a week enough? And is it helping? And I vacillate. There are days when I'm like, yes, people need to laugh. They need to feel. I need to lighten their load. And that's my job. I would talk to. Okay, so during hello, Dolly, Victor Garber played oh, God, Mr.

Kate Baldwin:

Van der Gelder. He took over for David, and he and I shared a hallway. And he would come in and he would lie down on my chaise. I had a chaise in my dressing room. And he would do oh, Woe is Me. And I love Victor because even when he's doing oh, Woe Is Me, he's hysterically funny. And he was like, oh, God, Kate, how are we going to do a musical today? You know, there are children dying. You know, there are people starving.

Kate Baldwin:

You know, there are people, you know. And he would. He would have the weight of the world on his shoulders. And it was my job to say, victor, there are people in that audience who have paid upwards of $250 so that you bring them some joy, you bring them some laughter, you take them away from the world for a minute. We're doing some hello, Dolly is a charm ball. You know what I mean? Like, it's just a big old love bomb. So that's what they want, and that's what we're gonna do. And sometimes I have to give myself that talk because sometimes I'm like, oh, God, why do we work so hard? And why do we put ourselves through this? And it's not really putting food on the table for anybody, and it's not really giving anybod a safe place to live.

Kate Baldwin:

And those things are needed, too. So, yeah, I wrestle with that often.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So this attitude, this perspective, does it influence the kind of shows you go for?

Kate Baldwin:

No, no. It's so funny because whenever I'm doing, like, a comedy, I really want to Do a serious drama, you know what I mean? Or like, whenever I'm doing a soprano role, I want to be a belter. Or whenever I'm doing a belter role, I want to be a soprano. So you always want the opposite of what, what you're up to? Don't you feel that?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Oh, yes. Yeah. Exactly. When the role's so big that you're on stage every minute, you're like, God, I just. I just want to, like, have a 15 minute break, you know? Exactly. Can I have the little role again?

Kate Baldwin:

Exactly, exactly.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And then when you're a little role, then it's like, oh, my gosh, I just want five more scenes, please.

Kate Baldwin:

Or when you're doing something that's particularly heavy. Like, my friends who did dear Evan Hansen for a long time said the minute they would get off stage after a particularly, like, emotional heavy scene, they'd, like, be doing goofy dances and, like, trying to crack each other up, you know? And conversely, sometimes when you're doing a light comedy on stage, you're like, really? But I feel like crying most of the time because I'm paying attention. I'm aware of what's happening in the world. And how can you be a good artist without being aware of the world? You have to take it all in, but you have to also be able to figure out how to not let things get to you in a sense that it makes you unable to do what you're supposed to do and what you ultimately want to do.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well. Right. I think that balanced seesaw perspective is good, so that when one is up, you realize the other has to come up too. And it's a balancing act of these different emotions and perspectives and feelings when it comes to playing a role, but also what the audience is getting too. Yeah.

Kate Baldwin:

And also the sort of, like, external nature of what we're doing. I was trying to talk to, with one of my dearest friends right now is having a really hard time on tour because there's so much attention coming at him as part of a national tour that is a giant big show and with a lot of press and a lot of just attention that he wasn't necessarily used to. And he can fake it. He can go along with the interviews, he can go along with the extroverted. Kind of like, yes, I'll sign your program at the stage door. But that takes a toll on him. And he's like, why do I feel so crappy every day? Why is it so hard every day? I was like, yeah, it is hard to put yourself out there and receive that kind of attention that. That feels huge in the moment, but isn't really.

Kate Baldwin:

Doesn't really have the same meaning that a real personal relationship would have. You know what I'm saying? Like, it feels more impersonal than the personal relationship that actually feeds you and makes you.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Which is so interesting because from the outside, it looks so glamorous. It looks so busy, and you're on top of the world and you're everything.

Kate Baldwin:

It can leave you so mixed up inside and leave you so feeling so empty, you feel your emptiness even more. Yeah, it's tough. It's really tough. And this is his first bout with it. And so I was like, I've been through this before. Let me hold your hand now. Yeah, it's gonna be okay.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, you have been nominated for many awards, you know, from Tony Award. Well, I'm just saying, you've been there. You've done the Tony Awards, the drama desk, outer critics. I mean, you know, you've had all these award nominations. Haven't won one yet, unfortunately.

Kate Baldwin:

I wish listener, you could see the pity in his eyes. So much the caring.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

But I mean, so with this, like, you know, worldly perspective, then do these awards really mean that much?

Kate Baldwin:

Well, you know what an award means different things at different times in your life and different moments in your career. An award right now at my advanced age is not going to change my life. It really isn't. An award would only be like an ornament on the Christmas tree. It would be like an acknowledgement of like, hey, Kate, you did a good job. But in many respects, the nomination is that also is also the industry, the community, the people who I respect and love and want to make stuff with saying, hey, we like making stuff with you, too. That's what it feels like to me. So it just.

Kate Baldwin:

It feels like a nice acknowledgment, handshake, you know, a hug in that regard. But I've won one award. In Chicago, there is a group called the Sarah Siddons Society.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

What is Sarah Siddons?

Kate Baldwin:

Right. Sarah Siddons was a famous actress, and she is referred to in All About Eve. Do you know that movie All About Eve? There was a fake award called the Sarah Siddons Award in that movie. So the Chicago theater supporters community decided to create a real Sarah Siddons Award. So along with the award, each year, there are scholarships given out to Chicago area college students who go to Northwestern, DePaul, Columbia and Roosevelt. And so it is a scholarship program. And then each year they have a Big gala dinner and they invite somebody to, quote, unquote, win their award. It was Christine.

Kate Baldwin:

Never saw last year. I've sung at it many times because they've honored my friends Brian d' Arcy James and Sutton Foster and all this kind of stuff. And then they gave it to me one year.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So it's like an honorary award, so to speak.

Kate Baldwin:

Yeah. There's no competition. It's just a group of people saying, we want to have a fancy dinner. Who should we invite? Who's good at talking? Ding, ding, ding.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

You're a talker.

Kate Baldwin:

Yeah. And then I went up on the words to my song during my awards acceptance performance.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

It was great showing why you were deserving of that award. But as far as your competitive awards.

Kate Baldwin:

I haven't won a damn thing. Always the nominee. But you know what? Happy to be there. Happy to be invited to the nominee. Just can't win a damn thing.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Right? Always the nominee, never the winner.

Kate Baldwin:

Correct. It fits with your M.O. for this thing.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

This is what I'm saying.

Kate Baldwin:

Oh, God. But I want to tell you a funny story. Graham and I, my husband Graham and I went to the Tony Awards in 2017 because that was the hello Dolly year. And my son Colin was 5 years old at that point. And so he stayed home with the babysitter. He wasn't going to come with us to the Tony Awards, but we said, hey, Mom's category will come on. I'll give you a sign when they put the camera on me and dad, and you'll see us on tv and we'll give you a little sign so you'll know that we're thinking of you. So unfortunately, my category didn't come up until after his bedtime.

Kate Baldwin:

His bedtime was 9 o', clock, but we had DVRed the Tony Awards. And so the next day when I came to pick him up from school, I asked him, you know, said, how are you doing and what do you want to do? And he said, well, I want to watch the rest of the Tony Awards with you. And I was like, oh, okay. Well, you know, sure, of course we can. So we get to that part. He thought Kevin Spacey was hilarious. By the way, as the host of the Tony Awards, he was a good host.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Despite all the shitty things he's done, he was a good host.

Kate Baldwin:

Yeah, we haven't. We haven't really told him the, you know, finale to that story yet, but we got to my category. Graham and I did our fun little, like, fist bump, you know, for. For our son and everything. And so I went to go turn it. I was like, there it is. There's the little sign for you. And I went to go turn it off.

Kate Baldwin:

He goes, no, no, no, wait. I want to see how it ends. Like, what, what happens? And they said, and the Tony Award goes to Rachel Bay Jones. And Colin's face fell. It had not occurred to me that he didn't know that I didn't win and that his expectation was so. He was like, what? And he started tearing the couch apart. He started like tearing the cushions off the couch. And he goes.

Kate Baldwin:

He was like, wait, I hate the Tony Awards. I ha. The do you started doing that?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Had he seen you in hello Dolly?

Kate Baldwin:

Yeah, I think by that point he had seen me in hello Dolly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But for him it's not a big deal for like watching mom on stage is like, really not a big deal.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

But he just assumed mom's gonna win.

Kate Baldwin:

Yeah, of course. Yeah. Why would. Why else would we take a night away from him if. If it wasn't something really important?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Right.

Kate Baldwin:

You know, something like that? So we had to turn off the TV and I had to have a good talk with him about. It's not about winning and losing. It's about showing up and doing your best, your very best. And it's about, you know, being part of a group, a part of a community and part of a celebration because the whole night is a celebration. So we have to talk about that. But it's really fun now that he's 11 to remind him of that moment and him going, yeah, yeah. He really has no memory of it. But what he does have a memory of is the Rockettes.

Kate Baldwin:

So the Rockettes were on that night too. And I just remember him looking at the Rockettes being like, like, huh? Okay, got it.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So, yeah.

Kate Baldwin:

Oh my goodness, I hate the Tony Awards. That's a fun. That's. That's a catchphrase in my house.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

We don't like them. We don't like them at all. Funny. Well, I would imagine though that with this idea of there are more important things in life to do than, you know, get up and sing and dance, that you get maybe antsy or bored with doing the same show over and over again.

Kate Baldwin:

I do. Yeah. So I do too much during the day. I do lots of other projects during the day, so. Well, right now I'm planning a concert in December. My friend Georgia Stitt and I have co created or are in the midst of co creating a concert that features the women composers and lyricists from Broadway. And we'll do five performances at the 92nd Street Y. So my days are spent talking to visual artists, talking to the line producers, getting my cast together.

Kate Baldwin:

I have five singers. I'm one of them. And then picking material to work on and what stories we're going to tell. I just, I love making stuff. So that pandemic was really hard for me because to not have a creative outlet, to not have people to make stuff with, was really, really, really, really hard.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, and Georgia Stitt is a wonderful person to work with. I had her on the podcast and she talked about Maestra and the wonderful things that that organization is doing in uplifting women musicians and composers and the like. So it's a wonderful thing that she does. And so I'm glad that the two of you, you've worked together before.

Kate Baldwin:

Oh, my gosh. Georgia is my work wife for almost 19 years now. So I've sung on her albums. She has written specialty material for me. She is my music director and my accompanist. Whenever I do concert work, she is my person who comes along with me and I do her songs in my shows. And then she arranges when I like, you know, have a new song, I'm like, will you do arrangement of? And she does. And she's one of my best friends and one of the smartest people, most creative people you'll ever meet.

Kate Baldwin:

And if I ever feel like I'm overwhelmed and over programmed during the day, I just think, oh, Georgia's doing where? Every one thing that I'm doing, Georgia's doing five. She's unbelievable.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

She never stops. I remember whenever we sat down, I mean, she had to kind of place it not just between her work, but also then she has kids and then with Jason. And so just, just trying to schedule a moment in her life is really tough. And so I can only imagine how busy she stays. I mean, we're on a vacation compared to her most days.

Kate Baldwin:

100%. Yeah, I know. And I think to myself, well, I really could rest during the day and really, you know, like, save all my energy for the show at night. But I think part of what I can bring on stage each night is fueled by the things that I get to do during the day. So it is always about finding a balance.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And I imagine since COVID you know, when we were all shut out of anything creative, you've had a renewed sense of staying busy and wanting to do more things.

Kate Baldwin:

Yeah, I had two projects during the pandemic. One was joining Georgia's organization. Her not for profit. That's called Maestra. If you go to maestramusic.org I directed Maestra's Virtual Spring Fundraiser. And so that was in 2020, and I gathered everyone and wrote the Virtual Spring Fundraiser. Obviously not alone. Obviously with a lot of help from a digital company called Broadway Unlocked and Jessica Ryan and Julianne Merrill was our music director.

Kate Baldwin:

And we had so many wonderful collaborators. Heather Gershonowitz filmed and cut together so many wonderful videos for us. And then we did a version, a hybrid version, last year in 2021, where we had a live venue and we also streamed it at the same time. And now we're in the throes of planning for Amplify 2023. So I'm directing things, I guess. Ish.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And how does that feel?

Kate Baldwin:

Fun. It's fun to be in charge. You know, it's nice to say you're going to sing this song and I'm going to do this and you're going to do that, and this is what it should look like. And yeah, it's fun to make decisions that way and to impart some knowledge and to share what I know to other artists and also hear from them.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And we talked about your marriage and being a mother. I assume that that's also given you a different perspective when it comes to not only your life, but your career as well.

Kate Baldwin:

Oh, yeah, absolutely. What jobs will you take and what jobs won't you take and how that all fits into your family life? My husband is incredibly thoughtful and communicative, and we work as a team to make decisions about what kind of work makes sense for us in the moment. And we always revisit those conversations. And thankfully, we can work it out together. I know it's not always easy for two artists to live together. You know, when one person is involved with a project, that kind of means the other person needs to be the primary parent and take care of the home front. And that I'm fortunate to have a husband who will do that for me at this moment. And then that will flip.

Kate Baldwin:

On November 7th, he'll go into rehearsal for something and I'll have to be the primary parent at that point. But that's the deal you make, right? You know, he would do it for me, so I. I will do it for him.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Thank you so much for joining why I'll Never Make It. And don't forget, you can become a subscriber and get bonus conversations by going to why I'll never make it.com and click subscribe. Or just look for the link in the show Notes. Be sure to join me next time. Time as we talk more about why I'll never make it.