(This episode was automatically transcribed into digital text, so some errors may present.)

Patrick Oliver Jones:

When I first moved to New York City, my life and daily routine were much different than they are now. Back then, I was waking up early, going to several auditions every week, sometimes even 2 or 3 a day, was also seeing 4 or 5 shows every month, from Broadway and Off-Broadway to concerts and cabarets. I was completely immersed in the New York theater scene with the goal of one day being on the Broadway stage. After more than 10 years, though, of steady work outside the city in tours and regional shows, on cruise ships, and even TV commercials, I began to wonder if and when Broadway was ever going to happen for me. Eventually, I shifted my focus to the work itself. and my own fulfillment rather than any lofty goal of Broadway. But then, after 17 years of living here, I finally made my Broadway debut at the Palace Theatre. But my guest today had a very different path to his debut and a much quicker one.

Kevin Munhall:

Hi, my name's Kevin Munhall. I grew up kind of all over the place, but mostly in Wichita, Kansas. And I now live in upstate New York in the Catskill Mountains. I am an actor, I'm a dancer, a singer, and now an educator teaching people how to deal with stress and anxiety and how to build confidence.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Kevin made his Broadway debut in Anything Goes at the tender age of 22, after just 6 weeks of being in New York City. But then it would be almost 5 years till his second Broadway show. And then later on, there was an injury which forced him to reconsider his own hopes and aspirations. And discover what he really wanted. So he took a break from stage work for several years, only returning to the stage in Damn Yankees just last year. During his time away, he trained as an Alexander Technique teacher and began helping performers and even the muggles in the corporate world to manage stress, anxiety, and burnout. In our conversation, Kevin shares how that dream debut left him exhausted and even convinced him something was wrong with him. We talk about the shoulder injury that eventually led him to leave the Dirty Dancing tour.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And we discuss what anxiety and stress do to our physical and mental health and how often the goals we chase are not the things that will ultimately fulfill our lives or careers. I'm Patrick Oliver Jones, and you're listening to Why I'll Never Make It.

Kevin Munhall:

Then because I was talented and had other skills, everyone was like, okay, so great, now you can be— now you can play this role, now you can audition for this play, now you can go out for pilot season and do all this TV. And I just said yes, like, of course, these are great opportunities, of course I want to Be a TV star. And I never stopped to think or even had a moment to go like, do you want to do television?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, welcome, Kevin. It is so good to meet you. So good to have you on the podcast. I really appreciate you coming on to talk today.

Kevin Munhall:

Absolutely. Thank you for having me.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Now, one thing I love about your kind of origin story, your introduction to the performing, is that you're about 3 or 4 years old and you saw this steel drum concert. That must have been very exciting because steel drums are very different from regular drums. That must have been— must have been something new for you.

Kevin Munhall:

Yeah. I mean, that was the only thing I could think. It's funny that you even asking me what was the first performance-related thing that I experienced. I had I couldn't even think of what it would be. And that's the first thing that popped into my mind. So it must have made a really big impact on me. Who knows how big of a deal it was? It probably was like a farmer's market or something. But to me, I was like, that is very cool.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, yeah, it's really cool whenever you just kind of happen upon something like that. You know, you know, I've, I've been at festivals where it's, it's this one thing, but then all of a sudden, oh, they have a stage. Oh, there's people. And, you know, it could be just some random Joe Schmo from the you know, from the community or whatever. But yeah, just seeing these things that you don't expect in a place. So obviously, yeah, it must have stuck out to you.

Kevin Munhall:

Yeah. And honestly, I was so into sports at that point in my life— soccer, baseball, anything other than the performing arts. So it also was probably the only way to actually get me to engage with it is to surprise me with just showing up and doing the thing.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, I mean, speaking of surprises, that's kind of how you got into performing to begin with. You had been playing soccer, and this is— you're now in high school. You've been, as you said, been in sports, you're playing soccer, but then you get, you get an injury. You hurt your knee, right?

Kevin Munhall:

Yeah, someone slid into me while playing soccer and I tore my MCL and it was my freshman year and I didn't really, you know, I just started school that fall. I didn't know that many people. And thankfully, there was an incredible choir teacher in Wichita, Kansas named Doug Reiney who, you know, he saw me on crutches and he's like, hey, we're doing a musical. Do you want to, you want to be in it with us?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Okay, now this was my question because it's like, okay, you've injured your knee and the musical he's talking about is Footloose. Not exactly, you know, just a walk around and sing show. You got to dance.

Kevin Munhall:

Yes. But, you know, at that point in the process, I had healed a bit. I was in recovery. My— I couldn't— I couldn't, like, sprint and do the athleticism that required to play soccer. But it was enough for me to, you know, stand in the back and sing and doing a— do a pose here and there. And I fell in love. I'd never experienced anything like it. And more than anything, it was really the community involved in it.

Kevin Munhall:

Because I loved sports, but I never quite fit in with that group of people. They weren't my people. And it was like from moment one walking into this, it was just like a whole group of like 30 people who were like, hey, if you're doing this thing, you're part of us. And I was like, this is awesome.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, now it's interesting that you say that because being in a team sport, it's all about being together, supporting each other. If someone falls down, whether literally or metaphorically, then, then the team supports you, picks you back, you know. So it's all about that team camaraderie. But you, you didn't seem to feel that, or just it wasn't the same?

Kevin Munhall:

I mean, in an ideal situation, that would be true. But, you know, with middle, middle school and early high school boys, that's definitely not my experience. Everyone is out for themselves, and everyone was just trying to, you know, make fun of each other and you know, do the cool kid things that I wasn't really a part of.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Oh, so interesting. Yeah, because soccer was really the sport that I played throughout elementary into middle school as well. And I mean, my experience with that fortunately was a bit more team camaraderie. And, you know, we had a good coach who was all about the team supporting each other. And, and also it helped that I, you know, I'm not tooting my own horn, but I was good at it. And, you know, and so I would play goalie, but then I would also be forward if we needed to score, or I would come back to defense and play fullback. So, I mean, I was kind of anywhere and everywhere that the coach needed me. Were you a versatile utility player like that as well?

Kevin Munhall:

Yes, when I was younger, but then I became a goalie as well. And so that's what I was playing in high school. And I was also a freshman on the varsity team. So it was also, I think there's a bit of a difference for me being 15 and everyone else being, you know, 18. And We had different ideas of what I was ready for.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So Footloose. So like you say, the community, the welcoming was a big part of it, but what about the actual performing itself? How did you maneuver through that?

Kevin Munhall:

Yeah, I mean, I suppose my first love was singing with that. I really enjoyed it. I had no idea I could sing honestly until that moment. It truly, I remember this moment so well that the, choir teacher was, like, auditioning people for different choirs, and he needed a few more boys to be in, like, the Madrigal Choir, which is mostly juniors and seniors. And I was a freshman, and I went in, and he was, like, you know, doing scales and warming me up and all this stuff as, like, kind of the audition for the thing. And I remember he got to the end, and he's like, this is great. You can do it. And I remember being like, can you tell me if I'm a baritone? What am I? I'd, like— I had never— I thought it was, like, just something that I could, like, find out what my voice was.

Kevin Munhall:

So that's how new to the whole experience I was. And I, you know, I loved— I loved singing. It felt good. I honestly, if I connect that back to my childhood, my mom actually was like, you were always singing when you were a little kid. Like, she would know— she would— she always told the story of how she could tell if I was, like, taking too long in the bathroom or something at, like, a public— a public place. She would always, like, ask someone coming out. She's like, is there a little boy singing in there? And they'd be like, yep. And she's like, okay, he's fine.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

That's so funny. Yeah. So yeah, mom knew.

Kevin Munhall:

Mom knew. I didn't know, but mom knew.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, let's get into this first story. And so we're fast forwarding several years. It's now 2011. You're 22 years old, and this is your first Broadway show, Anything Goes. Now, obviously you had been through some shows, training before then. What was it like getting into this first Broadway show? Obviously, you had been doing other things. What were your preparations getting into this?

Kevin Munhall:

Yeah, so I had just graduated from the University of Michigan with BFA musical theater, and I did summer stock at Music Theatre Wichita, which was like the 5th season that I had done that. And during—

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Which is a good— I mean, you're in Wichita, and that's a great regional theater right there.

Kevin Munhall:

Yeah. Oh, it was fantastic. It was the best place on earth. It was truly like musical theater heaven. And the people were wonderful, and I learned so much. And in fact, connections that helped me get that job at Anything Goes, it turns out, I didn't find out until like a decade later. But yeah, definitely helped me get that. So, but during that process, the most I had ever done of any show was 8 performances.

Kevin Munhall:

You do, you show up, you learn it for a week, you do it for 8 shows, and then it's done. And then, you know, I had been in New York City for 6 weeks when I got Anything Goes, which was just like insane. And suddenly I'm doing a show that ended up running for over 500 performances, and I was not ready for that at all.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And were you primarily singer, or were you dancer? Did you do all 3?

Kevin Munhall:

Uh, I was primarily a dancer in that show. I mean, yes, we did all 3, but, um, yeah, it was one of the main Tap dancing sailors.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Now, tapping is certainly its own skill as opposed to just, you know, jazz or musical theater dancing. What led you specifically to go for tap? I mean, it's definitely more athletic. That seems to fit your wheelhouse.

Kevin Munhall:

Yeah, I— it's funny, in college, because I didn't grow up doing theater, I feel like when I got to college my freshman year, I was just like, oh no, I am so behind at everything. And the thing that it was like most glaring obvious was dancing. 'Cause like, you know, that's something you can't just like pretend.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Right.

Kevin Munhall:

You either know how to tap dance or do like a pirouette or you don't. And so I thankfully in high school, I was in an IB program, International Baccalaureate. And so I had a lot of extra credits when I showed up at University of Michigan. And so every extra credit that I had, I was just like, put a dance class in there, throw another dance class in there. And I knew I was the worst at tap dance. So I did as many tap classes as I could. Even my senior year, I took— I knew I was still not good enough, so I was taking the advanced tap class. And then I also was auditing the freshman year intro tap class back to back so I could just get as much as humanly possible in because I know I wasn't strong enough at it.

Kevin Munhall:

So it's also— it's kind of funny that that ended up being the thing that I was doing first. And I would still not say I am not a hoover. Like, I'm fine. I can get by in some theater tap. But yeah, it was—

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, it seems like that it was the challenge of it that kept you going, that— and maybe that's what made you obviously good enough to be on Broadway with it.

Kevin Munhall:

Yeah, I— it— I wish it was. Honestly, I wish I was following my passion. But honestly, at that point in time, it was all playing defense. It was all me being very rational and looking at like, what am I deficient in? And how can I fix this deficiency rather than me going like, what would I love to do with my art right now? And that, and that mindset served me really well initially. But after a certain amount of time, it is also the mindset that kind of fueled me towards burnout.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. Well, I mean, because getting Broadway was, was that the goal? Was you went through this BFA program, Broadway was the ultimate goal?

Kevin Munhall:

Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So then 6 weeks out of college, you're doing it, which is, which is, I mean, granted, people do it, but for people like me who who do not do that, that's like, wow, how did you do that? What happened?

Kevin Munhall:

Yeah. And it was also just like, it's such a fluke. It just— all it really means is one person said yes. It took me 6 weeks to get my first Broadway show, and it probably took me another 4 to 5 years to get my second, auditioning pretty much nonstop that total period of time. So 6 weeks doesn't mean anything. It just means one group of people said, Great. That's it.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So did Anything Goes— did, you know, as far as the expectations you went into the show and then the reality of it, how did those compare with each other?

Kevin Munhall:

It was such a magical experience. Just Kathleen Marshall is the director and choreographer. She has continued to be a wonderful— just like, I don't know, she just keeps popping up into my life over and over again. She has invited me to do so many shows since then. She's so loyal. She's— I met my wife doing a show with her. She— I also say her, her super— one of her superpowers is casting, because every show that I've done with her, it's always such a good group of people. And so it's also, you know, it's funny.

Kevin Munhall:

I feel like there's multiple people I've met who met their partner doing a show with her because she just, like, somehow brings really good people together. So that part of it was wonderful. The fact It was supposed to be a limited run. We all thought it was going to be 6 months. It wound up being like almost 2 years. That was incredible. You know, we got to do all the, all the things I never expected doing, like the Tonys and The View and Good Morning America and the— all the shows that— The Tonight Show. And the group of people, like, you know, some of them I'm still close with to this day.

Kevin Munhall:

So that part of it was incredible. Me and my artistry, I was pretty much a nervous wreck for most of it.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

It never felt easier, or you always felt worried?

Kevin Munhall:

I didn't realize how hard I was working always until a lot later. It wasn't that the show itself was challenging. It, like, it took a lot of energy, but, like, it wasn't an artistic challenge. The stamina of it all was very challenging for me just because I was someone who put so much energy into everything. I didn't know how to turn it off, and I just exhausted myself. My voice was always fatigued. I was always worrying about if I was in good voice. I was always, you know, every audition I had or any time I was getting auditions on top of it, I was just like, I couldn't quiet my mind and I couldn't— turn my body off.

Kevin Munhall:

I was just like on for 2 years straight. And it wasn't until much later when I wound up getting injured and much later after that when I started, you know, healing from all of this that I discovered how on I was and that there was an off switch that was missing.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, it's so curious because, I mean, we'll get into it with your second story, but being in New York versus being on the road, you know, whether you're on tour or regional show, do you find that that on and off switch is easier than, you know, when you're on the road or say regionally than when you're in New York and just the energy and drive and hustle of New York?

Kevin Munhall:

Hmm. I think, I think it's easier to be at home in your own space than to be in a hotel room. But I do think there is something kind of nice about like being, being in a place sometimes, maybe like a regional gig I'm thinking of, of being somewhere where like, this is, this is the only thing. And, and you get— and there's not a bunch of expectations on top of it of like, what's your next move? Are you going to take class? Are you like, what are you supposed to be doing to keeping the wheel, like keep the momentum going? Sometimes it's really nice to be away and to just like, this is what I'm here in Ogunquit, Maine. I'm going to enjoy the beach. And it is what it is. But in general, touring versus being in my own space is much easier.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, I hear you. I hear you. So when it comes to this particular Broadway show and the repetition of it, like you said, you'd only done 8 shows, you know, 8 performances of any particular show. And now you're, you know, week in, week out, just keep going. How did that repetition affect your performing, but then also just your body itself?

Kevin Munhall:

It made me question very seriously whether I actually was in the right career. Do you know? I think there was so— and I think a lot of people could probably relate to this, but there's so much energy going up to the opening of a show. And then when you— if you're so fortunate enough to be in a show that ends up getting nominated for Tony Awards, and then you go through the whole Tony process and you're doing all the television television shows and the press and all of this stuff. There's just so much energy and so much dopamine, and you're just like getting higher and higher and higher and higher and then coming back down on the other side of that and then going like, okay, now just do 8 shows a week. And you're like, oh no. Like, there really is a— there's a very real physiological drop-off that happens on the other side of that. And I wasn't prepared for it. I took that as like an indication that something was wrong with me or that like I didn't actually want to be doing this thing, or that, you know, this was all of a sign about what I should or should not be doing, rather than having any understanding that, like, no, that's a, that's a thing that happens with anyone who's accomplishing this big goal and coming down on the other side of it.

Kevin Munhall:

And so I didn't have the training or the understanding to handle that. And so I, you know, it was a wonderful show and a wonderful job. But, and the people were wonderful. And at the same time, I was also kind of struggling a little bit to handle the fact that I was living my dream and it felt a little cha— like it felt challenging. It felt less than as exciting as the big exciting moments. And of course it is. You can't sustain that excitement forever, nor should you. Um, but I wasn't ready for that.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

When it comes to this community that you were talking about, you know, everyone welcoming and supporting one another, did you feel like that you could talk about these kinds of things with other people and kind of get a sense of, hey, are you feeling this too? Or—

Kevin Munhall:

I didn't at the time because, you know, people— I was the young— it was my first show. I was 22. And, you know, everyone else was a lot older than me in the dressing room. And you know, their bodies were— had some more miles than mine did. And so, like, no one wants to hear that the 22-year-old is, like, sore or tired or, like, having a bad day. Like, what do you have to complain about? You're 22 living your dream. Like— and no one was mean about it, but just like, I didn't feel like I could talk about it. And also, I wasn't even sure if they had the answers.

Kevin Munhall:

I thought I was— Hmm. I thought I was the problem, not that there was, like, Something I could do to fix it.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Oh, that's— yeah, yeah, I did. I do hear what you're saying. You know, now that I'm in, you know, an older bracket, yeah, I look at the youngins, I'm like, you— yeah, yeah, you go off and you do all the kicks and leaps and I'll be in the back. I'll keep singing. You just do your thing. No, no, no, no, no, I totally get it. And so with that, you know, it, it seems like from everything you're saying, this is just a completely new and foreign experience to you. You know, while you had been performing, now you're in a different state of performing.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And so what, as the show, you know, nears its end, you know, and then you start to close the show, did you feel like that that was almost a relief that the show would be closing? Did you feel like, okay, good, now I can move on to something else, I can do something new, meaning a new show? Or yeah, what were your thoughts?

Kevin Munhall:

Yeah, I think there's definitely part of me that was relieved. And I think there was also part of me that had felt like a failure because I hadn't booked something to have me leave the show yet. You know, about halfway during the process, Kathleen Marshall opened a new Broadway show, Nice Work If You Can Get It, and she took about half the cast with her. And I was not one of the ones who went with her. And so, you know, it's a strange feeling to be like, oh, I'm— I'm left behind with this thing, and I haven't— I haven't booked. I haven't been the person who's so booked and blessed that they're, like, they're leaving their Broadway show to go do another one. And so there was definitely part of me that was like, oh, no, like, I don't have anything. This is really disappointing.

Kevin Munhall:

It's all— it's all been one giant mistake or, like, an accident that this happened. And, you know, I think it's taken a lot of time. to have a different perspective on that.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. Yeah. Because at the same time, it could be one of those things where, yes, she took half the cast to start this new show, but she left people that she cast to keep maintaining the show that she already had. So it's— yeah, it's a matter of mindset as well. She had to. Yeah, right. She couldn't take the whole cast, right?

Kevin Munhall:

Yeah. And she, you know, she has since invited me along to be one of those people many, many times. So it's not— it wasn't anything to do with me at that time. But when you're 22, You don't know that.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, performing— yes, there's the physical act of the singing, acting, dancing, but so much of it— and you're alluding to it— so much of it is the mental game and where our minds are and how we're processing that 8-show-a-week schedule. Did, did it get any easier, or was it that kind of tense, on the edge the whole time?

Kevin Munhall:

It came, it came in waves. But in terms of like just being— my voice was the most fragile thing, just because my worry, my anxiety, my kind of like always just kind of being on guard, it always shows up in my voice first and foremost. And I don't have like cords of steel to begin with. I'm not someone who can just like wail and it's all fine. There's a very big difference when I'm worrying about something versus when I'm not worrying about something. And so So it was most of the time, it was me taking a lot of voice lessons and not making the progress that I wanted to during that process. And then doing 8 shows a week and it always being very inconsistent whether it would be there or not and feeling very, you know, self-conscious about it and also worried about like, okay, well, how am I going to do this for the rest of my life?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

When the show ended and you started auditioning for other things, Did your voice come back? Did it feel easier?

Kevin Munhall:

No, it wasn't. My voice didn't really start to blossom in a very healthy way until kind of like a decade later, after I kind of left the business for a few years.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it does take that. I mean, to your point, emotions play a strong part in where our voice lands. Just, just that idea of like, if you're on stage, if you're in an emotional scene, it's a sad scene. that can dramatically affect your voice, just getting to that emotional state. So you have to kind of balance the, okay, I'm not quite as sad as I need to be just so I can sing this song. But, um, but, but yeah, like tightening up if you're nervous, if you're in an audition.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I mean, yes, the notes themselves can be, can be difficult, but if you're nervous, if you're unsure, you know, I— before we are recording this interview, I was recording a self-tape and it was None of the notes were high. I've sung much higher, but where this sat was a weird place, kind of in the bridge of my voice, and finding it was really tough. And so I was having— I was never quite fully happy with any of the recordings that I did, but you know, you just kind of have to submit a self-tape of something. But, but yeah, it's one of those things where if you're nervous, if you're unsure, it just comes through in the voice so easily.

Kevin Munhall:

Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Absolutely. Well, let's get on to story number 2. And this is the, the tour that you were on. This is Dirty Dancing 2015. And you say that you had a mysterious shoulder injury. Talk about this mystery, please.

Kevin Munhall:

Yeah. So I was warming up before a show, and I was on for the lead guy that night, Johnny Castle, Nobody Puts Baby in the Corner. And, uh, and I was just on hands and knees, just sitting there, not even in a plank, just on my hands and knees. And all of a sudden, my shoulder just, like, gave out and popped. And I was like, what was that? And I got up and I was like, I don't know if I can— I don't— this really hurts. Like, I don't know if I can lift my arm. Like, I could barely lift my arm at like shoulder level. And I was like trying to tell people about it and they're like, but what happened? I was like, nothing.

Kevin Munhall:

They're like, oh, okay. So I think you're probably fine. I went out and did the show that night, which includes like overhead one-arm, like lifts with that shoulder. Did the whole thing. And then afterwards, I'd ridden— I had ridden my bike to the theater, and I was like, I can't get my arm onto the bicycle to hold it. Like, I can't do that. So I had to take— I had to take an Uber home. And I went to the ER the next day, and I told them what happened.

Kevin Munhall:

And they scanned it. And the doctor came back, and he's like, okay, tell me what actually happened. I was like, I promise you, that is what happened. I had separated my shoulder, so not a dislocation, but I think it was like a grade 2 separation, which typically only happens with like blood force. Like some— like,

Patrick Oliver Jones:

like someone hits you. Yeah.

Kevin Munhall:

Yes. Like you get tackled in football, you fall off a building, like you're in a car crash. But that is not what happened to me. My shoulder just was like, you are done.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So just to describe it, so there's that kind of ball and socket that our shoulder sits into. It had just separated from that.

Kevin Munhall:

So no, that would, that would be a dislocation, is when the ball kind of comes out of the socket.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Okay.

Kevin Munhall:

This is the socket itself, the pieces of it. There's a piece that kind of comes around from the back side of your shoulder and comes up over to the front of your shoulder, which becomes your clavicle and your collarbone.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Okay.

Kevin Munhall:

And over on that edge, those 2 bones, that bone that is fused together popped and broke.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Oh, oh yeah. Wow. And literally, that's just from you stretching?

Kevin Munhall:

Well, you know, a lot of different things went into that. So I was— I sound like such a downer, but like, I was in a really bad— I had had plenty of great experiences in between Anything Goes and that show.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Of course.

Kevin Munhall:

But that was not a good fit for me.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

From Dirty Dancing itself?

Kevin Munhall:

Dirty Dancing, that show, being on tour, the group of people that were on the tour, the management company, the way it was produced, the way that we were treated. by stage management, the— from, from top to bottom, the way we rehearsed, it was all a mess. And so I was not in a good place mentally and emotionally. And once again, I— it really feels like my body was just like, hey, you are done. And, uh, yeah, so to this day, no, people still don't believe me. They're like, well, you must have done something beforehand and didn't realize that you'd done it. I was Haha. I— a short— like, I had actually had PT that day.

Kevin Munhall:

I had had PT like an hour before then, you know, was doing the PT exercises with the physical therapist. They had had hands on me. They weren't like, hey, your shoulder is separated and you don't know it. I didn't do anything in between going to PT. I went to dinner and then went to the theater and warmed up, and I was— I hadn't even done anything physical yet. Hadn't done push-ups, hadn't done anything. So It is what it is. No one will believe me, but that's literally what happened.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, I mean, I can certainly tell you, you know, based upon 2 experiences from my life. This was back whenever I was in high school. I remember I literally went to the fridge. I mean, I was perfectly fine, went to the fridge, I reached for the milk, and in that reaching, my back went wring. And for like the next week, I could barely— like when I would breathe, it would hurt. I— whatever I had done to my back, just reaching for milk did it. And then, and then there was another time later whenever I was down in Orlando, I went to this, this massage therapist and he was working on my back. He hit a point— tears.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Like unexpected, immediate tears. And, and, and he was like, yeah, you've been holding that in a long time. I was— and, and so it was like, for me, that was a very, uh, strong example of how our body stores everything— emotions, tensions, nerves, fears, all those things— and our body holds it. And so, yeah, if you had been going through a rough patch with this tour, then yeah, that's, that's where— in somewhere in your shoulders, that's where your body was holding it.

Kevin Munhall:

Yeah, and I mean, to be fair, it was physically a wildly demanding show on top of that.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Of course.

Kevin Munhall:

And also, yeah, that's where that was. That was the final straw. And it wasn't until much later that I got into physical therapy, did all the PT, got very into Alexander Technique and learned a lot more about my body and what I was holding and how I was holding patterns in ways that I didn't realize I was holding for many, many years way before that. And it was just, you know, it finally manifested in that moment.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

When it comes to these patterns that you're talking about, do you mean like emotional patterns or the physical patterns of the how you dance, how you prepare for things?

Kevin Munhall:

Yeah, more physical patterns of how I was dancing, how I was holding, how I was breathing, how I would, you know, pick up a cup and drink it. And just like the coordination of it and how much I was using things that didn't need to be involved with that process. And honestly, how a lot of that had a lot to do with my voice as well.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

How so?

Kevin Munhall:

Just because it was adding excess tension that didn't need— that wasn't, that wasn't helping me to support like to use my breath to actually support making sound as well as just like adding extra tension on, on and around my neck and jaw.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I see. Yeah. Yeah. Using your, your neck and those muscles in a way to, to make the sound rather than it freely flowing from the diaphragm and, and, and having that loose, that loose neck, uh, throat, everything. Yeah.

Kevin Munhall:

There's nothing loose. There was nothing loose. Honestly, just like the process of starting all of this so late and feeling behind, it was like from moment one, it was just like, the only thing that's gonna get me through this is working so hard and always being on and just like working. And that's like the opposite of what, like, creating kind of like freedom and not— and like subtlety and good work is kind of all about. You can't push— you can't push your way through it the way that you can in sports.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, that old saying about muscling through, you were literally doing that and your muscles finally went, no more.

Kevin Munhall:

Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. So with this injury then, So were you out the rest of the tour? Did you come back to it? How did it affect the rest of the run for you?

Kevin Munhall:

Yeah, I wound up not going back. I was going to return and I got another job and I was like, oh, thank goodness. And I, I did. My contract had, had expired. And so at the end of the process of me being cleared to perform again, I just went and did a job at Encores! at City Center. And yeah, I did not make it back.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

In some ways, you know, obviously looking back at it now, do you think that that injury, as painful as it was, I'm sure, to go through, do you think that that was kind of what saved you or kind of what put you on a different path? As far as if— had you stayed healthy and done Dirty Dancing, that would have been one path. but now you're on another.

Kevin Munhall:

Oh, yeah. It was— it was the best thing that ever happened to me. It got me out of a situation that wasn't great. Um, I did that show at City Center, and then while I was in New York, got another job with Kathleen Marshall again right after that, that I wouldn't have been able to leave, uh, another 6-month contract to go do. And during that show is when I met my wife. Um, and yeah, like, so many wonderful things have happened as a result of me not going back and my body just getting me out.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. Obviously, there are things in our lives, we have regrets, we have things, oh, I wish that had gone differently, or this or that. But then to have those moments as well, to look back and be like, that was a tough moment, but that put me on a path that led to another show, that led to you meeting your wife, that led to all these other things. And it's really wonderful to find those paths You know, that whole thing about these multiple paths that we have in our life that are possibilities, and the one that we're on is the one that led us to these wonderful things.

Kevin Munhall:

Yeah. Yeah, I, I, I, that's why I don't, I try as best I can not to have a lot of regrets because everything, everything created what actually did happen and whatever actually did happen is what made me who I am today. So, you know,

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we are, we are a combination of all of our wonderful and terrible things.

Kevin Munhall:

Yeah, yeah,

Patrick Oliver Jones:

yeah. So how has that experience, you know, going through Dirty Dancing, I guess learning more about your body, as you said, through Alexander Technique and other things, how did that learning experience then give you a stronger foundation going forward as a performer?

Kevin Munhall:

Yeah, so after that, I wound up, you know, as I was doing Alexander Technique as part of the process of me healing from that, I actually went and trained and became a teacher. So that was like a 3-year process after that. And that also got me really interested in breathing and my breath. And so, I then started training and understanding functional breathing and breathwork. And then, from there, I started training with— I did a 9-month mentorship with a sleep and respiration scientist and have done all of this other work to kind of better understand myself, but also to— I was really interested in helping other people through this because once I got through the other side of it, I was like, wow, I cannot believe that I, you know, have done all this stuff and done all this training and that I just understood my mind and my body so poorly, even though I thought I knew my body and my mind really well. And so all of this, when COVID eventually hit, I had just finished doing Tootsie on Broadway and then COVID hit. And then I started a whole new career in business, just, just doing that work, helping people with anxiety and stress and burnout, whether it's physical physical or, or emotional or mental, and kind of through a physiological nervous system perspective. Um, and so when, you know, COVID happened and, and eventually theater came back, and after that I just, I never did.

Kevin Munhall:

I, I stayed doing that primarily. I was working with people in the corporate world. Uh, I was working for companies. I was helping executives and people like that. Um, and then eventually I was like, hey Kevin, you know who actually needs is you, your own people.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I

Kevin Munhall:

was like, of course. So like once the world kind of theater got back, I also started running programs and doing one-on-one coaching for, for performers, teaching them all the skills that I wish I had when I was 18 or 22.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

It's so interesting when a performer does, you know, a side hustle, you know, you know, people get into real estate, people get into therapy, whether it's physical therapy or otherwise, people do other things to either support They're performing, or they find just a new career path. And it sounds like for at least a time, you just found a completely new career path for yourself.

Kevin Munhall:

Yeah, I did. And, you know, during that process, we also— my first— my daughter was born, and we ended up moving. And, you know, a whole— once all that happened, it was also really hard to think like, I'm going to give my time to someone else right now, you know, get back on that schedule and like miss bedtime every night. And so When they were little, I just, I wanted to be there. So, you know, I went full out into this, into this new career. And it wasn't until, you know, many— I guess I was doing that full-time pretty much for like 5 years until I was like, you know what, there are some things that I'm ready to explore again as a performer and that I don't think I'm actually completely finished with it. There's part of me That, like, there are things that I truly love. And honestly, it wasn't until going on that journey that— until I— that made me realize how much of what I had done initially in my career wasn't— weren't things that I actually had any interest in.

Kevin Munhall:

It was just the things that you do.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Munhall:

Like, and what I mean by that is that I got into this because I loved— I loved singing and dancing. I loved musical theater. I loved being in an ensemble. I loved partner dancing. Those were the things I really loved. And then because I was talented and had other skills, everyone was like, okay, so great. Now you can be— now you can play this role. Now you can audition for this play.

Kevin Munhall:

Now you can go out for pilot season, do all this TV. And I just said, yes. Like, of course, these are great opportunities. Of course I want to do this. be a TV star. And I never stopped to think or even had a moment to go like, do you want to do television? Like, I know it's like you would be more popular and make more money, and it's more prestigious and all these things, but like, is that your passion? It's not. It really isn't. I wish it were.

Kevin Munhall:

I wish I— but like, you know, during those processes, I— for many years, I was going— I was in final callbacks for plays at like MCC or The New Group or like wonderful places, or going back in for pilots over and over again. But like, I truly think the reason it never worked out is like, I didn't actually want to be doing those things. I just happened to be decent at them. And so, you know, going through this whole process, it wasn't until doing all this work on myself and helping all my clients with all this stuff that I was like, you know what? I really just want to do another big musical and sing and dance and be in an ensemble. If I'm ever given the chance to do that, that would be very cool. So yeah, that's kind of how it's integrated back into my artistry in this really strange way, is that I just know wholeheartedly what is a yes and what is a no. And thankfully, because I have this other career, I can make the decisions of like, I can say yes or no to what I wanna do rather than just saying like, I need to do this job.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, let us get into story number 3, which talks about your return to performing again. And this was just last year. This was the pre-Broadway run of Damn Yankees that was in Arena Stage down in Washington, D.C. And you'd been away from performing, as you said, for a long time. So it hearkens back to whenever you had been doing performances and then that was it. And now you're on your first Broadway show and doing all these performances time after time, week after week. Did it kind of feel like you kind of had to ease your way back into such a rigorous schedule, or did it feel like getting on a bike?

Kevin Munhall:

No, it felt like getting on a bike.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Okay, good.

Kevin Munhall:

It was really cool. I didn't know what to expect because, you know, 5 years away, you know, and especially for a dancer, you know, as you get older, your body changes. And if I hadn't— I hadn't been in class either. I hadn't taken a dance class in 5 years. And suddenly we were, you know, Sergio Trujillo is like, we were dancing, we were doing— we were doing the baseball thing. So it was a lot. It was very intense. Definitely, you know, everyone's body was sore, but it really was kind of— it was just a testament to, like, the fact that all this work really had paid off.

Kevin Munhall:

had done its magic on me and that if there was— there's so much value to it that like, I was like, oh, finally I have this, this, the tools to make this a sustainable thing.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

What would you say specifically was the biggest difference?

Kevin Munhall:

My relationship with nerves, my relationship with making a mistake. my relationship to my breath, my relationship to how I warm up. Um, and, and more than, more than anything, just kind of like, um, especially because I was understudying during that production, I had to go on for both of my understudy tracks during previews without any rehearsal for either of them, which previously would have— it literally would have killed me. I would have been But during that process, it honestly felt like the whole process was, was there to show me what I had learned during, during my time away and realize that like, okay, so now I understand what my nervous system needs before a show. I know how I need to prepare. I know whether I need to go over things 8,000 times like I used to versus now I don't do that. And I, you know, like the difference between putting myself in a good mood and being playful versus the difference between different versus being in a serious, like, I'm gonna execute this really well mood. Um, like, all of these different things, like how my relationship with, like, self-forgiveness and self-esteem and things like that, all these things are just, like, dramatically different compared to how I used to, to go about performing.

Kevin Munhall:

And all these things are, like, just make such a huge difference on whether or not my voice shows up or whether or not I can listen and be grounded and the words come

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I think something you said about getting back to what you enjoy, getting back to what it is that you love about it. Great, you have all these other skills, and so then it piles on all the other things that you can do wonderfully in these roles and this TV and that. But getting back to the core of what actually excites you, what is actually within your wheelhouse. Yes, we as performers, we want to do everything, but we have our skills, we have our specialties. Yeah. You know, it, it goes back to just recent auditions that I've had. I did one for Little Shop for Orin the dentist, which is a fun role, but I think because I had been told that this is a great role for me, it seemed to fit, you know, there's a lot of fun to be had with it, but I was nervous going into that audition and I just, I completely went up on lyrics. We had to start the song over again.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I feel like that the scene work was not really on, you know. It just felt off. Then I go in for Come From Away, which is not really a show that I saw it, but I didn't really think that much about it. There was just less pressure on it. So when I went in for that, there was just a lot more freedom and enjoyment of it, of doing that particular audition. So the material itself can also speak to us as, and tell us this, this is a better fit for you or this isn't.

Kevin Munhall:

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And when we're aligned with what we're doing and we feel like really passionate about it, it's easier for sure.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And with your work, is it mostly on these physical tools, these, these, how do you connect with this breath, with this movement, with, you know, very physical things, or is it also tying in that emotional mindset as well?

Kevin Munhall:

Yeah, it's all the above. So yeah, it's like understanding your nervous system from like a top-down perspective of how you're thoughts and, and the way that you kind of coach yourself or, or ruminate or whatever ends up happening in those moments, like that relationship and how that manifests in your body, as well as understanding your nervous system from like the body-up perspective of what your breath and body is doing and things that you can do, actual tools you can do to try and, you know, either shift your state or change how you're perceiving something. It really is kind of looking at you holistically and going like, okay, so like, what is going to make you the most grounded? What is going to make you feel safe? What is going to allow you to, to show up and be present? And what is, what are the currently the blocks that are, that are like causing you to feel more threatened in certain scenarios versus other scenarios? Why are you nervous? What are nerves? Do you even understand like, physiologically what's happening? Like, why is your heart racing? Why is, why are your palms sweaty? Do you understand that process? And it's really like starting at the very beginning and teaching people what's happening, number one, so they don't fear it so much. And then giving people tools that they can do in a number of different ways to kind of manage that process, that physiological response in different ways. And then number 3, building more capacity within their, their mind and body and nervous system so that fewer and fewer things end up creating such an intense kind of threat response to, you know, going on last minute or to certain auditions or walking into certain rooms.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Interesting, interesting. As you were saying that, it reminds me of— and I think this is something that we, we as artists battle with as well— that, that tug and pull of wanting to say yes to everything. Do this audition, do that, you know, go out for this, go— but at the same time, there is the, the Certainly the effort, physical and emotional effort that it takes to gear up for every different audition. But I noticed for myself, and I'm sure other people go through this, that they almost avoid it. They do other things like, I should be preparing for this audition, but I need to work on this as well, or I need to go do this, or, you know, some— someone wants me to go out. So I did. We kind of put other things in the way of it. Is that a Is that simply just fear of that audition? Is that us? Is that our body or our mind telling us you actually have other priorities? Like, how do you manage something like that, for example?

Kevin Munhall:

Yeah, I mean, it's— it manifests in all of us differently, for sure. And so in that, in that moment, like, number one, most people probably don't have the awareness yet that that's even happening until after the fact, unless they're really introspective. So like, number one, it's like trying to help people to build awareness of what their patterns are. Are you the type of person that puts it off till the last minute, or are you the person who hyperfocuses on it and goes over it a million different, a million different times and just squeezes the life out of it? Yeah. And so like figuring out what your pattern are, what your pattern is, is kind of like the first step. And then secondly, from there it's like, okay, um, can we put in place like a process of like what it even means to, to, to learn material, to practice material, and like what do we know from the, the the world of like research on, on memorization? What do we know in the world of research in terms of, uh, like, uh, putting us into the best state possible to help this actually kind of stick in our bodies and then using some of those tools so that you have a very clear process of like, okay, when I get material, I know this is the thing I'm going to do and this is how I'm going to do it. When these inevitable like resistance pops up, here's 4 things I can do. And like most of the time people think that their initial go-to is like, okay, I have to do some sort of breathing technique and like calm myself down.

Kevin Munhall:

But actually, from the majority of people, it's, it's actually the opposite. It's like they need to get moving. They need to do something. They have a lot of energy and they're throwing it into, you know, they're either being very avoidant with it or they're just like sitting there watching TV. And I'm like, no, I need to get you moving and doing stuff first and acknowledging some of this energy to get you into a better flow before you go work on this thing. Because it's very hard to go from just like low energy. I don't want to do this. And then like you pull up your phone and you try to go over the thing and it doesn't go very well.

Kevin Munhall:

You know, like what we're— what can we actually do to kind of prepare so that we're in the best possible situation to engage with the material?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And from, from the way you're talking about it, yeah, every person's going to be different. Every process is going to be different. But there must be those kind of core things that no matter, you know, who you're talking with, you know, whether they're a performer or someone in the office world, There must be some core things that are takeaways that you've learned. What would be one or two of those core things that we can all take away?

Kevin Munhall:

Well, the first thing to understand, I would say, is like, while it may feel like your body is betraying you sometimes, your body doesn't actually know how to betray you. It doesn't know how to go like, oh, like it doesn't know how to purposely sabotage in that sense. So what I'm saying is that it is a mind-body experience. So if you are feeling your heart racing, if you are