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[0:08] Patrick Oliver Jones: Welcome to Why I'll Never Make It, a lighthearted podcast that takes a revealing look at a career in the entertainment industry, featuring stories and conversations with those on stage and backstage, on screen and behind the scenes.

[0:23] Patrick Oliver Jones: To keep up with all the guests and episodes, go to the website winmepodcast.com.

[0:29] Patrick Oliver Jones: There you will find ways to follow and connect via Twitter and Instagram, as well as ways to support and donate to this podcast.

[0:37] Patrick Oliver Jones: I'm your host, Patrick Oliver Jones, and this is Why I'll Never Make It.

[0:47] Patrick Oliver Jones: Welcome back to another episode of the show.

[0:50] Patrick Oliver Jones: So glad to have you with me.

[0:52] Patrick Oliver Jones: And I am so glad to have my guest, Matthew Stern.

[0:55] Patrick Oliver Jones: He is a stage manager, and he's actually the first stage manager that I've had on the show, so I'm so glad to have his perspective and the amazingly wonderful but also demanding job that stage managers have, and he can talk all about that.

[1:11] Patrick Oliver Jones: In fact, he has created a symposium, and it's in their fifth year now, an annual symposium, where he gathers stage managers to talk about the ins and outs and the ups and downs and just the demanding work that goes into being a stage manager, and they can all kind of share their stories and share their experiences to better their own craft.

[1:33] Patrick Oliver Jones: And because that's really what it is. Stage management is itself, even though there's a lot of businessy things that go with it, there is an art and a craft to it.

[1:42] Patrick Oliver Jones: And so my guest today, Matthew Stern, is going to be talking about that distinction and balancing both the artistic and the business side of management.

[1:59] Patrick Oliver Jones: Matt, thank you so much for coming to my home studio here in Washington.

[2:05] Matthew Stern: Well, that's not just a pleasure, it's an honor.

[2:07] Patrick Oliver Jones: Thank you.

[2:08] Patrick Oliver Jones: Good, good. Well, you know what? Why don't we just dive right in? Because one of the things that I am wondering about is that when it comes to the actor stage manager dynamic, what do you think is the most important thing that they realize and understand about each other?

[2:23] Matthew Stern: Well, communication is really a key. Actors and stage managers inhabit the same space. We're in the rehearsal hall together, we're in the theater together. So it's really important for us to build a really good mutually understanding relationship. I think the most important thing that I would want actors to understand is that we are there for them.

[2:43] Matthew Stern: Absolutely. Like we're not trying to enforce rules or other things on top of the process to make it difficult or more challenging. We're really there to support them and to help them. So all the whatever institutional processes are going on around us, or that we get tasked with different challenges of get them to do this or not to do that, or just keeping people quiet in the wings sometimes. It really is about serving them and the process.

[3:12] Matthew Stern: So that would be great.

[3:15] Patrick Oliver Jones: Oh, absolutely, because it really is kind of a symbiotic relationship of us helping and facilitating each other and making the show come off.

[3:23] Matthew Stern: Yeah, because without the actors being able to feel safe and comfortable doing their job, it doesn't matter what we do. So we create the safe working environment where they can be able to risk and take chances and experiment and try and feel safe. Because mostly us actors, we see you in the rehearsal room, and so you're taking your notes, you're doing, you know, you can't kind of your tasks behind the table there. But so much of your job happens before rehearsal and after rehearsal, and even before the rehearsal process even started, you know, before we were even cast.

[3:55] Patrick Oliver Jones: So what is a normal day like for you from the top until the end of the day?

[4:01] Matthew Stern: Well, how much time do you have? I mean, I won't go into the full menu show, but I mean, because that's like a 16-hour day. So the like, you know, maybe scrunch that down into three sentences.

[4:11] Matthew Stern: Sure. We're always in at least an hour before the actors. So if you think of the actors, the rehearsal day 10 to 6. Our day is minimum nine to seven. So come in at nine, set up the rehearsal hall, make sure schedules are distributed, coffee is made, water is out, new pages are distributed, props are in the right places for whatever we're doing first on the bill, and then kick off the rehearsal, get it started, support the rehearsal, whether that's through following along on book, prompting lines, moving props or scenery, taking notes, prepping the report, whatever information is coming, sending that out via text or emails, flying back and forth about what changes are coming or what updates are needed.

[4:53] Matthew Stern: Call breaks, make sure we stay on track so the actors get those fives or 10 minute breaks when they're required to have, get people back from break. It can be a challenge sometimes. Keep the rehearsal hall flowing. We're kind of in charge of the mood and the timbre and the feeling in that rehearsal hall. So we able to facilitate that process if they need something. Our job is to get it, whether it's the director needing a cup of coffee or going out for a Starbucks run, which we're not really supposed to do, but we do that.

[5:24] Patrick Oliver Jones: But yeah, you're there to serve, right?

[5:26] Matthew Stern: Exactly. Servant leadership is what it's about.

[5:27] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah.

[5:28] Matthew Stern: Call the lunch break, check the emails, keep communication flowing between designers, upper management, general management, company management, whatever's coming out of rehearsal, notes that are coming from the director or the actors. Oh, can I have a pocket? Do I have, am I wearing a skirt in the scene or pants? Find out so that they know what they can do.

[5:46] Patrick Oliver Jones: Right, right. So just every little question or problem or issue or anything that comes up, you're just there to take notes, find the answer, and get it taken care of.

[5:56] Matthew Stern: Exactly.

[5:57] Patrick Oliver Jones: And it sounds like it's never ending as far as the best of things.

[6:00] Matthew Stern: It doesn't. Then we make sure rehearsal ends when it's supposed to end, and then codify and quantify all those notes from the day and make sure everything's been dealt with, then prep the schedule and get the schedule sent out for the next day.

[6:13] Patrick Oliver Jones: Wow.

[6:13] Matthew Stern: And hopefully that's all done an hour after rehearsal, and then you can go home or go have dinner or a drink and do something non-stage manager related.

[6:21] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, at least for a little bit.

[6:22] Matthew Stern: Until the phone rings or you know, your phone starts beeping.

[6:25] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah. Now, I know for us actors, one thing is when we finally get into the theater space itself. And it seems like that the tech rehearsal is really when, not that you haven't been working, but that's when stage manager is like, okay, now I'm in charge and now I'm overseeing many more things.

[6:42] Matthew Stern: I liken it to we're driving the bus now.

[6:44] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah.

[6:44] Matthew Stern: Yeah. You know, we don't get to pick the bus. We don't get to pick the destination. We don't get the business or the students in that bus.

[6:51] Patrick Oliver Jones: Or the passengers.

[6:52] Matthew Stern: But we do have to drive it. We have to get to opening night with everything tech and proper and safely done, all according to the director and the designer's vision. So that's when you hear our voice on the God mic telling everyone where we're starting, when we're stopping, and giving directions so that we can go step by step through the entire show and every physical cue, whether it's a sound cue, a set move, a lighting change, happens when it's supposed to happen.

[7:20] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah.

[7:20] Matthew Stern: So that's when we basically learn our lines. Like our script is calling, you know, lights Q23, go, you know.

[7:27] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, because that's something that I was talking to a stage manager in a show I was recently doing, and she was saying how she had to kind of figure out when to call a cue based upon a line. And obviously, actors we say lines at different speeds, maybe depending on the night. And so she would have to kind of gauge when that cue would be called based upon a line that was constantly changing. That's kind of the symbiotic relationship between actor and stage manager in that moment.

[7:52] Matthew Stern: I had this experience very clearly demonstrated when I was doing Billy Crystal's tour of 700 Sundays. As an amazing comic, he works the audience and changes his phrasing or inflection just enough, knowing that audience to get just the laugh he wants. So as a show caller, I'm there with the script, knowing what the next words should be, knowing how he said it last night, but still having to kind of be in his head knowing which way he's gonna figure out which way he's gonna do it now.

[8:20] Matthew Stern: And then so that I get the call the cue called in just the right spot so that the operator has just enough time to push the button to where the thing happens, right where Billy in his mind wants it to happen.

[8:30] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah.

[8:30] Matthew Stern: Yeah. So it could be really exciting and it could also be really, really terrifying in that way. But when it's really working, that's like that we're like the unseen third party in that scene.

[8:40] Patrick Oliver Jones: Oh, oh, oh, absolutely.

[8:41] Matthew Stern: Yeah, yeah.

[8:42] Matthew Stern: An essential part of everything that goes on that the actors have nothing to do with, you know, the set, the lights, the sound, and all that kind of stuff. So when it comes to, we'll take a step back now, and when it comes to being in a show, what is that interview? What's basically your audition like?

[8:57] Matthew Stern: Um, it really is about relationship building. So someone knows someone who's looking for someone, and then you get a phone call or an email, hey, are you available? We're having interviews, can you send me your resume? And so it's networking becomes the real key to building a career, and your reputation becomes your head shot in essence.

[9:19] Matthew Stern: Um, the business is really kind of small when you think about it. Everyone knows everyone. I, you know, we all know the game, you know, six degrees of Kevin Bacon. I think it's there's one degree in our business. Everyone knows everyone, you just gotta get to the one right person.

[9:32] Patrick Oliver Jones: Right.

[9:33] Matthew Stern: Right. And then once you have the opportunity, it is about an interview. And as a production stage manager, that's usually with the director. You know, that relationship that the director can feel confident that the stage manager is gonna be able to implement their vision the way they want it, to feel supported and understood is really, really key.

[9:55] Patrick Oliver Jones: Within that relationship that you were talking about, do you find that you tend to work with the same people over and over again? Or is it kind of like, as you said, that degree of separation where someone knew someone that you worked with a lot and now you're moving on into other areas?

[10:10] Matthew Stern: Well, my personal career has been one where I've had a lot of diversity. I've very rarely worked with the same team twice.

[10:16] Matthew Stern: Oh, interesting. I know other stage managers who have worked with the same person for two, three, four, five, ten years, time after time after time. And when you create that relationship with someone, it makes sense. You know, we work well together, we're a great team. I know a great stage manager friend who's assisted the same PSM on easily 10 different Broadway shows, and that's wonderful. My career has just gone in such a way that the opportunities have come up through more of a snake-like circuitous path where it's like, well, my show's about to close, but I had lunch with my friend on this day, and then that person knew someone who was looking for someone on another show. So they gave them my name, and then that wound up to being the next show.

[10:55] Matthew Stern: And it's very, very intriguing to try to plot out which relationship led to which job in which fashion.

[11:04] Patrick Oliver Jones: And so, with this kind of process, how much of it is that random call that you weren't expecting, and you actually, like us actors, having to go out there, pound the pavement and look for that work?

[11:16] Matthew Stern: You have to network. You have to be, you can't just work with someone once 10 years ago and expect that that person's gonna remember you ten years later. You need to stay in touch. Now, one of the great things about trying to do that in our contemporary age is all the social media you have.

[11:29] Patrick Oliver Jones: True.

[11:30] Matthew Stern: You can be in touch with people via Facebook or Instagram or Twitter in a way that you couldn't before. I was coming up, it was about, you know, we still had email. You know, I remember getting my very first email address when I first graduated from college, and that was a very big day. But it was about sending out that email every so often, hey, how you doing, thinking about you, or just getting together physically. When I started in New York, there was a group of us about the same age, and we always did Thursday night drink night.

[11:58] Matthew Stern: Nice, yeah. So it was all about getting together and being social, enjoying each other's company, and in that process, we would share some of our joys and challenges that we were having personally, professionally, and then of course we would talk about what we know and what's going on in the business.

[12:13] Matthew Stern: And so, with those kind of conversations, what tended to be a theme among stage managers that were their issues or problems that they would face?

[12:22] Uh we work really long hours.

[12:24] That's always that's always a big one.

[12:26] I tell stage managers don't ever try to figure out your hourly.

[12:28] It's not worth it.

[12:29] It's just that no it's it's worth it on the inside.

[12:32] On the that's where it's worth it.

[12:33] But you know you put in the time that it takes to get the job done and getting the job done is its own reward and great satisfaction.

[12:39] You know stage managers don't get Tonies we don't get awards.

[12:43] Um we do it for the satisfaction of knowing that you were a key part of that process.

[12:49] That's why when you know Nathan Lane goes up and thanks his stage managers, you're like, yes awesome we've been acknowledged.

[12:57] Yeah it it feels really good.

[12:58] You don't do it for those reasons.

[13:00] We don't get the applause, but you do it to be able to go at the end of the day.

[13:03] You finish the calling the show it's the last cue of lame is a Rob.

[13:05] Everyone's walking off stage and you're like oh we did it again.

[13:08] Yeah.

[13:09] That was yeah I did lame is for two years, six months and a week on tour and every time we finished that show it was like another marathon.

[13:16] Yeah because that's like a a three hour show.

[13:18] Yeah before the cuts which is when I did it.

[13:21] Yeah yeah and and then the cuts made it like two forty five maybe two and a half.

[13:25] But uh but yeah it's it's constant from the beginning to end.

[13:28] You're just go go go because there's so much happens in that show.

[13:32] And you know and but but then you also have those shows where it's like one set um you know that the there might be three actors and so a much simpler show.

[13:40] Does the type of work you do depend on that production as well?

[13:43] The type is much more different.

[13:45] A show some that I did similar to what you're describing is the Death of a Salesman revival I did with Philip Seymour Hoffman and Andrew Garfield.

[13:51] Yeah.

[13:51] Um that they we had one lift on the show for the the beds for Biff and Hap.

[13:56] So technically it was nothing basically a unit set.

[14:00] The challenge was the interpersonal dynamics and having to be hyper aware of what those actors would need and be available for them.

[14:09] And also in this specific case, what not to do.

[14:14] Like Philip needed to do his own process.

[14:17] I mean, you gotta respect someone whose job every day is to come in and get to a place where they kill themselves.

[14:22] Right.

[14:23] This is a this is a big deal.

[14:25] So whatever his process was, it was respecting that.

[14:28] So if we wind up at the coffee table getting coffee at the same time, it's not about chatting him up and saying hi.

[14:34] If he needs something, I'm aware of it.

[14:36] I know he's there, he will ask for it.

[14:39] Otherwise, my job is to fade away and let him do what he needs to do.

[14:44] And that's its own kind of skill.

[14:46] I think one of the very important skills, especially younger people I know, I was like this myself too.

[14:52] Knowing when not to speak.

[14:55] That's as important as knowing when to speak.

[14:57] A lot of times we think we have the answer.

[14:58] Oh, I get the thing, or oh, they did.

[15:01] Listen, use your ears first, use your emotional intelligence first, be aware of the situation, assess, is it your place to come up with a solution, then take the step forward.

[15:12] I th I think that's something that us actors also have a time learning.

[15:16] Is you know, because as actors in the scene, listening isn't as important as the lines we actually have to say.

[15:22] So from that craft, but then also in the audition space where we have to listen to the director, take that uh critique, take that adjustment, and then do something with it.

[15:33] So I I think it's just the same thing for for actors when it comes to listening.

[15:38] Well, I know some really great stage managers who used to be professional actors.

[15:41] I mean, I started as an actor a million years ago, never professionally, but there's a few that I've worked with who have had great careers on Broadway as actors and then became amazing stage managers, and they have that skill, that ability to empathize and hear and listen, not just not just with their ears, but with the their whole their whole being in a way.

[16:01] Now you are a member of the Actors Equity Union, and it's called the Actors Equity, not the Stage Manager's Union.

[16:07] And so I I have wondered because it seems like that, yes, we're all in the show together, but it it is very different.

[16:15] Like stage directors and choreographers have their own union and and musicians have their own union.

[16:20] Does it often feel like that there's competing interests when it comes to being in the same union with actors?

[16:25] I I wouldn't say often, but I also wouldn't say never.

[16:28] The great part about it is that we are subject to the same work rules.

[16:31] And unlike anyone else in the entire process, actors and stage managers are the only people that are together from first rehearsal to closing night.

[16:41] That is true.

[16:42] Yeah, because the director comes and goes.

[16:44] They come and for us, we'll be tech, we open it, all the creatives are out the door.

[16:47] Sure.

[16:47] The crew doesn't join us until we move into the theater.

[16:50] So there's a relationship there that's I think very helpful for us to have that ability to be protected by the same organization.

[16:59] So we are we are in this together.

[17:01] Um the the challenges are, you know, when we're trying to figure out creative ways to find the solutions within, you know, the work rules that we're given.

[17:13] Sometimes it feels like it's a little little push prod.

[17:15] It's like, well, my union tells me this, but I think we can do this, and it would be better if we did that, but the union is that.

[17:21] And so there's a little uh challenge there.

[17:25] But I've also found that actors equity on a whole has been much more responsive recently to the needs of stage managers than I felt when I was, I felt, you know, 10 years ago.

[17:34] Yeah, as being in committees right now, that has certainly been something that's come up a lot more.

[17:39] It's like we'll go through and talk about the issues actors have, and invariably someone in the committee it's like, well, what about stage managers?

[17:46] What what do you need in this particular case?

[17:48] And so I think that it's really uh I think it's come from actors that we recognize that you guys have just different needs, a different set of criteria that you have to work with in the rehearsal space and in uh performances.

[18:02] Yeah, even with everything going on with the recent developmental contract negotiations, there was still was a piece of pie that that we were working on that was for stage managers that was trying to address not just the larger concerns about salaries for everyone and protecting rehearsal weeks and the participation uh portion, but also addressing the needs of stage managers in this process was was a part of it.

[18:23] And I was very, very pleased that that was one of the things that our union was looking to do for us.

[18:28] And something that you yourself have taken upon as as far as creating those conversations and trying to address the needs of stage managers is something called Broadway Symposium.

[18:38] Can you tell us a little bit about how that started and what exactly it is?

[18:42] Yeah, the Broadway Stage Management Symposium.

[18:44] It's a two-day conference built in essence by stage managers for stage managers.

[18:49] There's very little uh available that services I think the unique needs of stage managers.

[18:56] There's a million different workshops, classes, conferences for actors, um, lots of things for designers and directors have opportunities to work on their craft.

[19:06] But as far as stage managers, what we do is so difficult to put your finger on.

[19:11] It's it's kind of like picking up sand and say, look what I did, and the sand is running out of your hands.

[19:17] Like, like I can't show you what I did because it's falling away.

[19:19] And each of those grains of sand is another aspect to your job that you have to do.

[19:23] Absolutely.

[19:24] I can't hold up a rendering or take a picture or say, you know, come to my reading, you'll see my work.

[19:30] It's like no, because it's all the interplay between people.

[19:33] So I've been teaching for many years, and I went through a process where I was closing a lot of Broadway shows, so my class would participate a lot in the process.

[19:42] Come and observe rehearsal, come and observe a preview, a tech, whatever.

[19:45] And that interplay of having them in the space and talking about what I'm doing as I'm doing it was really valuable.

[19:52] So uh I kind of hearken back to when I was a student, I attended uh the very first Broadway lighting design masterclass.

[19:59] I was like, wouldn't it be great if there was something like that for stage managers?

[20:02] And so what we do at the Broadway Stage Management Symposium is we bring together all of our Broadway colleagues, and we have various panels on all sorts of different topics about the art and craft of stage management.

[20:14] So over the two days, we'll have 12 to 14 different panels on various topics um emotional intelligence, servant leadership, um, relationship with the director, uh all different types of focus conversations with the Broadway pros who are doing it right now.

[20:31] And so anyone can come, it's totally open to the public.

[20:34] And I've had people as young as high school students who are really interested in stage management, all the way to people who are coming to stage management later in life, who've been working off Broadway for years, people who are educators and teaching stage management come from people from Cirque du Soleil or cruise ship industries who are interested in what how we're doing it and what our process is like.

[20:53] And the majority of of the attendees is that college students, you know, I'm about to graduate, I've recently graduated the you know, 20 somethings who really want to dive in, want to meet all these great Broadway stage managers and talk to them and get their insights and information because some of them have 20, 30, 40 years of Broadway experience.

[21:12] I mean, our very first keynote speaker was Peter Lawrence, who you know won a Tony honor for stage management just a few years ago.

[21:18] Wow, yeah.

[21:18] Yeah, it's great.

[21:19] I mean, the attendees are amazing.

[21:21] Um the PSMs of many Broadway shows.

[21:25] Like you I can go on and on, but Broadway Symposium.com will give you all the detailed information.

[21:30] Um last year we had a lot of great uh panels about uh sexual harassment and actors equity participated in that um about what stage managers needed to know in the post-Weinstein era.

[21:43] Um another panel about uh diversity uh and stage management specifically, and what we can and should be doing to try to keep our workplace diverse.

[21:53] Um, and this year we're looking at doing some things like uh I was just talking about this earlier with uh another young stage manager about social media for stage managers.

[22:02] Like like how to promote yourself or just how to sit to get yourself out there, that networking you were talking about?

[22:07] Kind of all of it.

[22:08] One, people are coming to social networking earlier and earlier.

[22:12] So, how do I curate and manage my social my social life, my social media presence as a professional stage manager?

[22:19] What do I need to be concerned about?

[22:21] Because we man we we are on that line between management and and the actors.

[22:27] So we need to be considerate of management, but we also need to be able to be with the actors.

[22:32] So, where is that line in the social sphere?

[22:35] And also, how do we manage social media use in rehearsal and in the show?

[22:39] Social media uh marketing is such a big deal, and the actors are even encouraged to use social media, but then how do we keep it from distracting from the process?

[22:49] Right.

[22:49] Yes, we want it.

[22:50] We want the snapshots going up.

[22:51] We want everyone, we want to be the next to be more chill that the social media drives us right to Broadway.

[22:56] Right.

[22:56] Um, but also we need to be respectful of the process.

[22:59] So, how do we manage that?

[23:00] I've done many shows where the actors are going on stage with you know their phones in their bra or tucked in their pants, and they come off stage, and okay, well, there's pockets for cell phones where there used to be pockets for water bottles.

[23:11] Isn't that funny?

[23:12] Yeah, yeah, it's just it's a different world.

[23:14] So we need to be more aware of a how we manage it in our space, but how we manage ourselves and our own relationship to the social media.

[23:21] And I think it'll be a very interesting conversation to have with some of the stage managers who are pretty savvy in that world.

[23:26] And then I've also been talking with some of the social marketing people on Broadway to come into that conversation as well.

[23:31] So we can all kind of talk about it together.

[23:43] What would you say?

[23:44] How would you define is the the art and craft of stage management?

[23:49] Well, it's me, it's many things.

[23:51] The art and craft of stage management for me, if I'm to put it really simply, is people skills.

[23:57] And if you think of working with people and how you manage people and lead people as an art, that art form is what I think stage management is.

[24:08] Unlike a painter who's painting with, you know, I have canvases, I paint out oil paints and blues and reds.

[24:14] Matthew Stern: Well, I have different skills in my toolbox, and I'm not gonna talk to Philip Seymour Hoffman the same way I talked to Billy Crystal, the same way I talked to my dance captain, in the same way I'm gonna talk to my dresser, the same way I'm gonna talk to the usher. You have to relate to people individually, who they are. And, uh, I recently, you know, I told my kids all the time when they were younger, the golden rule: treat other people the way you want to be treated, yeah, blah, blah. I'm like, no, no, no. There's this thing called the platinum rule. It's treat other people the way they want to be treated. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's a good way to look at it. Like, that's a big deal. That's a big step when you actually think about it.

Like, okay, it's not about what I want, it's about what they want. So if I can try to project and think about it from their point of view, then I can better understand them, better I can serve them. Not that you always do everything everyone tells you to do, but you understand why that's being asked. And then sometimes what's being asked is not what's really needed. You know, many times I'm sure you've had this experience where somebody's complaining about their scene partner, and they're not really complaining about their scene partner, they're really upset, you know, that their partner at home, something else is going on, or something's going on with their kids or their finances, their parents.

All this other stuff is going on under the surface. So if you could just listen, really like we were talking earlier, emotional intelligence, listening and hearing that person, you can be a better sounding board. Often happens, I get tons of notes from an actor coming at me. I understand, I hear you. I don't have to do a thing about it, except be the sounding board, be the person that they can vent all that stuff out to.

[25:46] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah.

[25:46] Matthew Stern: And by not reacting, just being that able to absorb it, they get it out. Okay, that's great. Now they're able to go back out there and do the scene.

[25:55] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah.

[25:55] Matthew Stern: It really is powerful sometimes if you can take that step out of it and then look at it from the other person's side.

[26:04] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, I mean, it sounds like, like you said, you really have to be a sounding board and kind of absorb a lot of things that come at you from different directions. Would you say that that's one of the toughest parts in kind of like cutting off your emotions so you're not yelling or getting, you know, angry at this or that, or frustrated that you kind of are able to keep even keel?

[26:26] Matthew Stern: Uh, keeping calm. I wouldn't say cutting off emotions because I want stage managers to still be themselves. You can still have a personality. You can still be a person. Of course. Um, like I know some stage managers who are like, uh, I think it was Peter Lawrence actually said this at, uh, I think it was the second symposium. He's like, yeah, I had a reputation. My catchphrase was four blenders, no waiting. It was all about celebrating and company morale and keeping everyone happy, and he was to convince the producers to have parties. But then, um, another stage manager comes in and is like, yeah, I view my job like I'm being a mechanic, and I'm given this car and I gotta keep this car running. So it's a much more technical way of looking at things.

[27:00] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, yeah.

[27:01] Matthew Stern: So I can be who I am and in my strengths, but being able to be calm no matter what that art is, is very cool, very, uh, key.

[27:11] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah.

[27:12] Matthew Stern: Um, so that you don't have to, when something's going wrong, you can't be the person to panic. You know, that's, uh, that's why another one of the sessions we're doing this year at the symposium is about show stops.

[27:23] Patrick Oliver Jones: Okay.

[27:24] Matthew Stern: Being comfortable with stopping the show. Because most of the time when something goes wrong, that's usually the best thing you could do is just stop.

[27:31] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah. I mean, that there is that need or want to just kind of push through what we'll get it through, but yeah, that there are those times where it's just all right, we have to stop now and fix this.

[27:41] Matthew Stern: Yeah, and I want to take the mystery of that away and don't, and that the show must go on spirit is great in the movies with Mickey Rourke and Judy Garland in the 50s and 60s, but, um, when you're dealing with traps and flying and you really have to remember that although theater is not brain surgery, sometimes it is. And you know, and I would say from an audience standpoint, it's kind of interesting whenever you kind of get a glimpse and like, oh, something went wrong. They have to stop it. You watch them fix it, you pick it up. And you can kind of feel like, you know, the audience kind of gets on the edge of their seat again, like they're engaged again.

[28:18] Matthew Stern: Like, oh, oh, what's going on?

[28:20] Patrick Oliver Jones: Audiences usually love it.

[28:22] Matthew Stern: It's something that reminds us that we are live. That's the beauty of the theater. Otherwise, just go to just go to a movie.

[28:29] Patrick Oliver Jones: Just go to a movie.

[28:29] Matthew Stern: The fact that the whole thing could fall apart at any moment is what makes it so amazing.

[28:34] Patrick Oliver Jones: Absolutely.

[28:35] Matthew Stern: Yeah.

[28:35] Patrick Oliver Jones: That it's completely different in the moment on the fly.

[28:38] Matthew Stern: We're just making it happen.

[28:39] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah. I mean, people went to see Spider-Man just for that.

[28:42] Matthew Stern: Oh, oh, that's why I went to go see it. I mean, I was certainly never hoping that for some.

[28:47] Patrick Oliver Jones: No, not because you get hurt.

[28:48] Matthew Stern: Right. But you're like, oh, what crazy thing is gonna happen next?

[28:51] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, it's like this has been in previews for two years now and they can't get it right. What is going on?

[28:55] Matthew Stern: So yeah, so I wanted to see what it was all about. So as long as you don't keep your show stops too long or too interminable, I think audiences are too frequent, like stopping three, four times in a show is quite unfortunate.

[29:07] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah.

[29:07] Matthew Stern: But audiences are quite forgiving, they love it. It's getting stage managers to understand that it's okay and being able to justify that decision. If the director's coming back and saying, why did you do that? My, my, my, my art, my thing. It's like, well, your actors were unsafe.

[29:23] Patrick Oliver Jones: Right.

[29:24] Matthew Stern: So we kept them safe, and your audience is still totally bought in because your actors do a really great job. Just be able to not defend it, but to communicate why that was the best decision. And for producers, oh my god, you stopped the show. That's so, it's like it's better to stop and get everyone off stage safely than for you to have to deal with a lawsuit.

[29:44] Patrick Oliver Jones: Right, or an injured actor and then have to replace some or something.

[29:47] Matthew Stern: This is gonna be better.

[29:48] Patrick Oliver Jones: Right.

[29:48] Matthew Stern: Um, so I think if we can instill that confidence in people, which when I first started, I was not very confident in doing that. But through the course of some of the shows I've done, like The Little Mermaid, we wound up stopping quite often. So it becomes this is what the actors need to feel safe. That's not a problem. I got very, very good at stopping and starting shows. I have no problem doing it. It's like the easiest thing to do. It's not a big deal. And we should take the mystery away from that. If you need to stop, for two reasons, two big reasons. One, there's a safety concern. Any danger, just stop, not worth it.

[30:22] Patrick Oliver Jones: Right.

[30:22] Matthew Stern: Two, you can't tell the story anymore. If you can't tell the story anymore, when I was doing Les Mis one time, the turntable stopped during, uh, the barricade scene facing the wrong way. So instead of all the actors shooting upstage for the final barricade, they're shooting downstage at the audience. And Gavrosh is sitting out there pretending he's dead, and Anjuras winds up dying and falling, and he's dead. And you're like, okay, I have two actors pretending to be dead downstage, and nobody can watch Valjean rescue Marius.

[30:50] Patrick Oliver Jones: Right, yeah.

[30:51] Matthew Stern: Except for that, we really could keep going. But if you miss that, you kind of miss the whole rest of it.

[30:57] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, yeah.

[30:58] Matthew Stern: Like that's kind of a pivotal moment in the show.

[31:00] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah.

[31:01] Matthew Stern: So then we stopped. No one was in danger. The actors were fine, they were just laying down waiting for someone to tell them to get up. But that was okay. That's when you have to stop. You can't tell the story anymore.

[31:09] Patrick Oliver Jones: It's a really key plot point.

[31:13] Matthew Stern: Yeah, it reminds me of whenever I was on the Adams Family tour.

[31:16] Patrick Oliver Jones: Okay.

[31:16] Matthew Stern: And so there's this, uh, one point at which, uh, Pugsley is in his bed and it goes from one end of the stage to the other. Uh, and in that, in that transition, the drop that was behind him got caught in the trap as he was going. And so it, you know, they kept saying their lines because it Morticia and Pugsley, they kept saying their lines, but now their scene was done and they're still on stage. And so, you know, the stage managers had to call, you know, over the god mic, please hold. One of the ASMs went out, yanked, you know, got it, got it going, and then it went on and the audience clapped.

[31:57] Patrick Oliver Jones: So I mean, the audience was just like in it and wondering what was going to happen.

[32:02] Matthew Stern: The audience is participating in the suspension of disbelief.

[32:05] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah.

[32:05] Matthew Stern: And our imaginations are so proud of that we can decide to believe something the next, and then like, oh yeah, this is all just fun. And then I believe it and still went up crying and laughing and all the good ways.

[32:14] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah.

[32:15] Matthew Stern: Yeah, yeah. I d I love stories like that. It's that not that we want something to go wrong, but when stuff does, that's always kind of when we kind of go to the ride where no one's in danger.

[32:25] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, it can be, it can be great.

[32:27] Matthew Stern: In Les Mis when we, we didn't get the gates on one one day for, um, the attack on the Rue Plumé. You know, the turntable goes back and forth, and it's the Tenardier's waiting to attack, and Eponine telling him no, and that's Marius and Cosette falling in love, and you're going back and forth about it. One day the gates didn't go on. And I was like, I'm on deck. Okay. I ran upstage. I told Marius and Cosette, there's no gates.

[32:47] Patrick Oliver Jones: There's no gates.

[32:47] Matthew Stern: What? The gates aren't on. Go. And they went right on stage and they acted the whole scene as if the gates were there.

[32:49] Patrick Oliver Jones: As if the gates were there.

[32:54] Matthew Stern: And I tell you, Marius came off stage, a great actor, friend Tim Howard. He came out and was like, that was the best scene ever. We were so in it. It was amazing. I was like, yeah, okay, cool.

[33:05] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah.

[33:05] Matthew Stern: We're gonna have the gates tomorrow though.

[33:07] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, yeah.

[33:07] Matthew Stern: The gates are coming back.

[33:08] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, but I'm so glad that was it. It was a great acting experience for them because they really had to be present.

[33:13] Matthew Stern: And it snaps you out of the doldrum of doing the same show eight times a week every week. Just that that's like when an understudy goes on or a swing or in a combo show, and just having that something that's just a little bit different jacks everybody up again.

[33:27] Patrick Oliver Jones: Right, right.

[33:27] Matthew Stern: It kind of raises the awareness, not only the actors, but then I think that helps the audience because they're really getting something fresh, not something that we've been doing for the last three months that's been the same. It's now something that's really fresh and I think that helps the show itself have that kind of fresh.

[33:41] Matthew Stern: And even as a stage manager when I'm calling the show time after time after time, if my energy lags and goes down, the crew's energy goes down and lags. So by keeping myself buoyant and not, not like, you know, super giddy happy all the time on headset, but by staying up and aware and you could feel it in my tone of voice, that keeps the crew engaged as well.

[34:02] Patrick Oliver Jones: It's so crazy how that can be because I had a conductor who had that same mentality that whenever she would just, you know, one, two, three foot just kind of conducting and it's fine and it's okay, then you got a fine performance from the orchestra. But then there were those she would be booping and bopping and dancing and really just getting into the groove of the music and that infected the, uh, the musicians with more energy. Us on stage, we kind of gave a little extra to those upbeat numbers, so it just, just a mindset or an attitude can really help everyone.

[34:35] Matthew Stern: Yeah, those fine little details in how you do your job, not do you do, but how you do it.

[34:41] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah.

[34:41] Matthew Stern: Those little things are what really change the timbre of what happens in rehearsal. So as a stage manager, how I send someone to break, how I call us back from break, how I call the half hour, like those little things actually matter. And that's one of the things I love about the symposium. We talk about that high level view of what you're trying to do. It's not just making paperwork and calling cues.

[35:04] Patrick Oliver Jones: That's right.

[35:04] Matthew Stern: It's not a basic class. The symposium is not where you're gonna go to learn how to make a prop list. But it is where you're gonna go to come out with amazing insights in how to stage manage, how to be a better stage manager, how you approach your job, and what tools you can use to do that even better.

[35:19] Patrick Oliver Jones: Absolutely.

[35:20] Matthew Stern: And you had mentioned the various different kinds of shows that you've done over your career. And so what to a stage manager, what is making it? What is that idea of, okay, now I've arrived, I am now a full-fledged stage manager?

[35:37] Matthew Stern: Well, I've been thinking about that, and I think it's different at different points in my career. Like early on when I went to college, it was just I will have made it if I can make a career in the theater doing something, sweeping the floors, anything. If it's in the theater, then I will have made it.

[35:50] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah.

[35:51] Matthew Stern: So that's when I go to my first theater class, and the professor says, I need some people to work backstage in a show. If you want to help out, show up at the theater at four o'clock, and I show up at two. You know, it's that. So that was the mentality that I had then. Then after you're doing it for a while, it's like, oh my god, making it, if I can just get to Broadway, if I could just get to Broadway. And then you get to, and then you get there and it's your first opening night, and it's like, wow, I've made it. And then a few weeks later, your show closes.

[36:18] Patrick Oliver Jones: Which happens, absolutely, yeah.

[36:21] Matthew Stern: Yeah. Um for me now, it's a little different place. As a professional, it was like, okay, well, I want to be able to pay my bills. I want to work with people that I really enjoy working with, and I want to spend time with my kids. So that's kind of making it. It's kind of having that balance of the personal and the professional. Work life balance at a certain point is something that we, especially stage managers, really struggle with. I get asked that question a lot. I gave a talk at the Cal State Northridge a couple weeks ago, and the very first question was the work life balance question. It's like, okay, well, I have a very simple answer that you're not gonna like. I don't know. I don't know what the answer is.

But I know that we struggle with it, and every day you make choices multiple times a day on what you're gonna choose to do and what you have to say yes to and what you have to say no to. And it's those little struggles all the time. Cause it is a 24-7 job almost, because just because it's your day off, like on a Monday, doesn't mean that the producing team or anyone else has their own.

[37:32] Matthew Stern: Do you not return emails to at least after noon? Do you jump in right away and say, okay, now it's two o'clock, now I really am taking the rest of my day off? And you can at a certain point make those decisions. It's challenging because we feel a lot of responsibility. Like anyone who goes into stage management does it because they love taking care of everything. Right. And we get a certain value and fulfillment from being the person to find solutions, to take care of it, to solve the problems, to make it happen. Um, so that's a real challenge for us in our own personality and our own makeup. The things that make us good stage managers aren't necessarily always the good things that are the best in our personal life.

So it's about learning that and understanding it. And uh it's actually I hearken back to one of the panels we had last year that was uh stage manager moms. At the symposium, we had seven different ladies, all professional Broadway stage managers with great careers, who have kids all the way from toddlers to off in college, talking about their struggles and challenges and solutions that they were able to come up with to try to make it work and being a Broadway stage manager and still being able to balance having a life.

[38:40] Patrick Oliver Jones: With your jobs that you've had, are there ones that stick out to you the most either for good or for bad reasons, as far as like these are the examples of what to do, what not to do?

[38:52] Matthew Stern: Well, the Billy Crystal's tour of 700 Sundays, in some ways, was the hardest job I've had and the easiest job I've had. If you were on deck, you had four cues. It was places, bring Billy to the stage, end of the act, light him off stage, tell him the Yankee score. Then places for Act 2, welcome to the stage. Then end of the show, light him off stage and tell him the Yankee score. It was that simple. But when you were calling the show, as I alluded to earlier, it was really about trying to get into his head. And we had a lot of projection cues and a lot of sound cues, and you really had you couldn't sit back for a moment. It's like it's not, oh, there's the musical number. This is gonna happen on count seven.

No. It's like the button is not always coming on eight. You had to be in it with him. You really had to do the dance. It was you and him, and you had to be, you had to be, and sometimes if he had a great audience, he'd go on, you know, two and a half, two forty-five, three hours. And everyone's loving it, it's great. But you're like, okay, keep it going. Keep it going.

[39:46] Matthew Stern: Yeah. So that's a good example of that. There are some shows like Hands on a Hard Body, which we had such an amazing ensemble. It was such a great feeling, and we felt like we were saying something really special, talking about the American dream and the struggles of real people in our country. And it was a powerful statement. I thought how this truck became the symbol of what people needed in their lives, and we're missing um uh a hope in a way. And uh so the company was pulled together in such an amazing way, and because we didn't come out of the gate as a huge hit and the show struggled financially at the very beginning, the company was going crazy on social media and making videos and hanging out and trying to find ways themselves to spur interest in the show. Because everyone who came to see it loved it. Just not enough people chose to buy tickets about a musical about people standing around a truck. I don't know why. But it could be a tough sell.

[40:40] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yes.

[40:41] Matthew Stern: Yeah. Yeah. It was a, it was a so that was moving in that way that we really felt like we were all into something great.

[40:56] Patrick Oliver Jones: Going forward, what do you see as the next step in your career or in stage management? Because as the years have gone on, technology has certainly helped the stage manager and their job. And are there things that you see coming forward that will make the stage manager job easier or make your work easier and better?

[41:15] Matthew Stern: Philosophically, for me, with the symposium and with my teaching and um my mission is to try to get younger stage managers to understand earlier in their careers that 3,000 foot view of stage management. That what we do as managers and leaders is the real overarching sentiment of our work. Uh many young stage managers, myself included, come in like, oh, I love making paperwork and I make it beautiful and it's great. It's like that is wonderful. It's a tool. As soon as it's done, it's trash. Not to put it down, although it does sound like I did that. Um but it's a step, it's a tool. I've done Broadway shows where I come up with my nice, beautiful paperwork, I give it to the head carpenter. He says, that's great.

Can I just have a running order and I'm gonna write my cues down on the back of this flat? Okay, great. Right. So I could react like that, and I can say, okay, great. Here's the running order. Let's go. Or it could be like, oh, I put all my work and effort into that. Why does he not wanting to use it? Great, and that kind of attitude is not gonna help me make the show any better.

[42:15] Yeah.

[42:16] Matthew Stern: So understanding management, leadership, mindset, emotional intelligence, that is a huge, like that's a mission for me. And so I'm seeing that as where I want to take my own personal future and to do more of that type of education and set that kind of example. As far as the technology and getting more into the nuts and bolts, I've had conversations with friends of mine who are waiting to see when we stage manage via social media. Like when do we wind up like direct messaging our schedule? Or when are we posting the schedule on Instagram as a private account?

[42:50] Yeah.

[42:50] Matthew Stern: Yeah. Those things are out there. How we can harness it best is a real challenge. I know some stage managers get so proud of going all digital. I did my show without making any paperwork. That's great. It's a lofty goal, yeah. Until you didn't charge your device, and then in the middle of the show, you know.

[43:08] Yeah.

[43:09] Matthew Stern: Um, a great stage manager and friend of mine, Josh, we did a few shows together. He um he has a digital calling desk. So he doesn't do the call script on paper. He has a whole computer monitor and macros built in, and he's flying through, awesome. It's great, it looks beautiful, it's crystal clear, he's efficient, he's faster at it than he would be with pencil and paper. But I'm the sucker who was calling the show twice when the computer froze up. So then I take my backup print printed copy and I'm like, uh okay, we're here. Okay, good. You know, right.

[43:40] Matthew Stern: So as a stage manager, I don't want to add additional potential points of failure. And I have a much less likely point of failure having paper with the hard copies, yeah.

[43:53] Yeah, so it's kind of I used to be on the like, oh, new school's great, and now I guess I'm getting a little older and now I'm falling back over to old school.

[44:01] Matthew Stern: Um but I think the idea of being greener is wonderful. I know BGA, the Broadway Greed Alliance would be huge proponents of that.

[44:07] Right.

[44:07] Matthew Stern: Um but we also need to protect the show. So if I'm gonna be printing out a copy anyway, like then what is the advantage? Because I could switch over to the report and start working the report when the in the middle of a book scene before the next musical number. That's pretty cool.

[44:21] Patrick Oliver Jones: Is necessary? Not so much but it is really cool.

[44:25] Matthew Stern: I mean I know I think the stage managers over at Kinky Boots and I think Groundhog Day had this too where they had a database where you could input the show numbers from the call desk and it would go right to the database in the office computer and then you could send the report that much faster.

[44:39] Patrick Oliver Jones: Which is great.

[44:40] Matthew Stern: Get you out the door fast at the end of the night I'm all for that. Because when the show is over the show is over you deserve to be able to get out of that theater as fast as you possibly can as long as the job's done.

[44:50] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah because one of the things that I've used in cast before is the Facebook group the closed uh private Facebook group and I know that that's been a way that stage managers, directors, whoever is in the group can then communicate and it seems to be a quicker way until you don't check that group which happened to me sometimes.

[45:09] Matthew Stern: Like these whole conversations were going on about okay we're gonna be doing this doing do this but of course I'm either waiting on an email or waiting on this and I didn't realize that everything was in that group and so I missed a few things.

[45:22] Patrick Oliver Jones: That's interesting I hadn't thought about a private Facebook group which would be great.

[45:26] Matthew Stern: But then it's the job of the stage manager to make sure everyone is on board. And that's where you set expectations. Um, you know, sometimes we think in our mind, like, oh yeah, so we'll do it this way. But if I don't tell the company what the expectation is, it doesn't quite work. You know, that's people get upset or miss out on something. Um, that's one of the reasons in my emails, um, if it's sensitive information, I'll say, please reply that you got this. And then I set up the expectation, like first day of rehearsal. I will send out the email with the next day's schedule by this time every night.

[46:00] Right.

[46:01] Matthew Stern: If you don't get it by this time every night, it's on you to reach out to me. So this way, if there's a if I sent it out, but there's a technical failure, you don't get it for some reason, your Wi-Fi goes down, or you know, the internet tubes are clogged up, then I'll start getting calls that like, oh, I didn't get the schedule, I think the schedule. Oh, okay. Oh, look, it's stuck in my outbox. That happened.

[46:19] Yeah, yeah.

[46:20] Matthew Stern: Right. Technology can fail. So you what you set up the expectation. Not, oh, I didn't get a schedule, I must not be called. No, that's not, that's not what happens.

[46:28] Yeah, it's like, but you have to set up that expectation so that's very clear so everyone knows in the beginning. And that's where I think there's so much going on these days that sometimes we skip that very important step.

[46:39] Yeah.

[46:40] Patrick Oliver Jones: And as far as setting up expectation, uh what one of my last questions, I actually want to cover that difference between the ASM, the SM and the PSM, and the the that kind of that hierarchy of stage management. What what is the best way to describe that and how we actors can approach each of those different levels?

[46:59] Matthew Stern: Cool. Well, the simplest to start at the top, the PSM, the production stage manager, sometimes just called the stage manager, um, is the is the head cheese. They're the one in charge of running the room, making sure that all the communications happen. They're the captain Kirk of the ship.

[47:13] Exactly.

[47:14] Matthew Stern: Right. Now after that, it can get a little muddy because it depends on the nature of the team. There are some teams where the AS, the first assistant, the second assistant become are just subordinates, just doing as they're told. There are other times that they're empowered with a lot of free range, like this is your hemisphere, you deal with all the props, that's gonna be all your whole world. Anyone has questions about props, they're gonna come to you, anyone that's present with costumes, they're gonna come to this other person. It could be set up like that. It could be set up where the PSM is just a supervisor. I'm gonna deal with the director, you guys deal with everything else. And anything information I get, I'll flow down to you guys, but you're gonna you're gonna do that.

Other ones, other PSM will hold everything really tight and delegate tasks. You do A, you do B, you do. So it's really hard to give a global idea, but the PSM is the head, and then when that when that person is out of the room, the first assistant would step up. You know, it's kind of you know the next man up.

[48:06] Right, right.

[48:07] Matthew Stern: Um and then some shows have one ASM, two, three, four, I mean Spider-Man, we had seven stage managers altogether. Now I assume with that, each of them have their specific job or area of expertise that they stuck with.

[48:20] Matthew Stern: To a certain point. Um I joined the show already when it was already running, so I came into a uh it was running already, did not go through production with it, which I thank God for that.

[48:29] Matthew Stern: I interviewed for it, and it's one of the jobs I'm really glad I didn't get.

[48:32] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah.

[48:33] Matthew Stern: And yet I was still fortunate enough to come into the show later on to actually work on it, which was a great experience. Because with seven stage managers during the run of the show, and me being the lowest one, I would come in at the same time and I'd sit there, and everyone else would have things to do. I'd be like, "You need any help with anything?" All right, I could help you carry the inserts out. Want me to pull some sliders? If in a show running smoothly, it's fine. But when you're in tech and in production, you had one stage manager running stage right, one running stage left, one running the basement, one running everything that was happening overhead. That's four already. You've already surpassed your Broadway musical minimum.

[49:09] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah.

[49:10] Matthew Stern: You have one show caller on the lighting book, you have another show caller on the scenery and flying book. So there's six.

[49:17] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah.

[49:18] Matthew Stern: Right. Then you have to have another person to supervise all of that going on, right? That's your PSM as being able to take care of everything. So seven stage managers on the show.

[49:29] Patrick Oliver Jones: Wow.

[49:30] Matthew Stern: Yeah, I can only imagine keeping all of that running fluidly. Because having seen the show, yeah, there were so many different elements. And any one of them going awry, then the show kind of stops. You know, whether it's the projections or of course the harnesses and the flying and I mean anything, and the show stops.

[49:51] Matthew Stern: In those sequences where you have all that technology moving, that's exactly how it was built. And everyone had to, you had the right thing had to be said at the right time in the exact right sequence, or we just stopped. And everyone knew that going in. This had to happen, then this, and you knew your script. And it wasn't just the show callers calling the scenery and the lights. Deck stage managers were calling cues, deck carpenters were calling cues, all just to get all the flyers ready, because you have to bring the line in, get them clipped, take tension, and then the actual cue to take them out. So you had an, and this was all memorized. You didn't have time to look down at notes.

[50:25] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, yeah.

[50:26] Matthew Stern: You knew that after this person said their thing, you had to be ready to do your thing, and then you waited for the next thing to happen and then the next thing. And yeah, it was intense. But then the other times it's like, oh, they're just singing a romantic love battle. This is great. I'm sitting backstage and hanging out.

[50:38] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah.

[50:38] Matthew Stern: It was like any other show, but then when those moments would happen, you felt the entire building just focus in, zoom in, here it comes, Spider-Man, New York debut, and there it is.

[50:49] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah.

[50:50] Matthew Stern: Yeah, but yeah, but I mean, yeah, it's because it sounds like a big, a big colossal undertaking, doesn't just with every show. Cause it because like you said, each cue had to go with one, and that that's again that symbiotic relationship of the actors knowing the lines perfectly and stepping in the right place because an inch or two off, and then you're falling off of a lift or something.

[51:12] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah.

[51:13] Matthew Stern: Yep. Yeah. I mean, that's why I said earlier, stage management and the theater is not brain surgery until it is. And knowing when you switch over is a really important thing for stage managers, because we need to be able to change the timbre of the room. Okay, this is great, we're having fun, and it's jovial and wonderful. Okay, now we're gonna talk about the scene where we hang four people. Okay, now we're focused. Like, I'm not cracking any more jokes, I'm not making any more bad puns, and goodness knows I know a lot of bad dad jokes, and but this is not the time for that.

[51:43] Matthew Stern: So like doing Dr. Javago, we had a scene where we hung four people. It's like, okay, this is a time where we're gonna listen in. We have a fight choreographer, we have a flight director, that let's figure out all the safety protocols and procedures and go step by step through this.

[51:58] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, and then we can go back to being in a play.

[52:00] Matthew Stern: Yeah, right, right. And then we can go back to the play.

[52:04] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, yeah, that's one of those things that we were talking about, how technology is great when it works, but you have to have like fail-safes and ways to keep going.

[52:13] Matthew Stern: Yeah, and figure out ways to, you know, when it's not working. Yeah, one of the things we used to talk about at those drink nights was like if I had a dollar every time a carpenter told me, like, oh, this'll never happen, this will never fail. Like, no. Invariably at some point, it'll never go past its ten. It'll no, okay. That's great. Yes, I agree with you, until it's not. Until it does. So we need to have an understanding of like when this fails, we know what we're doing. How do we signal a stop or whatever that is to protect everyone and not break any scenery any worse than it already would be broken?

[52:44] Patrick Oliver Jones: Now, as we wrap up here, one of the things that I love that stage managers get to do is like whenever I was on tour, we've gone through the rehearsal process, we've opened in a city, directors have now gone, and now we're just in the travel of the tour. And we get to understudy rehearsals, or you know, you're putting someone into one of the principal roles or whatever it is, and now the stage manager is the director. And so how is that kind of switching the hats going from stage manager and now you're directing a scene, giving notes and making sure that character choices are being made and all that?

[53:19] Matthew Stern: Yeah, depending on where you're coming from and what you're personally comfortable with, that can be either a lot of fun or terrifying.

[53:26] Patrick Oliver Jones: True, yeah, it depends on your background directory.

[53:28] Matthew Stern: Some stage managers are much more technically oriented, they're much more on interactive people. Some of them are much more into the creative process. So it can be, it depends on the individual. I love understudy rehearsals. I think they're a lot of fun. When I was on Le Miz as the second assistant, my job was to teach all the young Cosettes, young Epanines and Gavaraches, and then the first assistants would do the Mariuses and the Lovers and then the PSM got to do the Daljan Jaber. So that was a really fun way to get introduced to the idea of directing and putting people in. I just had the kids, they had a couple scenes.

[54:00] Patrick Oliver Jones: Right.

[54:01] Matthew Stern: It was great, right? It was a lot of fun, and I got to hang out and play and like, and then we go here, and then I get to play the Madam Tenardier and you know, push a little young Cosette around and stuff. We had a good time, but it was a great way to kind of get introduced in how you talk to actors. And coming from being an actor background made it a lot easier. I can understand motivation and Stanislavski technique and Udahagen. We can talk about that if you want. But you also be quite efficient because you only have those two, maybe three days of four or five-hour rehearsals in your week to do it.

[54:31] Patrick Oliver Jones: Right.

[54:32] Matthew Stern: Which can be challenging. When I was, I took over as a on the town, I did the last six weeks as the PSM. Every week we had to put in two new actors.

[54:42] Patrick Oliver Jones: Oh my gosh.

[54:43] Matthew Stern: Yeah. It was the real, like the show posted notice and everyone started leaving.

[54:47] Patrick Oliver Jones: As happens.

[54:49] Matthew Stern: It yeah, I've closed many shows.

[54:52] Patrick Oliver Jones: Um, I guess.

[54:53] Matthew Stern: Is that a sign?

[54:54] Patrick Oliver Jones: Is that a sign that?

[54:55] Matthew Stern: Yeah, for a while for a little bit, I was the people started calling me the Mariano Rivera of Broadway. I was the closer.

[54:59] Patrick Oliver Jones: Oh, right, yeah.

[55:01] Matthew Stern: Yeah, if you came in, you knew the show was going down.

[55:04] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, when I joined Finding Neverland, that's they really thought that the show was gonna close. Fortunately, it did not post notice while I was there. I left, then they posted notice, but I did come back to close it.

[55:13] Patrick Oliver Jones: Right.

[55:14] Matthew Stern: Right. So reputation does hold. But that idea of directing can be a lot of fun. It's where you get to exercise a lot more other creative muscles. But you still have to be creative in interpreting the director's vision. And as a stage manager work with many times Linda Marvel, she's amazing. And one of the great things she does is she's very sensitive in the rehearsal process to how the director is directing, how they're talking to the actors and what they're saying to them.

[55:40] Matthew Stern: So the point would be like during tech, if the director goes on stage to talk to an actor, she'd send me on stage, go stand next to them and turn your mic on. Tell me what they're saying. You know, really that sponge of absorbing like how is the director talking to this actor about that part, and then you translate that, okay. How do I talk to the understudy actor about that part?

[55:58] Patrick Oliver Jones: Right.

[55:59] Matthew Stern: Because it's not just about putting that actor in, it's about getting that actor to hit all the marks like the other actor, but still be able to be themselves in the part. Because no one, that's the tough part about being an understudy. You're fulfilling a role, you're fitting into shoes that have already walked it, have already done it, and you just need to be that. But at the same time, you still want to infuse it with some of your own isms.

[56:25] Patrick Oliver Jones: You don't go into being an actor just to be a robot.

[56:27] Matthew Stern: Right. Not at all. So one of the things we'll try to do if we're getting someone ready is like first know the ABCs. You'll get to do the acting, but first know the words, know the places you go, know the special marks to hit, make sure you're safe in whatever things you have to do. Then we can go and do that other stuff. So it really is a layering. So you take the whole rehearsal process, you go, okay, we've got two weeks to do this whole thing. Learn your music, learn your choreography, learn the backstage traffic, and then we'll do the blocking, make sure you have all that, and then we'll start to layer in the scenework.

[57:00] Matthew Stern: I can get an actor in the show to keep the show running and still rehearse. Okay, that was great. Last night you hit all your marks, great. You learn some new things. Every time you go on stage, you learn new stuff. Next week we'll have rehearsal with some other of the actors, so you're acting with them and not just me.

[57:14] Patrick Oliver Jones: Exactly.

[57:14] Matthew Stern: So you can layer that stuff in. You know, I've done understudy rehearsals like on Les Miz, where it's like, I have to play Javert. You know, and you know, where that's kind of fun, you'll get to live out a childhood dream. It's like, yeah, the Valjean would prefer to have an actor. Like I, a better example would be when I had to be Fontine in a rehearsal.

[57:31] Patrick Oliver Jones: See, yeah, yeah, there you go.

[57:32] Matthew Stern: That was quite unfortunate. And the music director actually had some vocal notes for that.

[57:36] Patrick Oliver Jones: And some notes for you though.

[57:37] Matthew Stern: I was like, I've two of my best here. I'm just trying to fill in. I kind of love that whenever a stage manager steps in and you know, I mean, they're on book, and the rest of us are off book, obviously, but they're like being in character, they're actually giving us stuff to work on. Something is better than nothing.

[57:52] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, exactly.

[57:53] Matthew Stern: And again, it does juice it up a little bit. It's that it's different enough that we actually have to listen.

[57:58] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah.

[57:59] Matthew Stern: And so that can be a lot of fun. I've especially on a long-running show. Understudy rehearsals were so much more fun than actually running the show. You get to dive in and enjoy.

[58:10] Patrick Oliver Jones: And true.

[58:11] Matthew Stern: I hear back to Les Miz again. It's one of my, you know, Les Miz and Full Monte are my really long runs. But when you have a source material like that to dive into, you can really get into the dramaturgy of it and talk about where these characters are coming from and what they were experiencing. Like this isn't really in the play, but you can use it to play the play.

[58:30] Patrick Oliver Jones: So we talk about some of those things.

[58:31] Matthew Stern: And that was, you know, our dance captain on that show had been there for many years, had a lot of institutional knowledge to share, and to listen. So when he's putting someone in, hear all that information coming out. Then when he's on vacation and I have to put in another male swing, like, yeah, oh, I remember all that stuff Scott was saying, so now I can, and then we I'm sitting there and be like, I don't know what the bet dudes does in this scene. We'll watch it tonight, and well, then we'll compare notes tomorrow and see how right, yeah.

[58:56] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, sometimes you have to do that.

[58:57] Matthew Stern: Yeah, it's process. If you can embrace the process, as long as you get this is one of the overarching jobs we have is get the best show on stage every night. The best show possible, the possible being the important part. So if you can get an actor up just so they can keep the show open, that's good. Then you can add the next step, then you could add the next step. There are just so many levels and layers to the stage manager's job, both professionally, technically, as well as artistically and creatively.

[59:27] Patrick Oliver Jones: So it's certainly a multi-layered job.

[59:29] Matthew Stern: And it sounds like that that's a lot about what the symposium is understanding each of those layers and being able to accomplish all of them.

[59:37] Matthew Stern: It's a lot of fun. I think about it like the world's largest stage management office. And we go inside and we close the door and we laugh and we cry, and there's no judgments, and every question is a good question.

[59:46] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah.

[59:47] Matthew Stern: Well, thank you for answering my questions today. It's been a joy to have you on, Matt.

[59:51] Matthew Stern: Oh, my pleasure. It's great. I love the stuff.

[59:57] Patrick Oliver Jones: To find out more about today's guest and listen to previous episodes, go to the website, winmepodcast.com. There you will find ways to follow and connect via Twitter and Instagram, as well as a way to support this podcast. As always, thank you for joining me on this episode. And don't forget to subscribe and review on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast app. Currently the podcast has five stars, which I am so grateful for. Until next time, keep making it, and I'll see you there.