This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Patrick Oliver Jones: The art of performing is certainly filled with joy and passion and can offer a creative fulfillment not found in many other professions.

[0:09] Patrick Oliver Jones: But as this podcast highlights with each episode, there are also underlying bouts of stress, anxiety, and frustration that can come with being an artist and offering our personal creative selves to others.

[0:24] Patrick Oliver Jones: And as much as I thoroughly enjoy bringing guests on this podcast to talk about similar subjects, I also enjoy talking with others about these important topics.

[0:35] Patrick Oliver Jones: And so last year, in the midst of a pandemic and theaters still shut down, I joined Mostafa Ashraf and his co-host Yara on their podcast called Mental Talk, where we discussed performance anxiety.

[0:48] Patrick Oliver Jones: The show is produced by a nonprofit organization called Advice Seekers, which aims to provide help in the areas of mental health and online anti-bullying campaigns.

[0:59] Patrick Oliver Jones: I'll be back with another regular episode next week, but for today I wanted to share with you this candid discussion with Mo and Yara about my own struggles with doubt and worry and what I do to push through that.

[1:15] Mostafa Ashraf: Hey guys, welcome back to another great episode of Mental Talk where we talk about everything mental.

[1:20] Mostafa Ashraf: Today's episode is again about anxiety and just explaining anxiety, talking about it and uh anxiety and performing.

[1:29] Mostafa Ashraf: Obviously, I have Yara here, my co-host, and we have an awesome guest with us, Patrick Oliver Jones.

[1:36] Mostafa Ashraf: So today we're talking about anxiety again, and uh it's a really important topic, especially that Patrick here is an actor in musical theater and uh in New York.

[1:46] Mostafa Ashraf: Uh, can you tell the people a little bit about yourself and where can they find you?

[1:49] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, I am uh here in New York City, uh, an actor for uh professionally for almost 30 years.

[1:58] Patrick Oliver Jones: And it's uh it's it's been uh a schlag to say the least.

[2:02] Patrick Oliver Jones: You know, a lot of highs, certainly a lot of lows as well.

[2:05] Patrick Oliver Jones: But it's certainly something that fortunately I I feel very, very blessed to call myself a full-time actor, which is not something that a lot of actors can do as far as just making a living solely off acting.

[2:17] Patrick Oliver Jones: Uh I've I've had my side jobs, but I've been very blessed to to work at it full-time and and make a living off that.

[2:23] Patrick Oliver Jones: And as far as where to find me, uh my preferred choice is Instagram.

[2:27] Patrick Oliver Jones: I've I've gone through the Twitter and Facebook, but Instagram is kind of where I love to be and and where I tend to connect the most.

[2:34] Patrick Oliver Jones: So that's P-O-J NYC.

[2:37] Mostafa Ashraf: Awesome.

[2:38] Mostafa Ashraf: Um, I also heard that you have a podcast that you do.

[2:41] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yes, yes.

[2:43] Patrick Oliver Jones: Uh for about uh the last four years, I've been doing a podcast called Why I'll Never Make It, which for the last year has certainly taken on new meaning for us actors, but it it really is about people just from all different aspects of the performing arts profession and get their takes on why this business, this industry is so special to them, but also what makes it difficult, what keeps them going?

[3:06] Mostafa Ashraf: That's awesome.

[3:07] Mostafa Ashraf: I did hear uh a couple of uh episodes.

[3:10] Mostafa Ashraf: I I love it.

[3:12] Mostafa Ashraf: I love the title of it.

[3:13] Mostafa Ashraf: It just makes it so real.

[3:15] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, it's a title that people either kind of cock their head and go, wait, what?

[3:20] Patrick Oliver Jones: What why would you say that?

[3:22] Patrick Oliver Jones: And then other people kind of laugh and and they get it.

[3:24] Patrick Oliver Jones: They they know what I'm talking about.

[3:26] Mostafa Ashraf: Yeah.

[3:27] Mostafa Ashraf: Exactly.

[3:27] Mostafa Ashraf: All right.

[3:28] Mostafa Ashraf: Well, I mean, without further ado, let's talk a little bit about anxiety.

[3:31] Mostafa Ashraf: And and starting off with you're obviously a performer.

[3:34] Mostafa Ashraf: Uh, how does you know anxiety uh affect performers on like a daily basis?

[3:41] Patrick Oliver Jones: I would say that the the biggest way that it it affects us, and and I certainly talk about myself mostly in the form of self-doubt, in the way that am I good enough?

[3:54] Patrick Oliver Jones: Because it's so easy to compare ourselves with other actors, with other performers, with other people that are making it in this business.

[4:01] Patrick Oliver Jones: How do I compare with them?

[4:02] Patrick Oliver Jones: Where do I match up?

[4:04] Patrick Oliver Jones: Am I making the right money?

[4:05] Patrick Oliver Jones: Am I doing the right roles?

[4:06] Patrick Oliver Jones: Do I have a big enough resume?

[4:09] Patrick Oliver Jones: And so the self-doubt about how we're doing in this business, I think is one of the overarching anxieties that a lot of actors particularly go through.

[4:19] Patrick Oliver Jones: And I know for myself, that comes into play both in the audition room, you know, because that's when you are the focal point, there's people behind the table, they're just staring at you, waiting for you to make the magic happen, and hopefully you'll get cast, you know.

[4:35] Patrick Oliver Jones: But as it goes, 95% of the time, you are not going to get cast.

[4:41] Patrick Oliver Jones: So it's the it's a very small percentage rate of auditions that actually keep going to you eventually being cast.

[4:48] Patrick Oliver Jones: So it's it's one of those things that it's constant rejection, constant rethinking, constant uh ways to uh to doubt yourself and to wonder if if if you're good enough, wonder if you're doing the right things, wonder if you know you're going to get that next job, wonder if you need to be doing something else.

[5:09] Patrick Oliver Jones: So it's uh there's there's a lot of ways in which this business can uh can really make you uh question yourself.

[5:17] Mostafa Ashraf: Okay, Patrick, I have a question for you here because something about this is very interesting.

[5:21] Mostafa Ashraf: How do you show up every time for the next audition whenever you don't get a role?

[5:26] Mostafa Ashraf: So let's say you went to an audition and you didn't get the role for that part, for example.

[5:30] Mostafa Ashraf: So how do you get up the next morning and show up for another audition with all the anxiety that you'd be going through and feeling like you didn't make it?

[5:39] Mostafa Ashraf: So why would I even bother showing up, for example?

[5:44] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, I will say that, you know, but pre-COVID, whenever auditions were a normal thing, especially here in New York, and I will say that here in New York, it's almost a blessing because there are so many audition opportunities that in some way that makes it easier.

[5:59] Patrick Oliver Jones: Because say I'll have three auditions this day, but I have two the next, two the next, for the next, you know.

[6:06] Patrick Oliver Jones: So there's constantly a new influx of new auditions.

[6:10] Patrick Oliver Jones: So there's almost no time to really focus on one audition to have that be the end all be all.

[6:18] Patrick Oliver Jones: So in many ways that kind of helps because one audition is just another, is just another, and you just kind of keep doing that week after week.

[6:25] Patrick Oliver Jones: Maybe you'll get a call back.

[6:27] Patrick Oliver Jones: Oh, great, it's kind of a bonus.

[6:28] Patrick Oliver Jones: And then you actually get cast in a show.

[6:31] Patrick Oliver Jones: That's even the cherry on top.

[6:33] Patrick Oliver Jones: So I will say that being in New York has helped, it does help with that anxiety because there's just so many auditions.

[6:40] Patrick Oliver Jones: But there are those times when, especially when it's maybe the winter time when there's fewer auditions, and maybe I haven't worked for three, four, five, six months, that the one or two auditions you get a week, they start to mean a little bit more.

[6:57] Patrick Oliver Jones: And you can start to put a few more of your eggs in that one basket and hope that that comes along.

[7:03] Patrick Oliver Jones: And I will say that for that I try to look at them in the same way that I look at it when there's 17 auditions in one week, as as opposed to just one a week.

[7:03] Patrick Oliver Jones: I try to look at them the same because the job of any actor is to audition.

[7:20] Patrick Oliver Jones: We get to perform and that's a great perk of being an actor but our main job is really to keep auditioning because like I said 90 95% of the time that's all we're doing is auditioning.

[7:32] Patrick Oliver Jones: So there is that joy of working on a particular song or a scene and getting to them perform that for a few minutes in front of people.

[7:42] Patrick Oliver Jones: I I there's one particular time where I got to audition for the Harry Potter play.

[7:47] Patrick Oliver Jones: And I I'm I'm not you know I'm not necessarily perfect for any of the roles but at the same time it it's it's a great play obviously being a part of Harry Potter that has its own kind of magical wonderment but for four minutes I got to to take on a role and I got to be Malfoy grown up as an adult and I got to be that part I got to give my take on that character.

[8:13] Patrick Oliver Jones: So for those three or four minutes I got to to be him and I was the only one being him at that particular moment in time.

[8:21] Patrick Oliver Jones: So it it's those little things that you can kind of walk away with and even if you don't get it there's still some joy to be found in just the act of getting to portray these characters even for a few minutes.

[8:33] Mostafa Ashraf: I love this a lot because it focuses a lot on living in the moment and I just love how uh you're portraying anxiety as if it's it's a healthy part of going through the process.

[8:44] Mostafa Ashraf: Or it's sort of like it's it's part of the package and the the the trick here is to not focus on it and more of like be in the moment and be present and enjoy whatever that you have for for that time being.

[8:59] Mostafa Ashraf: And if you do get it, then that's really good news.

[9:02] Mostafa Ashraf: If you don't, then there's plenty of fish in the sea, and you can just keep going on and on and on and on, and then it's just part of the process.

[9:09] Mostafa Ashraf: So I really love how you're handling the whole situation, to be honest.

[9:13] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, I mean, it it really is uh with this profession in particular, rejection, that nervousness, the anxiety, that is just it's just a given.

[9:23] Patrick Oliver Jones: And so yeah, there are times where where that nervousness can actually help you, you know, like you're you're you're excited about a role, and so it makes you kind of dig in deeper, prepare yourself better, so that the more prepared you are, hopefully the less nervous you'll be in the audition or in that performance.

[9:43] Patrick Oliver Jones: But at the same time, there's still those times, even in the midst of having having work.

[9:48] Patrick Oliver Jones: I remember one of the times when I was uh I was working for Disney cruise line and I was getting to play Jafar in Aladdin on on board the ship.

[9:57] Patrick Oliver Jones: And but still at the same time, I you know, when I wasn't performing, which was only uh uh just a couple of days, two or three days out of the week, the rest of the time, which sounds like great and wonderful.

[10:10] Patrick Oliver Jones: I I'm on vacation, I'm on a ship and I get to do this, the that.

[10:14] Patrick Oliver Jones: But as far as the performing, as far as the the satisfaction, I I still felt like, well, what's next?

[10:22] Patrick Oliver Jones: Like I I didn't feel fulfilled at that particular moment.

[10:27] Patrick Oliver Jones: And I thought about well, maybe maybe I should leave New York, maybe I should.

[10:31] Patrick Oliver Jones: I I basically wanted to find a way to be comfortable again and not feel like I was constantly looking over the next horizon, looking toward the next hurdle, trying to overcome this or do that.

[10:42] Patrick Oliver Jones: I wanted to find an easy way to just be a performer and have it just be comfortable.

[10:47] Patrick Oliver Jones: And there are definitely those times where even I have to kind of talk myself through those.

[10:52] Patrick Oliver Jones: And it's uh it's not always easy to uh to be satisfied with this job that is so uncertain.

[10:59] Patrick Oliver Jones: But um yeah, but it it's it's it's a matter of kind of even pushing through those tough times to know that there is going to be a light at the end of the tunnel.

[11:08] Mostafa Ashraf: Well, yeah, first of all, I really want to thank you for raising uh a flag on a very uh important topic that I'd like to discuss with you today, which is high functioning anxiety.

[11:19] Mostafa Ashraf: So basically what you just described, the feeling that you just described is high functioning anxiety, where basically a person would be uh someone who shows up early for work or he'd be getting places, they'd be doing something that they enjoy, but at the end of the day, they'd still feel this feeling of unease or being uncomfortable or feeling that there's something, there's always something to worry about.

[11:40] Mostafa Ashraf: And I feel like it's important to talk about this because not a lot of people are aware of this because we've been introduced to a certain stereotype of anxiety where it just means that I'm having any type of a panic attack, or there's this just like physical symptoms, but not a lot of people are aware of high functioning anxiety anxiety, that it is there, and you can be someone who shows up to work every day, you can be someone who's getting cases, you can be someone who's doing actually something that means a lot of a lot to them.

[12:12] Mostafa Ashraf: And at the end of the day, they're still feeling anxious about it.

[12:15] Mostafa Ashraf: And to be honest, it's pretty normal.

[12:17] Mostafa Ashraf: I feel like all of us sort of like go through this, but nobody talks about it, or nobody it's it's it's out there, it's like an elephant in the room, but nobody is aware of how this relates in some way or another to anxiety.

[12:31] Patrick Oliver Jones: So there's a lot to learn from your experience, to be honest, because whether you're an actor, whether you're a doctor, whether whatever you're doing, at some parts of the day, people still have this nervous feeling of that they're not enough or they're not doing a lot, for example, or they could be better in one way or another.

[12:50] Mostafa Ashraf: So, what would you suggest that whenever I'm having this feeling, even though I'm accomplishing a lot of stuff, how can I handle that? So if you can just like take me through your routine, talking to yourself whenever you're in one of those moments.

[13:02] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, yeah, I think it's really interesting that I hadn't heard that particular phrase before, high functioning anxiety. But that really is what I think the not necessarily the most successful actors, but I think the ones that stick it out the longest, the ones that don't end up maybe falling off and deciding on another career, but the ones that stick with it the longest, I think find a way to, as you say, function through that anxiety. And there was a class that I took with Joanna Gleeson, she's a famous actress on both Broadway and TV film. And I took a class with her, and there was one thing that she said that really stuck with me, and she addressed this idea of going to auditions and either you just don't get booked, as I said, which is the most common thing, or maybe it was just a bad audition, like you just didn't do well.

And she said that there's a way to deal with it in the fact that you can't just slough it off. Like because particularly actors, we're giving of ourselves. We're a particular character, we're singing an emotional song. There’s a part of ourselves that is in these auditions that is in these performances, and so to be rejected and have that scene that is not good enough, it is a part of ourselves that can be rejected as well. And she said, you can't just slough that off. It has to be acknowledged. And she said, take 20 minutes, take what, take a moment in time, acknowledge that you can beat yourself up, you can be angry, you can be sad, you can cry. There needs to be a way to address it, acknowledge that rejection, but then you have to put it aside.

So it's basically a way of letting your heart kind of go through the five stages of grief in like 20 minutes, go through it all, express it, and then let it go on to the next audition, on to the next performance, whatever it is. Because it, as I said before, it does somewhat get easier when you're especially when you're in a performance, that you know you have the next show, you have the next show to make up for whatever mistakes you did, you have the next audition to make up for whatever the last audition was. That there's always that next thing that's coming your way where you can be good again, where you can be proud of the preparation and the work that you've done. So I think that's one of the things that's definitely helped me in both acknowledging it, but then being able to move on to the next.

[15:42] Mostafa Ashraf: Well, yeah, what I really love about this is that adding to what you do, like a huge part of solving or getting through whatever anxiety attack that I'd be getting because of a certain rejection, would be definitely acknowledging the situation and like speaking my feelings out, but adding to that, what I usually use to do in whenever I'm going into another audition, for example, or whenever I'm going into another job with an interview or something like that, is always telling myself what's the worst that can happen. I got rejected before, I still showed up, I'm still here, I'm getting a new opportunity. So, what's the worst that can happen? Like I went through this before, I can definitely do it again.

And every single time I come with sort of like a different experience that makes me more material, understanding my emotions more, understanding how I react in those situations. And for some one way or another, you'd always get an extra part of like getting to know yourself more and those high-functioning anxiety attacks that term. But it's definitely important to acknowledge the situation. Definitely that's 50% of the work, and another 50% of the work is like always reminding yourself that you've done that before, you can definitely do it over and over and over again over a hundred times until you can perfect it. So, yeah, I totally agree with you.

[17:03] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, I would say that you brought up a good point about getting to know yourself, that that's a big part of the process. And I think that for any actor, but I think for anyone in life, that the more you know yourself, the more that you're in touch with who you are as a person outside of your job, outside of this anxiety-filled profession or task that you have to do, to know yourself apart from that is so important. And I know that the times whenever I felt the most anxious about something, is whenever I forget that I am separate from that audition. I am separate from that performance, that I have worth and value and contribute to things that are outside of the performing world. But whenever all I do is focus on, well, it's a Broadway audition.

I have to get this. I want this. I want when all when it consumes me, then I don't have any room to feel or think about anything else. And so of course, then it's going to be even more nerve-wracking to do that audition because I'm putting so much pressure on myself and so much expectation in how that audition can come out.

[18:22] Patrick Oliver Jones: And speaking of auditions, one of the topics I love talking about most with guests is their own adventures or misadventures inside the audition room. Now, once a year I do present a compilation of audition stories, but there are so many more that never make it into those episodes. So if you'd like to hear each and every story from my podcast guests, then consider subscribing to the members-only feed of Why I'll Never Make It. You'll get bonus episodes and special content, not available anywhere else, all for one low monthly subscription, which helps support the ongoing work of this podcast. So join today at why I'll never make it.com and start listening to even more audition stories. And now back to my conversation on Mental Talk with Mo and Yara.

[19:16] Patrick Oliver Jones: Right now, we're what we're talking about is getting anxiety when you first step up to the plate and getting auditions. What I want to kind of divert our conversation to is something that happens to a lot of people, happened to me before. I've been in a couple of plays. I love acting. It's something that I love doing. I love filmmaking, I love all that kind of stuff. And it's always been my hobby. Um and I remember the first play I was ever in, I had performance anxiety, and it's when you can't perform because of all that, you know, panic, all that stuff, everyone looking at you and stuff like that. So I want to kind of divert it to you and ask you, how can you get over performance anxiety? Can will it ever go away? Or every time you get into a new play, every time you go on to theater, every time you go on to a show, it will happen again and again and again. And then also, are there any tips to kind of help you through that?

[20:15] Mostafa Ashraf: Well, as far as the nervousness, the anxiety, I think it is something that's going to be present. There are certain shows where I don't have the anxiety, whether it's a show that maybe I've done before, so I'm doing it again, so I know that show a lot better, that I'm less nervous about that. But you know, still, anytime you're in front of an audience, that all it takes is that split second of, you know, you're having dialogue with the scene, and all of a sudden you start to kind of, you know, an actor's brain, we're always like two or three lines ahead, just kind of like going through the script in our brain as the dialogue is happening, so we know we have a flow, and then you kind of reach a point where you're not sure what that next line is.

It's all of a sudden your brain can't remember it. You're in the dialogue, and there's that split second where you don't know, and then your mouth starts saying the words, and then you're back on it again. So that certainly happens. So I think even if you know what you're doing, if you know a show in my particular case, you know, a show that I've done over and over and over again, that for whatever reason, that particular moment, that particular day, the line wasn't there, but then eventually it came in. So the anxiety is always going to be there. And as far as dealing with it, I think that a big part of what I love about acting is that now I've never done a solo show. So there are these one-person shows where you are it for an hour and a half.

But even within those one-person shows, and certainly within bigger shows with bigger casts, it's all about teamwork. It's relying on and knowing that you are collaborating with other artists, whether it's the director, the choreographer, your fellow actors on stage, it really is a team effort. And there have been those times where an actor said either a different line or didn't know what they were doing, and I was able to kind of ask them a question to get them back, or times whenever I forgot my line and someone covered for me, and then we got back into the scene. There is this give and take of knowing that you have people around you to support you. And I think that's one of the biggest things to rely upon.

And I think that's another reason why actors in particular, we get we become family so quick. Within the third day, we're already acting like brothers and sisters again. You know, we're it's and so there's definitely a family atmosphere because we have to trust each other so much when it comes to our performance. And I think through that, I've certainly been able to push past some nervousness and moments where I certainly wasn't at my best on that particular day, but other people were able to support and lift me up on that at that particular time.

[23:16] Mostafa Ashraf: And you know, that's the best part is that even everywhere you go, like you can't you don't have to say in theater and movies or anything like that. It can be like going in a study group or at school or university or college or anywhere like that. When you're sitting with a group of people for a great amount of time, working together for a long time, you get used to them. And slowly, slowly you get kind of you know interacting more. You become a family in the end of the day. It could even be online, like you can meet lots of online friends and you know, hang out together. So moving on with that, let's talk about anxiety out of performing. And you know, when have you ever like experienced anxiety outside performing? Let's go with that.

[24:02] Patrick Oliver Jones: Um yeah, I would say that that probably shows up mostly in my relationships. Certainly when dealing with other people, whether you're just starting the dating out again or or you've been in the relationship a long time, there can certainly be a lot of anxiety when it comes to saying the right thing, to presenting yourself the right way, you know, especially those first few dates, you know, you want to put that best foot forward. And that can be in many ways approaching someone maybe for the first time, maybe it's at a bar or now it's online, or however you're meeting someone, that initial contact is kind of like an audition.

[24:47] Patrick Oliver Jones: It's kind of like, okay, well, I kind of know what I'm going to say, and how are they going to receive it? Will they like what I have to say? Will they like this person that I'm presenting? And so that's probably where my own anxiety has shown up. It is a performance of sorts, because as much as we, you know, they keep saying, be yourself, you know, be the real you when you're meeting someone, but inevitably you're going to showcase the best parts. You're going to be this kind of heightened, wonderful sense of yourself whenever you're especially meeting someone for the first time. And so for me, it's interesting that I've noticed that the people that I'm most nervous around, the people that I have the hardest time being myself and being comfortable with, those relationships have never worked out.

Or we never started dating. But the people that it almost was without thought, it was something that I didn't feel that nervousness. I didn't feel an expectation. Those were the relationships that tended to be the deepest that lasted the longest. So that anxiety can be kind of a telltale sign of am I in the right place? Am I with the right person?

[26:07] Mostafa Ashraf: Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's also about where you put yourself at the end of the day. You have a great family, great wife, great husband, great, you know, family, just great atmosphere around you. It's all about everything around you. And some people might say, well, you know, that's being selfish, caring about everyone around you rather than caring about yourself. No, it's more of if you're surrounding yourself with bad people, you're gonna most likely end up going that way. If you're gonna surround yourself with people that are full of hate towards you, then you're just gonna have hate towards yourself. You're never gonna like yourself for you if you have everyone around you not believing in you or not the right people to be around, you know what I mean?

[26:49] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, yeah, because that voice inside of us can be the loudest voice of all. It doesn't matter whether you're in a tough environment or a loving environment, you know, that our inner voices are really going to battle with us. They're going to either pump us full of ego and then we kind of become narcissistic, or they'll pump us full of just pushing us down, and who do you think you are, and then you just feel worthless. So having the best kind of people around us can only help when our inner voice isn't at its best. Because I know that for me, as we were talking about before, that self-doubt that can come in, that's when that voice is at its loudest and I listen to it the most. And even though it's saying things that, you know, if I hold myself away as like, well, that's not reality at all.

That's not what I do, that's not how I really am. But in that moment, when that voice is all we hear, then it's so important to have people around us that can be a voice of reason that can remind us of the value and the worth that we bring.

[28:01] Mostafa Ashraf: 100%. I mean, I couldn't have said it better myself. I just believe that if you honestly want to help yourself and want to kind of go in the right direction, you will end up going in the right direction. Because again, the voice in your head is your voice, it's not anyone else's voice. No one is gonna, you know, force you to do anything you don't want to do. It's all in your head, it's all you. And you just sometimes have to listen to yourself.

[28:30] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, yeah, because that gets back to what we were talking about earlier about knowing ourselves. That if you've taken the time to really get to know who you are outside of these tasks, these professions, the career, you know, all those things that are important, but they're not who you really are on the inside as a person. So the deeper the better that you know that true self, then when your voice comes along, that inner voice says something that it doesn't quite match up with who you know yourself to be, it's easier to pick it out. Whereas if you're unsure of who you are and your inner voice says something, you might believe it because, well, maybe I am like that. So yeah, and I will say that that's something that as COVID has happened, I've really had my own struggle with as far as now that my acting and performing and that part of myself has been stripped away. Oh my gosh, who am I outside of that? It's been a time to really figure out what I mean to myself, what I mean to the people around me outside of this business.

[29:48] Mostafa Ashraf: Yeah, exactly. I mean, that's exactly how I want to, you know, keep in mind, people, you know, what we're saying is about everyone, you know, like we're not targeting performers only that, you know, only celebrities feel this. No, everyone feels this way. You know, yes, we have Patrick Oliver Jones, you know, the biggest actor in the world here, but you know, in the end of the day, he feels it, I feel it, Yara feels it, everyone feels that. Now I do want to talk a little bit about you. I have this team, I call my little CIA team. They like to deep dive on people's Instagrams and socials and everything. And they found out a very interesting thing about you. You're married to an actor as well, right?

[30:32] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yes.

[30:33] Mostafa Ashraf: Yes. So can you tell us a little story about how you guys met?

[30:33] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, we met through a mutual friend and we just kind of got to talking. If at first, to be honest on my end, it was a physical attraction. So it's like, oh, okay, you know, he seems nice. I think, you know, I was certainly getting the vibe from him the same thing. So it was definitely physical attraction, something very casual. I invited him to my place for dinner. I do like to cook. So, and he was just very taken aback by someone who wanted to cook for him. So that was a good way to start off. But what started off very casually began to, I would say within three, four months for me, began to mean something differently because I had been single for a while. I had come out of a long-term relationship that just, if I'm being honest, it just wasn't right from the very beginning.

But I stuck with it, maybe hoping it would do something, but it just wasn't really right. And so with Dylan, that's my husband's name, with him meeting him and getting to know him, I started to kind of, these emotional things that I hadn't felt in a while were starting to awaken. And so for me, I knew there was something else there. This wasn't just casual, let's keep it easygoing, whatever. It started to mean more. So I would say within the first few months, I started to definitely feel a closer attraction, a closer meaning to our relationship.

[32:17] Mostafa Ashraf: Yeah, and fortunately I stuck with it. It took him a little while longer to realize, I think, how good we were together. I kind of had to wait on him, but eventually he caught on to it as well.

[32:30] Patrick Oliver Jones: So you got married in 2018, correct?

[32:34] Mostafa Ashraf: Yep.

[32:35] Patrick Oliver Jones: All right, and you met in 2016. Don't worry, we know everything about you at this point.

[32:43] Mostafa Ashraf: I bet you do.

[32:44] Patrick Oliver Jones: I bet you do. And I just love that, you know, you're both actors, you both, you know, you seem like really, really such a cute couple. Um, and here's my question. Has he ever had anxiety on something and you helped him out in something, or he's helped you out in something? Like, what's the kind of relationship at work like related as, you know, I mean?

[33:09] Mostafa Ashraf: Well, and I don't think he would mind me saying, but anxiety is one of those things that he medically and emotionally deals with. It is something that he's had panic attacks, so that is something that is more heightened with him. It's something that he's had more of a struggle with than I have, even though we've certainly, as I've been talking about, we certainly both have dealt with it. But for both of us, we deal with our anxiety a little differently. Whereas I am comforted, for example, by statistics, by numbers. And so for me to know the fact that 90-95% of my auditions aren't going to go anywhere, that gives me comfort. So it's like, okay, if I don't make it, well, then I'm matching the numbers.

Then I'm where I should be. This is normal, it's all good. For him, that kind of statistical analysis doesn't really work. It's much more of an emotional reaction for him. So, you know, I'm still kind of learning because, as you said, we've only been married a couple of years, we're going into our third year now. So we're still kind of getting to know each other. But I know that for him, me comforting him with, oh, well, this is normal, or this is how it normally is, or well, X, Y, and Z is how you do that, that for him, that does it. For him, he likes to talk it out. He needs me to listen. So I've certainly gotten better at listening. And I think we're both slowly, we're still a work in progress, but I think we're slowly trying to kind of figure each other out in the best way to be that support for each other.

[34:43] Patrick Oliver Jones: One of the goals of Why I'll Never Make It is to not only showcase that you're not alone, that the struggles, the setbacks, the challenges that you're facing are something that other actors and other creatives go through. But in showcasing that, I also want to be a resource for how you can manage your life and your career at the same time. At whyillnevermakeit.com, there's a list of artist resources that you can check out. Some are products and services to help you in your career, others are ways for you to connect with coaches or teachers, or ways that you can actually work on yourself and work on the craft. So head on over to the website and click on artist resources or look for the link in the show notes.

[35:32] Mostafa Ashraf: Are you appearing in any theater shows soon or is it just really, really low because of corona?

[35:40] Patrick Oliver Jones: There is a project that I was working on. It was going to be, I believe it was going to be a film at first. So this was pre-COVID. And then they were going to start production and COVID shut that down. So about a month ago, we had our reading of it. The writers, producers, director, they gathered the cast again together for our first reading of it to start to get this undergoing, and they're now looking at it as more of a series of episodes. So they revamped the script. I think coronavirus and just all the social things that have happened over the last year have made them rethink how to write the script. So it's called Imposters and it takes place on a college campus. I'm a professor, like a dean of the school.

So there's a dynamic there, and my son is of a different race and also goes to the college, so there's that aspect of it. So they're trying to bring a lot of different things into what this story could be, and that's something that's in pre-production right now. So hopefully, over the next month, then we'll start to be able to get behind the camera and get that going.

[36:53] Mostafa Ashraf: All right. Well, I'm gonna wait, I'm gonna wait until it comes out, and then I can, I'll be like, oh yo, yeah, I just, I you know, I had this guy as a guest too. Like, yeah.

[37:02] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, we know a celebrity.

[37:04] Mostafa Ashraf: Okay, so Patrick, I want to go back to dealing with anxiety in relationships because I've had a lot of friends who have anxiety, but they complain a lot from their partners that they don't know how to handle it, or they feel like they're not understood, or they feel like their partners always make it seem like they're overreacting.

[37:26] Mostafa Ashraf: So, what advice do you have to give all the couples out there who have like a partner who is anxious all the time or who keeps getting anxiety attacks? What's your secret handling in a relationship?

[37:41] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, as you say the question, it's a question that I've had. And so, you know, as I was saying, Dylan and I were still a work in progress as we're two or three years into this marriage and still getting to know each other. But I will say that I think what sustains us is, you know, and this is something that we have to remind ourselves about, but also remind each other is that there is an underlying foundation of love and care for each other. And I think in moments of anxiety, it is easy to forget that the other person that we're staring at that doesn't seem to be getting us really isn't our enemy. They don't get us, and they may be saying something wrong or doing something wrong, but there has to be that underlying reminder of, but this person does love me and is with me and wants to help me.

[38:37] Patrick Oliver Jones: I know that I myself have tried to help Dylan and I've helped in the wrong way. I know that Dylan has had the best intentions, but what he did did not help me in that moment. So I think there's going to be a lot of those moments. And you know, believe me, he's gotten frustrated, I've gotten frustrated, so that's, you know, there is no way to just have this magical utopian relationship. But I think that as long as I'm aware that he is trying to help, even though it's not in the best way, even though I may be trying to help, and it may not be doing what I hope it is and helping him, I think there's an understanding between both of us that there is this love, there is something that binds us together apart from the anxiety.

[39:33] Patrick Oliver Jones: Again, it kind of gets back to what I was saying before. What are we outside of this frustrating moment, outside of this tense anxious time, what are we to each other? And that has to be there so that you have something to fall back on. Because if all your relationship is, is this anxious frustrating thing, I mean, that might tell you something about where this relationship is headed if it is headed somewhere. But it gets back to the love that we have for each other.

[40:11] Patrick Oliver Jones: And I know that I will often listen a lot more than I speak. Believe me, I'm someone who likes to voice my opinions, so that could be hard sometimes, but listening to me has been the best way for me to know him better. And I think that as long as I continue to listen more than I interject or speak, then I think that's gonna help me in the long run when the time comes when I can speak and help. I hope that that will enable me to help him in a better way.

[40:46] Mostafa Ashraf: Well, there you go, guys. The key is being aware. I feel like everything goes back to being aware. It's either being aware that the other person is trying to help you, you're aware of their intention that they're trying to help you, even though they're not doing it in the best way. And the other part is that being aware of how your partner wants to be helped. Listen to them to ask them, is it okay to hold you? Do you want me to listen? Do you want me to just stay quiet and hold your hands? It's just like being aware in general. I feel like it solves a huge part of the problem.

[41:18] Mostafa Ashraf: So thank you for saying that, Patrick. And you know, we do have around seven, eight minutes left in our episode. Really, really upset that we're gonna, you know, end this short. But I'm 100% sure you're gonna, yeah, yeah. If you don't want to come back on another episode, you're coming back on another episode either way. I'm happy to come to New York and record it there.

[41:42] Patrick Oliver Jones: I like that.

[41:44] Mostafa Ashraf: Yeah, I mean that would be awesome. That would be really cool. You gotta write that down. But no, like seriously, I think that it's such a weird thing to say because, you know, normally looking at celebrities, you're obviously thinking, oh, they have the high life, they're, you know, they're rich, they do whatever they want, they're always acting on TV, they always have that kind of face that you're like, oh no, they're happy. But in real sense, they're people. They're people that feel anxiety, they're people that get anxiety, there are people that get panicked. They're real people at the end of the day and that's not what people understand. There's a stereotype against performers where they're okay all the time and that's not true.

And I thank you for coming here today and really, you know, breaking that stigma because at the end of the day if people don't want to understand that, hey, if I'm a performer, I get anxiety. If you're a doctor, you can get anxiety. If you're a lawyer, you'll probably get anxiety. If you're myself, I'm a hundred percent anxious at all times. So, you know, at the end of the day, people get it and you need to kind of understand more. And if you don't understand, educate yourself, read about it, Google it.

[41:48] Mostafa Ashraf: Yeah, I mean research it. There's so many things that you need to kind of understand with it as well as if you really need to, you know, research about anxiety this whole month on our, you know, Facebook page we're gonna have all posts about anxiety so you can check it out yourselves. But yeah, I mean at the end of the day anxiety is something that everybody feels, everybody gets. Now Patrick, before we say our goodbyes and you know, we kind of get people to where you're at, what's one final thing you want to kind of address about anxiety with performers?

[43:52] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, in my own podcast, the kind of people that I interview, they're people that have been on Broadway, big TV shows. And as you said, they have made it, they have this great, wonderful career success, like you know, they're living the high life. But yet in each of my conversations with them, they all have that moment where they feel empty, where they feel alone, where they feel like, oh my gosh, am I ever gonna get it again? Am I, you know, they had one big show and it's been five years. So what's coming next? And that goes with someone like Justin Guarini from American Idol. It was so interesting to talk to him about in the midst of that whirlwind of American Idol, and he's living the dream that so many singers want, and he has all this attention, and yet he said it was one of the most loneliest times in his life.

And then there was another girl, Caitlin Kennen, who had this great Broadway show and then went five years before she got another one. And during that five years, she did audition, she tried to do, but nothing was happening. So we all have those moments where even if we've achieved this high level of attention and outward success, that doesn't mean that inwardly that we're going through it as well.

[45:20] Patrick Oliver Jones: So I think if I wanted to say anything, it's do not compare yourself or think that, well, everyone else has it going right. It's just me. It isn't just you. You are definitely not alone, even if, even though I know you feel alone, you are not the only person going through this. Know that what you're going through is common to all of us at one point or another. And so if there's any solace in the fact that you may be physically alone, maybe there's no one you can reach out to, but know that I've gone through it. The people that I talk to and worked with have gone through this. And so it's not something that you need to compare yourself to others and be like, I'm so much less than them or undeserving, or I'm just in a worse place than they are. You're not. We're all one big brotherhood and sisterhood of people that have experienced the exact same thing.

[46:21] Mostafa Ashraf: Exactly. I mean, I literally have chills, man. It just, it really like it just, it gets to you because at the end of the day, we're all humans. We all get the same thing. You know, we're all given the same thing, we all feel the same thing, and lots of people feel it in different ways, and that's okay. You know, some people like to, you know, get over their anxiety by binge eating, some people like to get over their anxiety by sitting on Netflix and watching, you know, a series of, you know, I mean, I've been honestly, let me just be honest. I've been watching this show on Netflix called Somebody Feed Phil.

[47:01] Mostafa Ashraf: I know I've seen that. I haven't watched it, but I've heard of it, and I've heard of it.

[47:04] Patrick Oliver Jones: So good.

[47:06] Mostafa Ashraf: So good you can watch it.

[47:07] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, but just popping down in front of Netflix with a medium-sized pizza and eating all of it, sometimes that is what you gotta do. And I've done it.

[47:18] Mostafa Ashraf: Exactly. So go ahead, order that pizza, get it, and just, you know, just have fun, just have a night, right?

[47:27] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, yeah, just handle it the way you want to.

[47:30] Mostafa Ashraf: Exactly. All right. Guys, you know, it's been a great episode. I mean, today has been a lot different than, you know, our normal episodes because we always like sit down and talk all seriousness, all about, you know, anxiety and mental talk and mental health and all that stuff. At the end, I just want to point something out that this episode is really important because I don't want to go in my future and think, hey, I missed out on an opportunity to talk to someone about performers, because at the end of the day, I always wanted to be an actor. I always, you know, I've been in so many plays, I've been in so many things. I'm a videographer, a photographer, and all that stuff, and I just love that stuff. And for me, not knowing what other performers feel with anxiety or depression or all that stuff just makes me feel not human because they're humans too, and they probably feel the same thing. So it's been an honor to have you on with us.

[48:26] Mostafa Ashraf: And I'm gonna, I'm waiting for that invitation for that movie premiere. And I'm just, you know, I'm just, I will let you know.

[48:32] Patrick Oliver Jones: I'm waiting for it, even if it's a virtual one, you know what? Just don't just tell me where to watch it, right?

[48:37] Mostafa Ashraf: In this day, but that'd be anywhere.

[48:39] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, honestly, at this point, I don't know where Corona's taking us, but that's a conversation for another time. Thank you for everyone listening in. You can always get our podcast every Sunday, literally everywhere you can hear it. We're also gonna be publishing it on Facebook as well. But yeah, so stay tuned to that. And Patrick, thank you so much for joining us, man. It's been a great honor to have you on the show.

[49:00] Patrick Oliver Jones: Thank you. It's been a great conversation.

[49:02] Mostafa Ashraf: All right, let's all say bye to them, like really, really childish and weirdly. Bye.

[49:09] Patrick Oliver Jones: Bye.

[49:12] Mostafa Ashraf: There we go. That's perfect. Patrick, man, thank you so much for coming in, dude.

[49:17] Patrick Oliver Jones: Absolutely nice. Nice to meet you both virtually.

[49:20] Mostafa Ashraf: Yeah. It's been a pleasure.