This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Patrick Oliver Jones: Welcome to Why I′ll Never Make It, a lighthearted podcast that takes a revealing look at a career in the entertainment industry, featuring stories and interviews with those onstage and backstage, on screen and behind the scenes. I′m Patrick Oliver Jones, and this is Why I′ll Never Make It.

[0:33] Patrick Oliver Jones: Hello, Patrick here. Thanks for joining me on another episode. I hope you′ve had a good week. Mine has been pretty good so far. It′s been full of rehearsals for a show that I′m doing, as well as a few auditions and even callbacks thrown in. So I′m having a pretty good week myself, but I certainly wanted to take a little time and bring you another episode.

[0:59] Patrick Oliver Jones: You know, one of the wonderful things about living in New York is the subway. Now, not the actual subway experience itself. The MTA, as it′s called, is a—I′ll just be honest—it′s a pretty crappy organization, and they don′t really run the subway that well. But when it is running, being on the subway is actually a pretty good thing. You know, it′s better than having to drive yourself everywhere, because driving in the city would be pretty crazy. And it gives you a chance to listen to music, listen to podcasts—hello!—as well as read books, read articles, and stuff like that. And one of the things that I happened to read up this past week was a couple of articles dealing with the placebo effect.

[1:43] Patrick Oliver Jones: One was on CNN, and the other was in Psychology Today. CNN just did theirs last month, and Psychology Today was actually from a couple of years ago, but they were both dealing with the placebo button. That button that we press, whether it′s the pedestrian crosswalk or the close-the-door button or thermostat controls, there are a lot of buttons in our lives that have no purpose other than giving us the illusion of control. And these buttons aren′t connected to the actual system that we think they are sometimes. It′s basically a way for us to—we′re in a hurry, so we press the button. You′ve probably done this yourself. Say you′re waiting in an elevator. You see the light on, yet you press it again.

This is the placebo effect. It′s a way for us to feel like we′re in control. Same with that pedestrian crosswalk button. They said in this article that thousands, thousands of these pedestrian buttons are no longer connected to anything. They′re from a bygone era when traffic was less and we as pedestrians could actually control traffic. Now it′s all on a computer algorithm and based on a timing that has nothing to do with who′s standing at a crosswalk. But these buttons remain, and psychologists are saying that they give us a sense of control. They give us a sense of I′m doing something. I′m taking charge. And even though it′s a minute later when that door closes on the elevator, when that green man says walk, then we get the sensation, the feeling that I was in control. I helped make that happen. And it just reinforces the behavior over and over again.

[3:27] Patrick Oliver Jones: So what does any of this have to do with performing or being in the arts? Well, the placebo effect is often what I feel like auditions are like. Do you feel like this? Do you feel that you go into auditions time and time again? You do the same thing. You′re pushing the same buttons. You′re producing the same song types, character types, motivations, choices. You′re doing kind of the same things over and over again. And then we finally get cast, so it′s like, well, that must have been it. So I need to keep doing that. So we keep doing the same thing over and over again. But then seven other times, eight other times, we don′t get cast. But that one time is the one that reinforces what we do. And often it just feels like the auditions are leading us nowhere, are leading us down, I don′t know, that we′re just filling time, that it′s not really accomplishing anything.

And so for me, I go to these auditions. I keep showing up. So, you know, it just reinforces me going back again and again and again. Is this something that you find as well? It doesn′t ruin the experience of the audition, but to me it just puts it in a perspective of how little control I really have when I step back and think about it. As much as I go to these auditions, a lot of times they′re just a perfunctory exercise of being a performer and don′t really lead to any real action.

[5:05] Patrick Oliver Jones: Now we get to the reason I am still here. And I share some of my personal experiences when it comes to auditioning or performing or directors I′ve worked with, composers, different things. And so professionally, I′ve certainly shared some of my life, but I haven′t shared a lot of my personal life. And one of the biggest things, if not just recently, but in my life, has occurred is I just got married. And thank you. I know you′re thinking congratulations. So thank you. I just got married and he and I have been together for two years. One of the reasons now that I am still here is because of him, is because of a relationship. And you know, whenever you′re single, I mean, think about whenever you′ve been single, then life is just kind of like you′re doing whatever you want.

You′re going out. You′re doing the auditions. Everything is kind of on your own. You′re solo. And it can be fun because you have a lot of freedom when it comes to your time, but also whenever you book that job, whenever you have a great audition, whenever you don′t have a great audition. You know, you can call up your best friend, but there′s no one there that′s every day, all the time, that′s there for you to share those ups and downs with. But now that I have him, then the reason I′m still here is because he supports me. He encourages me. And then there′s also just the function of now I′m going somewhere else, and I need to pull my own weight financially, professionally, in the sense that now both of us have pooled our resources together, and we have to make a living.

We have to pay for rent. We have to pay for clothes and food and whatnot. So he is now a big reason, a big motivator that keeps me going, whether it′s a temp job or whether it′s being an extra, just, you know, back, back, back, way back in the back of a crowd scene extra. Whatever it is that I can do to make money, to bring something into this relationship, to keep busy, then I do that. Before, when I was on my own, I didn′t really think about that. It′s like, okay, I work, I save up, and then I′m able to kind of keep myself going until the next job, and so on, so on. But now I have to not just wait till the next job, I have to fill my time between these jobs. And in some ways, that′s a bit more pressure on me to not only book work, but just keep working.

It′s also a joyous reason why I want to work, and that is for him, for us, to provide and bring everything I can into the relationship in order for us to be the most productive, the most financially sound, and the most together that we can be.

[8:15] Patrick Oliver Jones: Up next, we have one of my favorite people in the world, Mike Wartella, and he is the best. And he is not only a great performer, but just a wonderful person all around. He′s one of the funniest and most easygoing people, but he has this energy about him that is always infectious whenever I′m around him, and it′s always a great time whenever he and I get a chance to hang out and be together. Well, recently, we had one of those chances, and he came over to my apartment, and we just sat down and talked. He talks about shows and shows that he′s looking forward to doing, but also what about those times between shows, and juggling a family, and making sure that his son is a priority in his life. So all of these things come together into the life that is Mike Wartella.

[9:10] Patrick Oliver Jones: Mike, thank you so much for joining me.

[9:25] Michael Wartella: Of course, buddy. No problem.

[9:28] Patrick Oliver Jones: So let′s just get the ball rolling. What is it that first introduced you or got you interested in theater itself?

[9:34] Michael Wartella: Yeah, I was pretty lucky. I guess lucky in quotes, right? Lucky or unlucky. Yeah, air quotes in that. My parents were both actors growing up, so they were both like.

[9:43] Michael Wartella: Theater?

[9:46] Michael Wartella: Yeah, theater, like more on the amateur scene back home. I grew up in the Berkshires in Massachusetts, and they were like doing a lot of regional and community theater back then, and so I think the first show I did, I was three years old. I was in Christmas Carol as Tiny Tim. Didn′t we all have a Christmas Carol?

[10:02] Patrick Oliver Jones: I think so.

[10:03] Michael Wartella: I think every actor had that Christmas Carol experience.

[10:05] Patrick Oliver Jones: Oh, yeah, because I did it then, and then eventually in my professional career, did it at the Denver Center and played other roles, and so I just always think of it as the seasonal favorite.

[10:13] Michael Wartella: Yeah, my first Christmas Carol was in high school doing a radio show version. So it was like a 1940′s radio with sound effects and everything, and everyone rushes up to the mic.

[10:23] Michael Wartella: See, you′ve always been in this profession.

[10:24] Patrick Oliver Jones: Right.

[10:26] Michael Wartella: So that was my first attempt at it, and my parents never pushed me into it in any kind of professional way. I think they just saw that I had an interest in it, and I really didn′t think of it. I thought of it as a hobby through most of school. I was picked on a lot as a kid because I was short, and so the way I got out of that was to be the class clown and making jokes.

[10:47] Michael Wartella: Make them laugh.

[10:48] Michael Wartella: Make them laugh and get on stage and do the stuff no one will do, and so I really liked it, and then it wasn′t until I was like 14, 15. I was doing high school musicals and things like that, and we took a class trip down to New York to see Rent on Broadway, and I think it was a couple of years after the original cast, and that blew me away. I already knew the soundtrack a little bit, but when I saw that, I was like, if I can do that professionally, that′s it. Because I grew up on a lot of the classics, and I loved the classics. I loved 42nd Street.

[11:21] Patrick Oliver Jones: Right, and Rent was a departure from all that.

[11:23] Michael Wartella: Totally.

[11:24] Michael Wartella: Absolutely.

[11:25] Michael Wartella: So, that was kind of the moment I got the bug and then said, all right, I′m going to spend the rest of my high school career gearing up mentally for Broadway and hoping to get into a theater school and all that.

[11:36] Patrick Oliver Jones: Before seeing Rent, was it a thought? Was it an interest?

[11:39] Michael Wartella: I mean, honestly, looking back, it probably was always the only thing I was ever going to do, but I think when you′re a kid, you just don′t think about any of that. I think when people used to ask me, I remember this, when I was like three, people would say, what do you want to do when you grow up? I was like, I′m going to be a fireman. But by five, it had already shifted to, I′m going to be a stuntman, which I still haven′t gotten to do.

[11:59] Patrick Oliver Jones: A stuntman?

[12:01] Michael Wartella: I wanted to be a stuntman.

[12:02] Patrick Oliver Jones: Now, where did that come from?

[12:03] Michael Wartella: I just saw them doing all the cool stuff in movies, and I was like, I want to do that. I want to jump off a building.

[12:07] Michael Wartella: Exactly. And then by like seven, it was like, well, I want to be an actor who does his own stunts, which is really probably too mature an answer for a seven-year-old.

[12:14] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yes.

[12:16] Michael Wartella: But yeah, I think I just always maybe knew somewhere down deep.

[12:19] Patrick Oliver Jones: So then you saw Rent, and you said that clicked something in your brain. What made you want to go down that path?

[12:25] Michael Wartella: I think it was the rock and roll element. I really think it was like, because I also, another thing my parents were doing growing up was they were children′s folk musicians. They toured the country. My stepdad is David Grover, and he had a little following for years, and my mom was in the band with him, and they would tour. So I grew up like, I heard my friends say they learned how to sing in church. I learned how to sing as a kid in the recording studio doing harmonies to folk albums.

[12:48] Patrick Oliver Jones: Oh, so you would join in on the recordings.

[12:50] Michael Wartella: Yeah, totally. Because he wanted that kids′s′. He toured with Arlo Guthrie back in the day, but he was very sort of, what was that guy′s name, Rafi. He sort of had that vibe.

[12:58] Patrick Oliver Jones: Oh, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[12:59] Michael Wartella: So yeah, he always wanted the kids′ chorus, and I would do duets with him and all these things. And it was very James Taylor, very sort of.

[13:06] Patrick Oliver Jones: So you really had no option but to be a performer.

[13:08] Michael Wartella: I grew up with these performing parents. But again, the cool thing about them was that nobody in my family was ever doing it for the money, which none of us have any money, so that makes sense. But they were doing it for the craft, and so it was never about like, go do it and be famous. It was just like, it′s what we had to do.

[13:26] Patrick Oliver Jones: So did they have side jobs themselves, or were they kind of eking out a living doing it?

[13:29] Michael Wartella: Yeah, no. My mom and dad were both waiters. They were making like $20,000 a year for most of my childhood.

[13:39] Michael Wartella: Did all this stuff for free, basically, you know. That was just their passion, their side hustle, their side gig, basically. Yeah, yeah. So when I saw Rent, it was like the combination of the music style that I wasn't as used to. I mean, I knew Jesus Christ Superstar. I actually remember seeing Tommy when I was little, that really affected me. So I was already in that mode of like, oh, I love this genre. But when I saw that, and it was so, at the time, kind of modern and spoke to our generation, I was like, I think it's probably what kids felt when they saw Spring Awakening like 10 years ago, you know? Right, right. It was something that was completely new and kind of was a splash on the scene as opposed to what else was on Broadway at the time. You know, it just got me all revved up and that was it. Because of that rock sound, that made you want to think, well, if that can be on Broadway, then that's what I want to do.

[14:30] Michael Wartella: Yeah, I think that's exactly what it was. It was like, you know, I by then already was kind of excited about like, well, maybe I'll go do, you know, the tap shows and the this, which I sometimes do too. But as you know, my friends always say, like, it's not my strong suit. It's just not. Oh, please, please. Hey, but you're doing it. No one goes to see a show to see me dance. Well, they're not going to see me tap because my feet just don't make that. They don't move in that way. Well, there you go. I know. Yeah, same with me. But yeah, I mean, but that I love to do. And I really wanted to, you know, rock was really kind of, I think at that point, it was almost like taking over Broadway and kind of starting that. I mean, there was always a place for it, but it really became much more fashion right around the Rent era.

[15:12] Michael Wartella: Yeah, I think because of Rent's message and also because of its unique sound and the story behind its creation and everything to do with it. Yeah, I just think it made an impact in a way that other rock musicals had been more like, oh, well, that's that's a one off. That's an oddity. It's an interesting, but musical theater was still more classical, traditional or epic at the time, like Phantom and Les Mis. Yeah, that was the trend. Yeah. So did you have any idea that it was going to be this hard, hard road? No, nobody tells you. I mean, they tell you and you don't believe them. That's really what it is. I it's funny you say that because I say that to people all the time. I teach a lot of classes now at like colleges, and I say that all the time where I'm like, you think it's going to be hard.

It's so much harder than you think it's going to be like whatever you think it is, prepare for much worse. Yes. And, you know, again, that's not everyone's story. A lot of people have a really easy, quick ride. A lot of people, it goes smoothly for them or it's a wonderful, enjoyable process. But I think a majority of us share the fact that like there's years of paying your dues. There's years of being poor and starving. I'm still poor and starving. I feel like, you know, like it's like, you know, and even if you like have money, if you come to New York with money, there's still the energy around it. You have to get on the subway, you have to walk in the streets, you have to deal with the people screaming at each other and, you know, beating.

I was on the street the other day walking through like this fight. I was in the middle of this huge like fight. I was like, oh, OK, well, yeah, good to see you, gents. I was actually doing an event near Times Square and I was walking through and this one guy was in this other guy's face because he was wearing a red hat. Yep. You know, it's all wearing a red cap and he went off on that. So for me, I feel like not only was the city hard to live in when I got here, but then, of course, the business is just hard to break into. It's hard for anybody. You know what I mean?

[17:07] Michael Wartella: And I told someone the other day that I had this sort of grand fantasy notion when I was 18 and I was leaving for, you know, college and I packed up my car and I was driving to New York and I was literally in my head thinking, OK, so I'll go to college for two years and then as soon as I get out, I'll get Rent on Broadway by like 20. It'll be great. Because that's how it works. That's what I was going to do, you know? And it was 10 years after I moved to New York that I had my Broadway debut and it was maybe eight years after I graduated school. And that, I think, is still relatively early for a lot of people. Like, I'm lucky that it happened at that point. I'm at the 10 year mark now.

[17:42] Patrick Oliver Jones: There you go. Yeah. Well, that means it's right around the corner. That means it's coming, right?

[17:46] Michael Wartella: Yeah, exactly. But, I mean, it was like, I was, you know, auditioning at open calls as a non-union person waiting in line until six in the, you know, from six in the morning. And then even after getting my equity card, which was a huge boost, I then was still doing the standard sort of open call audition thing, which is you go to the equity board. Right, right. It does bump you up a level. But at the time, you know, you still had to show up early in the morning because those who got there earliest got an appointment slot for the audition. And the trick I used to tell people was that I wouldn't go in often for the big, big shows. Like, I wouldn't go in for the Wickeds and the, like, Phantoms and stuff back then because there'd just be 400 people there.

Right. But I would go in for, like, flat rock playhouses doing Little Shop and there'd be, like, you know, 150 people. It'd be like, you know, a little less. And so you'd usually get an appointment. But yeah, it was still, it was always, you know, touch and go with everything.

[18:37] Michael Wartella: Yeah. I think I booked one thing in that time period. It was like a play somewhere, but it was hard for sure. And I went to hundreds. I mean, it was like, that's the thing they always say. When you first move here, that's what you have to do. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. And then I got an agent a couple of years after that, which was great. And sort of, you know, by many, many steps and luck. And I always feel bad. People are like, even friends of mine or like, you know, college kids are like, well, how do you get an agent? And I'm like, I don't know. There's no way to do it.

[19:04] Patrick Oliver Jones: I get the same question. And for me, I happened to know someone who knew someone in Vegas when I was working there, who got me into an agent. And that agent happened to have an office in New York.

[19:21] Michael Wartella: Yeah. And so, and so then when I came to New York, I at least had an interview, an audition for that agent. And then all the others have just been a cold email. I literally just emailed them.

[19:30] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah. And crossed my fingers.

[19:35] Michael Wartella: Yeah, totally. I've done that. Because you never know. It's totally random. Yeah. I mean, that's one thing that is so tough about this business and is one of the uncontrollable factors is that there's so much like luck, and you just kind of throw things out there, whether it's, whether it's an email to an agent, whether it's a hoping to show up at six o'clock in the morning to get an appointment.

[19:53] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, I agree. And it's very like, it's almost, you know, not to get too like meta on it, but it's very...

[20:03] Michael Wartella: Oh, we like meta.

[20:04] Patrick Oliver Jones: Oh, you like that? Good, then I'll go there. Okay, I'm holding my crystals. Looks like the incense. Right, we're dimming the lights.

[20:11] Michael Wartella: But really, it's like, to me, the universe works in a way that like, the more you put out there, the more you're going to receive. And so I think the hard part about the business is like, there's really only so much we can do. But there is a part of it we can do. And that's going to the auditions, that's pursuing the agents, that's like doing, you know, I meet a lot of people, and this, I think, is the hardest, hardest thing about New York, is that New York is hard, like I said, and you get your day job, you start bartending. And before you know it, you're drinking at the bar, and you're there every night. And you're like, I'll go to that audition next week. And I'll do this next week. And before you know it, it's been three years, and you haven't been to an audition, you know, but you moved here to be an actor.

And you're telling everyone you're an actor, but you're not an actor, you're a bartender, you know. And that's not to say that, I mean, I've been through those phases, too. There's no judgment in that world. It's hard.

[20:45] Michael Wartella: No, it just happens. But if you can keep a little bit of focus, and like, just and just know that your purpose here is for the goal. And you keep going at the goal, even if like, you're just way off from it. And it feels like it's a distant star in the distance. Like if you're going to the auditions, if you're meeting the right people, if you're going to the classes, doing whatever you have to do, I feel like then the universe will at some point open up and start giving it back to you, you know. And I think I've had a lot of people view even my story on both ends and be like, oh, well, he had a bunch of lucky breaks, or like, oh, he really worked hard for it. And the truth is, it's somewhere right in the middle.

It's like, I definitely didn't give up, I definitely continue to not give up when I want, you know, things to happen. But I also have had to throw my hands up to the universe and be like, whatever happens, you know, none of the jobs that kind of put me on the map in my career in any way were jobs that I thought I was going to get, that I sometimes was even really like hopeful or excited to get. It was always the other thing. It was always like, well, I want Spider-Man to pan out, but oh, that didn't happen. But I guess I'm in Tuck Everlasting. Like it was like, you know, and then here, you know, and it turns out it was a much better experience for me than who knows what Spider-Man would have been.

[22:00] Patrick Oliver Jones: But yeah, well, you might have lost a limb.

[22:02] Michael Wartella: Exactly.

[22:05] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah. So you kept all your limbs.

[22:07] Michael Wartella: Yeah, exactly. So I don't know. I think that's that's a lot of it. It's just, you know, staying focused.

[22:12] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, because that's that's one of the things that for me, you know, getting back to that 10 year thing that you're talking about, you know, I've been here 10 years now. And when I first got here, it was a lot of well, I know I'm going to make it's just a matter of when, you know, so I held on to that belief and thought of that. But after 10 years, that that belief can wane. And it can wane. Like I was ready to move back to Orlando, you know, it gets to that point where I don't want to feel like a failure. But I also want to be realistic and be like, well, if I don't do this, that I've worked for and wanted for these many, many years, then what what's next? Have you thought about what's next? Or what else you would do?

[23:43] Michael Wartella: You said move back to Orlando. I was like, I remember wanting to move to Denver about five years ago. Like I was because as you know, but they may not I have a son who's 10 years old, right? Amazing. Which has also been a whole challenge trying to navigate the business and that. But one of the things was that when he was about five years old, me and his mom were having a hard time. And we were like, blaming most of our hard times together on New York and the business and my career and all that stuff. And I had made some really good connections out of Denver at this theater company. And I said, should I just call them and see if maybe I could be more full time at this theater? And she's like, yeah, do that.

And we were like, putting the wheels in motion. I had like almost signed a contract with this other theater to be a permanent company member of this theater and move to Denver and call it a day. Be like, that's it. Here it is. And I probably would have loved that, honestly. But either way, I then got a call for the Rent off Broadway audition. And I had told my now ex-wife, wife at the time, I had said, I'm not taking any more auditions. But when this audition came in, I was like, as you now know, it's Rent. I was like, I've got to try. And she's like, of course, just go. And then I booked it. And I said, what do we do? She's like, well, let's move to New York, silly. Let's go. And so we did it.

It eventually unraveled us and we split up and all that jazz. But it really was like, I was about to throw in the towel for sure. And I still sometimes, I mean, I go through that all the time where like, I'm exhausted with New York. And quite honestly, I'm ready to go to LA or somewhere else where it's warm. But things are happening for me here still. And I still love what we do so much.

[24:17] Patrick Oliver Jones: Right. No, I've told that to people that if Broadway were anywhere else, I think I'd be happier. But because I'm really only in New York because Broadway is here. If Broadway were in Toledo, I'd be fine with that. You know, as you said, New York is kind of its own hurdle to get over. I mean, there's the auditioning. That's its own hurdle. The performing, the classes, the getting to know networking. The fact that it's cold for like 10 months a year.

[24:41] Michael Wartella: Right. The weather. I mean, like everything about the city from the living here to the weather is its own challenge to overcome. And then there's the business itself, which is, you know, the whole reason why we're here. So I think that being in New York certainly has its own drawbacks. It can push us away sometimes. As much as it's energetic and we love it, it can push us away sometimes. After years, I mean, you said like 10 years, it was the same thing. It's, you know, the years weigh on you. You know, and my friends that are like four or five years in, they still love it. And I loved it that many years ago. You know what I mean?

[25:10] Patrick Oliver Jones: I remember five years ago, I was still like, I'm going to make it. These casting directors, they don't know.

[25:14] Michael Wartella: But at the same time, what I will say, because it has also been my experience, and I'm saying this for myself too, with all my future goals that I've set out, but it's like, it's still to me really is true that it's basically the people who don't stop that eventually keep going and find it to where, you know what I mean? Even if that means 15 years in the future or 20, it's like, I know people who have like gotten, you know, have worked regionally nonstop, played great roles, done all this stuff, but never been on Broadway. And then like 20 years into their career, they get a Broadway show. And then sometimes they become like a Broadway name right after that. And it's so wild how that happens.

But I just think, and I've also seen like in turn, what really breaks my heart a lot, because I have felt this emotion so many times, but I have never given into it, is I've watched a lot of my friends too, in that place we're talking about where you kind of struggle and you're like, I'll just keep going for a little while. But they've kind of mentally given up. They've sort of like emotionally decided that they're not good enough. They're not going to make it. That's the other sick game that we play in our heads is that we're not good enough to do it because the validation hasn't shown up. I was convinced the year before I booked Rent off Broadway, even though it felt more like a Broadway show.

But the year before I booked that, I was convinced that I just wasn't good enough to do it. I was like, I'm not a good enough singer. I'm not a good enough actor. There's a little Broadway club and I'm not in it for a reason. And I actually, I always tell the story. I don't know if he's ever heard this before, but Adam Chandler-Brett and I, who are now buddies, didn't know each other before Rent. And I was waiting tables one day at Vinyl, and I looked out the window at a street fair and he's out there with Jen Damiano and they're like, you know, yucking it up. And I'm just looking at him like, Broadway guy, you know, like he thinks he's so cool. I bet he's a jerk, you know, like I was really...

[27:06] Michael Wartella: Of course, you want them to be assholes.

[27:07] Patrick Oliver Jones: Oh yeah. Because then it's like, well, well then of course he had to do that in order to make it to Broadway. I'm better than that.

[27:12] Michael Wartella: Exactly. And then a year later I get the show and we're like best friends. And I realized like, oh, I wasn't ever not good enough to do this. I just was A, standing in my own way and B, like life puts those obstacles up for a while. It's just how it goes.

[27:19] Patrick Oliver Jones: Speak to something that I've spoken about before on the podcast, and that is jealousy, looking at others, and that comparison. It really is deadly, and it's something that I catch in myself all the time, and I do my darndest to not give in to it, but it is just so hard to look at, especially friends who you know really well, and you also love, and you support them, but it's like, you know, well, they're getting it, and someone's gotta get in this shit, why am I not? So it's really tough.

[27:55] Michael Wartella: Well, I mean, look, I'll go on this rant too because I think it's funny. Our mutual friend, my girlfriend, Tessa Grady, I'll bring her up because she's one of these people who sometimes I even look at where I'm like, she's younger than me, she's been in the city less time, she's booked more Broadway shows than I have, she loves her life, everything's perfect. Now, she struggles too, clearly. I mean, I'm on the inside. I know she goes through it.

[28:19] Dr. Justin Marchegiani: Weeks of not working, weeks.

[28:22] Michael Wartella: But she goes through all the stuff. I mean, she goes through the demons of her own mind and her own career, and you know, climbing up the ladder, and the other people in the business, and all the stuff we go through, but the reason I'm speaking to her in a sort of a positive light is that I've really come to believe that like, one of the reasons she keeps getting this stuff happening is that she's manifesting like this good energy, and she's believing in herself on some intrinsic level. And that's that key thing. Walking in an audition room, sometimes it's naivete, sometimes it's like deep, deep connection to the universe, and everything in between. And I've done both. But it's like, you know, they want someone when you walk in, who's like, Hey, what's up?

You ready to do this? I'm ready to go. What do you want to do? Right? They don't want someone who's like, Hi, thank you for letting me come in today. Like, I hope, hope I do. Okay. I hope you give me a call back. Right? They don't want someone desperate, of course, right. And I think even from I think when we get to a certain level, we're all pretty confident. And there's that like, minus minuscule, like fine line, thing of like, some of like, I can feel it on myself, I'll go in for an audition, I'll walk out of like, that was it. I'll go in for one, I'll be like, Why did I not nail that? Like, oh, I kind of like freaked out a little, you know? And so whatever, but I just always use her as an example.

Because it actually made me realize that, you know, I'm always the guy who's like, well, it's hard, you're gonna have to do this, it's gonna be awful. And then there's like people like her that are this example that like, sometimes, it's not that hard, you know? Yeah, yeah. And yeah, some of us have to like jump over a mountain. And then other people have to like, step over an anthill. Exactly. To get there. But at the same time, they have their own sort of, I mean, I remember, you know, she's a good example. And so are some of my friends now who did Spring Awakening years ago, a lot of them had instant success, like in high school or college immediately. And now like talk to me, they're like, Oh, man, like, is your cover track open in that show?

Because I'd love to go in for it. And it's like, things change over time, you know, like, Tess actually had a lot of like early success, and then had a lot of setbacks early on that now have put her in a place of like, restarting certain things. And, you know, everyone's on their own path on their own journey. And so it's like, a weird thing. I just like her as an example, because even someone as jaded and bitter as me, who was like, man, this kid doesn't know what she's lucky to have, right? She has kind of taught me that, like, there's actually a mental space that exists that I think really helps and that sort of belief and trust in the universe and belief and trust in yourself and your own passion, the reason you came here in the first place.

And I think the more we hold on to that, and the more we like tap into that, and stop letting the city and the business kind of get in our heads and get us down, the more successful we're going to be.

[30:50] Because ultimately, we do have to get back to the basics about why we're doing this. Like, do you love to sing? Yes, well then sing. Do you love to be a character and tell a story? Then tell the story. Yeah, like that was the transition that I had to go through because I came here, Broadway was the goal. I worked toward that. I was auditioning. I was going to the one-on-ones and the class, like, that was the goal. And then over the years as that didn't happen, then I started to be, okay, well, maybe I need to do this. Then I started trying different things. And then over the last, I would say, couple of years, then it got to, all right, I need to finally start doing what I enjoy. Just do the work.

If it means that I go to this regional theater and get to do Man of La Mancha for 300 bucks a week. To me, that's manifesting in the same way. I say this all the time, but it's like, don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining. I've been very lucky. But honestly, some of the Broadway shows I've done in my career have been the least enjoyable creative process for me of my career. And the ones I've done out of town or regionally or off-Broadway have been these beautiful soul-fulfilling, enriching experiences. And I think there's a real thing to, you're saying it perfectly, which is like, we also can get too distracted with the goal of like, I want to be in a certain place. I want to be on Broadway.

I want this many followers. I want my name here. As opposed to, what did you get into it for? What was the fun of it? If you follow the fun, it's like they say in the music business, they're like, don't try to write a hit single. Write music that speaks to your heart. And if it's true, a thousand people, a million people, however many people will listen to it. You know what I mean? And it's the same with this. I think what happened even to me was I was trying to get to Broadway in my early, early twenties. It wasn't going well. I wasn't doing well. I was too focused on that goal. I went out of town regionally. I got much more comfortable doing some of the best work I've ever done in my career, having the most fun doing all of that.

And then I came back to New York being like, okay, well, that's what I'm in it for and we'll see what happens. And then boom, boom, boom, things opened up. So I do agree with you. I think that's, every day, for some reason, the city and the business really like to, it's been the consensus, every person I've ever talked to, whatever age, place in their career, whatever, the consensus is that the city gets in our heads and it starts to bring us down and it starts to make us look at all the superficial stuff.

[33:09] How many followers do I have? Is my name above title? Did I get this show? Am I the cover or the swing or the standby? It's like all these things that don't really matter. I was watching this news program and someone put it so succinctly. They said, the grass isn't greener. It just uses a better filter. That's really all it is. It's like we're looking for that thing, but really it's just a different filter. It's a different angle. It's a different journey that someone else is on. So for us to compare and look at in the distance, it doesn't apply to us.

[33:42] We never know what people are going through anyway. We're always comparing. I did it for a while too with celebrities or these people in our business that I was like, oh, they're so whatever. Then I'd work with some of them and be like, oh, they got demons. They got things. There's always stuff. I remember when I was in my early 20s, I literally thought, I was like, well, if you get to Broadway, you have a house and a car and a boat. It's great. I thought it was a boat that came with Broadway. I really did.

[34:08] I mean the house, but the boat. As long as you get a boat.

[34:12] Then I got here and I was like, how come I still can barely pay my bills? It's not, like you said, grass is always greener.

[34:21] Patrick Oliver Jones: So we've drifted.

[34:22] Michael Wartella: Yes, I'm sorry.

[34:23] Patrick Oliver Jones: No, no, no.

[34:24] Michael Wartella: I do that.

[34:25] Patrick Oliver Jones: I know. I love that. So getting back to performing. So after you had booked Rent, did that kind of propel you into like, okay, I'm a working actor now?

[34:36] Michael Wartella: Yeah. I mean, not only, yes, I think not only mentally did it shift me. I mean, look, it was, like I said before, I was off Broadway, but it was that sort of weird in between thing at New World Stages where like, it's pseudo Broadway. You know what I mean? You're doing an eight show week schedule. It's a lot of those shows from Broadway go there and they get smaller. So it's really the same caliber of, I mean, Michael Greif directed it. It was the same thing, but it was less money and it was not technically on Broadway. But the point to that is that it made me feel like I could do it. Like it was an eight show week, hard sing. And I was doing it, you know, and I had solos and I was like not messing up the solos and I was like doing a good job.

So mentally I was like, oh, I guess I'm good enough to do this. And then also sadly, like there is a little bit of snowball effect in this business that just always happens, which is like when you're the hot ticket, you're the hot ticket. And when you drift out of that, they don't pay as much attention. And sometimes that's large scale stuff. Sometimes it's small scale. But for me, I found that like as soon as I got that show, the doors opened to these other shows where people wanted to start seeing me audition for these parts. And, you know, I literally, the next show I booked after that was Wicked. The music director of Rent had me come in for one day into a recording studio to do a demo of a new musical he had written.

So I did a quick one-off, you know, freebie demo day. And the associate music director on that project was also the associate at Wicked. And I had worked with him once before. And I said, hey, you know, just, you know, if you ever need a Bach, like let me know. And he was like, well, would you tour? I was like, of course. He's like, well, let me see what I can do. And they at that moment needed someone on tour. So he made a call. I was like, I think this guy could work out. I'm not even sure if they really saw anyone else. I think I had a quick one audition just to see if like prescreen things like, you know, and then I booked it the next day. And so like, I mean, yeah, yeah. That's the fairy tale.

Do you know what I mean? But the funny thing was I had auditioned for Wicked for the same role five years earlier, gone through eight callbacks, gotten towards the end with like 10 other guys and got nowhere near it.

[36:28] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah. No, no, no. And I have a similar story that whenever Adam's family was on Broadway, these equity chorus calls, sometimes you go in, do your 16 bars and they just cycle through. And then sometimes they'll bring in 10 at a time and they'll go down the line and they'll say yes, no, yes, no, yes. You literally haven't sung a note. You have not even said hello. They literally bring you in, in the line and they just look at your resume, look at you and send you off or keep you. And if they keep you, then you get to sing. Yeah. Well, I was let go. Yeah. I was let go. They were like, no, no, get out of here. I didn't sing, didn't do anything. Yeah. Or something. And then three, two or three years later, then I auditioned for the tour and then I'm Lurch understudy. So yeah, it's timing. It's not that I couldn't do Lurch. It's just that at that time they weren't looking or I wasn't ready.

[37:16] Michael Wartella: I love stories like that. It's so important, I feel like for people to hear those, because it's also like, I don't know how you felt, but for me in that moment of the first moment of those stories, it's like, you feel like it's never going to happen. You're not good enough. What are you even, like, you're never going to blah, blah, blah. It's like, all I did was stand there and they didn't want me.

[37:35] Patrick Oliver Jones: Exactly. Exactly.

[37:36] Michael Wartella: Or I always tell the story too, that, you know, for me, I had been, I booked rent, you know, when I did, but for like five years before that, I had been auditioning with Telsey and Company who cast that and auditioning and callbacks and stuff, but never booking a job for like five years. So my head was like, they don't even know who I am. This is ridiculous. I'm never going to book anything. What am I doing? Finally, the opening night party of rent, the casting director came up to me and she was like, I'm so glad you got this job. We're so excited for you. We've been trying to get you a job for five years. We just think you're great. And it was just timing with each director and everyone loves you. But like, we thank God this worked out. And I was like, what? Like it occurred to me in that moment that our careers happen behind closed doors. We don't even know. I honestly believe that most of our career happens out of our sight.

[38:16] Michael Wartella: Completely. Because the same thing happened to me. I was in a class with Mary Sugarman, who's with Tara Rubin casting. And so this is after, you know, three years or so of kind of doing this audition and that audition with someone in the Tara Rubin office and, you know, among all my other auditions. And so then I finally do this group class with Mary Sugarman. And as I was singing and she's giving notes, she then holds up my headset and she said, we were in a meeting with Tara Rubin and Tara Rubin said, how can we get this guy a job? And I was just like, yeah, Tara Rubin's talking about what? You want to get me a job?

[38:53] Patrick Oliver Jones: I know.

[38:54] Michael Wartella: So it's like, I never even thought that I was in their minds.

[38:57] Patrick Oliver Jones: No, not at all. If anything, I at the time was thinking the opposite. I was like, they hate me.

[39:01] Michael Wartella: Right, right, right, right. They never meet me and they never call me back.

[39:04] Patrick Oliver Jones: It never occurred to me that they were calling me in for auditions all the time. It was like, you know, of course they don't hate us. It's like, you know, yeah, it's very, very true. And I think that's just more to like, stay out of your own way, you know, just do your best work and forget about it.

[39:15] Michael Wartella: And that's actually one reason why I was so happy to have you on the show because is that you've been on both sides of that, of the struggles and the times when it's like, well, maybe I just need to do something else. But then also you've seen the benefit of sticking with it and what can result in that. The booking it is just as much hard work as it is luck. And as you said, our careers really fall somewhere in between. And sometimes we're going to get something more on luck. Sometimes we're going to get something more on our hard work and you never know which it's going to be. Because I've had those auditions where it's like four or five in and I don't feel any closer to it. And then I've had the one where I was in there for 10, 15 minutes and then three days later I book it.

You know, we always get those auditions where it's like, okay, this one, I want this one. I've got three others this week and they're whatever, but I want this one, you know? And right away I'm like, well, you're probably not going to get that one then. Because that's how you're thinking about it. And more importantly, that one, whatever it is, was always the one I never booked. I never did Book of Mormon. I never did Spider-Man. I haven't done Waitress. It's like these things that I was like, I got that Waitress appointment. I was like, Tess, this is my next job, girl. Here we go. I got in there. They're like, thanks. Nobody liked it. Nobody laughed. Nobody was into it. Also, I ran into a buddy of mine talking about comparing where I was like, that guy's going to book it.

He did. I was like, yes, nail it. Great. And I love him. Meanwhile, two other auditions that I had that week, I got callbacks for and almost booked. It's like, again, I never thought... Talk Everlasting was a reading I did seven years ago that I remember when I first did it, I was like, I don't think this thing will ever come around. And it became the first show I ever originated. Literally, I looked around one day when I was doing it. I was like, what?

[40:59] Michael Wartella: Like this is happening. This is like my next Broadway credit like cool. But like what I thought it was gonna be all these other things, you know. So going back to your first Broadway contract, what was that? Like what was that moment like for you? It was wild. I mean it was luckily, it did have all the sort of good moments that you hope for for a second where you're like, holy crap this happened, you know. But it also was very real very fast. I mean it I think I was expecting like, you know, the gates to open and they're they they hand you a martini and they're like welcome son, you're in the club exactly and it said they're like, okay, five six seven eight great and you're like, oh jeez like it's so, you know, so wait, this is not a show just like any of that.

So I still have to rehearse exactly, you know, and so, you know, especially it was I actually am very grateful for the way I did it because I really thought like my Broadway debut was gonna be like a new show and an originating role I wanted or like it was gonna be right was gonna be something I had always been passionate about and really it was like wicked which is a show I love but like was never like crazy about and it was I had done it on tour for a year and then they liked me and so that I did it, you know in New York and I became more crazy about the show once I did it to be honest with you but it was just one of these things were like I okay, so and also the other thing that happened was I gave my notice on the tour because I was supposed to go do tuck everlasting on Broadway.

That was gonna be my Broadway debut. We were scheduled to go to the Colonial Theatre in Boston and go immediately to brought to Broadway so in that time I was still on the tour, but I had given my notice and I got word that the whole project had been pulled and that we weren't going to Boston. We weren't going to Broadway and they called me, they're like, I'm so sorry. And of course, I couldn't go back to tour because they had hired my replacement, right? 'Cause you're gone, you know, it's gone. So I was like, ooh, so I was devastated for like a long time and then well relatively long because 24 hours later they called me and said so we did get you a job, you're gonna be in Wicked on Broadway and I was like what you know and I and I you know, I cried and I jumped up and down and I literally like oh my god ten years of work or plus is here and it's gonna happen, you know, and my son was with me that day and I was like crying.

He's like, why are you crying? You know, it's like I got to Broadway, you know. It was like this whole thing and and then I and then I got there and you know I had already been doing the show so there was very little to learn there were some adjustments to make and I started doing but I tell you sir that I was so nervous for the first week and a half. I had done the show for a year, of course, right? But for some reason you put me on that stage. Yeah now it's a Broadway stage, you know. I couldn't eat I was like in the bathroom every five seconds like it was like I remember being like why is wrong with you? Like it's the same show, but there was just something about the stakes to me that felt big.

I remember thinking like well, you never know who could be in the audience like, you know, Stephen Sondheim could be here tonight we don't know maybe right checking out wicked right? We don't know. Of course the things we tell her. Yeah. Yeah, but you know and then pretty quickly and there were great things that happened from it. I mean I there is an element of like feeling like I was accepted by a community, you know and and and everyone loves to my favorite thing is everyone loves to be like, oh yeah the people who have known me for years have been like, oh, I've always known, you know casting directors have been like, oh, well, we always knew you were gonna I'm like, oh yeah did you 'cause I didn't work for 10 years?

And then the people who most of the people who had never heard of me were like would you come from who did you just graduate all this stuff and I was like, I've been working for 10 years like I think it drives me nuts even still that people think I'm like brand new to this career because my my short Broadway stint has only existed recently, right? So they think that's my whole life and my whole career and I'm like, I've been doing theater professionally at reputable places for years. But it's like, you know, it's just how people think of it. If it's not on playbill.com it like didn't happen.

[44:43] Patrick Oliver Jones: Exactly because you and I first met yes, this was this was in 2010 I think this was 2010 and we were doing a workshop of a of a new musical at the time and it was based on Lanford Wilson's play Balmain Gilead correct. It was called rain dogs. Yes, and that that's where you and I met for the first time. And so that was what was that how many years after you had finished? Mm. Yeah, I guess it was that 2010 you said I graduated circle in 2006 so that was like like four years or four years into it. So you were still on your journey? Yeah, not not on Broadway not on no I was you know, I was lucky to get that job because I believe me I was yeah, I had no idea I was like a workshop. Okay. Yeah, I got brought in I think by a friend like she had been cast already and right it's someone to play opposite her and she suggested me and like, yeah, I don't even think I had a good audition.

Yeah, like I went in and sang this song that I was just learning and was like, oh I need something contemporary so I pulled this contemporary song kind of learned it and it was not a great I kind of did some weird things with it because I didn't know the song as well as I should have. Yeah, but yeah, yeah, I guess they saw something. I know and you never know and then you know that experience was bizarre as ever.

[46:01] Michael Wartella: Yeah, so for those of you listening so what this was is a week-long workshop and we went out to Bay Street Theatre, which is in the Hamptons and for that week long we just workshopped different music numbers that they did some rewriting and so after you know, five five days I think of rehearsal then we presented kind of like a stage concert reading. Yeah something. Oh, and by the way, they told us the day before by the way, we've sold tickets to this so there'll be like 200 people here right there each paying like 40 bucks. Oh and what cast if you'll please turn Lanford Wilson, yeah, the playwright is here. He's just gonna talk to us now after the show, right? Yeah, that was a weird experience.

They're not usually quite like that. Yeah me. Yeah, but that was fun. I I guess they had aspirations for it, but I've not heard anything. Oh, no. No, I actually talked to that guy that director and writer and everything and it's still kicking around but it's you know, it's it's a tough sell. It's a tough. Yeah, you know, we have a lot of those. I mean, I've done workshops and readings for years. Mm-hmm. Most of them have not panned out. Yeah. Yeah, I think my parents are still trying to figure that out and my grandparents especially they're like so when is this one gonna happen? You know what I mean, and I'm like, uh, it may never happen like I don't know what to tell you, right? Well, they like don't worry cuz this one's coming. I'm like, maybe maybe we'll see.

[47:20] Michael Wartella: Yeah, you never know where your next opportunity is going to come from and something from from a while back that you were you had put out of your mind and then all of a sudden hey we're gonna do another reading or workshop. Yeah, and like just don't poopoo anything man, you know, it's like there's there's these things I think it's so easy to again like you focus on the ones you really really want or the ones that you think you're gonna whatever and it's like I did not think tuck everlasting was gonna happen right at a certain point. Yeah, if you don't but but I was always pleasant to work with I was always kind I always did my best like I worked my butt off in that show and it ended up working out you know, I have a producer friend of mine who was in seussical with me on theater works and she's now become like a big producer and does a bunch of things not just theater and she's putting in money to produce my solo album that's happening now because she literally saw me post something online and said I want to be a part of this I think we could collaborate and we teamed up and we're now back in each other's lives after 10 years it's been this amazing professional and personal relationship.

You never know who's gonna be anyone you know ever so I think it's important to be kind and generous and it's just important to do that anyway, you know there is the professional aspect of networking and you never know, you know who you're gonna meet and you never know in what situation you're going to be in and and I know like for national tours especially this is something look for you're not just auditioning for your talent. You're auditioning what are you like 24 hours a day to hang out with it? Like are you gonna be someone that people will want to work with on a tour? 24-7 basis because it's so much about your attitude and and how you are around other people totally. I know people a lot of people who don't get jobs because they're not great people.

Yeah and and vice versa. I know a lot of people who get a lot of jobs because they're great to work with and you go and so it's really, you know, I think the goal is to be able to do both right now that gets back to what we were talking about before of if you're doing what you're passionate about if you get back to the basics of the singing or the storytelling or the writing or directing whatever part that you're playing if you get back to the basics of this is why I'm here and you stick with that and and you find the joy and the passion of it then that's going to exude in the relationships and how you treat people because you're so you're so grateful for what you're doing.

[49:39] Patrick Oliver Jones: Absolutely. I love that. Yeah, you're right, that's nice. So looking forward to the future what's coming up for you and throw out a bucket list? What have you been thinking about? What have you been looking? Well, I will I'll do that. Why not? I I want to do good work. I want to work with good people I would like to work often just so I don't have to like be bored out of my mind, you know which is what happens when I don't work, you know immediately what's going on next is I'm gonna go back on tour with wicked it's gonna be crazy for about a year. I'd have workshops and stuff coming up I think this thing I've been working on a little bit that I've been talking about is called The Wanderer they're doing a lot of these bio musicals lately of like Cher and you know Donna Summer and right one that we're doing that we're working on is about Dion DiMucci who wrote Runaround Sue and The Wanderer and you know all these hits from the 50s and they're great great songs and I play him in the in the workshop and it's just it's one of these ones where like the script is actually brilliant so that's a passion project of mine that I think has you know, hopefully some legs next year we're looking at nothing official but it's looking good.

I mean that said I also am really working hard on this totally other separate passion of mine which is music me and my band have this thing going on and we're you'd mentioned producing an album yeah we're in the studio tomorrow actually we're going to do a couple days of recording and on this little EP that we're doing and I'm proud of it already I think it's gonna be great it should be released sometime in January which will be good. My problem has always been that I like doing all of it. I don't just like one thing yeah, jack-of-all-trades master of none, you know, and so like it's hard to be taken seriously as a serious actor when you're also a comedian and it's hard to be taken seriously as a comedian when you're like a serious actor and you know all this so I would love to do it all it would like make my soul so happy if one day I was standing with a guitar and I looked out and there were like well three to four thousand people there.

Yeah, let's be realistic I get to do a whole concert that's just me and get paid to do it like that and go on tour of my bands that would be amazing to me. So we'll see and and that said none of it may happen, you know like I may do none of it or I may do all of it and everything in between and you know, who knows? I don't know. But what I know is that I'm not gonna stop pursuing the art. I care too much about the music I care too much about the storytelling directing I want to do a lot of directing and teaching and now stuff you hear these stories about famous actors like Steve Martin you know, he wrote a Broadway musical, but he we also know him from all the movies and sorry live but then he also plays banjo and does like bluegrass, you know and then Tony Bennett phenomenal performer and he paints.

Yeah, so it's these people who just because they're good at one artistic expression. They want to venture into other areas so maybe maybe you will be jack-of-all-trades and master of them. Maybe that again I think the universe sort of steers you this way if you let it like finding what you're here for in terms of service in terms of like helping other people like, you know someone once said to me like they were insecure about their voice for years and years and years in the business and so someone said to them did it ever occur to you that people like listening to you sing and that by singing you're actually like giving someone something that they enjoy and she was like, oh my god, you're right and she took her head right out of it.

She said I'm no longer gonna do this for like look at me I'm gonna do this for like what can I give you and I think we so often stray away from that because it seems like we're you know, cocky or this or that but the reality is like take yourself out of it and realize that you can give something to the community you can give something to the audiences and you know I think that if that's the driving force, then of course, it's gonna be met with good energy, you know.

[53:17] Patrick Oliver Jones: I think that's a great way to end it. Well, thank you so much Mike for doing this has been a great conversation. It's drifted a little bit of everywhere everywhere, but that's how our conversations. And thank you so much for listening.

[53:38] Patrick Oliver Jones: Coming up next week I've got another spotlight series bonus episode where I'll be speaking with and Jacobs who is a composer herself but also teaches musical theater composition at the New York Youth Symphony program. That will be split up between an audio portion where I interview her and another video podcast portion where I'll be featuring interviews with the students in her class and speaking of the New York Youth Symphony don't forget about our giveaway of two free tickets to the orchestra's December 2nd concert. Retweet repost any of the posts that you see on Instagram or Twitter regarding the New York Youth Symphony and you'll not only be entered to win the two free tickets if you don't win, you'll still get a 25% off discount code toward any tickets you wish to purchase. I'm Patrick Oliver Jones until then keep making it and have a great day.