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[0:15] Patrick Oliver Jones: Today on the podcast, we talk about photography and headshots, but also the importance of being your true self and telling your own story. With actor, photographer, and Playbill's director of video production, Roberto Araujo.

[0:48] Patrick Oliver Jones: I'm your host, Patrick Oliver Jones, and thank you for joining me here on Why I'll Never Make It, a weekly podcast featuring conversations with fellow creatives about the realities of a career in the performing arts. That website, why I'll never make it.com. Now, in listening to previous episodes, you'll hear me mention WinMe Podcast.com, which will still get you to the same website. And WinMe Podcast is the name used on all social media platforms. But last month I began to hone the podcast, getting back to its roots of addressing and challenging that notion of what it means to make it in this business. So now the website will reflect that renewed focus on why I'll never make it. And today we're going to be focusing on headshots, basically the business card of all actors and performers. Roberto is an actor and singer himself and knows firsthand what goes into making a great headshot.

[1:52] Patrick Oliver Jones: I first discovered and found out about Roberto at the beginning of season three. That season opened with guests Jay Harrison G and Caroline Bowman. And in looking for pictures to promote that episode, I found a series of interpretive editorial photos of Caroline as Elsa in the national tour of Disney's Frozen. I reached out to Roberto and asked him about using his pictures, but also how he and Caroline got to know each other.

[2:21] Roberto Araujo: Yeah, uh Caroline and I did a show together. We did Fame in China, choreographed by Josh Burgas about 10 years ago. Uh and that's when we first met, and then when she got the part, we did a little like reveal, um just a tip of the hat to Elsa, you know, and those were the pictures that she was using when she was on the road.

[2:48] Patrick Oliver Jones: In that initial conversation, we hit it off almost immediately. And so I asked him to come on the podcast and talk about the work that he does as a photographer, as well as how he first started working for Playbill.

[3:00] Roberto Araujo: Um I was doing freelance photography for them. Uh, and I was doing a series called Snaps for Opening Night, where I would go and follow a cast member from a specific show from when they left the stage to them getting ready to go to the opening night party. Um, so it was super fun, and I enjoyed working with all the Playbill team. And then when the opening for the position was video content manager back then, uh, when that position opened up, uh, they interviewed me and I got it and I booked it. Uh and then now I got my change of title. So I'm now the director of video production at Playbill, which has been very fulfilling, being able to create a bunch of new series, things like From Ballet to Broadway and Playbill the Game Show and Elevator Pitch and you know, just showcasing folks in the industry.

[4:02] Roberto Araujo: And among all the Broadway performers he's had a chance to meet, one stands out in particular. With From Ballet to Broadway, I got to sit down with Chita Rivera and interview her. And that it's hard to top that. Uh with Norbert Leo Butz and Betsy Wolfe doing Playbill the Game Show. Playbill the Game Show has been my baby from the beginning. It's trivia in the style of Jeopardy. So we have a host and we have three contestants from a specific show, and it's just Broadway trivia. And there's three rounds, and there's like a category where they have to guess which show the song is from, and just it's been really fun to create that and see it grow from just the idea and put it on the screen.

[5:02] Roberto Araujo: One of my main goals with this was and also with photography. One of my main goals is to shine the light on the talent and make them look good on a photograph and make them look great on a video and make people want to come see their shows. Uh get people hired from a photo. Those are the goals that I set for myself. So that is the most fulfilling part of the job for me to shine the light on the talent.

[5:34] Patrick Oliver Jones: With today's episode, though, we turn that spotlight back around on Roberto himself and let him shine as we talk about his acting career, his photography and video production, his Mexican roots, as well as the challenges he's faced from within the industry and in his home life. He honestly juggles so much between his personal and professional lives, yet somehow finds a way to balance it all.

[6:03] Roberto Araujo: I've been very fortunate to be able to move my careers parallel to each other. Uh with the photography, it's very easy to have equipment that travels with you. Um, you know, whenever I did a contract, I packed my lights and I took them with me. And if I had a chance to do any headshots or any editorial material while I was on that contract, I took advantage of that. Um, and that's also a great way to network, uh, getting more people to know your work. And yeah, that's basically how it is. I got really lucky to be able to do that.

[6:44] Patrick Oliver Jones: What was it that led you from being in front of the camera for those kind of auditions and that work? What led you to want to be behind the camera?

[6:53] Roberto Araujo: Well, I always enjoyed the visual arts. Uh always enjoyed lighting design and video editing. Um and it was when I went to China with Fame when my parents gave me my first digital camera. So then when you are in a company of 30 actors that are always willing to get photographed, uh you get some practice. Uh and I had a mentor in Mexico City. Uh he's a photographer, a good friend of mine. His name is Oscar Ponce. Incredible, incredible work. Um and I always enjoyed learning from him. I had the basics of photography from college, but I never dove into it fully. So when I came back from that tour, I invested in the equipment. I think I made a name for myself from like word of mouth, just people having their prints of my headshots out there.

[8:02] Patrick Oliver Jones: And so when you began to take photographs, I assumed that there was a steep learning curve because, as you said, you hadn't really studied it. So I assume there were some stumbles along the way.

[8:14] Roberto Araujo: Oh my goodness, there were many. There were many. With all the time that we have at home right now, I was going through a couple of the first shoots I ever did. Uh, and there were lots of stumbles. Uh, I think I can see where I was going. I had a certain style, but I didn't really know how to execute it. But you know, I took a bunch of classes with a wonderful teacher, his name is Scott Kelby. He's another person that I learned so much from. Um that really bumped up my game in the photography world, just being able to use a different software and know how to light, and light is so important. Because sometimes the equipment, you might have the equipment, and that doesn't mean that you have the knowledge on how to use it. And I always do this analogy. Uh, you can have the most expensive microphone, but if you don't know how to use it, and saying that doesn't make you a good singer.

[9:23] Patrick Oliver Jones: That is specifically good for podcasting, because it doesn't matter whether you're using your phone or you know, your headphone microphone, or you buy a $500 microphone. If you don't know what to do with it, then it doesn't matter.

[9:37] Roberto Araujo: Exactly. Exactly. Once you have all that knowledge and you then you need to put it to practice, you need to be shooting all the time and you need to be taking pictures and experimenting and not being afraid of trying new things.

[9:50] Patrick Oliver Jones: And so when it comes to those photo shoots, as you've been doing it over the years, what are those two or three ways that we can help, you know, those of us in front of the camera now can help make it a more productive session and result in better pictures?

[10:04] Roberto Araujo: I think there's a couple of things. Basic preparation, like choosing your outfits and what you're gonna wear and ironing things and making sure they're solid colors, uh, nothing that steals attention. It's very different to do an editorial shoot than a headshot shoot. The headshot is not about what you're wearing, it's about what we are seeing and what you're giving us as an actor, because that's what we're selling right now. Uh the headshot is going to be your introductory card. Uh so that's the first thing the casting directors are gonna see. And that needs to match what they're seeing in the room. Because if not, you're doing a disservice to your own career and your image. If you don't look like your headshot, they might call you for the wrong thing. Or the second reason why the headshot is important is because they need to remember you when you're not in the room. If the two things don't match, that's when you're doing a disservice to your own career.

[11:15] Roberto Araujo: Um a big thing that I've ran into is that people want to get haircuts, or some people color their hair right before a headshot session, and that's not advisable. Just allow some time for the color to settle and make sure that if anything went wrong, you have time to fix it. And same with a haircut. If it's not the haircut that you usually have when you go into an audition, that's not helping. Um lots of people ask me if it's okay if they do their own makeup, and I'd rather sometimes have them do a very, very light makeup just because it's not the same as going out makeup, right? Um face the light eats up the color, so your face is gonna look different than your arms. Uh we want your skin to look the same color everywhere, you know, and if you don't know how makeup reacts to the light, that's also detrimental to the final product.

[12:29] Roberto Araujo: Um another thing is like I was saying before, editorial photography is not the same as a headshot. I think social media has kind of morphed the way we look at ourselves. So because we have filters and we have corrections and we have face tuning, so then all of a sudden, this is how you want to look, but it might not be the way you actually look when people see you. I think you always need to, when you choose your pictures, when you get your pictures back, you need to have someone help you.

[13:08] Roberto Araujo: You need like, uh, two other pairs of eyes that tell you this looks like you, this does not look like you.

[13:15] Patrick Oliver Jones: And I assume a big part of your job is to not just capture our eyes, nose, and mouth, but it's to capture the personality and the person behind it.

[13:26] Roberto Araujo: And I know for myself, that's something that when I'm on stage, I can let it all go and I'm not held back. But as soon as that camera's there, I all of a sudden feel a little constrained. I don't know what to do with my face, how am I looking? And so it can be a little hard to let my personality out when it's just a still shot. So how do you go about bringing that out?

[13:50] Roberto Araujo: I think being comfortable is a very important part of stepping into a headshot session, being comfortable with the photographer. If you had a consultation with the photographer before, that you will be able to see the rapport that you have with the photographer. And, uh, sometimes we all work differently. And sometimes the ways some people work don't match with some other people's personalities. So don't think of it as an audition. The photographer is there to help you turn out the best product. So they need to make you comfortable so you can bring out the personality that is going to come through that image.

[14:39] Roberto Araujo: In some ways, it's like dating in the fact that you want there to be that connection, you want there to be a chemistry.

[14:44] Patrick Oliver Jones: 100%.

[15:02] Roberto Araujo: And that makes me want to jump out the window because I feel like we need to be updating our headshots every six months. Every, and I mean, and maybe you do one big shoot of like four looks, and then you spend five thousand dollars on that or fifteen hundred dollars on that, but then you have to do updates because we grow hair, you know, people change their hair color, people lose weight, people gain weight. Like you need to continually update your look so you look like yourself, and you're not gonna be paying $5,000 each time you have a headshot session.

[15:46] Patrick Oliver Jones: Right.

[15:46] Roberto Araujo: So I think look for a photographer that is gonna give you a reasonable price or maybe a discount if you come back. Uh, all those deals are always helpful. And on the other side of the coin, watch out for, I don't know, I'll give you five looks and five retouches for $150, which I also wouldn't trust that. Always do your research. Always go to the Instagram pages and see who has done pictures with that photographer and see if it fits your style as well. Some photographers are very edgy and they're more aimed to, uh, TV and film. And if that's what you want, then that's what you should be looking for. You know, it's doing lots of research.

[16:33] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, because I would say for myself, the photographers that I've used have all come from either word of mouth or people that I know and have worked with. Because, as you said, it's about that relationship and it's about knowing them. And the times whenever I have used someone that I didn't know, it tended to not work out as well.

[16:52] Roberto Araujo: Yeah.

[16:52] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah. I think what you said about it not being an audition is really something to keep in mind because we have to just know that, well, if this picture doesn't work out, well, then the next one I take will be fine. You know, that's why you take 800 shots on that day, or however many you take, because all you need is that one or two that are gonna look like you and be the one you use. So have fun with it, experiment, see if this look or that angle, or you know, standing up, sitting down, whatever it's gonna be. It's all about just being comfortable in that space and letting your personality out. And that's the beauty of digital photography. I can shoot 500 pictures in less than a minute. Like I can't, we can try whatever you want. If something is not working, you can also speak out and say, Hey, would you mind if we play this song? Do you mind if I take a little break? Like speak out because that time is for you.

[17:49] Roberto Araujo: Uh, and the photographer should understand that he's there to make you look great. And also because I feel like you kind of need to do the job of the casting director a little bit because they see thousands of pictures, they sit there and just watch hundreds of videos, and you kind of need to do the job for the casting directors and give them as much information about yourself with one image as you can.

[18:23] Patrick Oliver Jones: What are some of the most challenging aspects of being a photographer for you?

[18:30] Roberto Araujo: I think is the way people look at themselves. I think social media is so impactful on how people measure their talent or popularity. People think they need to fit a mold of the leading lady has to look like this, and the chorus boy look has to look like this. And people put themselves in things that they want to be. So it's hard when they don't look the way society is telling them they should look. So I think the hardest part is to find who they are and to make them look their best without fitting any molds. They are the mold, so they are creating something for themselves. No one should be wanting to look like someone specifically. We are all individuals and we all look different. I mean, you're talking to this guy, I'm from Mexico City with a different accent.

I don't sound like a leading man. And it took a while for me to realize that I'm a very specific type. And unless I am going to audition and putting that look out there of this specific of who I am, not the type that I would like to be. That's when I started booking things. The photo shoot, that photography that we take is really an extension of us discovering who we are.

[20:29] Roberto Araujo: Recently, Backstage interviewed creative professionals on the subject of what makes a great headshot. And while there was a particular theme in all of their answers, they each gave specific ways that we as actors succeed and fail in making that good headshot. Here's Robert Adderman, CEO of the Abrams Artist Agency.

[20:52] Robert Adderman: A good headshot for an actor is a picture that looks like them and in the most natural form. They used to have the traditional sort of, uh, with the hands and doing all kinds of creative things. It's not a portrait that you want to put on your mantelpiece, it's a picture of what they look like, and it's really important for casting directors when they see a picture and resume to see that this or when they see a picture, that the picture looks exactly like the person, so that when they bring that person in, that's who they're bringing in. They're not bringing in somebody who looks completely different.

[21:36] Benton Whitley: I think, I mean, for the most part, people in New York are actors are getting better about it, but I would say that there still are a lot of glamour shots out there. And, uh, they seem like they're pictures that are more appropriate for like Facebook or OKCupid or Tinder, and you should use those pictures for those websites. That's awesome. Score some dates, but, uh, you need to have a photo that actually looks like you when you come in the room because it's such a disservice when an actor, you know, I see a photo online on a computer screen of someone a million more times than I actually see the person live in front of me. I mean, I see digital representation of people every day, all day long, and I see you for, you know, a 10-minute audition, you know, twice a year.

And so when you walk in for that 10-minute audition, and I've been staring at this photo of you and have this very clear idea of what I thought you looked like, you walk in and you're not that person, it's such a disappointment. We're hiring vivid individuals, and we want the photo to look like you so that we already have an idea of what you represent, uh, of your type. And so when you come in and you're not the type you are in a photo, and you're just really hot and you have your bedroom eyes on, and that isn't actually what you're selling me when you're in the room, you're actually like a really quirky funny like character actor. Then, uh, you leave the room, and there's just like this disconnect that I just can't quite put together, and I don't know what to do with you, and ultimately I'm confused, and, you know, say next.

[23:11] Patrick Oliver Jones: And so, how can we make sure that headshot captures who we really are? Here's acting coach Anthony Mindel.

[23:19] Anthony Mindel: Well, you know, weirdly enough, I just talked to a friend of mine yesterday, he's a headshot photographer, and he said he was working with a friend. It took him forever to get his friend to stop acting. You, I mean, you can't, here's the thing that's so amazing. Acting, life is the art of being. And if a camera is capturing your headshot, it's just being. And actors, when they go and take their headshots, often, and I'm not a headshot photographer, but I think that they will most probably would agree with what I'm saying is that what they're trying to capture is the actor's essence, the person's essence. And as soon as they start acting, showing it's not real. There's a famous quote by Oscar Wilde where he said, Be yourself. Everyone else is already taken. And it is that individuality, that authentic self that has to come through in the photograph.

[24:14] Patrick Oliver Jones: So I wanted to get to know the real Roberto. Who is it that shows up in his own headshots? By finding out where he came from and what brought him to New York.

[24:25] Roberto Araujo: Well, the short story. Well, um, of course I came here, uh, because I wanted to pursue acting. Um, but the way I ended up here was a little bit of a whim. Um, I was dealing with coming out to my family, and, uh, it got to a point where my mother said to me, uh, if this is how you're gonna live, you can't live in this house anymore.

[24:59] Roberto Araujo: And I called her bluff and I said, Great, so I'm gonna pack my things and I'm gonna go. Um, so I did. So I left, uh, my mother's house and I lived in Mexico City on my own for about a month. Um, during that month, I was very lucky to, uh, I booked a voiceover with DreamWorks. Uh, I don't know if you remember the movie, the animated movie Joseph King of Dreams.

[25:30] Patrick Oliver Jones: Right.

[25:31] Roberto Araujo: Uh, so I was the singing voice of Joseph in the Spanish release of the movie.

[25:36] Patrick Oliver Jones: Oh wow.

[25:38] Roberto Araujo: Um, so then with that money that I earned from that job, I bought my ticket to New York. And, uh, and literally out of a movie, uh, I had my two suitcases, and I came here to live adventure because I didn't know anyone. Uh, I didn't really have a plan. Um, so I got here.

[26:04] Roberto Araujo: I spent two nights sleeping on the street.

[26:11] Roberto Araujo: And then I met a choir director. Her name is uh Nancy Shankman, and she took me under her wing and I joined uh her choir at Hostos Community College. Um and she literally taught me how to write my resume for an audition here in New York. And she gave me a backstage to look for auditions.

[26:42] Roberto Araujo: So you really had to start from scratch when it came to being a performer and being in this world.

[26:47] Roberto Araujo: Yes, 100%. Yeah, I had I had worked a lot in Mexico. I worked for Disney a lot and uh in Latin America, and uh but then it was back to back to square one when I got here.

[27:04] Patrick Oliver Jones: Now, because you had found success there in Mexico, what made you want to leave that? Did you not want to just continue that?

[27:12] Roberto Araujo: Well, there's there's something in me that always wanted to live in New York, even when I was little, uh, I always attribute it to uh there's a cartoon that was very popular in the 80s uh called Top Cat. Uh and it's about a gang of cats who lives in New York, and I always loved that cartoon. It's still one of my favorite cartoons, but uh I just decided that I was gonna live in New York uh before I knew I was gonna be an actor. Um but also Mexico City is very limited to you know for acting jobs.

[27:48] Roberto Araujo: Uh, there's maybe like five big musicals in Mexico City. Uh it's not it's not like here where you can go work at North Shore or you can go work at Paper Mill, or you can go work, you know, there's that regional theater uh um circuit doesn't exist there. So when you have 26 million people that are in Mexico City, uh I don't know how many of them are actors, but then you have five big shows, it's it's just not sustainable.

[28:22] Patrick Oliver Jones: That's tough.

[28:23] Roberto Araujo: Yeah.

[28:23] Patrick Oliver Jones: Now you had mentioned that you called your mother's bluff when you left Mexico. Do you think it really was a bluff? What was was she that unaccepting of it? Or what was that dynamic?

[28:35] Roberto Araujo: I think knowing my mother, I think she wanted me to say, Oh no, no, no, no. I I'm actually not gay. I was it was just a phase. Um whether it was true or not, she just didn't want to know.

[28:51] Patrick Oliver Jones: What was your relationship afterwards? If as the years went by.

[28:54] Roberto Araujo: Uh for I didn't see them for a long time. Uh I actually they didn't know where I was living. Um they when I finally got an apartment in New York.

[29:09] Roberto Araujo: So I moved here in September of 2000. When I when I finally got an apartment, which was around maybe October, that's when I called them. And I told gave them my address and my phone number, but that was it. Like that's there was no like calling to catch up or anything.

[29:32] Roberto Araujo: Um and then I went to visit a couple of times, but it was always tense. It was always there was never uh a good uh way of communication just because they didn't they didn't want to know a lot about my life. Um whatever that meant.

[29:54] Roberto Araujo: Uh they they just didn't want to know. They I don't think they were ready or um what made a big change is in 2003 I was working for Carnival Cruise Lines uh and I that's where I met my husband um and they met him and they saw the interaction that I had between my coworkers and the people who worked on the ship and how you know when you're you're on a ship you're living in this like tiny little community uh right so when passengers see you and you're the celebrity and you're the singer in the show and so they they kind of realized that me being gay didn't mean that I wasn't uh successful or liked or loved so they kind of that kind of gave them peace of mind I'd like to say uh there's still something to this day that is not quite right in the relationship.

[31:05] Roberto Araujo: Um like they I got married we got married two years ago and uh we invited them to the wedding and they decided not to come so little things like that but my father is the first one to ask me how my husband's family is doing and how he's doing and so yeah it's it's it's a tricky relationship I think it's been too many years that I've been away and it it there's it feels like there's no uh bond.

[31:39] Roberto Araujo: Um but we're we're cordial and they also I don't think they understand what I do, to be honest.

[31:49] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, because was anyone else in your family a performer?

[31:53] Roberto Araujo: No, no, no, no, no one. Like I it that came out of nowhere for them, and uh and it oh it I think it always confused them.

[32:02] Roberto Araujo: Like whenever I showed them uh videos of me in a show, they're like, oh, so you choreographed the show, or like did you write this song? It's like no no no, that's not what I do.

[32:16] Roberto Araujo: But you know, they enjoy going to see the shows, and uh they saw me in every ship that I was on, and and so I tried to to enjoy those little bits of like light in their relationship.

[32:30] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah.

[32:32] Patrick Oliver Jones: Were they more accepting then of you as a performer, or or did it uh all kind of get jumbled in with you coming out as well?

[32:40] Roberto Araujo: I think in their heads is completely like entangled. In 2000, right before I moved here, I was also working for Disney for a division called uh Disney Special Events Group, and we were doing a tour around Mexico.

[32:54] Roberto Araujo: Uh we were playing arenas of like 10,000 people with this show called uh Disney's Magical Memories, and I played Aladdin in the show, and it was like a huge thing. I was I was 20 and I was working for Disney and I was touring Mexico, like it was it was great, but then they didn't they never came to see the show, so it it was a mix of like we wanna they wanted to uh show me off as like, oh, that's our son, but also because I was in theater, I was gay, so they didn't support that.

[33:31] Patrick Oliver Jones: How has that affected your own life as as a performer? Or or have you been able to kind of partition that off so that this the personal struggle with them hasn't bled over into your own performing?

[33:44] Roberto Araujo: I think distance has helped a lot for me. Uh I'm I'm a little detached from it. It hurts, you know. It but it's gotten to a point where you know, my family, I created I I have a chosen family here.

[34:02] Roberto Araujo: Uh I always talk talk about the people who went to my wedding. Like those are those are the people that have always been there. I've been here for 20 years. Uh, and those people have been around my life more than my actual family.

[34:18] Roberto Araujo: Uh so it doesn't affect you as as much as it did a few years ago, but um, it's always there.

[34:27] Roberto Araujo: It's always sad when my husband's family is more accepting and interested in my life than my own family, you know.

[34:36] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, yeah. So do you go back to to Mexico often to to see them?

[34:40] Roberto Araujo: No, I I haven't been in about six years, maybe.

[34:45] Roberto Araujo: Uh I have two sisters that live in Austin, Texas.

[34:48] Roberto Araujo: So uh something that my parents come to Austin, and then we all last time I saw them was in Austin.

[34:55] Roberto Araujo: Uh it was easier just to all meet there.

[34:58] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, yeah. And so now, with you being uh a performer, you've you've not only been in shows, as you said, with Carnival and other musicals like with Caroline, but you've also created your own with the uh Do You Dream in Spanish?

[35:14] Roberto Araujo: It's a cabaret that you had mentioned earlier. And you've actually gotten to do it three times, I believe, right? You've kind of had different incarnations of it over the years.

[35:22] Patrick Oliver Jones: And where did the I mean, obviously you are from Mexico and speak Spanish, so why is Do You Dream in Spanish? Where did that title come from?

[35:33] Roberto Araujo: Well, a lot of people ask me that to this day. Uh, do you dream in Spanish? Wouldn't that be obvious? Whatever your native tongue is, that's probably what you dream in.

[35:42] Roberto Araujo: I don't what I realized is that sometimes it it had a different connotation. Uh, because people always asked it. I always said that it made a good title for a show, but then I really I really noticed that people, depending who asked it, it meant something different.

[36:04] Roberto Araujo: Uh so that's a little bit of the story that I tell, like dealing with coming to New York and and uh dealing with casual racism, overcoming that and where I am now.

[36:16] Roberto Araujo: So what did I do? I packed my things and I left everything behind just like that. September of 2000, I moved to New York City without knowing anyone, without a place to live.

[36:32] Roberto Araujo: I arrived here just to realize that the New York of my dreams wasn't so ideal. I slept on the street.

[36:39] Roberto Araujo: I slept on the street for two nights. I was here alone.

[36:48] Roberto Araujo: Roberto's cabaret, Do You Dream in Spanish, is an honest and vulnerable look into his life and shares from the heart.

[36:58] Roberto Araujo: Sometimes it's a humorous story of his dating life. I don't know how to say this, but American men are different.

[37:07] Roberto Araujo: They seem at first quite normal, but I really fear they're not. They're all buzzing and electric and so proud to be neurotic.

[37:16] Roberto Araujo: And the thought of growing older seems to bother them a lot.

[37:23] Roberto Araujo: But his show also deals with heavier matters.

[37:26] Patrick Oliver Jones: And in light of the recent events with George Floyd and the ensuing protests, I asked Roberto about bias and prejudice he's faced.

[37:49] Roberto Araujo: And a community that is supposedly uh uh open-minded and and embraces everyone and and and it's a safe space. But then I would get questions like do Mexican people wear modern clothes?

[38:06] Roberto Araujo: Um or people would say, You're too good looking to be Mexican. Uh and and I'm so proud of my background and and where I come from that it always felt like a microaggression, but being the minority, being the one that is given the chance and the privilege of being among this community that you don't see a lot of people like you, so you don't feel comfortable to stand up for yourself and you just let casual racism slide.

[38:43] Roberto Araujo: Uh, the first time I spoke out uh was um a director I was working with uh said to me straight to my face, uh Bobby. I if I would have known you were Mexican, I wouldn't have hired you.

[39:00] Roberto Araujo: And I debated if I should talk about this and and if I should bring it up with you know state management and and the artistic director of the regional theater where I was working at.

[39:16] Roberto Araujo: Um because again, you never know you were scared that I was in the wrong, but I was the one that was feeling terrible for this comment.

[39:30] Roberto Araujo: Um I brought it up, and this regional theater was 100% behind me, and they talked to the director, the director apologized to me, and it always hides behind a joke. Every time people say things like that, oh I was joking, which I don't think it's a valid excuse to get away with something like that. It's very interesting that for so many years we try to remain quiet and act as if we were so grateful for being allowed in a place where not a lot of Latinos were, and I'm very glad that I was able to bring it up, and I was very proud of this theater company for stepping up to the plate and being behind me 100%.

[40:39] Roberto Araujo: We've talked about how headshots should reflect our true selves, how important it is that we show casting directors who we are and what we really look like. But it is also incumbent upon them to accept what they see and who we are, and in particular, not try to fit actors of color into just a stereotype. Like, oh, can you please sound more Latino? Like what do you mean? That's not a specific direction. Like what does that mean? I have a hard time articulating this because I don't understand what you're saying to me, and even in the casting, like say when people cast voices story with actors who are not Latinx as the sharks, and then we come to sections of the Dance at the Gym or America and there's ad libs, right?

You hear people be in the stereotype of what they think is Puerto Rican, which just translates to a or arriba. That's not authentic, and that is not correct. But because of the ignorance and the lack of knowledge of the directors or the people around or people supervising, they don't see it as an aggression. It's a very tricky area to navigate and negotiate, and you don't want to say the wrong thing that might not get you hired. But I think we're entering a new era in our business where people need to be held accountable for their actions and their words. And we've been told many times throughout this whole situation that words matter, and I think there needs to be more thought behind what people say.

[42:49] Patrick Oliver Jones: In writing that show, was it somewhat of a way for you to kind of process and kind of deal with the years that had led up to you being in New York?

[42:59] Roberto Araujo: Absolutely, absolutely. Of course, it starts as a vanity project. I just want to be on stage, you know. And you know, when I was with Carnival, I was doing my own show, so that kind of like fed that like I want to do it again. It was so satisfying and choosing my own material. And I remember speaking with one of my vocal coaches, my first vocal coach in New York was Christopher Denny. And I remember back then he I said something like, I want to do my own show. And he's like, And why are people gonna come see you? Like, what do you have to say? Like, they're gonna pay however much the ticket costs and to drink minimum for you to just sing songs, you need to say something. You need to say something that's valuable and like has importance.

And maybe when you're 20, maybe you might have the best voice in the world, but maybe you might not connect with the material the way you would when you've gone through more in life. So I kind of I've I kind of make that a point in the show. I don't talk a lot about my career. I talk a lot about my experiences. The career was is there, but we all have done shows. We all came here to be on Broadway and to, you know, like we all did that. And we've all seen that cabaret. So what can I give you that's different? And I think my journey is very unique.

[44:30] Roberto Araujo: With the cabaret being so personal, is there a part of the show or a certain section of the show that is more difficult to go through than others?

[44:38] Roberto Araujo: Yes. There's two parts of the show that always get me. Um so about three years ago, I got diagnosed with an autoimmune disease called myasthenia gravis. That whole process was very scary. Myasthenia gravis is a breakdown in communication between nerves and muscles. With me, it started manifesting in having double vision at all times. Like one day I woke up and I was seeing two images. And then after a few days later, my left eye was really droopy, like I was having a stroke. Um then three months went by, and after a million tests, they told me I had myasthenia gravis. But like I lost strength in my arms and legs. Like I couldn't hold the camera for more than 10 minutes because my arms would just not have strength at all.

[45:42] Patrick Oliver Jones: Oh wow.

[45:43] Roberto Araujo: It was terrifying. Apart from just photography, I assume that affected your performing career greatly as well.

[45:51] Roberto Araujo: Exactly. That's when I like took a step back because like I'm not gonna go into a room and try to do a dance call or read sides. Like I literally couldn't do it. On top of my eye really were like I couldn't open my eyes. Like I would like walk around lifting my chin because I couldn't open my eyes, like my body had no strength.

[46:17] Patrick Oliver Jones: Are you still battling that or was that something that was able to be treated?

[46:20] Roberto Araujo: I started treatment back three years ago. And then about a year ago, we stopped the treatment. I go to the neurologist every six months, every four months actually. And I got much better, but it's something that I feel like just lingering. If I don't rest, if I get stressed, I can feel my eyes get weak.

[46:48] Patrick Oliver Jones: That illness really took away your passion. It affected both your photography and your performing abilities. And it seems like a lot of your work is there to tell a story. That seems the driving force of all the different creative outlets that you've pursued.

[47:06] Roberto Araujo: Yes, I think what's under that and what motivates you to sing is more important. I did West Side Story a couple of times with Bob Richard and Diane Laurenson, and they have a thing where they say, steps suck. Like, I don't want you to dance. Like, tell me the story. So that's something that kind of really embraced. Like, I don't want someone who sings pretty. I want someone who's like in the story. I want to know that you're understanding this material, and I want you to in this picture that I'm gonna take of you, I want you to tell me who you are and what roles you're gonna be playing, and you can capture that in an image. So tell me that story.

[48:01] Patrick Oliver Jones: Roberto's story is certainly one we can all learn from, not only as actors and the basics of getting that right headshot, but also as individuals and being open and accepting of the various individuals and stories that come into our lives. Just as Roberto discovered how important it is that each of us discover our true selves and showcase that to the world. Sometimes it'll be a funny story and entertaining, while at other times it can be difficult and heartbreaking. I am so grateful to Roberto for sharing both sides of his own story and being so vulnerable today. And I also greatly appreciate you joining us for this conversation.

[48:49] Patrick Oliver Jones: And speaking of that, I'd love to have a conversation with you in the form of a short survey. This episode begins the second half of season four, and I would love to know your thoughts and impressions on the first half. As I mentioned, I'm refocusing the podcast on its original theme and message of making it in this business, and your answers and insights will be a big help in making that happen. You are such an integral part of the WINMI community, and these episodes are not just interviews with fellow artists, they are also a conversation with you. And I'm so happy you're a part of it. Just go to survey.winmepodcast.com. A link to that survey is also in the show notes.

[49:42] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, stay tuned for the next episode where I ask Roberto the final five questions. I'm your host, Patrick Oliver Jones, and until next time, here's a little behind the scenes peek at the culinary conversation Roberto and I had after the interview here on Why I'll Never Make It.

[50:05] Patrick Oliver Jones: All right, sir. Well, that's it. See? Easy and painless.

[50:07] Roberto Araujo: Easy peasy.

[50:10] Patrick Oliver Jones: Thank you so much.

[50:11] Roberto Araujo: Thank you so much. This was really fun. I love talking to you.

[50:14] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, once you know quarantine is all over, we'll have to definitely meet up face to face so we can say hi to each other.

[50:20] Roberto Araujo: Yes.

[50:20] Patrick Oliver Jones: Or just come over and I'll make something really good.

[50:24] Roberto Araujo: I will never refuse to have someone cook for me.

[50:26] Patrick Oliver Jones: No, I love that. I love that.

[50:28] Roberto Araujo: Yeah, yeah. You could do some actual authentic dishes.

[50:31] Patrick Oliver Jones: Exactly. Exactly.

[50:32] Roberto Araujo: Yeah. I mean, I do my best. I love it when it's taco night. I'm the hard shell. My husband only does soft shell. So, you know, that is, is there one that's more Mexican than the other, more than authentic?

[50:43] Roberto Araujo: Well, hard shell would not be Mexican.

[50:46] Patrick Oliver Jones: Oh, okay, that's interesting.

[50:48] Roberto Araujo: Yeah.

[50:49] Roberto Araujo: Maybe it's that whole thing of like it's Tex-Mex, but not...

[50:49] Patrick Oliver Jones: Oh, I see.

[50:54] Roberto Araujo: Like it's something that was born in like the strawberry nice.

[51:00] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[51:01] Roberto Araujo: That doesn't exist.

[51:01] Patrick Oliver Jones: So does any hard corn shell exist in any dish?

[51:07] Roberto Araujo: Uh like a tostada, you know, like the flat one, like that's it's hard shell, like...

[51:15] Roberto Araujo: Oh okay, okay. That that's the only one I can think of because everything else is soft.

[51:21] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, my favorite, it's I mean it's a bastardized version of a Mexican dish, but is the Taco Bell Mexican pizza. I love it.

[51:29] Roberto Araujo: I love it.

[51:33] Patrick Oliver Jones: I mean, there's really nothing Mexican about it. And what's so interesting is that over the years it used to be so, yeah, so the bottom it's the refried beans with the meat, and you know, and then you have another flour hard shell. And on top of that is the it used to be cheese, tomatoes, green onions, sour cream, olives. I mean, it used to be like a pizza. And now all it is is the cheese.

[52:01] Roberto Araujo: Oh, really?

[52:02] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, that's all they do. Like all those other ingredients have been cut as the price goes up. That's how they make money.

[52:10] Roberto Araujo: Oh my gosh.

[52:11] Patrick Oliver Jones: No, I'll make you something good.

[52:13] Roberto Araujo: I'll make you something good.

[52:14] Patrick Oliver Jones: Oh, I like that. I like that.