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[0:12] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Welcome, everybody, to a musical theatre podcast where we discuss the cultural and emotional impact of some of our favorite musicals in theatre history. My name is Jeffrey Scott Parsons. You can call me Jeff. Today, we are discussing the musical Sunday in the Park with George, which has not only been a listener request for years now, but lives at the top of many of your greatest musicals of all time lists. Listener Casey wrote in and said, "I cannot wait for your return to Sondheim's canon with your episode on Sunday in the Park with George!" Listener Emma wrote in and said, "It is such a beautifully nuanced story of the human condition and how art can connect us in the most intimate ways. Also, Bernadette Peters and Mandy Patinkin, come on!

Perfect musical!" And then listener Brayden wrote us saying, "This show came to me during a rough breakup and watching how Dot and George interact really paralleled my life. The show helped me heal from heartache." Isn't that so sweet? It's clear that this episode has been a long time coming and I'm so grateful that y'all are jazzed for it, which could be a lot of pressure, right? Well, not when I have today's guest. She's maybe best known as the original Little Red Riding Hood in Into the Woods, but a few years before that, she made her Broadway debut in the game-changing original cast of Sunday in the Park with George. She was also an MVP in A Year with Frog and Toad, among many other credits. Everyone, please welcome the girl forever wanting her glasses, Danielle Ferland! Yay!

[2:02] Danielle Ferland: So grateful you're here. Holy cow. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. What I always say about Sunday in the Park, and I think I've said it on the podcast before, is that above all other musicals, it's the show that changes the most as I change, right?

[2:19] Danielle Ferland: That makes sense, yeah. I discovered your cast album and the filmed version and everything in my teenage, like high school years, and I was first immediately taken by the concept of it all, the music, but also the way that it helped me relate to art history, because every piece of this has a story and a symbol. And then fast forward to my 20s, I start maybe seeing myself more as an artist and then found the show on a whole new level. And then a little later in my 20s, fell in love for the first time, and then I was destroyed by it. So every phase of my life reveals something new to me about this show. Now, I can only assume that's a bit of an understatement for you.

[3:02] Danielle Ferland: Well, it's funny, because you actually hit the nail right on the head for me. It's definitely something that started, you know, meant something to me that's very different than how that has evolved for me over the years. Sure. There are times in my life where I cannot listen to it. Like, I remember when I was a teenager, it just would bring up so many emotions that I was sort of not hiding from them, but like, I need to process because every time I revisited it, just like you, it would just, you know, impact me emotionally in so many different ways.

[3:40] Danielle Ferland: Wow. And our whole relationships to art in this business, it's a lot about that, too. It's how it's perceived, what people expect from you, what, you know, going into act two, you know, do I stay, play it safe? Do I keep creating something new? How do I deal with external approval or like criticism? And it just means so many different things that you don't, I didn't understand that when I was 12. I was just sort of happy-go-lucky, and I kind of missed that ignorance is bliss time because, you know, you can't go back to that. You know, we do age a bit, but yeah, it's really so profound, and I love talking about it. I tell people, you know it when the Pulitzer, you know, because I like to brag about it.

[4:23] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, you should, 100%.

[4:25] Danielle Ferland: I do.

[4:25] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So you were 12. Is that when you started?

[4:28] Danielle Ferland: Yes, well, 11 when we did the Off-Broadway at Playwrights Horizons.

[4:33] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh my gosh, 11. That's crazy. Now, 11 years old, I'm not even sure what grade I was in at 11. Is that fourth, fifth, maybe?

[4:41] Danielle Ferland: I think I was fifth. Yeah.

[4:43] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Okay. Which means I, I mean, I don't mean to brag, but, you know, you were in Sunday in the Park with George, and I was in Peter Pan at Box Elder High School, and the only child. So you can ask for my autograph later.

[4:57] Danielle Ferland: That's a big deal.

[4:59] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: But my point being like, what do you remember of this, actually? Because I have little pieces of my 11-year-old self, but that's got to be kind of trippy.

[5:06] Danielle Ferland: It is trippy. I remember a tremendous amount.

[5:14] Danielle Ferland: Really?

[5:15] Danielle Ferland: Yeah, I don't, you know, I didn't really realize the impact of what working with Sondheim was when I was cast. I didn't, you know, I learned about it. I mean, how about what, how people felt about him and how he was, you know, revered and respected in this business. And, and the process was really fascinating. I mean, it went through so many stages. I mean, I know that's Lapine, too, when he's creating something. It was, I mean, it started out as one act that turned out to be, I don't know, do you know any of this? I can just give you a brief history.

[5:52] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually, let's go into it a little bit deeper.

[5:55] Danielle Ferland: Yeah. I think I first want to know, though, what was your context going into it? Had you done musicals before? Did you have something to compare it to?

[6:01] Danielle Ferland: Well, I will tell you, I was, that summer, I was also doing Gypsy at the Candlewood Playhouse in near Danbury, Connecticut. I was a commuter from Connecticut, and we almost didn't go to the audition because it was a Saturday and the trains were on strike. And my dad was like, I guess I gotta drive in. I mean, he did it. And my parents, again, were games. So we got to Playwrights, and we walked in, and there were no fewer than like 40 young girls there. And my dad was like, Jesus, you know, like, it was so interesting. And I remember the audition really clearly. I remember Lapine directing me in a lot of, I felt, very effective ways. He was so good at directing young people. You know, you don't realize it at the time. You just know you're connecting with someone and finding the language they're speaking is working.

[6:55] Danielle Ferland: And then you're like, wow, that's actually what directing is.

[6:58] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[7:02] Danielle Ferland: And he, I don't know how much experience he had directing kids before that, but he would give me a little—

[7:03] Danielle Ferland: Much of the falsettos, so I guess one kid.

[7:06] Danielle Ferland: Which is, falsettos is like, I can make Bill Finn rest in peace. But anyway, he gave me a piece of music and just some direction, like, now do it flirty, now do it this. And I sang my song, and I remember him having me sit on the edge of the stage and just sing it, like, really ask the questions, really don't perform. Like, it was really effective.

[7:28] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Did I read that you did Where Is Love from Oliver?

[7:32] Danielle Ferland: How did you? Oh, my gosh. That's amazing.

[7:35] Danielle Ferland: I read that in Lapine's book.

[7:37] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Wow.

[7:37] Danielle Ferland: Oh, right, right, right, right. Yes. Yes, absolutely. And—

[7:41] Danielle Ferland: That's so sweet.

[7:42] Danielle Ferland: Yeah, I got the job. And then eventually, when I went to Broadway, they called me, and I just ended up moving with it. I don't remember how much time passed. But yeah, Act Two went in maybe like three or four days before the show closed.

[7:58] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Which is just insane. I mean, truly. And I think that that's what's so fascinating when you look at the Broadway musical theater history context of the show, because you have to remember just a few years earlier, Sondheim had, I mean, his, quote unquote, disastrous flop, Merrily We Roll.

[8:16] Danielle Ferland: Oh my God, which is still one of my favorites.

[8:20] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Exactly.

[8:20] Danielle Ferland: The score, I know.

[8:21] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: In many ways, stood the test of time. But 13 performances or something like that after a very troubled, long preview period.

[8:30] Danielle Ferland: That's so sweet.

[8:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right, right, right. And that kind of marks the end of his collaborations with Hal Prince in a way, and for no other reason than I think that that failure was really tough. So then when it came time to find somebody new to work with, it was almost like a blind date, if you will, where somebody, a mutual friend set up Lepine and Sondheim to meet together, and they got together and smoked a joint and just talked about stuff, which was—

[9:01] Danielle Ferland: That's how most things get solved, don't they?

[9:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: True, right? Which was just so different than Hal Prince, right? And not to say that one is better than the other, but Sondheim's growing up with Oscar Hammerstein II as his mentor, and then goes straight into, you know, Mr. Broadway himself, Hal Prince. So going now to just somebody's loft and smoking a J is definitely a different way of creating a musical.

[9:31] Danielle Ferland: And I think that he thought it was kind of exciting. Now, Lepine at that point, like we said, had done March of the Falsettos with Bill Finn, which is a beautiful piece of theater, but not a traditional musical in any way, shape, or form. And from what I understand, Lepine just didn't really consider himself to be, number one, a director, or number two, a musical theater guy. But when the opportunity comes to work with Sondheim, you don't say no.

[9:59] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right.

[10:01] Danielle Ferland: So he said, let's go for it. And the stories of how they came to this are just so inspiring and weird and creative, where Lepine brought pictures of paintings and just put them on the floor and said, hey, do any of these spark any joy? And I guess I'm treating this like a Marie Kondo thing. It's not meant to be, but truly, go through the images and see if anything speaks to you. And they landed on this painting by George Seurat, A Sunday Afternoon on the Island of La Grande Jatte, which I am currently reading in front of me because I can never remember all of the words. It's a long title. You've, of course, seen this in real life, right? In Chicago?

[10:45] Danielle Ferland: Seen what? Oh, yes, but only after many years. I think I was in my mid-twenties, but I was out there to do a little work and I blocked a significant—because I'd seen studies in the Met and stuff. But yeah, it was extraordinary. I mean, I sat, I was alone. I mean, I knew it was big. I knew it was much larger. I mean, it's in its own room, which I think you probably know. That's what surprised me.

[11:18] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, it takes up a whole wall and there's benches and there's a lot of people just reflecting and sitting. And I don't remember how long I was there, but it was like, it hit me like a ton of bricks. I mean, the pointillism alone on that scale, you know, and the fact that it's like a screen. I mean, it doesn't look like a screen, but knowing what went into it. I mean, obviously, the detail of how he developed this style. And it was really, it was overwhelming. And I was quite tearing after a while, just thinking through everything, you know, it was pretty profound.

[11:55] Danielle Ferland: The painting painted from like 1884 to 1886, like over a two-year period. And Seurat is an interesting and kind of a perfect person to write a musical about because he wasn't commercially successful. He died young. He wasn't mainstream in any way.

[12:14] Danielle Ferland: Not mainstream. In fact, very much pushing the envelope in terms of what painting techniques are even possible.

[12:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, it's in the show. I mean, you know, Charles Kimbrough playing this guy who's like, why are you going outside? I mean, and they have this whole conversation about like, why are you trying to do something different? This doesn't make sense. This isn't successful.

[12:38] Danielle Ferland: Which is 100% what Lapine and Sondheim were doing.

[12:40] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Welcome to A Musical Theatre Podcast. Today, we’re diving into the world of "Sunday in the Park with George," and I’m thrilled to have with me the original cast member, Danielle Ferland.

[13:10] Danielle Ferland: Thanks for having me, Jeff! I’m excited to talk about this show.

[13:40] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So, let’s start at the beginning. What was your audition process like for "Sunday in the Park with George"?

[14:04] Danielle Ferland: It was quite unique, actually. I remember the audition being very different from what I had experienced before.

[14:14] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: In what way?

[14:34] Danielle Ferland: Well, the material was so specific and the style was unlike anything else. It really required you to connect deeply with the character and the music.

[14:54] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That makes sense. And you were quite young at the time, right?

[15:14] Danielle Ferland: Yes, I was just a teenager! It was my Broadway debut, and I was both excited and terrified.

[15:34] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: What was it like stepping into such a groundbreaking show?

[15:54] Danielle Ferland: It was incredible. The energy in the room was palpable, and being surrounded by such talented people was inspiring.

[16:14] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Did you have any memorable experiences during the rehearsal process?

[16:34] Danielle Ferland: Absolutely! There were moments of laughter and creativity that I’ll never forget.

[16:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Can you share one of those moments?

[17:04] Danielle Ferland: Sure! There was a day when we were all trying to figure out a particular scene, and we ended up just cracking jokes and improvising. It really brought us together.

[17:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That sounds like a great bonding experience.

[17:44] Danielle Ferland: It really was. It helped us all feel more comfortable with each other and the material.

[18:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: How did you find your character, "Little Red"?

[18:24] Danielle Ferland: Finding her was a journey. I had to dig deep into her motivations and the themes of the show.

[18:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And what do you think those themes are?

[19:04] Danielle Ferland: I think it’s about the struggle of the artist and the importance of creating, even when it’s difficult.

[19:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That’s such a powerful message. Did you ever find your glasses during the production?

[19:44] Danielle Ferland: (laughs) Yes! I had a habit of misplacing them, but I eventually got better at keeping track of them.

[20:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Good to hear! It sounds like you had a wonderful experience overall.

[20:24] Danielle Ferland: I truly did. It was a formative time in my life and career.

[20:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And now, looking back, how do you feel about the impact of "Sunday in the Park with George"?

[21:04] Danielle Ferland: I think it’s a timeless piece that resonates with so many people, especially artists.

[21:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely. It’s a show that continues to inspire new generations.

[21:44] Danielle Ferland: Yes, and I’m grateful to have been a part of it.

[22:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Thank you for sharing your insights, Danielle.

[22:24] Danielle Ferland: Thank you for having me, Jeff!

[22:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And to our listeners, if you enjoyed this episode, be sure to check out our previous episodes and follow us on social media.

[23:04] Danielle Ferland: Yes, and don’t forget to follow me on Instagram at @ferlanddr to stay updated on my projects!

[23:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Thanks for joining us today on A Musical Theatre Podcast.

[23:44] Danielle Ferland: It’s been a pleasure!

[24:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Until next time, keep celebrating the magic of musical theatre!

[24:24] Danielle Ferland: Bye everyone!

[24:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Bye!

[25:21] Danielle Ferland: I totally relate to that. This business is so up and down, and it's a long life. The challenge of dealing with what people say and do and expect, and I do think because it's out in the public, people feel they can say things. You develop a thick skin, and rejection's not about you. I am an artist, though, so I can't be anything else. It's not work. It's art, and that's just my whole DNA. This whole show feels like it was put together with what-if. Like, what if the old lady is George's mom? What if the woman in the foreground is his mistress, and they had a baby together? Right. And they had that. She's apparently based on an amalgamation of other... He had a mistress. He had a mistress. Obviously, her name wasn't Dot.

Well, hello. Yeah, I mean, it's sort of conjecture based on what they knew about him, and just the whole way the music reflects the style that he paints in. I mean, it's... Michael Starobin lives in my memory, like Ira Weitzman from Playwrights. I mean, these are people who I loved, who I really connected with. Andre Bishop, who was the artistic director of Playwrights at the time. I mean, titans of theatre, right? Yeah. And I was like, hey, what's up? You know, like I enjoy... High five, boys. No, I think they all liked me. I mean, I was pretty likable. I wasn't a bratty theatre kid, you know? And you weren't a creepy pro kid either. No, I hadn't. And you know what? By the way, I had heard they wanted... They didn't want someone who was a creepy pro kid.

You know, I think they wanted... I don't think it was as much about a new talent as it was just about working with a human being. Because kids are tricky, as we all know. I don't know. I know. You know. How old are your sons? Get ready, 19 and 15. Come on, teenage boy. Artists. My son, my older son, is an amazing classical pianist. He's extraordinary. And my younger one is very into film and edits. And yeah, he could direct car commercials for Porsche tomorrow. I mean, literally, he's amazing. So there you go. I wonder where they get it. Seriously, they were doomed. Sorry, kids. So when the show finally does open, though, two very important things get added to the second act. And we'll talk about them later.

But they are lesson number eight and children in art, which kind of pull everything together. And they deserve their own conversation. So we'll definitely get there. But the show opens. And now word of mouth is traveling that this show is something extraordinary, gets a good review from Frank Rich, from the New York Times. And it's an interesting Broadway season because it's La Cage Aux Folles and you guys. And in an interesting turn of fate, La Cage wins best musical, but Sunday in the Park wins the Pulitzer for drama, which I love. I love when the love gets spread around in that way. But on Patreon! which is where I can have subscribers come and listen to bonus episodes. We have this series right now where we're covering all of the Pulitzer Prize winning musicals.

The thing that really stood out to me when looking at it in its place in the Pulitzer winners, which there aren't very many in musicals that won the prize. Sunday is the first one where it's a show about artists arting. Yeah. And it kind of plants the seed that then gets revisited when Rent wins, when A Strange Loop wins. And then I got thinking even more, was Sunday in the Park with George the first musical about artists creating art? Yeah. The art of making art. The art of making art. Put it together, baby. But I mean, maybe Merrily, but I don't think Merrily is about making art. I think Merrily is about relationships and how time affects them. Sunday's about art and everything that happens because of it.

But it does have that stuff in it about this isn't a tune you can hum, which is, I know, what Sondheim has heard before. You know what I mean? Yeah, that's been the feedback. Yeah. Well, paving the way for younger composers. I mean, he really opened the door to make that. I remember people saying that to me when I was doing the show. They were like, yeah, there's nothing wrong with letting them tap their toes a bit. He had to, you know, stay true to who he was, which is what he does. I mean. There's a funny Lapine quote because he ended up writing the book for Hunchback of Notre Dame for Disney. And at some point, a Disney executive said, you know, James, we'll sell a lot more tickets if Quasi can end up with Esmeralda at the end.

That's really realistic, too. Just like if you've ever read the Victor Hugo novel, you're like, how could we possibly do that anyway? But like the idea that he's creating Sunday and it's his first Broadway outing. I don't think he had really ever come across anything like commercial Broadway, you know? Well, and also, like you said, after what had happened to Sondheim with Merrily. All right, anyway, go on. So then how long was the show open? How long were you with it? Were you with it the whole time? No. You know, at the time, you know, I'm commuting. We're trying to live our lives. And I was always in danger of having to repeat like a year of school because of credits. Like, I didn't go to school at all when I did Sunday.

I did when I did Woods. I went for like half a day. Oh, wow. They rearranged my schedule. You know, a lot of people are like, why don't you live in the city? I just think I was close enough. There are people who live four hours away. They couldn't do that. And they moved to the city for six months with their mom. And it just wasn't something that we were gonna do. It's not like we even discussed it. It was like, no, this is close enough. I think I did it for eight or nine months. And it was only open, I don't know, was it a year? Was it two years? Yeah, well, I don't think it was two years because the Sondheim show's never run that long. No, it was like three quarters of the run, I think. And there was always this thing, by the way, of, I don't know if you know, so in the painting, the little girl is really small.

She's probably three, four. And Dana Ivey already wore platforms because they wanted it to be as true. And I remember everybody joking, don't grow, like Steve would even say that to me, don't grow anymore. But you know, I wasn't like anxious about it. But I was like, haha, you know, like- So what do you do? And just this is a question for me. It doesn't really have anything to do with Sunday. But what does your life look like between Sunday and Into the Woods? I did an off-Broadway show called Paradise. Okay, so you're still working? Yeah, that Ted Pappas directed. George Wolfe wrote it. George C. Wolfe. Oh, good heavens. Good heavens, Danielle. Yes, was received with a lot of mixed, a lot of negative.

I got some good stuff. Charlene Woodard was in it. Yes. And Ben Wright played my brother. No way! Yes way. Jack himself. Yeah. And yeah, exactly. And that was when I was in, because I was in Sunday when I was in eighth grade. Like, eventually, like, that's when, and then that was in ninth. And then, the Woods process started when I was in 10th. I did not go to San Diego, which was a big decision. Because again, it was like, how are we going to do this? You know, like, my sister was still really young, and my mom would have had to go. And again, it was like, what are you doing? I was really lucky they called me when we got back to the city. And I had to learn. I know things now. And I remember being like, that time did not change a lot.

But I know we're not talking about Woods, but I was lucky. I mean, I remember, I didn't realize it at the time again, how I was very grateful for that. So. Excited and scared is one of, like, my mantras in life. Well, it's totally all, you know, anxiety comes with positive things, too. You know, it's like moving and having children or anything. It's like, just because you're, it's something to look forward to doesn't mean you're not, like, anxious about it, you know? Sure, sure. Absolutely. With the time that we have left, I would love to go through Sunday a little bit. Because now, I mean, you have a director brain and everything. And I'd love kind of your insight into some of these characters.

Because it seems like when stuff was getting cut, and the show was being figured out, they realized they needed to really hone in on George and Dot as kind of one of the main thrusts. But that doesn't mean that there aren't really fascinating characters throughout. The show, of course, begins with George sketching Dot on a Sunday in the park, right? On the island of La Granchotte. And it's this perfect, it's one of my favorite opening numbers that isn't like a big- Like an ensemble opening number, right? Exactly. Because it's everything that you need to know, right? George is this enigma, and a genius. And it's through Dot, kind of really up until finishing The Hat, that we learn about who he is.

It's through her eyes. Absolutely. And everything she does, especially the relationships, like how his personality affects anyone in his life, especially someone trying to be close to him, it's all out there. You're right. And she's also the one I think that the audience connects to, right? Audiences don't connect to the genius. We're not like, oh, I feel represented. But this, I mean, especially when it's Bernadette, this cute-as-a-button woman who doesn't want to stand in a freaking corset and bustle when it's 100 degrees outside, that we can get behind. On a freaking weekend, right? On her weekend, no less. Yeah. And it's like, what are you willing to do for someone you love, knowing? And always thinking, when he's done with work, we'll go to the Follies.

Like, oh, see, when he's off work, again, it becomes apparent- Exactly. It becomes apparent that he can't distance himself. What else do you think about with Dot? What do you think she wants? What are her insecurities? Oh, my gosh. Well, Dot is obviously passionate. I think it's interesting when you look back at the sort of fantasy sequences with all of the songs and how she busts out- Stepping out of the dress. Yes. And how much. And being a mistress. She's been a mistress. That's not a girlfriend. What does she hope for eventually? I think she really does connect with him. I don't think it's just... I mean, they look at each other and they just know they're like soulmates. I do believe they are soulmates.

There's just something about it. And I think she respects what he does. She's like both excited and scared by it. It's different. She probably has to deal with people talking about him and being like, how could you date someone like that? I just picture it like in contemporary, like what the crazy artist, good luck with that. But why does she stay? What does she want? I think she wants love and connection. I think she wants passion. And it's apparent that they have this chemistry. And obviously it played out so well with Bernadette and Mandy. It seems like she has great taste in many ways because she's standing there and is miserable and hot. But then there's that moment in the opener where she's saying everything that she loves.

She's looking at him like, I love your eyes. I love your size. And then she says, but most of all, I love your painting. And then immediately follows it up with, I think I'm painting, which is just the perfect moment. But she really does connect to him and his art. His art is a big reason why she loves him. So it's hard to be super resentful about it. No, and I love that moment because she's doing her absolute best. And it's not just because she's his girlfriend. She wants him to get what he needs. It's not like pleasing. It's like, oh, I know if I give him what he needs, he'll not just take me to the flowers, but he'll be happy and fulfilled. Which then takes me, I want to go to Color and Light, which is, I think, maybe one of the most perfect pieces of musical theater ever written.

[38:02] Danielle Ferland: The fact that all of his dun-dun-dun-dun, you know, is mimicking the pointillism, the painting that he himself, that George, is doing his painting. And then on the other side of the stage, you got Dot doing her own painting in the mirror, you know? And George looks at her at one point and is like, she stares in that mirror. What does she see? Meanwhile, what are you seeing? The projections that they have on each other are just so real. I don't even know what to say, other than if you listen to that song, there are a thousand nuances and all of them are true to relationships and art. Because it's like moment to moment, as he's describing, he's talking about what she's seeing. How he gets distracted by her.

Dot, dot, sitting, dot, dot, waiting, you know? On some level, he's like, I know she's waiting for me. I know she's waiting for me. No, finish the hat, finish the hat. The mental chatter is so fantastic. And I verbatim some other time. I love it. I did it in my one-woman show. I said, did you really? Come on, because I've always wanted to do it. I mean, I have to breathe a little bit more than he does. I just love it. Oh, that's wonderful. It's a badge of honor. But yeah, absolutely. And then the other thing is when Dot first starts singing in Color and Light, she talks about some of her insecurities. If my waist was smaller, if my legs were longer, maybe he wouldn't spend so much time with the painting.

Yeah. I mean, you know, she knows, but you know, you can't help your thoughts. No, of course. And I, but I also think that that is art takes up so much of our time and just mental energy. And I find myself doing that in my own relationship. Like I know that I'm a better partner when I go and do a contract because I can focus on the art and get it out and then come back and feel refreshed and able to get with myself. And I don't know, it's probably not fair, but it's kind of who I am and I don't know what to do about it. You know, it's just as much about like, even I don't enjoy my leisure time if I'm not busy. It's like taking the break and working. But the work for us, as you know, is the joy, investment is the joy.

And like it is, it's not just a job. It's a state of being. So you need that fulfillment. It's not enough. It's a trick. I mean, it's just a tightrope and God bless anybody who makes it work with us. But what does your hubby do?

[40:41] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: He works for Adobe. He does FaceTik with clients and tries to figure out solutions to help them apply it. But like be successful in like art and in a lot of different ways.

[40:53] Danielle Ferland: Oh, that's kind of cool. So like giving, in many ways, artists the tools to solve their problems.

[40:58] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, artists, but also, you know, business people, but like helping them be creative and figuring out how to make the most out of the products and the services that Adobe has to offer. But he also is like a guitar player and you know, all that.

[41:10] Danielle Ferland: I would love for Adobe to come on and be sponsors of the podcast. But I will say, this episode will be edited by Adobe Audition. So Adobe Creative Cloud is very much downloaded on Google.

[41:31] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Okay, let's talk about some of the other, because I think a lot of the entertainment of Sunday in the Park with George, because it is super funny, are all of these great characters like Louise, right? Who are populating the park. Can you talk about your little family unit? So you got Louise and then Jules and Yvonne. Is that right? And so who are these people?

[41:52] Danielle Ferland: Okay, so Jules is an artist who I feel sticks to the more traditional route. You know, they talk about Renoir and Monet and all that. But yeah, Jules admires, he also, they have that whole song, No Life, you know, because they, you know, as much as maybe he secretly, he's really, he's jealous. He's jealous because he knows he can't, you know, do that, that he's not strong, brave enough. And even though he's very critical of George and makes fun of him, whatever, and I can imagine him smoking a cigar, it is like at the, you know, whatever the club, like crazy Syrah painting at night. But yeah, and Yvonne too, you know, we really get a sense of their real, that scene where the four of them speak, George and Jules behind this, it's just such a real conversation about, you know, she, you find Yvonne, Yvonne is a little chilly, but she, she obviously has a rich emotional life and she, you know, she admires him.

She respects him. She's attracted to him, I'm sure. When she admits to Dot that she's jealous of her, like, it almost makes me gasp. Right, because Dot's probably like, are you kidding me? You're married. You have stability. You're not considered a slut at any point in time in your life. You're like, you have a, you're a society woman. And it's fascinating. And I think, you know, I think my parent, it's just funny. I mean, I have more interaction with Yvonne and, but yeah, I'm a little, you know, a little feisty one. I mean, you know, the boatman, hilarious, Bill Perry and I, I mean, we had a great time. And even that character, like, oh my God, he's brilliant. What if the boatman had an eye patch?

And that's the reason why he's in profile in this, in this painting. It's the what if again, you know, like, what a great idea. What do we get looking at the picture? Like we have the two women, like the Celeste are here, but they're also up there fishing and they talk about the fishing. They act that out, but that whole thing with the, how the fact that when the other soldier talks, it's just the piano rumbling. I mean, coming up with that stuff must've been a hoot. I don't remember some of that, but oh my gosh. And then the exactness of staging it, you know, it feels like such a minimal show, but when you look at how many details have to come together to make a three-dimensional object, give the energy of a two-dimensional piece. Right. Without a lot of stage time for these characters to develop.

[44:14] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. Yeah.

[44:15] Danielle Ferland: And then finding out that George's mother's there. I love, I wonder if it worked backwards where he's like, it's George mother. It's so funny. You always get a great laugh on that.

[44:26] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I know. And the nurse's line where she's like, it pays for the nurse who is tending to mine. And that's just insane. Obviously she has to go out and earn a buck. You know, it's like people who work in daycare who have kids who are in another daycare. You know what I mean? It's so interesting that that is another like, oh my gosh, this little Easter egg. Let's talk about Beautiful, which is this moment when Dot has had enough with George and leaves, and he is with his mother in the park and she's kind of lamenting about how everything changes.

[45:02] Danielle Ferland: Changes, yeah.

[45:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: There are these towers that are being built. And I think that it's probably even worse now if you go to France and try to find, you know, the island of La Grande Jada, you're probably going to see a lot of apartment buildings. But the idea that George is the one who has to say the beauty is about seeing something in the moment, right? Like that is kind of what painters teach us. And he talks about what the eye arranges, which directly reflects his style. And I'll draw us now before we fade. I mean, it's so heartbreaking. And that to me is like, his aging mother too. Like there's so many levels, so many layers. It's amazing.

[45:47] Danielle Ferland: It's really beautiful. The first act ends with this chaos because we find out that Dot is pregnant. She has Louie. Everybody loves Louie. Perfect. I mean, it's so lighthearted, such a contradiction to George's personality. Right. My God. It just couldn't be a nicer baker if you wanted one. And they're going to America. So Dot's leaving, but she wants George in many ways to like, ask her to stay.

[46:16] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, of course.

[46:17] Danielle Ferland: She even says that in We Do Not Belong Together, right? You could tell me not to go. And he can't, he can't do it. But what he can focus on is creating harmony, right? And then this like true kureteatsu, he calls everybody, all of these characters that we've been seeing, scurrying about, he calls them into place. And we see the painting complete as we know it. And I was listening to this yesterday and I'm going to get emotional. I'm so sorry, Danielle, that I'm going to make you listen to me cry.

[46:49] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: But I was listening to it and you know, the cast album is in the 80s and mixing wasn't as sophisticated as it is now.

[47:00] Danielle Ferland: No, we recorded on a stage.

[47:03] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right.

[47:03] Danielle Ferland: All of us together. There was no like booths, right?

[47:05] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, right, right. And you can totally hear it. There's like, there's almost an echo to it.

[47:11] Danielle Ferland: And an imbalance of voices too, yeah.

[47:15] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And I was hearing your little voice stick out every now and then.

[47:18] Danielle Ferland: I know, I can hear it too. I point it out to my kids.

[47:22] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Trees! Truly, I'm like, because I don't have the same kind of voice.

[47:27] Danielle Ferland: No, of course, you're this little girl, right? It made me cry because I was thinking about it. And I was like, this painting isn't what it is without the little girl. And, and like hearing your little voice be part of it is like, that's this painting. If I didn't hear you on some level, I'd be like, where is she? You know, and it just, it made me cry.

[47:52] Danielle Ferland: It just made me so grateful that you were there representing yourself in such a brave, sweet way. I don't know. I don't know. It made me emotional. But I do have a very good story for you. Would you like it now or you want to wait?

[48:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh my gosh, give it to me.

[48:06] Danielle Ferland: Oh my God, it's a good one.

[48:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I would love it.

[48:07] Danielle Ferland: And I don't know how many people know it, but it's really great. I love it. Okay, get ready. You're going to... So when they put the beginning of Act Two in and he started to write and he wrote, It's Hot Up Here. Now, 11 year old Danielle Ferland didn't have good vision. So the point is, if they had cast a 20, 20 visioned child, the whole glasses thing, I mean, it evolved because of me and they discover, oh, like the end of Act One, he just has to snatch her glasses, which by the way, if you watch the Tonys, I get a close up. And again, I should have been wearing a diaper because I almost peed myself when I saw that. Because we weren't there. We had to pre-record it because of all the cutting.

[48:48] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Of course.

[48:48] Danielle Ferland: And I was like, we were like, but you know, that's true. It's that whole thing really evolved because, and I had to go to the I-Man on upper Broadway.

[48:59] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: To get the glasses made?

[49:00] Danielle Ferland: Yeah, they had these little, I still have them, these little round frames because they're like, they have to be period. And I was so happy. I didn't realize that at the time. I mean, yes, I probably realized it, but I didn't think about it. I'm like, wow, that really-

[49:15] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's in there because of you.

[49:17] Danielle Ferland: Yeah. That's a pretty awesome thing. I'm glad. I can only be grateful that I provided any kind of inspiration and that I got a laugh. You know, because people still come back to me, they're like, I love my glasses. I'm like, okay, you can talk to birds. Okay, I hear you. I've never heard that before. You're so original.

[49:34] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You have most of the best lines, so I'm sure you've heard them for the rest of your life.

[49:40] Danielle Ferland: It's fine. Anyway. The second act is really interesting because in a way, the first act is about George Seurat, who was a revolutionary and was not commercially appreciated at all. And then the second act is about a George, you know, generations later, who is commercially successful, but is questioning their contribution to the art world.

[50:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. Because he's doing, you know, Chromaloom number seven.

[50:09] Danielle Ferland: I got to churn this out because it's what people are responding to, and you get a sense even early on in the act that he's not fulfilled, you know? And of course, this George is the great grandson of George Seurat. And once again, this is all made up, but why not, you know? And then the way Marie plays into it with the...

[50:32] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Exactly. So the Chromaloom is being presented in front of his, you know, great grandfather's painting. So it is this whole, I mean, you understand the marketing of it all.

[50:43] Danielle Ferland: And modern versus, right, right, right.

[50:45] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Mm-hmm. It makes total sense. But yes, he is at a number seven at this point, and he's even receiving critiques from people saying, like, maybe you need to try something new, right? In the art world.

[50:56] Danielle Ferland: In the art world. His peers.

[50:57] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I mean, look at the person, right, Barbara Brin plays.

[51:00] Danielle Ferland: Yes.

[51:01] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's so interesting, too, that she plays that art critic. She's like the penultimate, you know, what did you really think? And she's like, pro medium number seven. You know, it's brilliant. She's brilliant.

[51:12] Danielle Ferland: Oh, gosh.

[51:13] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I used to commute with her. No joke.

[51:15] Danielle Ferland: No way.

[51:16] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: During Into the Woods. Yeah. Well, my parents wanted her and I to get to the station together.

[51:21] Danielle Ferland: We didn't sit together, but they were worried. You know, they wanted me with an adult.

[51:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Sure.

[51:25] Danielle Ferland: And she was always ready before me. She was always downstairs faster than me.

[51:29] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Pro man, the slotted spoon can catch the potato.

[51:37] Danielle Ferland: So, Marie, this is Dot's daughter.

[51:41] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, the baby.

[51:42] Danielle Ferland: Right, the baby that came to America.

[51:45] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right, which George, of course, doesn't believe all of it. She's like, no, that's me.

[51:49] Danielle Ferland: And when, you know, Bernadette comes out playing this grandma in the wheelchair, can't really move. And so it's just this devastating, vulnerable song called Children in Art, where she's talking to her mom in the painting and about George and how she's worried about him. And this was one of, like I said, this was one of the songs that went in at the last minute, which Sondheim always says he works best under pressure.

[52:16] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And he's not kidding, because Children in Art really does explain the show. You know, it's saying, what do we leave on earth? What are our legacies that we can leave? And they're both based in creation, whether it's artistic or familial, you know? And we can't control the reach of them, but they're inevitable. Thoughts on this song? I just think it's...

[52:43] Danielle Ferland: Oh, well, personal, professional. I mean, I have performed it a couple times, and the way it's evolved, relationships with mothers and daughters are very complicated. And it was, you know, it's like meant a lot to me over the years. My mom died about two years ago, and it's, she was so much a part of my upbringing in the theater. You know, and my, you know, my, it was always just us. It wasn't me, you know, because she was with me all the time. I mean, when I did Woods, I was commuting by myself. But, you know, and just what it means, all the different emotions that come with parenting, and being on the receiving end, and being an artist, and wanting someone to want the best for you, and what do they do?

Because you can't help someone who can't help themselves. And, you know, it's fascinating. I just think it's a stunningly in the way she did it. I mean, it was so simple and beautiful. And then like, who can she talk to about this? Well, obviously, there's who else could she talk to? There's no one on earth.

[54:19] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, yeah, for sure.

[54:19] Danielle Ferland: It's like, he reads the words, and then it brings the energy, the ghost of this woman, who has been in the painting. And she appears, and she naturally thinks that he is George, like her George.

[54:31] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[54:32] Danielle Ferland: And she's able to give him the message because she knows him, even though she doesn't know him. She knows him. She knows the artist. She loved artists. And it's just so beautiful that this kind of wisdom comes from a woman who maybe was thought about as traditionally uneducated or ignorant, right? But because of her, honestly, great taste and willingness to see people and understand people. And we know that at that point, that she is not those things, you know, because we've seen her.

[55:05] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: But yeah, and how she helps him work through what he needs to. And again, who could he talk to? There's nobody he can talk to. It's like this-

[55:09] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. So, and then, you know, going into move on, I can't even.

[55:12] Danielle Ferland: Well, so that's what's extraordinary is they is, you know, a dot. It's established early on in the show that she can't read or write, but she's trying, right? She has this red book, and she's doing her lessons. And it's that book, ultimately, that gets passed to, you know, young George, to new George. And as he looks through these lessons, there's the song, Lesson Number 8, that in many ways conjures dot, right?

[55:12] Danielle Ferland: Grandma, at that point, has died, too. So, you're right.

[55:15] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And this manifestation of, like, she comes to him when he needs it, you know? And like you said, he conjures her. It's pretty amazing.

[55:24] Danielle Ferland: And we often hear people talk about creativity as like a visitor, right? That comes to you. And I think it's an Elizabeth Gilbert sort of thing, where you catch creativity when it comes your way. And it's when you don't expect it. It's always-

[55:40] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, right?

[55:41] Danielle Ferland: Yeah. But you need it. I mean, you don't even know what you need until it shows up and hopefully gives you some nugget of what you want, you know, what you need.

[55:50] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And so, here's great grandma coming in the moment of need saying, anything you do, let it come from you, and it will be new.

[55:59] Danielle Ferland: Then it will be new.

[56:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[56:01] Danielle Ferland: Then it will be new.

[56:01] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Then it will be new. Give us new wisdom.

[56:03] Danielle Ferland: Give us more to see. It's okay. I mean, yes, it's always like, too, it's like with the last line of the show, it's possibility. It's leaving things open-ended, which is my favorite thing in theater. Like, I don't want everything wrapped up in a nice little bow. I mean, I know the song at the end wraps things up in a way, but it's not. It's like, how do we move forward? How do we trust our artistic, you know? I would hope that after that, he created something that did speak to him that was truly, or he at least went out and tried to discover what that is.

[56:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And you know what? It may not have been commercially successful.

[56:40] Danielle Ferland: No. No, that's the point. It's like, let it come from you, you know? And, oh, God, you're killing me here.

[56:45] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No.

[56:49] Danielle Ferland: No, it's true.

[56:49] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's an emotional show.

[56:51] Danielle Ferland: Yeah, it really is.

[56:53] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's a piece that's going to age like wine, baby.

[56:58] Danielle Ferland: It transcends time.

[56:59] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It really does. That's kind of the point, right?

[57:02] Danielle Ferland: Yeah. The themes are all things we can relate to, like as artists, as people. That won't change.

[57:10] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Because of the unique way, because I haven't seen any of the revivals to be perfectly honest, but because of the way that it was put together, do you think that people can have different takes on it in the way that maybe people do with Cabaret or, you know?

[57:24] Danielle Ferland: Yeah, because it all relates to your own personal experience. I just think there's no way you can't come leave that with some sort of thoughts about how it connects to your own life, whether you're a banker or an artist. I mean, it's because of all the relationships, the humanity of it, how things are affected, how work affects life. You're like, oh, I work 80 hours a week. Is my wife okay? I should take her to see 42nd Street.

[57:52] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, go to the Follies.

[57:54] Danielle Ferland: Yeah, and look different, how you don't know people. You sort of imagine people frozen in time or place. You're like, oh, I imagine this about this person. Their life seems perfect, but look, it's like Jules and Yvonne. This guy, even though he's a slovenly boatman who stinks, he's schvitzing, he's wiser than anybody else up there, you know?

[58:16] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes, yes, exactly.

[58:18] Danielle Ferland: Yeah, uneducated doesn't mean dumb.

[58:20] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No, it sure don't. Well, the same thing with taste, right? I think a lot, especially in the art world, I'm the first person to be like, you're going to pay millions of dollars for that? All right, whatever you say, whatever you say. I get it, but I know people who it's like quantity, not quality. They sort of brag about how many shows they see. I'm like, you didn't see that? You're in the business. I'm like, you know what? It's not that I think something's lesser than. It's like I know what I'm interested in seeing, and sometimes I'll be interested in seeing other things. It depends, but I'm not just going to go see everything, just see it. I think that's totally valid until you start bragging about the number of things you see.

[59:01] Danielle Ferland: Until you start making other people feel bad about not doing it.

[59:05] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, or trying, and I'm like, okay. I also don't want to pay 60 bucks to sit in the lab. I will, but I'd rather pay a little bit more. I need to be a little, my eyes, you know what I mean? I need my glasses.

[59:16] Danielle Ferland: Exactly. I had amblyopia. I had a patch when I was in kindergarten. A lazy eye. And so did my husband, but that's what's funny. That's how we first connected.

[59:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, we all both had a patch, because that's how they tried to strengthen your eye.

[59:30] Danielle Ferland: I remember that. I feel like we all had that girl, or boy in kindergarten.

[59:34] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: First day of kindergarten.

[59:37] Danielle Ferland: Yeah.

[59:37] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Can you imagine? Great. Let's start kindergarten. What's wrong with you? Are you a pirate?

[59:42] Danielle Ferland: You know what I mean? So wait, now I need to know, do your sons have glasses as well? Were they screwed?

[59:48] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No. That's amazing.

[59:52] Danielle Ferland: That's kind of amazing. My husband's parents had pretty good vision, and then they got lazy, and now it's like, occasionally you see that little alien disc in the eye, which circles, and I used to think I imagined it, until one day I asked my father, and he's like, no, that's actually, and I was like, oh my God, I thought I was going crazy, or you'd been possessed.

[1:00:11] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I was like, what am I seeing? Because it would flicker, and I was like, I thought it was me.

[1:00:16] Danielle Ferland: That's incredible.

[1:00:18] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It is.

[1:00:22] Danielle Ferland: I don't think I've seen that disc. I'm going to have to look for it now.

[1:00:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's the tell.

[1:00:26] Danielle Ferland: You're going to be like this, looking at people.

[1:00:26] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Come a little closer.

[1:00:30] Danielle Ferland: Exactly.

[1:00:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's amazing. Danielle, thank you so much for doing this with me. My gosh, what a total joy and pleasure.

[1:00:32] Danielle Ferland: Thank you. This has been wonderful. It's so nice to talk. It's like, how often do you get to have these conversations where you're just revisiting, and also, obviously, you have such great passion, and you care about what you do, and I can just, it's a real pleasure. I like what you're putting out there, so keep it up.

[1:00:50] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Thank you. Thank you so much.

[1:00:52] Danielle Ferland: You're very welcome.

[1:00:53] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: As always, if you have a recommendation for shows you'd like us to cover on A Musical Theatre Podcast, you can always email me at amusicalpodcast at gmail.com. Join us at Patreon exclamation point, where you can receive bonus episodes like the one I talked about earlier, our Pulitzer Prize-winning musical series with David Armstrong. It's really, really fun. Patreon.com slash amusicalpodcast. We're also on social media, always trying to create the content, share the love. Be sure to like, subscribe, share that stuff, man. I'm putting it out there for everybody's enjoyment, so the more that you can share it, the more I feel justified in putting all of the time to make it. More than anything, so grateful you are here at A Musical Theatre Podcast. Danielle, before you go, please share with us how we follow you. Is there anything you want to plug?

[1:01:40] Danielle Ferland: What am I plugging? I mean, I am hopefully going to do my one-woman show again. I don't know. It's still evolving. Once I did it in one way, it kept changing. People are like, oh, so you wrote it and then you rehearsed it? And I'm like, no. If I'd done it tomorrow for the first time, it would be a little bit different. And I really felt like, I remember standing backstage and being like, what did I get myself into? But yeah, so I'm working on that. It's at FerlinDR on Instagram. I'm not so good at the social media. Hopefully going to be in a new play that we're still working on. I have no idea. It's in the reading stages, but I think it's really good, so I hope it happens. But it also is something where people seem to be giving some money, responding.

And also, because every time I do anything these days, I'm like, good luck. I mean, just because things are so expensive and so hard to get produced without. So hopefully, because I really care about it, and I'm directing a play that we're trying to get done. It's my friend Jamie's play. It's amazing. It's called Castles in the Air. We're working on submitting that, and there's just a lot of stuff always. And again, ask me tomorrow, and it'll probably be a different answer.

[1:02:46] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Lots of pots on the stove.

[1:02:51] Danielle Ferland: Exactly. Thank you so much.

[1:02:55] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Thank you, Danielle. Have a wonderful day, everybody out there. Thank you for listening.

[1:02:59] Danielle Ferland: Thank you, listeners. And remember, there are worse things than staring at the water on a Sunday.

[1:03:01] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, that's so true. There really are worse.