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[0:08] Warren Carlyle: Welcome back to our very special Lucy Simon celebration.

[0:12] Warren Carlyle: This is episode three, The Making of the SECRET GARDEN, Part Two.

[0:16] Warren Carlyle: We rejoin our host Warren Carlyle, SECRET GARDEN lyricist and book writer Marsha Norman, and composer Lucy Simon for more behind the curtain revelations.

[0:26] Warren Carlyle: We'll also be joined by original SECRET GARDEN cast members, John Cameron Mitchell, and Tony winner Daisy Eagan singing Wick.

[0:34] Warren Carlyle: And we'll hear Philip Quest and Anthony Warlow singing Lily's Eyes.

[0:38] Warren Carlyle: Let's begin.

[0:39] Warren Carlyle: Do you have a favorite song? Lucy, I know this is like asking you about your children if you have a favorite child.

[0:45] Warren Carlyle: But do you is the one particular melody or is there one particular something that you just love that particular phrase or that particular song?

[0:54] Lucy Simon: Well, how could you not love Lily's eyes? You know, that's just so gorgeous.

[1:25] Lucy Simon: She leaves the room yet remains. She lingers on something stirs me to think of her.

[1:57] Lucy Simon: She has her eyes she has her eyes the girl has Lily's hazel eyes Those eyes that saw him happy long ago Those eyes that gave him life and hope he never known How can he see the girl and miss those face girl has Lily's hazel eyes Those eyes that closed and left me all alone those eyes I feel will never ever let me go How can I see this girl who has her haze in Lily's eyes a castle this house seemed to be and I her bravest knight became my lady's hair was she has her eyes she has my lily's hazel eyes Those eyes that loved my brother never me those eyes that never saw me never knew I longed to hold her close to live at last in leaves eyes imagine me a lover I longed for the day she'd turn and see me standing there for God and let her say she has Lily's hazel eyes those eyes that sorrow's idea of her girl That's interesting.

[4:17] Lucy Simon: When we wrote that originally, when we were out of town, we wrote it, it was a trio. Ben was included in it.

[4:24] Lucy Simon: And then as we went along, we figured we wanted to just make it between the brothers. The other song, of course, that I love is How Could I Ever Know?

[4:31] Marsha Norma: Yeah.

[4:32] Lucy Simon: Beautiful.

[4:34] Marsha Norma: Beautiful.

[4:35] Warren Carlyle: Has it been easy, you know, as you've seen, as you've worked on all these versions and seen all these versions, has it been easy to let go of the past?

[4:43] Warren Carlyle: You know, even in this version of us kind of looking at it afresh and spending time listening to the score and spending time Marsha and I going through word by word and line by line, making sure that I understood everything.

[4:55] Warren Carlyle: You know, has it been easy to let go or other things that you think? Oh, I wish we kept this, or I wish we kept that. Or do you just like the freshness of here we go, it's a new adventure, it's something we know and love, but let's just let's just go forward. I'm curious about that.

[5:12] Lucy Simon: But there are ancestors that still are there, and I love that idea, you know.

[5:20] Lucy Simon: But it but it but the world, you know, the the the world of the theater and the world of the whole world changes.

[5:27] Lucy Simon: Oh, uh is this news? But the um, but by that I mean that the theater has a different taste for a different time.

[5:34] Lucy Simon: And so we had a chance to basically lighten, elevate, shorten, right, you know, make it the show that um, I mean, there were some songs like the exquisite quartet um that Lucy wrote that was for that was that was a piece of opera and absolutely exquisite.

[5:54] Lucy Simon: And we were able to finally agree that the quartet was a piece of opera, and as such it it remained, it needed to go be classified in great opera quartets.

[6:04] Lucy Simon: But it but it but it was not a it was a song that stopped the motion, right? I was unhappy to give it up, but well, you know, we did all those things and we we um and and and but there were things that wouldn't go away, like Mary's song of um I need a place where I can go.

[6:26] Lucy Simon: This song is so personal to me, because it's the song I sang as a child. I need a place where I can go where I can whisper who I know, where I can, you know, what is it, where I can something who I like and where I go to see them.

[6:40] Lucy Simon: And it and it was this intense privacy that I was longing for as a child and intense safety.

[6:47] Lucy Simon: And that's when, you know, when Dickon asks Mary to tell the bird why she wants to go in the garden, it's like, why do you want to go in your playhouse, your tree house, your secret place, you're under your bed, wherever it is that you go to be safe and have your dreams not spied on by anybody, you know, and not corrected and not you want to be you want a place where you're protected when you're a girl.

[7:15] Lucy Simon: That is all you want in life. You want home and protection, and that's what she sings in that song, and it just breaks my heart when I when I that last line when she sings, um, so I can draw the girl I mean to be.

[7:31] Lucy Simon: And that's just like she's not just gonna sit there and read comics books, she's not gonna go in the garden and and cry about her dead parents.

[7:40] Lucy Simon: She's gonna go in the garden and make that new, that new that that new Mary, the Mary she wants to be, and I think that's why it's so wonderful, actually, is that for both of you, Marsha and Lucy, this is profoundly personal.

[7:58] Warren Carlyle: This is a profoundly impression. Because both of you actually exist in in Mary in the character Mary, right?

[8:06] Warren Carlyle: I can I can feel you both in there. It's really interesting. And I and I wonder talking about it, it occurs to me how incredibly personal, how incredibly attached you are to it.

[8:24] Lucy Simon: I think Marsha is Mary, and I think I'm Lily.

[8:27] Warren Carlyle: I just there we are.

[8:30] Warren Carlyle: Okay. This is my next question.

[8:32] Warren Carlyle: Wait, so my next my you brilliantly segue. My next question is if you were a character in the secret garden, who would you be?

[8:42] Warren Carlyle: And then I was gonna answer for you.

[8:44] Warren Carlyle: So, how about this? So I'm gonna answer first.

[8:47] Warren Carlyle: And in my mind, Marsha is absolutely Dickon.

[8:51] Warren Carlyle: Absolutely.

[8:53] Marsha Norma: Oh yeah.

[8:54] Warren Carlyle: I better black hole dance where he kind of makes love to the grass.

[8:59] Warren Carlyle: I made that dance for Marsha. As I was doing it, Marsha was in my mind's eye.

[9:04] Warren Carlyle: And I was thinking if there's anyone in the world who's gonna bust open the back door and run out and smell the grass, it's gonna be Marsha.

[9:12] Warren Carlyle: And if also Lauren, if there's anyone else. I also thought if there's anyone else in the universe who's gonna get a kick out of this, and also get a kick out of us repeating it at the end in the final reveal of the garden, it's gonna be Marsha.

[9:25] Warren Carlyle: So that was my that's my answer for that one.

[9:29] Warren Carlyle: And then Lucy, you of course called it because I I in my mind you're Lily.

[9:34] Warren Carlyle: You are this beautiful ethereal magical spirit that just floats.

[9:40] Warren Carlyle: I just I see you floating, I see you walking and you float.

[9:44] Warren Carlyle: Once again, we hear from Sierra Boggess.

[9:47] Sierra Boggess: I think that Lucy is a real life ethereal goddess.

[9:52] Sierra Boggess: I just when I'm with her, you feel like you're with royalty because she's just she is so of the earth, she is so Lily, she is um she there's she has um these beautiful cherry blossoms that were planted for her on the uh opening of of SECRET GARDEN when that opened years ago, and um we are it's our goal to visit them together while they're in full bloom.

[10:19] Sierra Boggess: Um, and that that for me is gonna be one of the most special to be in the garden, Lucy's garden with her with that music.

[10:31] Sierra Boggess: That that's that's Lucy.

[10:37] Lucy Simon: I would love nothing better than to be Dickon.

[10:41] Lucy Simon: I would love to go whizzing around finding the birds that fall out of the nest, and I mean all of that craziness that he's truly at home in the world, in the world, and I mean it's the world I live in out here where I turn my camera around and you could see, but it's this world of lakes and water, trees and birds, and you know, and I'm I can't resist it.

[11:05] Lucy Simon: I can't resist the wildness of the world, and I and I was not raised to I was raised to stay inside.

[11:15] Lucy Simon: And so the fact that Dickon grabs me, and here we go.

[11:21] Warren Carlyle: Here are Lucy Simon's longtime friends and colleagues, John Cameron Mitchell and Daisy Eagan.

[11:28] John Cameron Mitchell: He was a newbie.

[11:29] Daisy Eagan: I was a newbie, but better than me.

[11:32] John Cameron Mitchell: Never not in seven million years.

[11:34] Daisy Eagan: But you took uh beautiful care of us.

[11:36] John Cameron Mitchell: You did, and uh you tended us, you weeded her, you pruned her.

[11:41] Daisy Eagan: Now look at her.

[11:42] John Cameron Mitchell: Watered me.

[11:43] Daisy Eagan: Now I'm out of control.

[11:45] John Cameron Mitchell: We love you so much.

[11:47] Daisy Eagan: This is for you.

[11:54] John Cameron Mitchell: When a thing is wick, it has a life about it.

[12:00] John Cameron Mitchell: Now, maybe not alive like you and me.

[12:07] John Cameron Mitchell: But somewhere there's a single streak of green inside it.

[12:13] John Cameron Mitchell: Come on, let me show you what I mean.

[12:21] John Cameron Mitchell: When a thing is wick, it has a light around it.

[12:27] John Cameron Mitchell: Maybe not a light that you can see, but hiding down below a sparks of sleep inside it, waiting for the right time to be seen.

[12:44] John Cameron Mitchell: Just clear away the dead parts, so the tender buds can fall, loosen up the earth, and I let the roots get war.

[12:56] John Cameron Mitchell: Oh let the roots get war.

[13:02] John Cameron Mitchell: Come on, mild day.

[13:05] John Cameron Mitchell: Come a war from a snow drop, a coming up.

[13:13] John Cameron Mitchell: Come a little.

[13:18] John Cameron Mitchell: Come to call, call in all of us to come and see.

[13:26] John Cameron Mitchell: When a thing is wick, and someone cares about it, and comes to work each day like you and me.

[13:42] John Cameron Mitchell: We'll have the grandest garden ever seen.

[13:53] John Cameron Mitchell: A little chance to grow.

[13:58] John Cameron Mitchell: If she is wicked she'll grow some road to greet the morning, free from ground below.

[14:07] John Cameron Mitchell: When a thing is wick, it has a will to grow and run.

[14:15] John Cameron Mitchell: Come a mild day, come a warm rain, come a snow dropper.

[14:26] Lucy Simon: Come a little. Come to call, come in all the rest to come. Come and all of us to come. Somewhere there's a single streak of green sight. And all through the darkest night time. It's waiting for the right time when that thing is waiting.

[15:21] Warren Carlyle: You know, when you think about SECRET GARDEN, is there anything you'd like to fix? Is there anything you're not finished with yet? Do you look at a certain scene or a certain song or a certain lyric and think, oh, I wish I'd fix that, or I wish we had the problem initially that Archie sort of left the story in the book. He leaves on page three, and he shows up again on page 153 at the end.

[15:45] Marsha Norma: And so building Archie's life was one of the things that we did that doesn't exist in the book. There's no scene in the ballroom. There's no, you know, there's no wandering around at night and time. I mean, we built a way for him to show up every 10 pages so the audience would come to want what he wants, which is to go back to when Colin was alive and was a boy and he could have a life. He didn't know that was possible. He thought he had to have Lily in it. And so I wish there, I wish somehow we'd been able to get into his mind in Paris, what he is at the end, what he thinks he's gonna jump off that bridge and it's gonna be over. And I just said to myself, Marcia, this is not that kind of show.

You can't show a man about to kill himself rescued by a spirit. And then I thought, well, we all get in bad places. And people come along with their spirits and they make us feel better. And we think, well, maybe I'll just give it one more shot. And he does. And so I, you know, I while I wish there were a way to show his grief more, we just couldn't spend the whole show talking about Archie's grief. We could show little bits of it every 10 pages. So that's what we did to keep him alive. We actually originally had a number of songs about his grief. We kept dropping them off.

[17:24] Lucy Simon: Right. And also the Martha song, Martha Find My Horse Song is another place where that was his Lucy must have written the 125 versions of that song. And, well, you know, there are just some songs are harder than others. There we go.

[17:40] Marsha Norma: Yeah, I'm not totally happy with that song, but it works. That's interesting. That's interesting for me to hear because then when we go back into rehearsal this time, it gives us an opportunity to just listen to it and look at it and see if anything occurs. I would be excited about that.

[17:59] Warren Carlyle: Audiences would be excited about that too. You know, that's a little taste treat for everyone at home to look forward to.

[18:05] Lucy Simon: Yes, and three of us are still, we're still working on this. It's not actually not a museum piece that we're wheeling out of the warehouse and putting on. This is a really new, fresh look at it from all of us.

[18:21] Marsha Norma: I love that. I'm excited about that.

[18:23] Lucy Simon: I do too. I love that.

[18:24] Warren Carlyle: Right. Is there anything that you know when you think about this, the one that we're doing right now, this version of SECRET GARDEN, was there anything that surprised you about it? You know, in that first time, because I know I kept you, I kept you away just to allow me long enough to do act one. And then of course, here you come and I'm nervous and I'm auditioning for you, and I'm wanting you so much to like what we've done. Were there any surprises? Were any like things that you just thought, oh my god, that's wild and terrible, or that's wild and wonderful?

[18:55] Marsha Norma: Well, Dickin was just brilliant. You know, his connection to the earth and scrolling. I just loved what you did with Dicken. That was amazing.

[19:08] Lucy Simon: It's because I had Marcia in my imagination.

[19:10] Warren Carlyle: Oh no, just Adam, Adam's also a fancy, he's best in the whole world.

[19:18] Lucy Simon: Adam is the best in the whole world. But it was there was there's a little Marsha in Adam there.

[19:25] Warren Carlyle: Great. I feel like Adam will be actually thrilled to hear that.

[19:30] Lucy Simon: Thank you. Oh well, you don't know how. I mean, when I when I that's the part that I saw when I just thought, oh, thank you, universe. Oh, thank you, universe. I mean, I was ready to just I mean, right? The joy, the joy, when the joy is there, it's there full out. And when the sadness is there, it's there full out. What I mean, I like that we, you know, we see this crazed opening where Mary stumbles into a nightmare that turns out to be real, which is everybody's dead at my house. And we never have to go into how that happened, because we have Frances Burnett's word that it did happen. So you know, and children are, as we know now from this pandemic, children can be left alone in the world. And then somebody, like a storyteller, like a one who sees what's the truth, helps them, brings them home, takes them to where they can be taken care of. And that I really love. I also really loved how grumpy you made Miss Medlock.

[20:38] Marsha Norma: She was so I wrote her so grumpy. Everybody kept trying to make her be nicer. And I'm going, like, no, no, she's a she's just a crinch. And and she's but but she's actually suffered, everybody has suffered from being in that house. Even Dr. Craven. And he, I believe at the end is really sorry that he got going in the wrong direction. So and we, you know, we you've chosen not to have us get a laugh when he leaves the stage and says, Thank you, Archie. And um be happy to take your hotel in Paris and leave forever. But um, but I think it's the wisest thing. I mean, there are there are illnesses that transfer in families, you know, it's just because one person is sick, it does affect everybody else. So that's not just you can help Colin get well and that'll take care of it. No, you have to make everybody get well. I think that's what you saw. And you, you, as like father of all came in and like took care of everyone.

[21:40] Warren Carlyle: Oh when you know, when we think about the future, when we think about what's gonna happen at the end of this time, what's gonna happen when we can finally gather? Do you what are you looking forward to most about actually seeing this production fully realized on a stage somewhere with an audience?

[22:00] Lucy Simon: I want to just see that dance scene. I want to see that come spirit, come charm. I want to see that boy fly. I loved that and will forever. So I want to see it when it's all costumed and glorious. I want to see everybody experience the joy and the emotion of this show. Every part of it is to me exquisite. And your production, Marsha, is just gorgeous.

[22:30] Marsha Norma: There's one other trouble spot, which I think you handled beautifully, and that's what we've always said. This is what Marcia was talking about in Paris. Do we get Lily and Archie to embrace? And I think that embrace is so important. It feels so good.

[22:52] Lucy Simon: Yeah, it's interesting. I thought of it like a release, actually. Because then them actually finally making contact allows him to let her go. It was like all tied up. It was like a coming together and a letting go. We had to have one in order to have permission for the for the other. That's how I thought of it. It's a very powerful moment. And it's placed, it happens to be placed right where we want it to. It's just where we want them to connect. And then that allows us the final scene in the garden.

[23:24] Warren Carlyle: Right. I am, you know, we've got lots of actors in this production. They're really brave and really wonderful. And the other organization that's going to benefit from this event will be the Actors Fund. So I'd love just for one minute, Lucy, if you would just, will you just say some words about the Actors Fund for us?

[23:44] Lucy Simon: The Actors Fund is a national human service organization that fosters stability and resiliency and provides a safety net for performing arts and entertainment professionals over their lifespan. Both of these organizations are near and dear to all of our hearts. And I think we're all really grateful to be able to in this small way contribute. So thank you, ladies. Thanks for thanks for contribute. It's so important to find a way to bring this whole thing together. It's not just about our show of healing, it's about healing actors and writers.

[24:21] Warren Carlyle: So that brings me to the last question I have for you. If you know, for all the people who are gonna tune in and spend the next two hours with us, and they're gonna go on this journey, and hopefully everyone will suspend disbelief and we'll all be in this magical place. Is there what are you what are you hoping that they take away from it? Like when the whole thing's done, when the whole story is told and we land in the garden and the family's complete, what would you like us to feel? What would you like us to take away?

[24:49] Lucy Simon: I think the wonder and the importance of theater, and live theater. I mean, this is not going to be live, but just it just brings the important people connection. And we've been so disconnected for this past year. So to be able to connect is so wonderful. And to be able to bring back the actors and the writers into their, you know, living out their potential. And I feel that the one of the subliminal messages of the piece is what we've experienced during COVID, which is it takes all of us to heal one of us. It takes everybody doing what they possibly can, what they possibly know how to do, what they can imagine themselves doing. It takes little Mary Lennox climbing the stairs and finding a ghost in the middle of the night to just even discover that there's a sick boy that needs her upstairs.

So it takes us looking for how we can help. And I think that's how every single person comes into the secret garden with is the characters come in with like, how can I help? And I think that's the most important message. It's like you don't get well by yourself, you get well because people gather around you, and that's exactly how Colin experiences his healing, and how Mary and how Archie and how Martha, it's how everybody gets well. And I think that that's what we're praying for and hoping for. And if SECRET GARDEN could be a part of that, it would be the blessing of our lives.

[26:27] Marsha Norma: I think that's beautiful. I think what's beautiful about it, Marcia, is that question, how can I help? How can I help? And I think that's why this evening was born. That's why we're undertaking this. Is all of us involved in SECRET GARDEN asking ourselves that question, how can I help? How can we help? And here we are.

[26:47] Lucy Simon: Thank you. Thank you. That was beautiful. Thank you. Thank you so much. This has been so much fun. I love this. I love it.

[26:54] Warren Carlyle: Um, before we get going, I just have to say a couple of quick thank yous. So I have to thank Marsha Norman. Thank you. I have to thank Lucy Simon. Thank you, Lucy. Thank you both so much. Thank you for your incredible contributions. Thank you. Artistically, creatively over the years, and for me personally on this one. Thank you. It's you're wonderful.

[27:16] Lucy Simon: You are wonderful, and it's an honor and a privilege to even be in the same room.

[27:23] Warren Carlyle: Thank you. Thank you.

[27:23] Lucy Simon: Thank you for listening to episode three of this special Lucy Simon celebration. Please stay tuned for the rest of the episodes in this five-episode series. Tremendous thanks to our guests, Lucy Simon and Marsha Norman, and to our episode host, Warren Carlyle. Huge gratitude to Daisy Eagan and John Cameron Mitchell for their new performance of Wick, accompanied by Gregory Neighbors, and to Philip Quest and Anthony Warlow singing Lily's Eyes, with narration by me, Lucy Boyle. This episode is produced by Dory Berenstein, Alan Seals, and Kimberly Garris for the Broadway Podcast Network. Executive producers are Lorraine Boyle and Liz Armstrong. Associate producer is Henny Conisberg. This series is edited by Alan Seals and Dory Berenstein.

Thank you to Victoria Troub, Sean Flavin, and Concord Music for their tremendous support and partnership on this very special project. Find out more about Lucy Simon, how to support the Leukemia and Lymphoma Society, and more ways to listen to this podcast by visiting bpn.fm/lucysimon.