This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Chris Harper: My name is Chris Harper and you're listening to Eleven, the official theatre podcast.

[0:16] William J Connolly: Hello and welcome to Eleven, the official theatre podcast that brings the biggest stars and creatives together in one place to discuss life in the arts. He's the Tony and Olivier winning producer behind some of the most extraordinary theatre of our time, renowned for his bold megacasting, powerful storytelling and groundbreaking productions with War Horse, The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night Time, People, Places and Things, Cock, Othello, The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, The Roommate, Death of a Salesman and, of course, Company, to name but a few. Now, in his latest adventure, he brings Rachel Joyce's beloved novel, The Unlikely Pilgrimage of Harold Fry, to the stage, directed by Katy Rudd, with music by chart-topping songwriter Passenger and led by theatre icons Jenna Russell and Mark Addy.

So here, in an exclusive conversation recorded just days after the show began previews at the Theatre Royal Haymarket in London, we dive into the journey of Harold Fry and why this story had to become a musical, not a play, as one hilarious meeting with author Rachel Joyce confirmed. We also uncover the joyful and unexpected connection between Curious Incident and this new show, and hear how returning to the original material became a deeply personal experience, helping him process grief following the loss of his mother. We also talk candidly about the realities of producing in the West End and Broadway, why success is never guaranteed, even when you've got a hit on your hands, and the major productions that very nearly didn't happen.

And yes, we go deep into the world of Company, including the genesis of that now iconic revival, the bold changes made along the way, how you do actually persuade Stephen Sondheim to update his masterpiece, what it's like working with artists like Jonathan Bailey and Patti LuPone, and why, for him, a life in the theatre is really just one long journey of joyful, fearless experimentation. It is the genius mind of Chris Harper, here now on this, the next episode of Eleven, the official theatre podcast.

[2:24] William J Connolly: Please help me welcome to this the next episode of Eleven, he is the genius Tony and Olivier winning producer that's helped bring to the stage some of the finest theatrical hits of the last almost 20 years, and now he's turning his magical hand to the much-anticipated London stage adaptation of The Unlikely Pilgrimage of Harold Fry in its official West End debut, and he is here to tell me all about it. Theatre posters surrounding him, I am very excited to say. Hello Chris Harper, how are you?

[2:51] Chris Harper: Very well thanks, how are you?

[2:55] William J Connolly: I do very well, thank you so much for agreeing to do this. A man of extraordinary talent and a genius brain that I've been desperate to talk to for so long, so thank you so much in advance for doing this. I have lots of questions, are you ready?

[3:04] Chris Harper: Well that's just a huge amount to live up to, so I hope I don't disappoint!

[3:09] William J Connolly: I talked to you at the point of which, and I was saying just before we start this podcast, that normally when I do this I like to have seen a project, I have lots of questions when I'm watching, I think oh I can't wait to ask about that, but actually, and there have been a couple of other occasions similar to this where I said no, I want to talk to the people behind the project before I see the show, because as I alluded to when we were talking before recording, this book is so fantastic. I remember the first time, as I know you've spoken about very openly, the first time you read it, and actually it presents so many exciting questions about adapting it for this stage, about what we can expect.

So before we talk about specifics, you are a matter of days away now from the point of which we're recording this, that you're going to open officially, although you are in previews, you know how much that book means to you and how you responded when you first read it. Where's your head at the minute? Is this the exciting or slightly terrifying moment for you all in?

[3:58] Chris Harper: Always when you make a piece of theatre, it's always constantly terrifying, and you always feel like one, you know, hair's breadth away from a total catastrophe. So, but this is the life I chose for myself, so you know, in so many ways I also love it. It's really, really thrilling when you're in previews to watch an audience experience it, and I'm having a really good time with it. I love the show, I love the book, I love the creative team that are part of delivering this show for us, and I'm actually, dare I say, enjoying myself a little bit, partly because it's really amazing watching an audience cry and cheer in the same kind of, in the same sort of moment. And so yeah, I'm having a great time, really fun.

[4:49] William J Connolly: Imagine crying and cheering is a very good response for a producer. I'm not quite so sure about an audience member, because that means we've got a lot of different emotions coming up, but that actually probably is the perfect response for this adaptation, because that's actually how I felt reading the book, which was there are so many different emotions, emotions very much leading the way. Was that your initial response when you first read the book, and was it always reading it for the possibility of something, or was it just that you came in cold?

[5:13] Chris Harper: No, how I came about it was I read it when it first came out, however many years ago that was, 10 plus years ago, and I read it and thought, what an amazing book. That was it, put it to one side, and then when we were doing Curious Incident in the West End, Rachel Joyce's sister was in it, and her sister Emily said, you should, you know, if you think you're ever turning Harold Fry into a piece of theatre, you should talk to Chris. So I reread the book again when I knew I'd got this meeting in the diary to talk to Rachel. I reread it and with new eyes thinking, hmm, I suspect this meeting might be about Rachel wanting to do a play, because particularly as Curious Incident was a play, which we got running in the West End at the time, and I thought, she's going to think I'm totally nuts, but I think it's a musical, and when we got to that meeting, both Rachel and I skirted around each other, and neither one of us quite ready to say what we felt, and as the meeting was kind of almost wrapping up, she said to me, I think it's a musical, and I said, good idea.

So we both felt the same thing, that there was a rhythm in the music, in the way that the play was written, that felt very musical, but we sat there saying to ourselves, but I don't know how to do it, and so that was about seven or eight years ago, maybe more, and we began just thinking about it, and it took a long time, took us a long time, and we went through a number of different ways of doing it, until we hit upon the idea of Passenger writing the music, and then that's when everything kind of clicked into place.

[7:00] William J Connolly: Is there a particular thing then with your mind, and the history that you have of adapting, and knowing what feels right in your gut, I imagine, which is probably where it all starts, and then you start to think about the practical reasons, as you said, with that conversation with Rachel there, you said, this has to be a musical. What was the thing that you went, no, no, no, I need to trust what I'm feeling, rather than it being a play, say?

[7:20] Chris Harper: Yeah, well, what I hang on to is what the emotional impact of the book gave me, and I felt that the themes of it were really, firstly, universal. Everybody deals with grief and loss in some way. Everybody has a dysfunctional family, better or worse, and is trying to figure out how to navigate life, and so I think that, to me, feels the kind of thing that theatre can really deal with, and it's very immediate, and it's very visceral, and I just thought there was something in the writing that made it a musical, which made me, I don't know why, absolutely sure that it should be a musical. There was sort of almost a beat. I could almost hear of the footsteps, and, you know, initially, I was thinking, wouldn't it be great if all of the music were played by some kind of props in some way?

And that was sort of the early genesis of the idea, is that music might come from the journey itself, that would help and teach Harold how to communicate with the world and himself. So that felt very, I don't know why, but it felt very musical.

[8:33] William J Connolly: So for what point of the thought, and brilliant that Rachel was on board, did you go, I think I might have found the man to do that?

[8:41] Chris Harper: Well, actually, it was my colleague, Nick Siddy, that I was working with at the time, and I wasn't very aware of Mike Rosenberg, aka Passenger, and Nick was a big fan of his and said, you know, you should listen to his stuff, and we both dug out his various albums, and, you know, he's had incredible success. And he'd become sort of globally famous for the big hit song, Let Her Go that he'd done. But when you dig into his work, he'd written incredible anthems, he'd written very tender, beautiful songs that were about things. And it was about people and about human emotions and all the things that goes through on the roller coaster journey of this book. And so we approached him and asked Mike if he would consider writing a couple of songs, and he wrote a couple of songs, and they were brilliant.

And then we asked him to write a couple more. And we sat down with him and said, look, you know, writing a musical is a really big, long, epic journey. So Mike came on about five years ago, and he'd never written a musical before, it was never in his kind of future. He didn't see writing a musical as part of his future. But I think he was really taken with the book. I suspect he might not write another musical, although he's absolutely amazing. And he could and should write anything he wants to do for the theatre or movies or anything else. But I think he was very taken with the book. It was the book itself that persuaded him that he should write for it. I don't think writing for musical theatre was ever in his cards.

So it was Rachel's writing that convinced him to come on board with it. And I think what he does is he writes poetry. He writes great poetry and sets it to music. And that's what he's done with this piece. I think the songs, particularly the lyrics, are dazzling. You know, there's one, well, there are so many favourite lyrics I've got in the show. And he's a genius when it comes to writing lyrics. So yeah, the audiences are in for a real treat.

[10:45] William J Connolly: Thank you for saying the word poetry, because that is exactly the word that I wrote down in my notes to be able to mention to you, was that, again, I haven't seen the show and that's the point of which I come into this conversation very deliberately. But having had the pleasure of coming to the launch, it felt like listening to poetry. It was genius. It felt like what a brilliant way and what a brilliant collaboration to use somebody of his ilk to be able to tell a story, as you say, that is universal, that people all collectively have been able to feel. And I think that's universal, that people all collectively have been able to feel. And actually, in a world where everything's very serious and

[11:19] Chris Harper: For lots of very important reasons and very heavy actually this feels like such a beautiful way to talk about quite a difficult subject at times in the most extraordinary way and it feels like in this world and especially with the book the heart is the best way to go to people that's the best way to get people to connect and I imagine you felt like that yeah I mean well when I first read the book my mum had begun my mum had been diagnosed with cancer and when I read it for a second time some years later my mum was coming to the end of her life and it really helped me deal with the grief and the loss of a parent and um so it felt very deep and it felt like Rachel's words were talking directly to me and when a book or a piece of art can do that I think there's something really exciting happens and I think that's what Rachel did with the book and I think that's what I'm hoping we've done with the musical um so far it feels that yeah we've achieved that but we'll see when the critics come in a week and a half.

[12:19] William J Connolly: Well obviously you did start you didn't start your life in the West End it did start in Chichester with that initial production there I mean it's not that we want to base anything and as you say you want to take what the critics say in a few weeks but I mean the response has been rather extraordinary you must be thrilled.

[12:30] Chris Harper: Yeah over the moon I mean it's um you know as I said before it's been a labour of love it's been a long journey to make this musical happen they do take a long time musicals tend to take anything from you know two to three years to ten years and we you know I've we've sort of been on this journey for nearly seven or eight years really from the beginning of that first meeting with Rachel and um uh but we opened it in Chichester in the summer of last year and the show immediately sold out it was a hit with audiences before it had even happened because you know the audiences booked tickets in droves and so we were it was almost impossible to get a ticket for the show in Chichester but what was more gratifying was the response from the audience they were absolutely loved every second of it they laughed they cried they cheered and they really felt something about Harold's journey so that was what gave us the momentum to get the show into the West End it was uh it's difficult these days getting a theatre in the West End shows tend to be doing really well so actually trying to line up all of the various elements you need to do to get a show to happen in the West End is getting harder and harder partly because things are doing so well things are running longer and things are pretty successful on the whole so getting a theatre um was it isn't easy and the guys at the Theatre Royal Haymarket decided they were not going to take any more musicals and I got them to go and see the show in Chichester and at the interval they called me and said I know we said we were never going to do any more musicals but we have to do Harold Fry so that was pretty thrilling to get that phone call and they hadn't even seen the second act yet so it uh it gives you an idea of the kind of energy and excitement that the show created in Chichester.

[14:24] William J Connolly: The magic of Chris Harper outplayed in real time there for you the charm and the power that you have but it's important to say you talk about the West End you know having these successful long-running shows and and the fact there is this actually quite limited number of theatres in the West End with your producer hat on it's important to say that while Chichester did sell out and while the audience response was great that doesn't always automatically mean that London will come calling right.

[14:42] Chris Harper: Correct you know it's um partly because there is this lack of I mean I say lack of real estate there are lots of Western theatres but the shows are just tending to do fantastically well um so trying to get a the right theatre available at the time when your director's available your writers are available and you know Mark Addy and Jenna Russell we're very happy that they've transferred in the show from Chichester but pretty much um we lost 80% of the cast because they were offered a year-long contract in another show and out when we were we've only we've got a limited run for Harold Fry we've only got 11 weeks at the Haymarket now I'm hoping fingers crossed behind my back that you know this this run will it will you know other productions will come out of it but um it's so so some of the actors were offered a year contract elsewhere rather than the 11 weeks I was able to offer them so we've got a massive cast change um I'm pleased to say although we were devastated to lose the actors to other shows the the new cast that we've got for the production in in the West are phenomenal absolutely phenomenal I couldn't be happier with the cast that we've got so yes nothing's guaranteed at all even if you've got a big success on your hands um you have to wait and wait and wait for the right theatre to come along I've got a musical that I've been working on for five years and I still haven't managed to get a theatre for it five years is a huge amount of time in this industry but when you reference about the development of this show being with your involvement in seven years actually maybe it's not every single production is like a child in its own right and they have their own kind of weird and however much you try and guide them um they go on their own journey and it can be long and complicated.

[16:34] Chris Harper: I've just done a production of Othello at the Haymarket before um before we did Harold Fry and that production was first conceived 14 years ago and Toby Jones then went off and had a very successful career in television before we came back to the idea of playing Othello it's crazy is it they can take a long time these productions you reference about when we're talking about the sort of not guaranteed transfer but has there been occasions before perhaps you don't have to talk about specifics where with all the desires and the wants in the world it just hasn't happened or have there been productions that that has happened where you have been able to transfer where it almost didn't.

[17:12] Chris Harper: Yeah I mean we did a production I did a production of Death of a Salesman at the Young Vic and a fantastically brilliant production it was like a reinvention of that play it felt like it was a brand new play um because it was done with um Willie for the first time ever Willie was played by a black actor in fact it was a black family set in a white world and that show was a huge success and we were really struggling to get a theatre and finally at the 11th hour we managed to get the Piccadilly Theatre and it was such a big success that um we wanted to take the show to Broadway but we couldn't get we hadn't got the rights to take it to Broadway and then the New York Times came and reviewed the final performance in London and then that was the thing that sort of opened the door to unlocking the rights it was so at the time we thought well that's it we'll have a lovely success with it in London and that's that and then finally it did get to go to Broadway a couple of years later but the you know you can't always predict what's going to happen and sometimes it's just the lap of the gods.

[18:20] William J Connolly: The theatre gods tell you do you like that or is that actually quite terrifying when you're in your position.

[18:27] Chris Harper: Yeah it's like a tactical journey you have to go on it's a strategy that you have to try and be open to the things that you can't predict are going to happen I mean that's the one thing in the theatre that you have to be prepared for is the unexpected you never know what's going to happen both watching a show and producing it and performing it absolutely you have to be prepared for anything and so and it's one thing Covid's taught us it's a fragile industry and you know these things can be affected so so radically by the news changing the industry changing an actor becoming unavailable and getting somebody so many variables that you have to be prepared for everything.

[19:10] William J Connolly: Do you apply the same sort of you know dream big be able to go for everything and see what happens and almost be foolish enough to believe in the crazies do you believe in that when it comes to not just the type of shows and the productions and the stories that you want to tell but the people that are in it because there isn't a Chris Harper production without extraordinary casting that's one thing you absolutely nail every single time but it feels like there's a sense of I want to say fearlessness with it where it's like no Chris Harper dream big and he he got what he wanted do you think that that aligns with how you approach things.

[19:37] Chris Harper: Well it's very nice of you to say that I mean but uh truth is actually where you start at is the original idea for the piece and then you try and grow it and you have to try and listen to what the production is telling you so something like Harold Fry I absolutely knew in my gut that what we had to do was nurture it it was a very gentle delicate beautiful artistic piece that needed a lot of nurturing um and that needed time it needed workshops it needed consideration it needed time to reflect it needed a cast that were right and appropriate for it Mark Addy couldn't be more perfect but something like Othello that we did that was directly into the West End two big star names with Toby Jones and David Harewood um it that was you know diving straight in and that production needed that kind of boldness to make it happen um so you have to kind of tailor what the plan is to the creative team the production what you're what the aim is and sometimes you you really want to start very small in the way that we did with Harold Fry starting at the Minerva Theatre taught us so much about what this production could be or might be and each step was a natural progression rather than I think we wouldn't if we'd set out to do Harold Fry direct in the West End with big stars it might not have happened it needed time for us as the creative team and the producers and the composing team and the writers to learn what it was and how to tell the story so I think it you sort of obviously dream big for every production but actually sometimes to get to that point you have to think small.

[21:32] William J Connolly: What about and when an idea comes to you where you think for example just thinking about so many of the incredible changes that you brought forward for Company which when we saw it of course it was absolutely genius of course it worked and you think how could it never have not been like this almost for people that haven't seen that original but you made two such drastic changes to it and obviously Stephen Sondheim was around when those were being discussed so where did that initial idea perhaps come to you and when again going back to the gut feeling of actually I think I've got something that's worth discussing when do you then take that beyond an idea in your brain and start having a conversation with people of his caliber to say maybe you might consider something a touch different shall we say.

[22:13] Chris Harper: Well in truth a lot of these ideas rattle around in your head for a really long time I mean the idea of Company was sort of a collection of thoughts I saw a production of it in 1990 something 95 or something at the Donmar with Adrian Lester and I'm a huge Adrian Lester fan I'm from Birmingham he's from Birmingham I'd never heard of Company until I saw the production at the Donmar and Sam Mendes directed it and it had a huge impact on me at the time I was in my.

[22:38] Chris Harper: I think I hadn't found love, hadn't found commitment, or had run away from commitment. So it resonated deeply with me, that production. And I didn't think about Company again for some years until I found myself being a single parent, having just my twins, twin boy and girl, had just been born with a surrogate in America, and they were born 10 weeks premature. And on my way to the hospital every morning, I listened to Adrian Lester singing "Being Alive." And it was the journey going to the hospital every morning, that listening to that song gave me the courage to get through what were some really tricky days of my children having been born. They were very small, my daughter was two pounds, and my son was three pounds, and they were in the NICU ward for three months.

And I listened to that song on a loop, over and over and over and over and over again. And I was looking at my daughter one morning in her incubator, wondering who she was going to be when she grew up. And I thought, gosh, how lucky am I? I'm a 45-year-old gay man, having two children with a surrogate in America, and no one's pressuring me to have got married. I have no body clock that's ticking. I was thinking very carefully about this musical because I was looking for a project to do. And I thought, what would, I wonder what Company would be like if Bobby was a woman? And how interesting that would be if the body clock is ticking, and how all of my female friends that are in their 30s are constantly being pressured.

Why aren't you married? Are you married? Have you got kids? Why haven't you got kids? Do you want kids? And I thought, we could do this show with Bobby as a man, as a woman, and it would be much more interesting. That idea came to me in a moment of my personal life. And it was my children in a way that really inspired the production. And I called up the director, Marianne, who directed it and said, how about we do this musical this way? And in truth, we had no idea that it would, you know, it felt very experimental. And we did a workshop of it. And Stephen Sondheim said he didn't think the idea worked initially. And when we pitched it to him, he thought, well, I'm not sure. I don't know. But do a workshop.

And at the workshop, which was a week in South London, it worked almost perfectly, actually, I think. The only thing that we hadn't changed at that point was that Amy was still Amy. And I felt a real connection with that character. And I thought if I was getting married, that's how I would be behaving the night before my wedding. And I thought that sounds like, to me, the voice of a gay man. And I felt really passionate about it. And I really fought hard that we change that character to a gay man. And at the 11th hour, actually, we managed to get that change through. And Jonathan Bailey came in, sang the song, convinced everybody it should be a gay man. And it was, I think, a hugely important part of that show's DNA that Bobby had a gay male friend telling her, make a wish, want something.

But it resonated really deeply with me. It was a very personal show because, you know, my children inspired it. And it felt very much a reflection on my own personal journey in life. So sometimes these shows are very, very personal, you know, and you have to love them. And you have to treat them like they're your own children because they take up all of your life, as much as your children. Literally doing musicals is like having extra children, essentially.

[26:21] William J Connolly: Oh, yes, indeed. They take over your life. And, you know, and I'm very lucky that my kids are now nearly 10. And, you know, they came to see Harold Fry the other night, and they loved it. And my son was listening to the vinyl recording of the concept album this morning, saying, I love this dad, it's really good.

[26:41] Chris Harper: That's the approval you need. Don't worry about the critics. I bought him a vinyl recording of Vivaldi's Four Seasons. And he said he didn't like that, but he preferred Passenger's concept album of Harold Fry. He's very, he's very loyal.

[26:54] William J Connolly: Get that on the front of the theatre. That's the one that you want. I remember so clearly the Olivier win for Jonathan Bailey, where he spoke about you and named you specifically, and thanked you personally, for being the person that quietly, but importantly, championed going from Amy to Jamie. Was it moments like that? And perhaps when the extraordinary pictures, if you go to Chris's Instagram and scroll down to see the Company period in your life, of you just going to see your show and the excitement of having a show on Broadway, and knowing that, yes, while Broadway is a scary place, and there's huge names attached, obviously, Patti, very famously, but also there's the moment of, I did this, I made this happen. And I did it, as you so beautifully said, for your children and for how you want to feel seen in your work.

[27:40] Chris Harper: Yeah, it was really gratifying. I mean, it was not easy because the road to Broadway is never easy. It's super complicated to do shows over there. And financially, the costs are astronomical. I mean, astronomical, it's so much more expensive to do a show on Broadway. So the problem with that is the risk is so much greater. But we managed to do the show on Broadway twice. Obviously, COVID was in the middle of that, which really caused a real, you know, headache. We had a two-year hiatus where we were waiting for Broadway to reopen. But it was really gratifying. And winning the Tony, we were very fortunate to have won the Olivier for Best Revival of a Musical, and then to win the Tony on Broadway was a real moment of satisfaction, a real moment of pride.

And, you know, I dedicated the award, each of the awards to my children. And, you know, they're very blasé. They go, oh, we have an Olivier and a Tony. I think they think everybody has that. But no, that was extremely satisfying. But the next day, you have to get on with the job and move on to the next production or keeping that production going as best you can. And, you know, you can't let awards define you and any of that. It has to be about, is the work as good as it can possibly be? And the awards are very nice, but it's, yes, they're very nice to have, but you can't allow them to matter too much.

[29:09] William J Connolly: Now, replacing two of the greatest actors in a film or on screen is incredibly challenging. Obviously, Jim and Penelope doing it. However, I think you may have struck gold with the two people that are leading your production. You alluded to Mark a second ago, but I don't think, and I'm pretty sure everybody will agree with me, I don't think they come better than your cast.

[29:27] Chris Harper: No, and we're very, very lucky. You know, it's, casting a show, you never really know until you've got them, but you have to fall in love with your actors to really get them to do it. And you have to fall in love with the idea of them before you even get them to do it because you have to go on a journey with them. But look, I have been a huge fan of Jenna Russell over the years. I think the first thing I saw her in was Sunday in the Park with George, and she blew me away. I mean, I think she's, and I've seen pretty much everything she's done since then. And Mark Addy, I was very aware of because when I worked at the National Theatre, he did a number of shows at the National, but this is his first musical theatre role.

He's never done a musical before. Now, we're fortunate in that the whole journey of the way that we've done the show is that he doesn't really find his voice until the end of the show. So everything about Harold Fry is a man who's every man. He's the kind of man you know, that you've lived next door to, that is your uncle, your family friend. So he's an everyman, but he can't really express his emotions. So the whole journey, although he's involved in a couple of songs throughout the show, he doesn't really sing until the end of the show when he actually finds his voice. And Mark is amazing. He's an actor that is completely in touch with his emotions, and I am totally in awe of what he's doing.

He doesn't leave the stage for barely a minute, and he's a truly spectacular actor and a phenomenal human being. And all of those things he shares with the audience, and I think he's amazing. And then you put him together with Jenna, and then you put Noah Mullins on top, and it's kind of dazzling. So I love actors, and I love watching them do their thing, and my God, the audiences are in for a super treat for the three of them. But it's an ensemble piece. So absolutely everybody in this show, we've got Peter Policarpu playing a really small part, but God, he's amazing. So look, you can tell I'm super excited about it. They are an amazing cast, but all of them are. So yeah, I can't wait to share it with audiences.

[31:43] William J Connolly: I know this is a podcast that people will be listening rather than be able to see you like I can, but your smile as you were talking about those people just got bigger and bigger and bigger. I can tell that this isn't just work for you. This is something that's incredibly important, and you were sort of explaining a second ago about the emotional journey that he goes on. And I do know that that is a big ask for producers and for actors to expect an audience to go on such an extraordinary journey with you. And not that we're allowed favorites, but my favorite play of all time is People, Places and Things, a show that you were involved in and that really did take audiences to an extreme. I was having the pleasure when I went to the Venice Film Festival at the end of last year of speaking to Willem Dafoe and these extraordinary actors about we need to give audiences, film audiences, theatre audiences, more respect for the fact that they can take heavy subjects and emotional storylines to the heart and understand them and run.

And I feel like you'd be a great example of actually we should entrust in our audiences a bit more because they want to go there and they will go there. And I imagine this project probably co-signs that.

[33:49] Chris Harper: Yeah, I mean, it's definitely a roller coaster of emotions, but I mean, it's interesting you mentioned People, Places, Things. I mean, that was the last show I produced for the National Theatre when I ran the National Theatre Productions arm of the National Theatre. And it was the theatre I love is one that's a visceral experience. And that's what that production was. I mean, Jeremy Heron did this incredible production. Denise Gough was amazing in the lead role, but underpinned by Duncan Miller's brilliant script. So, look, it is possible to get theatre wrong. And even when you bring together some of the very best people, it doesn't always work. But the theatre I'm drawn to is theatre that's really exciting.

It should never be boring. And the worst theatre is boring theatre and it could put you off going to theatre for life. So, you know, if there's a theme of anything I choose to do is something that's really exciting, that makes you want to get up and do something, which is the theme of Harold Fry. I mean, there's a line in it where Maureen says to Harold, you got up and you did something. And if that's not a miracle, I don't know what is.

[34:20] William J Connolly: I think the theatre gaze would have me actually beheaded if I didn't ask you at least one question about working with Patti LuPone, someone who is a very dear friend of yours. Actually gave you a little viral moment, Chris Harper Pays My Salary. I think you should have that on a t-shirt. But for you getting to work with someone who I know that you've spoken about, like you loved and respected before you got to know her, before you got to work with her. I mean, she is one of the greatest that's ever graced the stage. And thank God she's around in a period that we're alive to be able to see her and witness it. And I imagine you had a lot of gaze saying thank you, Chris Harper for bringing her to that production of Company. But what was it like to get to spend some genuine personal time away from the audiences with her?

[34:57] Chris Harper: Well, look, she's an amazing artist. I mean, a really, really incredible artist. And look, my history with Patti started when I was 13 years old. My parents came on a day trip to London. And I just wanted to walk around the West End and look through the doors of various theatres. And I ditched my parents and went running around Covent Garden in the West End looking through the windows. And I had been listening to the cast recording of Evita over and over and over again, but the Broadway recording. And she was in Les Mis. And I, you know, she was in Les Mis at the Palace Theatre. And I went to the Palace Theatre hoping to catch a glimpse of her. But it was a Sunday. And then I didn't realise that shows didn't perform on a Sunday.

So I pressed my face up against the glass of the Palace Theatre and couldn't see her. Cut to all these years later, when we talked about this production of Company, I thought she would be the most amazing and most amazing Joanne and said to Marianne, you know, look, we should consider her. I have no idea if she'll come and do it in London. And, you know, we were thrilled that she did. She was absolutely incredible and stayed with the show after London and did it on Broadway. And then I employed her again when we did The Roommate on Broadway last year with Mia Farrow. And she's an amazing, amazing actress and can kind of do anything. Not only is she a dazzling singer, she's also an amazing comedian and got to show off all of those talents in both The Roommate and Company.

And yeah, she's phenomenal. A force of nature. She's actually been a guest on this podcast. And I must confess, I was somewhat politely and respectfully utterly terrified the entire time. And she was the opposite. She was beyond kind. She spent over an hour with me. She was sat at a dining room table. And the whole time I just kept thinking, how the fuck is this happening? How are you in my kitchen? How are you in my life? I felt like that, too. You know, I, you know, when I had went to Thanksgiving at her house when we were doing Company, I was like, how this happened? She's a real human being with, you know, she's a dedicated artist. Like all of us, we have our flaws. And there are times where she can be utterly infuriating. But she's also, you know, an incredible, incredible artist. And, you know, that has to be celebrated because, you know, she's a one off. They don't make them like that anymore.

[37:21] William J Connolly: I'm just going to quickly show you a photograph of me outside your theatre.

[37:24] Chris Harper: Oh, there you go.

[37:28] William J Connolly: Oh, there you go. I know exactly where you're standing. Every time I go back, I go, she was here once. She was here once.

[37:31] Chris Harper: Yeah, look, she's extraordinary. And she can kind of do anything. You know, she's great on television. She's great in film. But really, her natural home is the stage. And that is where I think she owns it more than anybody else, the commitment to stage work. When I before I employed her, I called up another colleague who'd employed her on a musical before she did Company. And he said, you have to listen to her. If she tells you there needs to be a dresser in the stage right wing, she is right. She knows more about anybody in the theatre than all of us put together. So ignore her at your peril, which is very good advice.

[38:10] William J Connolly: Did you? Did you listen?

[38:11] Chris Harper: I did listen to her. You'd be mad not to.

[38:18] William J Connolly: I did make a joke at the beginning. And it's not a joke. It's very genuine that there is no show by you without having some extraordinary names. Is there any buddy still on the hit list that you say you haven't quite got away from yet?

[38:30] Chris Harper: Oh, God, there's dozens of things I want to do, literally dozens and dozens. And as I said before, you know, in a funny kind of way, something like Company had been rattling around in my head and I didn't, you need the stars to align. And there are other, multiple other plays and musicals that I think, I really like that show, I don't quite know how to do it, that maybe in a year's time, I'll have an idea of how we should do it. But it always comes down to the writing, and who the director is. And, you know, that's sort of the starting point. And, you know, so I've got multiple things in development, and some of which I have no idea when we're going to do it, if we'll ever do it. Some of them are crazy experiments, and some of them feel like really obvious things, why haven't they been done yet?

But so, but it's never usually an actor, you don't really, I don't tend not to start with the actor first. Although there are times where an actor will say, could you find me a play? You know, I had a fantastic time working with Mia Farrow last year, and I'm, you know, looking for a play that she might want to do. You know, so I had a brilliant time working with Toby Jones. And you think, okay, well, we'd love to work together again. And David Harewood, again, I love him. But usually I tend to start with the play first. So yeah, there's a whole bunch of things, but it's usually plays where I start from.

[39:51] Chris Harper: It's also very strange to ask that question, when you have all these absolutely extraordinary smash hit posters around you, which again, I appreciate that this is a podcast, and there are a million shows that you've done and extraordinary successes and audience responses to it. And I know there are lots of questions that people are thinking, oh, you didn't ask about this one, but to be able to see them in this space, and to be able to get a look into your genius mind, this must be a very special space to be able to see the successes and believe the crazy.

[40:19] Chris Harper: Well, sometimes you have to remind yourself. I mean, they all lead, one all leads to another. I mean, you know, War Horse was the first thing I produced, which led to my relationship with Marianne on Curious Incident. Johnny was so amazing in Company that we found we did Cock with him because we had such a good time working with him. So Harold Fry weirdly came out of Curious Incident with the connection with Rachel, Joyce's sister being in it. Out of my relationship with Tom Morris and War Horse came the Othello that we've just done. So all of these things on the surface don't look like they're connected, but they all are. The theatre is all about trusting people and working with people that you like and admire and respect and trust. And so they're all sort of, all of these shows, one leads to the next in some weird and quirky way.

[41:12] William J Connolly: And very finally, and this is always my favourite question to end the podcast with, you spoke a second ago about going in hunt of Patti LuPone, which is probably my favourite phrase I don't think anyone's ever said, but going in a hunt of mother, going in a hunt of an icon and pressing your face up against the glass and not realising obviously that Sunday perhaps wasn't the day it was performing, but having that flame and that desire and that interest in the crazy world of show business, in particular theatre. If you think back to the Chris that was then and the extraordinary life changing journey that theatre has brought you in so many different ways and the beautiful ways that it connects to your personal life and actually how that really does inform the work that you do.

What do you think the Chris with his nose up against the glass would think of the gentleman that sat here in a room that shows that sometimes believing your gut instinct, believing your soul and the first thing that comes to you and developing it, what do you think he would think of the man that's got a brand new musical in the West End and all these extraordinary successes that have come to you? What would he think of this moment?

[42:07] Chris Harper: It's very emotional to think about it in that context, actually. I mean, you know, my love of theatre began when I was five years old and my parents took me to see a pantomime at the Birmingham Hippodrome. And I am so grateful for firstly, my parents having done that because they didn't even like the theatre. I don't even know what they were doing, taking me to a pantomime. They thought it was people shouting at each other in the dark and they never really understood why it was appealing to me. And then I was very fortunate that I had so many people along the way encouraged me. And the best advice I was ever given was at school, my drama teacher. Those days you had a drama teacher, encouraged me to follow my dreams.

And she said, look, if you want to work in the theatre, go and make it happen. And she encouraged me to do that. So I'm really grateful for everybody that's helped me on my journey to this to this point, because, you know, I owe a debt to so many people. My teacher at school who encouraged me to go, the people that saw a little spark in me when I first started work as an intern at Birmingham Rep, all those years ago. And I have always felt this kind of love of it. And I still have it. So I still feel like in many ways, I'm that kid sort of looking through the window, trying to get in, trying to figure it out. So I'm very proud of all the things that I've achieved. But at the same time, you know, you've got to just keep looking forward to the next thing and the next thing and try and do the next thing as good as you possibly can.

Because when you start a project, you think, oh, gosh, this could be the end of my career. And it might still be yet you don't know. So you have to invest in it, all of the energy and enthusiasm and passion and heart and commitment and time and money. With the assumption that, you know, you can't assume that this is going to work, you have to give it 110%. You have to just move on to the next. And it's rare that really, I feel I have the time to stand back and reflect on all of those things that we've achieved, because we're too busy about, oh, my God, is the, have we got enough budget to make the party on the opening night as good as it needs to be, or some other problem, or someone's. So it's interesting to look at it from that perspective. But I think, ultimately, very proud of what I've managed to achieve. But at the same time, looking forward to the next one and the next one and the next one.

[44:30] William J Connolly: You should be very proud. It's extraordinary work. And I know that, obviously, this is a business, and this is about making things a success, but you have impacted so many people's lives with your work, particularly some of the shows and the posters and the stories that we've discussed. So thank you so much for that. And most importantly, good luck with Harold Fry. I'm very excited to say I'm actually going to come and see it rather than having already seen it. So I feel like I've doubled down. But just thank you so much. And genuine congratulations on everything. It's a real pleasure.

[45:02] Chris Harper: Thanks. You've been listening to Eleven, the official theatre podcast. Find out more about Eleven at elevenpodcast.com or via the Broadway Podcast Network.