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[0:01] Jennifer Apple: Hello, welcome to the Empowered Artist Collective Podcast. I'm your host, Jennifer Apple, a multi-hyphenate actor, educator, acting coach, writer, dog mom, and founder of this vibrant community that champions artists as they carve out their own unique paths in this wild industry. Whether you're just starting out, in the thick of it, or seeking a bit of artistic fuel to expand your toolbox, you're in the right place. In this space, we'll have honest conversations, share actionable strategies, tips, and resources, and delve into the messy yet beautiful journey of living a sustainable, creative life. We unmask the reality of life as an artist, from navigating career highs and lows to nurturing your full human well-being.

I chat with women and non-binary guests who share their personal stories, helpful learnings, and hearts to help you unlock your artistic potential, expand your knowledge, and show up fully and fearlessly in your artistry and daily life. Before we dive into this week's conversation, don't forget to hit that subscribe button so you never miss an episode. If today's chat resonates with you, please leave us a review. It helps us reach even more incredible artists just like you. And hey, feel free to spread the love! Share this podcast with a friend or post it on your socials, making sure to tag @EmpoweredArtistCollective and @JenniferApple_ so we can chat with you there. All right, grab a cup of something cozy, settle in, and let's get to it.

[1:25] Jennifer Apple: What steps can we take toward a more anti-ableist approach in theater, where disability inclusion is standard, not exceptional? This week, I talked to Jenna Bainbridge, actor, disability rights activist, and co-founder of Consultability, a consulting company focused on creating safe and inclusive environments for all disabled theater artists. Jenna shares her journey as an ambulatory wheelchair user, from her early years navigating ableist barriers to her current role on Broadway in Suffs, which, sidebar, she's incredible in and you only have until January 5th to check out. Jenna gives powerful insights on fostering environments where disability is embraced and access is seen as essential to creating truly inclusive experiences for everyone.

We discussed the importance of proactive communication about access needs, what small but impactful changes organizations and individuals can make, ways to shift cultural attitudes to foster conversations about disability, and practical tools for implementing simple solutions. Enjoy!

[2:22] Jennifer Apple: Jenna Bainbridge, hi.

[2:23] Jenna Bainbridge: Hi, thanks for having me.

[2:25] Jennifer Apple: So excited that you're here in this space. For anybody who does not know you, who are you today?

[2:29] Jenna Bainbridge: My name is Jenna Bainbridge. I am an actor. I am also a very passionate disability rights advocate and the co-founder of the consulting company Consultability, which works with theater companies to make them more accessible.

[2:42] Jennifer Apple: It's so cool. I remember when I stumbled upon your work and I was like, okay, wait, now I need to watch all of this and everything that you're doing, and so to have you in this space to talk about all of that and everything is just a privilege, and I am so grateful that you're willing to go on this journey here in this space with us. I would love to start at the beginning and just, like, your origin story as an artist, your origin story for, like, why you have continued to be so active in this particular space.

[3:11] Jenna Bainbridge: Yeah. Oh gosh, my origin story. I grew up, I grew up in Denver, Colorado, and I sustained a spinal cord injury when I was 16 months old, so I am partially paralyzed from the waist down, and I now identify as an ambulatory wheelchair user, meaning that, like, I use a wheelchair. I am also able to walk, but my wheelchair really provides freedom for me. It allows me to move faster through the world, easier through the world, move through the world without fear of tripping and falling, but also of, you know, I get fatigued very easily when I walk, so my wheelchair affords me a lot of freedom in the world. As a kid, though, I never used my wheelchair unless I, like, had to, unless I was told, like, no, no, no, this is a, this is a moment where, you know, mom's making me, because I kind of internalized a lot of ableism and felt like walking was the goal, and so I walked everywhere.

So, and when I walk, I have a very pronounced limp, and I love, love, loved sports, and I played a lot of sports as a kid. I was in softball, I was in volleyball, and I was in karate, I got my black belt when I was 12. I was a sport kid. And, like, I loved competing, I loved watching, but I really loved teamwork. I loved having a team. I loved having a common goal and having, like, something active to do for a couple hours each week, and as sports became more and more competitive as I got to be in, like, middle school, it became a really unsafe environment for me. So, as much as I loved doing it, suddenly coaches and parents and other students were less willing to have me on teams with them, even though I was good.

Like, even though I, I am highly competitive, I have very good hand-eye coordination, but I'm not a good runner. I'm never going to be a good runner. And people, as it became, like, a less and less safe environment, my mom started seeing this, and I love my mom so much because she never once was like, hey, maybe we should stop. What she did instead was said, hey, look at this door over here. Doesn't this seem fun? And if I had said, like, no, I want to keep playing volleyball, I know my mom would have been like, great, we're going to find a safe place for you to play volleyball. But there was, there was one incident in particular that I didn't learn about until, like, years after the fact, but when I was playing volleyball as a kid, apparently, I don't know if it was like a coach or a parent, but an adult on the other team apparently said, hit it to the crippled girl.

And that was the moment where my mom was like, this is not, this is not a safe place for my child to be. And so I had been taking dance classes and voice lessons and really loved performing in that outlet as well. And so my mom started looking around and had me audition for, I asked if I wanted to audition for a couple of community theater productions. And then eventually we found Family, which is a theater company in Denver that casts entirely actors with disabilities. So cool. And they do a summer show every year. Now they do a full season of programming, but at the time it was just a summer show, a summer musical. And my mom found that and she was like, hey, what do you think? Should we go, should we go see it?

Do you want to audition? And that became my home. And I just completely fell in love. And the things that I loved about sports, I was still getting in theater. It was super active. I had teamwork. I had, you know, all of these things that I loved, but without a lot of the negative connotations. And the thing about Family in particular too, was that my disability was something beautiful and something to be embraced and something to be loved and not something that made me a hindrance to my teammates. Which also then just changed my own perspective about disability and how I felt about myself. And it meant that I became very proud of who I was and very comfortable with my disability. And then from Family, I just started auditioning for more and more places and it eventually led me to being in New York and now I'm performing in stuff on Broadway.

And, you know, 10 year old me would have never thought I would go into theater at all, but you know, then 15 year old me would have never thought it would have ended at Broadway. So it's been a wonderful ride.

[8:46] Jennifer Apple: Thank you for sharing all of that. And also your mom is a rock star.

[8:51] Jenna Bainbridge: My mom is the best.

[8:54] Jennifer Apple: Because she, I mean, first of all, I'm not a parent other than to my dog, which I take very seriously, but it's not the same, obviously. There are many ways to parent and to do so in a way that empowers your child and never makes them feel other in their eyes to consistently uplift and show what's possible. Like even just thinking about, you know, now versus then, like when we were growing up, like how that must have even been harder that like even just, I think about that and how your mother being so proactive in not making you, it seems, and please tell me if I'm wrong, like making you ever feel like you were the problem. It was everyone else and the system and boo on them. Exactly. Let's like find, you are deserving of all of it. Of course, period. End of story. They suck. Let's find you a space where you can be surrounded by people who are accepting and hold values that are akin to ours. Like what a beautiful mothering.

[10:06] Jenna Bainbridge: Yes. And both my parents were always that way. Both my parents were always like, yes, Jenna has a disability and yes, that doesn't mean that I shouldn't do all of the things that I want to do and shouldn't have the childhood that every other kid has. And so when I was four, I was using a Walker at the time and I told my mom I wanted to be a ballerina. And like, I just know so many parents who their kid would, you know, their four-year-old using a Walker would say, I want to be a ballerina. And they'd be like, oh honey, that's not it. Yeah, exactly. Right. Or like, you know, try to divert them or encourage them not to do it or, you know, belittle them in some way. And my mom said, okay, great. And she and my dad went in search of a dance company that would accept a disabled dancer.

[11:06] Jenna Bainbridge: It's amazing. I was four years old and she called, I don't know how many dance companies and finally found one that was not only accepting, but excited. And it was Debbie Stark at Kaleidoscope Dance. And she was my dance teacher for many years. And you know, it's those things like it took so much extra work for them to make sure that I was in places that were accepting of me. But it also meant that I myself never knew a world that wasn't accepting of me. Like, yes, there was ableism and yes, I was going to be facing that. But it also meant that I was still able to get the experiences that I wanted in the training I wanted. And I don't think a lot of people are able to do that. Yeah. You know, parents aren't necessarily able to do that. And I don't necessarily think that society tells us that we should do that.

[11:39] Jennifer Apple: Yeah. Well, that is my next question. Like, I feel in many ways, and it sounds it's so relative, but in many ways, it sounds like it was a privilege, which feels so strange to say, because there are so many folks who I would imagine don't have parents or resources or somebody who's advocating on their behalf in such a profound way. How have you found as you've navigated more in your adult life, and certainly with Consultability? How have you been able to find ways to like bridge that for folks? Have you not? Have you seen I just mean that in more like, maybe even like a visual way of like, when you're seeing some space that you're like, oh, yeah.

[12:06] Jenna Bainbridge: Yeah, I think that access is such an interesting conversation, because there's, there's a difference between making something accessible, and making something inclusive, or equitable.

[12:18] Jennifer Apple: Talk more about that.

[12:19] Jenna Bainbridge: So when I go into a theater, and we're talking about access, I like to point out, you know, here's how you can make something accessible, right? Here's how you can make sure that people with disabilities are able to access your art. Okay. However, if that access means that they are, I'm going to use an example, we performed at the Tony Awards this year, and the Lincoln Center wasn't fully wheelchair accessible to get from where they were going to drop off the cast members to the stage access, like their regular path was not accessible. So the accessible path involved me being dropped off at a different location, and taking a fully, you know, no stepless access to backstage, there wasn't a way to do it. But it meant I was separated from the cast. Right. So that's accessible, but that's not equitable.

[13:41] Jennifer Apple: Right, right.

[13:42] Jenna Bainbridge: Because part of part of the deal is you want to be able to have the same experience as the other people around you. So an accessible seat, might, if you're going to a theater might be, you know, oh, yes, the seat doesn't have any steps, you can roll right up to it. But it's partial view, because it's way over on the side. Right. So it's accessible, but it's not equitable. So one of the things that we do when we come in as Consultability is we show them like, here's here's the minimum for making something accessible. And that's often as far as people want to go. It's just like, I made it accessible. Great. I checked my box.

[14:22] Jenna Bainbridge: Is that because it's normal for people to just be like, oh, if I do something that's accessible, then I've done something great? Like, why do people, why are people only interested in capping? I think it's a little bit of all of those things.

[14:35] Okay. The big one that we hear the most is cost.

[14:40] Right. It's, oh, we can't afford to make these seats accessible, right? Because people think of access as costing money because it's on individual companies to create access. It's not necessarily built into the buildings. It requires renovation. But when you make something accessible, 20% of the population has a disability of some kind. And we think of accessibility as wheelchair users because the international symbol for access is a person in a wheelchair. But disability goes far beyond wheelchair use. Disability, you know, as a category, only 7% or something like that of disabled people use a wheelchair. So there is a much larger conversation about what is accessible and what is access. And I think people think of access as like, no stairs.

[15:35] Right. And access is actually making sure that it's accessible to people who are neurodivergent, people who are blind, people who are deaf, people who have mobility impairments that maybe aren't wheelchair users. You know, there's so many subcategories. And I think that people get overwhelmed when they're thinking about like, all access. And so they check the box of, well, what does the ADA require? And ADA requirements are often just the very basic, like, ADA requirements are actually supposed to be the minimum. But it has become kind of a checklist that people think that they can just be like, great, I met the requirements. I'm done. Because it can be overwhelming to enter the world and think, well, what are all of the disabilities?

And how can I make this accessible to everybody? So I think that it's a little bit of everything that you said. But I think the big one is just that people don't necessarily realize that something is inequitable. If they see that something is accessible, they go, great, we did it. And people don't necessarily take the time then to think about, well, what if I were using that seat? Right? Would I be happy with that experience?

[16:43] And I think that that is the bigger conversation. And that's what we really try to tackle at ConsultAbility is it's not just that we're going to come into your theater and tell you, oh, hey, you need to add three more wheelchair accessible seats. And here's a captioning and audio description system for you to use. And make sure that all of your mirrors and sinks are at this height. OK, great, bye. What we're really doing is we try to go in and do anti-ableism trainings and conversations so that it becomes a holistic view of accessibility so that the individuals then have the tools that if we're not there at the next renovation, they now hopefully value access and anti-ableism as a concept. And it becomes built into the ethos of a theater.

[17:30] Yeah. And that goes far beyond, great, we have an accessible path and goes to, we are going to make sure that instead of just that one person takes the accessible path, that becomes a path for everybody.

[17:43] Yeah. Every person is having the same experience and experience is equitable. And that way, I could stay with my cast for the Tony Awards, right? Like, what a concept.

[17:54] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. When you go into these spaces with ConsultAbility specifically, are you pitching to an organization being like, hey, we've noticed that you may need our assistance? Or is it more like they, on their own, are like, we are realizing we actually, as we're either renovating or we're growing, we need assistance with this and we don't know how to navigate this kind of space? Let's hire these folks at ConsultAbility to come in and have a conversation. Or is it both?

[18:25] It's a little bit of both. And it kind of depends on our bandwidth of ConsultAbility. Like, if we are going out and seeking work versus if we're just passively kind of making sure that we're able to keep up with the work that we have. And so it has been both. And both are successful models. Sometimes we reach out to companies because we hear like, hi, we heard that you're doing a production that might feature characters with disabilities. Or we heard from somebody who worked there that this is something that needs to be addressed. But more often than not, most of the clients that we have actually come to us and say, we are noticing that this is a need that we have. And we want to make sure that we are making this an accessible, inclusive, and equitable experience for actors, designers, technicians, audience members, employees, the whole building.

[19:20] Because the other thing that a lot of people don't realize is that the Americans with Disabilities Act really only impacts public spaces. And so private backstage spaces, employee areas aren't actually protected by the ADA.

[19:34] That's wild.

[19:34] So when you're building a theater, there are places that are just fully inaccessible, even in brand new spaces.

[19:42] That's wild. So that is the conversations that we get into is, you know, we want to make sure this is a truly equitable experience. And we're realizing that we can't do that on our own. We need to have conversations and training and figure out where those pitfalls are.

[20:00] What I mean, obviously, like hire y'all to then have these trainings. But like, what are some of the major touch points when you go into these spaces and you're doing a training? What are some of the things that you have found more often than not are the consistent, like these things are absent or these are the conversations that are not really being had? Or this is such a simple way for you to begin even putting this into practice that is so often absent that it seems so obvious, but maybe is forgotten. Like, what are some of those things?

[20:31] Yeah. I mean, the first thing that we really try to address is just like saying that disability is not a bad word.

[20:39] Yeah. Disability, disabled. These are not bad words. People often get very anxious about, like, even asking questions about disability because it comes, I feel like it comes from a good place. I think it's that people don't want to offend anybody.

[20:53] For sure. But if we can't even say the word, then we're not going to have any kind of important or impactful conversation.

[20:59] With that, are there certain folks that you have found that actually prefer something else more inclusive or?

[21:05] Oh, absolutely.

[21:06] Yeah.

[21:07] Yeah. It's, you know, disability by like the word itself, just like any other community. We all have our own opinions about what words we like and what language we prefer. Disability and disabled are two words that are not going to offend anybody.

[21:22] Right. Those are the chosen words. Other people are going to have other identities.

[21:29] Absolutely. But this is like the fail-safe word that you can use. I like to say disability or accessible.

[21:37] Right. So like if you're talking about parking, right, where's the accessible parking or where's the disabled parking are both completely fine to say.

[21:46] What's not great to say is where's the handicap parking.

[21:50] Right. Even though like all the government signs say handicap, handicap is actually a rather offensive word. But because it comes at a deficit, we're saying that there's something wrong with you rather than what we know. And the origins of the word literally come from people holding their hats out, their caps out for money. Like it's the idea that like disabled people can only survive through handouts.

[22:15] Yeah. So like it just has a lot of really negative connotations and a lot of really negative history to it. So just try not to say handicap.

[22:26] Right. There are so many you can say accessible, disabled. These are all fine. Wheelchair accessible. Like, you know, there's so many other words you can use.

[22:34] So that's one of the first things we really address is like, let's just acknowledge that the elephant in the room and ask questions about disability and say disability. Because that's the first thing is that access is different for every single person.

[22:47] Every single person has different access needs, which becomes our next point, which is that access needs are human needs. There is nothing specific about disability to access needs because every person has access needs every day. Maybe the access needs are I didn't get enough sleep last night and now I have a headache and it's gonna be harder for me to do my job today because of that.

[23:08] Right. Maybe my access needs are like I am hungry right now.

[23:14] Right. Like maybe the access needs are I twisted my ankle yesterday.

[23:19] Right. Like everyone has access needs that change and disability is a part of that. So having those conversations about like what are your access needs? That is not a bad conversation.

[23:31] Yeah. Right. And it's not asking like, hi, what's your medical history? Can you please tell me your trauma? Like it's not bad. It's saying like you can say, you know, what do you need? What are your access needs? You know, do you have a disability that we need to be accommodating for? Like those are all normal conversations and people are so afraid to ask those that one people tend to assume.

[24:01] Right. So like one of the assumptions about me is because I use a wheelchair that I am not able to walk or stand, which is not the case for me, but is not also not the case for every single wheelchair user.

[24:09] Right. It has to be a conversation of like, what's going to be best for you? So if I say, hi, I need wheelchair accessible seating, if I'm calling a theater, there needs to be a conversation there of, would you like to stay in your wheelchair? Would you like to transfer to a different seat? Would you prefer to be, you know, facing head on to the theater as a view on the side?

[24:27] OK. Right. Like these are conversations that need to happen, but it also requires a certain level of awareness of disabilities.

[24:33] Yeah. Well, I think that you're bringing up something very real, which is, I think for many folks, there's a very specific lens of unless your disability is so visual, I don't even like, I'm not even going to imagine that it could be anything that say isn't or the understanding.

[24:54] Yeah. As you're like beautifully, of course, eloquently saying about like disability is so much larger than what we have an understanding for just given like the little signs of say a little wheelchair on a door.

[25:08] Like what exactly is our understanding of disability and how inclusive is it in terms of like the spectrum of emotional, mental, physical, and all of the intersections of all of those for sure.

[25:20] Yeah. Yeah. It's also like a reminder that every single person will become disabled at some point in their life, or they'll die before it happens. Disability is inevitable. It's part of the human experience. And there are aspects of disability that we as a culture have completely normalized. Like one of my favorite examples is wearing glasses.

[25:37] Glasses are an assistive device.

[25:44] Yeah. If you were not wearing glasses, you would not be able to interact with the world the way you currently do.

[25:50] Yeah. Right? Like glasses are normalized now. But before we had that, if you were going to a show, if you were acting in a show, you would have requirements, right? You would have assisted needs. You would have like all of these things are such a normal thing. And I think about that all the time when I'm entering spaces of some people might have assistive devices that they're able to interact with the world without assistance, like glasses. But what if they don't have their glasses that day? What if their glasses broke that day?

[26:20] Right. Right? What if, what if, what if we need to then meet people where they're at on that day?

[26:28] Yeah.

[26:29] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[26:31] Okay. So you're having these conversations. And then from there, is it more like, okay, this kind of paperwork needs to happen? Is it more like we need to bring in these kinds of folks to actually implement physical changes into your physical spaces? Like what, what are some of the ways that you end up finding the next step of assistance for these theaters, for example, ends up being?

[26:52] So it kind of depends on how their day goes. Generally, when we do an audit of a space, so what we like to do is do a training so that people are aware of where their own ableism might be, and also what things they can currently be combating to like view the world through a different lens and a more accessible lens. Then we go audit the spaces. And when we're doing that, we're always thinking about what are solutions. And generally, we try to provide those solutions as part of the audit of, well, you know, we give them paperwork afterwards that says like, we try to give an option of a short term solution and a long term solution, an inexpensive or free solution, and a more expensive like renovation solution.

[27:39] Amazing. So like one of my favorite examples was we went to a theater that wanted to make a backstage restroom accessible. They didn't have any accessible restrooms backstage. And we went in and looked at the space and we realized that the bathroom itself was actually a decent size. It wouldn't accommodate every single person. It wasn't ADA compliant. But we figured out if they changed the swing of the door, so it swung out of the room instead of into the room, it could accommodate a large percentage of people.

[28:12] Okay. So if they just change the swing of the door and added some grab bars, which you can get at Home Depot for cheap, and it's a theater, so of course, you've got like countless people who are totally equipped to install those. You know, this is a solution for changing the swing of the door and adding some grab bars is a solution for a couple hundred dollars. That means that that restroom becomes more accessible to a larger percentage of people. And then the long-term solution is when you renovate, make this ADA compliant. In the meantime, we know you can't afford to renovate.

[29:15] Jenna Bainbridge: So, for example, and this is like an eye treatment, if I am hired by a theater and they know I am a wheelchair user, and this has happened to me many, many times, I'll get a phone call that says, "Hi, like, we're so excited for you to come. Or we really want to offer you a contract. But before we do, we need you to know we do not have a wheelchair accessible restroom." And then I can decide for myself if that's a safe environment for me to be in. Sometimes the answer is going to be no. But oftentimes, the answer is, "Well, if we did XYZ thing to accommodate, then I could use that restroom." So maybe the solution is, can we put some curtains up around the outside and have somebody there to make sure nobody comes in so I can use the restroom?

Or is the solution for me personally, all right, I'm able to stand and walk. So I will just stand and walk. I won't have my wheelchair with me in the restroom. There are other solutions, but they involve conversations, and people have to feel comfortable enough having those conversations.

[30:25] Jennifer Apple: I also hear though, that obviously, through the work that you do, and also starting as a young kid who had somebody who was advocating for you, that you are quite adept at advocating for yourself.

[30:34] Jenna Bainbridge: Yeah, which is amazing, but not the case for everybody.

[30:39] Jennifer Apple: Exactly. And so I guess I wonder for folks who are listening, who really are resonating with what you're saying, and they do not feel as empowered within themselves, they don't have the tools accessible yet for themselves, of how to advocate for themselves when these conversations happen. Also, just because as artists, we're told to stay small, just generally, like we're told to stay small and not make anything difficult. And like, you take what you can get and the scarcity of it all. So just even at baseline for most of us starting out is like, we don't even feel like we can take up that space. And then throw on somebody who has a disability that they need these things in order to make this process work.

How have you found some of these beautifully creative ideas? Is it through your own experience of working at ConsultAbility? Is it just like your own life stuff? Or where can people begin to think creatively about these solutions for themselves from the theater perspective, and also more specifically for artists advocating on behalf of themselves?

[31:39] Jenna Bainbridge: Yeah, I think that for me, so many of these things came from my own trial and error of knowing what works for me. And I always found that very helpful for me. It doesn't work for everybody to be able to, you know, if I'm learning choreography, saying to a choreographer, "Oh yeah, that move doesn't work for me. It's not gonna be sustainable for me." It's hard to say. It's hard to say like, "No, I can't do that." Because you're right, like as actors, we want to be like, "Yes, and thank you. I'll take this crumb. I'm really grateful." But sometimes that's not what's gonna benefit us in the long run. So what I have found for myself is being able to say, "I can't do that. Could I do this instead?"

Giving solutions has been very helpful for me. But once again, that takes knowing myself and takes being able to advocate for myself. The other thing that I found very helpful is finding other allies in the room. Because sometimes it's easier to advocate on behalf of somebody else. Like we've all had that where it's like, "Well, I'm not gonna ask for this change. But I see my friend struggling." And if that person has a relationship with the choreographer and says like, "Hey, you know, some people are having trouble with this dance move." Sometimes that's the conversation. And oftentimes people are very open to that conversation. So having other allies and advocates is sometimes one of the best things you can do.

I've countless times gone to friends and been like, "I don't have the energy to ask for this thing. So could you say something on my behalf?" And that can be very helpful. And sometimes they say like, "I don't have the bandwidth either." And that's okay. But having other people that you can go to and having other relationships, like trust your relationships, trust the people that you have in your life. And then I also have a manager who is really, really wonderful at advocating for me. And finally, like you can also reach out to companies like ConsultAbility. There are other companies like ours. And we have done that for productions where they have been hiring people with disabilities. And we have been with the production from start to finish as consultants to be there as the advocate. Because in an ideal world, we should never have to be our own advocates. That should be somebody else's job so that we can just show up and do the work.

[34:06] Jenna Bainbridge: So we have done that for productions in the past where we just are on for the whole run, we come into rehearsals regularly, we are available to anybody in the company, not just disabled company members, to make sure that their access needs are being met. And it is something that is available to everybody. You are able to reach out to third parties who can contact the company and say, "This is a problem." That can also feel hard and scary. And I acknowledge that it's hard to advocate for ourselves. But it's much easier when we have relationships that we trust.

[34:45] Jennifer Apple: Yeah. I'm thinking also to two different episodes that we've had in our past two seasons. One is with Ali B. Ghori, who is visually impaired as an actor and activist. And in our conversation, you know, she mentioned some, you know, I guess you would call it like the preliminary paperwork that even just like simply asking some questions, you know, about accessibility and needs of artists, you know, that might be really helpful. Also, just the episode that we had with Kira Troilo, which talked just generally about EDI, and how she comes in to talk more holistically about that with, you know, companies and theatres and individuals and some of the tools that are very, like, minimal, but accessible from the start.

What are some of the things that you have found might be wonderful ways to just get the temperature and or set the tone or space from the first day of rehearsal, or even prior to that, when you first get the job that artists, individuals, theatres can implement from the get that doesn't require any sort of finances, and is really maybe just some paperwork or conversations that initially will already set the stage?

[35:54] Jenna Bainbridge: Yeah, I always, I like to just get a sense of like, what is the state of accessibility at the company. And so sometimes I will send an email beforehand, just like, "Hi, I'm super excited to start rehearsal. I just wanted to know, what's the setup?" Like, can you just tell me, you know, where are the dressing rooms? What are the bathrooms? What are the showers? And asking those basic questions, like what my access needs are. And sometimes I'll add specifics of like, "Are there grab bars? Is there, you know, is there completely stepless access from here to here?" And the answer can be no, right? The answer can, like, and that's actually a good thing is what it does is it lets the theatre think ahead of time.

So it's transparency. And it's knowing ahead of time so that we have runway to make accommodations. The worst thing is to be surprised by a lack of access is to show up and be like, "Oh my gosh, there's three stairs into this building and nobody told me." If I know that ahead of time, then I can make those accommodations for myself. We can work out a plan that, you know, I enter through a different door, or that someone's there to meet me or that we've had the time to follow around.

[37:10] Jenna Bainbridge: But what it is, is sometimes the theatres do it themselves. Right? If you go to them and you say, "Hi, what's the situation?" They might frequently go, "Oh, we hadn't thought about this." Okay, great. We're finding a solution now so that it's not me showing up and making the solution. It's the theatre realizing it for themselves. Because, you know, people don't always think about access. It's not part of our awareness. So saying, "Hi, can I just want to check in about access? Is it going to be wheelchair accessible?" That's the only question. Then it's on them to tell me if that's going to be the case. And I have found that to be, you know, it works most of the time. Sometimes there still are going to be problems, but at least I'm more aware of what I'll be facing. And the theatres are more aware that it's going to be a need.

[38:00] Jenna Bainbridge: What I would love for theatres to do is to take a day and walk through their spaces. And just write down all of the potential accessibility problems. This is something that ConsultAbility has been working with Actors' Equity, with their auditing teams who go and do the safety audits. And one of the things we've been training them on is exactly this is asking for a disclosure of access. And all that is, is just letting people know, you know, here's how wide the doorways are, here's what the lighting is, you know, there is fluorescent lighting in the bathrooms, you know, there is a very loud beep from the fire alarm that goes off once every two weeks, right? Like these things that might be inaccessible for people, and just disclosing them.

Because then you have the runway to ask for accommodations, or for the theatre themselves to say, "Oh, actually, we should just change out the light bulbs and not have fluorescent lighting in any of these rooms." But oftentimes, we don't even know that there was a problem because the mentality in theatre is the show must go on, correct, is, "I just won't complain." And oftentimes, what our solution is, that was inaccessible for me, I just won't audition there anymore. And that leads to just perpetuating the cycle where they say, "Oh, well, let's work for everybody else."

[39:29] Jennifer Apple: I love this idea of, I mean, obviously, again, it seems so obvious, but clearly most people and individuals in places and organizations don't necessarily do this of just like, let's walk through our space and see what was just, just, it's kind of like when you're in yoga, and you're just lying in Shavasana, and you're not doing anything, but you're just like noticing, or in a body scan, where you're just noticing the tension in your body, and you're not, the intention is not to change it. It's just to be like, "Oh, yeah, I'm holding so much tension in my shoulders, or my knees are feeling weird today." It's a yes, thank you. I see I'm here with you body, let me send some breath. It's just, I feel like it seems so obvious to be like, let me go through my space and just notate all of the things so that we have a document of what is and frankly speaking, I would only imagine if and when say a theater wants to renovate having that as a document being like, this is what was put down five years ago.

And clearly, since then, it's even worse. Like, it only helps with getting finances and be like, assistance when you actually put in the changes. But just even the awareness part of it. I feel so many it requires effort to be like somebody, please walk around with a clipboard and see what is happening across all the spaces. But I wish in my mind as I'm listening, that that should be something that is also sent along when you get your contract from a theater of just like the piece of paper that just outlines the space.

[41:52] Jenna Bainbridge: Exactly. And there's no judgment to it. It's like, these are the, this is how it's laid out, the reality. And then it becomes normalized of we're all in transparency around what we're navigating. And then me on my own can advocate. And you know, it's, I think it goes back to what you were talking about earlier, which is all just how disability is something that is a spectrum. And that sometimes it's visible and sometimes it's not. And for those folks who do not have a visible disability, to be able to know for themselves, and they're not presenting with it, they're not sharing it necessarily. And they don't have to disclose anything that way they can just decide for themselves if this is going to work for them.

[43:03] Jenna Bainbridge: Exactly. And it gives more agency to everyone. I mean, I'm here for transparency, clearly, which is why I continue bringing on folks like yourself to just try to demystify a lot of the things that nobody wants to talk about and are so important for us to be talking about or even just simply thinking about in the recesses of our beautiful minds. But just that one piece of paper that may take a person in the office two days to walk through and type up is huge and will save you time and effort later when you might not have the time.

[43:08] Jenna Bainbridge: My access needs are kind of on display because I use a wheelchair. My disability is very, very visible. But what that has meant is that when I have an accommodation that was provided for me without my asking, other people sometimes go, oh, I need that too. And it is so common. Access benefits everybody. My favorite, it's called the curb cut effect. Curb cuts, which are the little ramps at curbs at intersections, curb cuts were originally kind of, they were made by like jackhammers in the dead of night. They were not made by cities. They were made by individuals like vigilantes going through in the middle of the night and being like, this step is inaccessible and it doesn't need to be here. And this was in Berkeley, California, in, I think it was like the 70s, the 60s. And there's a great podcast episode on 99% invisibility, all about curb cuts.

But it was these activists going through and saying like, we don't need this. And we have a solution. And the city kept going and fixing all of the curbs until they started getting these letters from other people saying, oh my gosh, this is so great. I'm so glad that this little cut in the curb exists now. And it was parents pushing strollers. It was delivery drivers who had rolling dollies and carts. It was people who were like joggers that were jogging up and down a step as much harder than just going down the incline. So it was non-disabled people who were like, oh my gosh, this is so great. It's benefiting so many of us. And it's really benefiting people with disabilities who don't have other options.

Access benefited everybody, but we didn't know what to ask for until we saw it. So sometimes disabled people are the ones saying, this is what I need. And then other people go, oh yeah, that makes my life easier too. Yes, let's continue doing this.

[45:16] Jennifer Apple: Yeah. That's partially like what I've been thinking the whole time, which is sometimes we don't even really know what we need until we are in it. And then we don't even then even still know or can articulate what it is that we need until it's probably too late. And even retrospectively, you're like, I know I needed something and I still don't even know what that is. Yeah, I couldn't even ask for it.

[45:39] Jenna Bainbridge: Exactly. And so just even naming the fact that sometimes not knowing is okay. But then I guess finding other people or allies or folks who maybe are more well-versed and being like, hey, in this moment, I know that this isn't feeling right for some reason, and I don't know what that is to be able to. Sometimes voicing it is enough because then somebody else might be able to have that brainstorm or the brainpower to be able to say, to put it to words or to ask for what the accommodation is. Voicing it is the first step.

[46:09] Jennifer Apple: Yeah. For folks who are not disabled, what are some ways in our regular lives that we can be more inclusive, accessible, anti-ableist, all of that?

[46:17] Jenna Bainbridge: Yes, great question. First off, I feel like just diversifying our media is a great way to become more anti-ableist. You know, follow influencers who have disabilities and talk about disability. You know, watching TV shows, movies, everything that has disabled performers, disabled writers, disabled characters. You know, making disability part of our life is a huge way to become more aware of what disability is in reality. So that's always just diversify your feed, make sure that disability is a part of it. I also highly recommend if you want to do like your own intro to anti-ableism, Demystifying Disability is a fantastic book by Emily Liddell. That's a really good like intro to the world. And then from there, she also has this wonderful bibliography in the back of her book of like recommended reading and watching and listening.

And it's a really great way to, and Emily is also a friend of mine. And so I also feel very good about recommending her and she's amazing. But I had read her book before I met her. It was like a very exciting thing where I was like, oh my gosh, you wrote the book that I've been recommending for like five years. So she's, she's wonderful. And that book is incredible. Great intro to anti-ableism. And then just in general, like when you are with your disabled friends, when you are, you know, working on a show with people with disabilities, when, when you are interacting with people with disabilities, like just don't be afraid to have an uncomfortable conversation. Sometimes it's the only way we learn.

It's the only way we grow. You know, more often than not, I feel like people are so scared to talk to me or to ask me questions. And, you know, I am much more comfortable talking about my disability than, than some people might be, but like, just don't be afraid to treat us like humans and then maybe have an uncomfortable conversation sometimes. And when you can advocate for the person, right. So like one of the things that just is always so empowering to me is if I go out with my friends, I know that I am not going to have to research, is this restaurant accessible? Cause I know my friends have already done that.

[48:44] Jennifer Apple: Yeah. Right. Like those little things go a long way. Yeah. So, you know, be there for your friends, especially if you know someone's access needs, just be on the lookout ahead of time. And even if you just send them a text that's like, Hey, I already checked the restaurant's accessible. Awesome. Right. Like it goes so far cause that's work now that I don't have to do. Yeah. So, you know, just kind of be aware of those things, be willing to have those conversations and, and try to try to become more comfortable with, with disability and the fact that like, we all know someone who has a disability and we are all very likely to acquire one at some point in our lives. And just it's the human experience. It's normal and it's a beautiful part of life.

[49:27] Jenna Bainbridge: Yeah. We didn't get to spend too much time on this cause we had such an in-depth conversation prior to this, but I'm curious how your experience with Suffs has been.

[49:37] Jenna Bainbridge: Oh, stop. I love Suffs so much. I, I first auditioned for Suffs over three years ago. I have been doing, I I've been doing workshops with Suffs since then 2021. And so to finally be doing it on Broadway, it's just like, I'm so, so proud of the entire team and of Shana Taub, our incredible writer and star. It's been amazing and also wonderfully accessible because there are so many advocates in the room. And it is also a great example of what we were saying before, of like, I didn't know anybody coming into Suffs. I didn't, I had never worked with anybody in the room before. And day one of my, of my first workshop, we had a very long conversation of what my accommodations might be and what my access needs were for the show.

We would have daily check-ins of our access needs for the entire company. In that first workshop where everyone would just say like, you know, my access needs are met or I have access needs and they are blank. And what was great about that was that it normalized that everybody in the room had access needs. Frequently, I was like, my access needs are met. And, you know, everyone's like kind of expecting for like, she's going to have access needs. And I was always like, my needs are met. So it, it's a great, it was a great way to like enter into that space. And now it's, now it's been three years and for Broadway, I knew that I was in a safe place moving into it. I knew that our producers really cared about access.

I knew that our, my director was really passionate about access, the choreographer, Shana, of course, like I knew that it wasn't going to be all on me. And it was three years of fostering those relationships. But, you know, our, our team acknowledged right off the bat that the theater we are in is a hundred years old, is very, very out of date when it comes to like any kind of accessibility. And they made it fully accessible for me. The backstage of the Music Box Theater, they built a ramp up to the stage door. Once you are in the theater, there's a ramp up to the stage level. They built a fully accessible dressing room and bathroom at stage level. You know, and these are, these are wonderful, tangible things that now we also, because we can have people come backstage.

And what it has meant is that we have had numerous people with disabilities who have been able to come be on stage. So, you know, Ali Stroker came a couple of weeks ago and it was just so exciting to be like, Hey Ali, you want to come backstage? Like, you know, it's so rare that those places are accessible. And it's, it's a really beautiful thing that I did not have to do that advocating. It was three years of friendship and relationships and people, you know, people doing that work on their own to become, you know, very anti-ableist, but the show is completely accessible for me. One of the other things I love about it is that I play characters who use a wheelchair and I play characters who walk.

And Lee Silverman, our director, was always very open to conversations about what I wanted, what I wanted those characters to be. And we built a show that also I can use my wheelchair for the entire show if I need to. So if I'm having a day where I'm like, you know what, walking is not it today. Yeah. All of my tracks are fully wheelchair accessible. Amazing. But also it was important to me to show ambulatory wheelchair use to show like, I use my wheelchair and I walk. And she was so open to that too. I think I've had a lot of directors who have been like, that might confuse the audience. We're not ready to open that cup of, you know, that can of worms. And she was very much like, no, this is great.

This is your, this is your reality. And we're going to do it. And it makes it feel like there's an extra person on stage because a lot of people don't realize that it's me who is using the wheelchair and then walking in the very next scene. And they think there's an extra person on stage, which is never a bad thing in an ensemble. So it was, the whole experience has been just so wonderful. And more than anything, what has been powerful to me is getting to meet so many audience members who are seeing themselves represented on stage for the first time. The amount of people I've met who, it's their first time seeing a wheelchair user on stage. It's their first time seeing an ambulatory wheelchair user, seeing somebody who walks with a limp.

These are not things that we see very often in our media. And it's been really wonderful getting to meet people and feeling that I'm representing so many people in such an incredible show too. The show is absolutely stunning and reminds us of our own power and our own ability to advocate and to fight and to affect change in the world. And so for me, being able to be a disabled person in a story about affecting change is so impactful and empowering.

[54:59] Jennifer Apple: I'm so happy for you. I'm so grateful that you took the time in this conversation. I'm so excited about all that you are representing for so many folks for the first time in many respects, which is so unfortunate, but also thankfully it's happening at least now. I'm really grateful that you were willing to go on this journey and be so vocal and vulnerable and honest and transparent and helpful. And I know that this conversation is going to help so many people. So thank you for going on this journey.

[55:37] Jenna Bainbridge: Thank you. It's been such a joy. Anytime I can talk about access, I get very excited.

[55:45] Jennifer Apple: Good. Good. Same here. For anybody who wants to reach out to ask more questions, to work with you, to hire ConsultAbility, where within your boundaries are the best ways for people to find you?

[55:57] Jenna Bainbridge: Yeah. If you want to follow along with me, I am on Instagram at Bainbridge Jenna. And if you are interested in ConsultAbility, that Instagram is at ConsultAbility, or you can reach out to us at consultability.org. Or our email is info at consultability.org.

[56:20] Jennifer Apple: Amazing. Thank you so, so, so, so much.

[56:26] Jenna Bainbridge: Thank you. I really appreciate it.

[56:31] Jennifer Apple: That's it for today's episode. I hope you walk away with some fresh insights, feel inspired and a little more empowered to take the next step on your artistic journey. Remember, whether it's a small shift or a big breakthrough, every step forward counts. You've got this and we're here cheering you on every step of the way. If you found today's episode helpful, don't forget to hit subscribe. So you'll never miss out on the discussions we have each week. And if something today really resonated with you, please leave us a review. It truly is one of the best ways to help other artists find our podcast and join in on the conversations. Plus, we feel the love too when you do. And don't keep all this goodness to yourself.

Share this episode with your people or post about it on social media. Be sure to tag @EmpoweredArtistsCollective and @JenniferApple_ so we can see what's landing for you and keep the conversation going. As always, thank you for being here. Thank you for listening. And thank you for being a part of this incredible community. Keep creating, keep thriving, stay empowered. I'm Jennifer Apple. Until next time.