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[0:00] Gordon Cox: Welcome to Stagecraft, Variety's theatre podcast, your backstage pass to revealing conversations with stars, creators, and industry leaders, on Broadway, off Broadway, and beyond. I'm Gordon Cox. On this episode of Stagecraft, I'm talking to the playwright Sanaz Toossi and the actor Marjan Neshat. Over the last few years, the writer Sanaz Toossi has had a meteoric rise, beginning in 2022 when her breakout comedy English bowed off-Broadway, and then a second play, Wish You Were Here, landed off-Broadway just a few months later. And then, in 2023, English won the Pulitzer Prize for Drama. Now, the play is back in New York, and this time, on Broadway. The central character in English is played by Marjan Neshat, a close friend and collaborator of Toossi's, who starred in those initial off-Broadway productions of both English and Wish You Were Here.

And now, she's on Broadway, reprising her role in English as the teacher whose fluent language skills mask a deep ambivalence. Now, Toossi and Neshat are in the virtual studio with me to tell us about their journey bringing English to Broadway together. Hi, Sanaz and Marjan. Thanks for joining me.

[1:13] Sanaz Toossi: Hi.

[1:14] Marjan Neshat: Hi. Thanks for having us.

[1:16] Gordon Cox: So, the two of you are not only close collaborators, but you're also very close friends. And Marjan, the character you play in English, is named Marjan. But it sounds like the two of you connected really just in the last few years. Can you tell us a little bit about how that happened?

[1:33] Sanaz Toossi: Sure. I can start. I saw her in a reading of a play that I did not like, but I found she... I just was immediately taken with her, and I knew we were... I could tell we were after the same thing. And I'd written both these plays, and I knew it had to be her, but she didn't know me. She didn't know me or my work. So, my goal in life became like, A, I have to get her these plays, and B, she needs to like me. So, that's how that started.

[2:12] Gordon Cox: When you say... Sanaz, when you say you knew you were after the same things, can you expand on that? What does that mean to you?

[2:20] Sanaz Toossi: It's funny. This reading that I saw her in was not a play that I thought was good, or a play that I liked, and yet she was there. I could see her... I mean, not only her craft, but she has this magic about her, which is, of course, connected to her craft. There was something in her that I could just tell. I was like, oh my god, she's full of yearning. And Marjan is like romantic, and really also rigorous at the same time. And immediately, I immediately just knew that. So, I sort of weirdly just like fell in love with her before we'd met. But all those things have always been apparent about her. I think anyone who sees her work can kind of also assess that about her.

[3:12] Gordon Cox: And is it a coincidence that her character is named Marjan?

[3:16] Sanaz Toossi: I honestly don't remember. I may have subconsciously written... just thought like, well, I know a Marjan. If I can name the character Marjan, I don't know. But in my head, it was like, it always was going to be her.

[3:35] Marjan Neshat: Yeah. When was this reading?

[3:38] Sanaz Toossi: Marjan, I think that was, I don't know, like maybe 2016.

[3:44] Marjan Neshat: Okay.

[3:45] Sanaz Toossi: The thing is, I didn't actually meet her at that reading. And at one point, I got an email from someone being like, hey, I'm directing this thesis, someone's thesis play, and the character has your namesake, and you should come do it. And I was working at the time. And I was like, you know, I read the play, and I was intrigued by who would have written this play, but I couldn't do it. And we didn't meet then. And then I think there was like a series at the Atlantic, but they were doing these different reading series. And I saw her speak, keep saying this. It's like I, in my life, I think I was so yearning to find both a part, like someone who, I joke about it, like artistic rescue. I wanted parts that I was proud of, and not just parts that allowed me to get, keep my life going.

But I didn't know that it would come in the form of someone who in so many ways, like shared my insights. Like I always, you know, like we're conditioned to think like some man will come and be like, put you in my way. And then the fact that it was this strong, rigorous, like beautiful, ultra feminine, I just was like floored when I read her plays. And that she, you know, that we just sort of, I don't know, I think it was some kind of cosmic thing in my life, meeting her.

[5:14] Gordon Cox: And what is it when you read English in particular, what do you recall connecting with in the character and in the story that's being told?

[5:23] Marjan Neshat: Well, the thing that I, when I first read English, all I had was questions, like question after question after question. And Sanaz very graciously tolerated all my questions. And her only response was, good question. And she didn't have any answers. And it was a very valuable lesson because I found this character through sort of the mystery of this unexplainable yearning and connection she has to the possibility of herself not knowing why.

[5:57] Gordon Cox: Yeah. She can be sort of a slippery character, right? In terms of just for an audience to sort of, because she lives, as you say, in that ambivalence.

[6:07] Marjan Neshat: Yeah. And I think we live in a time where everything is so binary. And as soon as I say, like, I liked myself better in English, I feel this gasp of like, we're not allowed to feel that way these days. We have to, you know, and I think, but it's not, the reason that that is true is not necessarily one thing or another. And I think that you have to have sort of patience and a degree of emotional empathy to go and try and judge it later if you really can't connect, you know? And I appreciate that, even though I sometimes I'm like, do they hate me?

[6:41] Gordon Cox: Let's talk a little bit about the origins of this play. So, Sanaz, it sounds like you, I know you started this play, it sounds like a little bit after you first met Marjan and it was sort of inspired by the early days of the Trump presidency. Can you tell us a little bit about that beginning?

[6:57] Sanaz Toossi: Yes, I wrote this play in response to the Trump administration's travel ban that was enacted, I think, like one of the first executive orders, if I remember that correctly. And I wrote it because I was furious and I was devastated and the way, and also it was inspired by a lifetime of seeing people treat my parents who speak English as a second language as lesser than because they had accents or because they would make, you know, they would switch out prepositions. And the way that they were perceived as less human and less, just as people that don't hold full personalities was like baffling, baffling to me. So I wrote it in response to that. It was my thesis and I wanted to write about it in my voice and I am like really averse to trauma plays and it's important to me that it's really important to me to make people laugh because of how it opens people up to whatever you want to say to them. So, yeah.

[8:32] Gordon Cox: One of the things that people come out talking about in this play is the sort of formal choice you make to have, because the characters are speaking two different languages throughout the play. It's Farsi and English and when they're speaking Farsi, they speak in English fluently and with the unaccented and when they're speaking English, English, their accent emerges and it's far less fluent and it is a sort of formal choice that people grasp really instantly in the audience. And I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about how that idea came to you.

[9:00] Sanaz Toossi: It had always been really instinctual to me. Like I did not really, I didn't really think of it as a device. I mean, obviously I knew that's what we were doing, but to me, like I, growing up bilingual, when my parents would speak Farsi, I could tell, I was like, oh, there's E's and this is who they are. This is who they are in their mother tongue. And then when I would speak Farsi, which is technically the language I learned first, but not the language I am most comfortable in, I could tell like something was lost. And for me, what was lost in the second language is like, I can't make people laugh in Farsi and making people laugh in English is like, oh, it's the only thing I have. It's like the thing that I value about myself.

So I knew, and I knew that to speak to an American audience, the whole play would have to be in English. So it just, it was really natural. It never even occurred to me that it should be multilingual. I just, I don't know. I just, and I don't think, and I'm not the first to, you know, like translation says it so beautifully. And then also we're very comfortable with like, always reference, you know, when you watch, if you're watching a film adaptation of Anna Karenina and they're speaking in British accents, well, you know that they're actually speaking Russian. So these, these devices and these ways of understanding language already exist. Just wanted to add to that, you know, like there's a few times in the audience, people have come up, even some of them have been Iranian and said, how have you, did you ever consider, or did she ever consider having translations or super translations and having them really speak in Farsi?

And I was like, actually, I think something that's quite beautiful and profound is that you get a third layer, that you get to hear Farsi on stage for just 30 seconds. And if it wasn't English, if it wasn't that, it wouldn't have that. And I actually think it adds a lot to the play. And I think it is part of the artistry of it that it, it changes like that. And so it, for that reason, it feels necessary to have it, have this sort of device.

[11:27] Marjan Neshat: Oh my God. When people come up to me and complain about that last 30 seconds of the play being in Farsi, I cannot tell you, like the rage that courses through my brain.

[11:41] Gordon Cox: Well, tell me why, what do you, and how do you respond to them?

[11:44] Marjan Neshat: Well, it is funny. I do want to say, oftentimes the people who, so just to say at the last 30 seconds of the play are in Farsi, in real Farsi, this is not like a spoiler, but, and oftentimes Iranians or non-Iranians come up to me and say, I wish that there had been subtitles to those last 30 seconds. If for the non-Iranians, they want to, they want to understand what is being said in that conversation. And the reason it frustrates me to no end is our runtime is like, what an hour 40 for an hour and 39 minutes, I have given you an English speaker, full access to these people, full access. And what these characters in the play are commiserating about is like, in learning a new language, like they're going to be on the outside.

Like they're not going to, in every way, they're going to be on the outside, linguistically, culturally. And if for 30 seconds, you cannot stand the discomfort of being on the outside of language. Like, I fear you missed the train. Like you were never with us. And like, you don't, you weren't, their pain wasn't really your pain. So it really, really, really, really gets me.

[13:04] Gordon Cox: Yeah. Yeah. That's understandable. Thank you.

[13:12] Gordon Cox: I'll have more with Sanaz and Marjan right after this break.

[13:52] Marjan Neshat: They overlap two weeks of rehearsal with two weeks of performance. But it's probably the only thing that saved me from having a total breakdown. But we sat in our dressing room and wept. They had to basically escort us out. It's like we went in not quite knowing what we had, and we left with the lottery in our hands, both artistically and spiritually. And I was really excited and really scared to move to Broadway because I knew that part of the thing of the play was, A, it was given birth to and it was delicate and it was nuanced and it was intimate. And I just was worried if that would translate to Broadway. And thankfully, between Sanaz and Knut, I feel, and our set and our designers... And he was the director of Knut.

Yeah, who is brilliant. And he just, I think he took care of that. And they gave us a space so we could continue to have our intimate small moments and have that play. So it doesn't feel like that part of it was sacrificed in any way. And coming back to it, I feel there was such a trust created from the first time that I think we, from day one, just went deeper. And I think that, you know, I learned the edges of it at The Atlantic, and now it's like I've learned actually the things, like the kindness. I think me and Elham's character find each other and became foils for each other in a much deeper and more human and, in a way, female way than we... I think we figured out our fight the first time around, and then we figured out our sort of coming together in a different way.

And, you know, it's crazy. She says she wrote it as a response to the Muslim ban, and we opened three days after he came back into office. So that part of it is just, I don't even... I guess I will say that it adds an extra layer of importance to do it, to put these people, to humanize them and put them just front and center.

[16:10] Gordon Cox: What feels significant about the play being on Broadway? This is for both of you. How is seeing the show on Broadway meaningful to you, or doing the show on Broadway? It's a big one. Do you know? Do you believe in it?

[16:27] Sanaz Toossi: Well, I mean, I always say it's not just being on Broadway, but being on Broadway and doing it our way is the thing that feels really profound. But there is ultimately no denial that instead of 200 people, 740 people are seeing it. And that people, you know, people travel to see Broadway. Like my friend Heather Raffa, who had seen the play, said, you know, I was sitting next to a man who'd flown in from Ohio and was like, what should I see with his son? And he was like South Asian. And he was like, when it started, he was like, I don't know anything about this, but it was right here. And it said, you know, English. And I thought maybe we'd give it a go. And she said by the end of this play, it was like he was unslipped.

He was like, I have never thought I would go to Broadway and witness this like confluence of identity, like just my story. Like I go to and at the end, she was like, he was telling his son, like, we should tell your mom, we should see less musicals. There was like this thing that he was, he went to get entertained that he was, but he also saw a part of himself. And I feel like it's not usually the formula that is necessarily presented. So it makes a difference.

[18:45] Marjan Neshat: Yeah, I, for personal reasons, obviously it means a lot to be doing this play that I'm in this production. I'm so proud of like, yes, of course that means a lot. And like in the larger scheme of things, I knew plays should be on Broadway. Like I'm so proud to be part of a season with like, you know, Eureka Day and The Roommate and Purpose Coming Up. Like I, we live in a really tricky moment right now. And I'm not here to say art can save us, but without art, like we're going to die. Like we're going to lose what makes us human. And I think to, I don't know, to do the play, to do a new play in our way that does its own thing, that I'm really, really, really, really proud of. And the representation, of course, I'm, it means so much to me to put Iranians on stage.

Of course, it's like my North Star to show us how I know us, but representation is tricky because it's about like who, who gets in at the right time. So I can't always, I don't always feel myself. I don't let myself be like, that's not always a point of pride for me, but like Broadway should, we should be on Broadway. We're a new, different kind of play. Like that's what I'm really, really, really proud of.

[19:24] Gordon Cox: This play is set in Iran. And of course you both have deep connections to Iran. Did you travel to Iran for, did you do some research for the play? Do you travel back in life, either of you regularly?

[19:36] Sanaz Toossi: I was born there and we moved to England and California, but we moved back and got stuck for a number of years. So I fit like I've on in total, I've lived about four years of my life in Iran, but I did finish third grade there, but I have not been back since. And I did a few things where people are like, if you shoot this, you're not planning on going back anytime. So, you know, there's, there's it. I don't know if I'm, if I don't know if I would be entirely safe if I traveled there right now, but I'd love to go back.

[20:11] Marjan Neshat: I'd like to go back to Sanaz actually.

[20:13] Sanaz Toossi: Oh my God, that would be a dream.

[20:17] Marjan Neshat: Yeah. That would be a dream. I mean, most Iranian artists, like you kind of at some point in your career have to face, either make a decision or face the facts of like, if I take this job or if I keep going this way, like going back may not be an option. So it's an unfortunate fact of, you know, being in the diaspora.

[20:39] Gordon Cox: Yeah. This is a question for both of you. Tell me about the work of art that made you realize that you wanted to do what you ended up doing. Like Sanaz for you, what was the play that made you realize you wanted to be a writer in Marjan? What about the, I guess, performance that you saw that made you want to be an actor? Do you know?

[21:01] Sanaz Toossi: Well, I, when I, I think when I was seven, I saw a play in Iran that I was like, I just didn't want to leave. And I was like weeping. And I kept asking to go back and it wasn't the play itself. I think it was just that community that I saw, like just like the air between them. I was a really, really hypersensitive kid. And so I just was like, but that was always sort of, I don't know. Like, I think it was like my Achilles heel. Everyone was like, Oh, she's so sensitive. And I think when I moved here, I read a lot of books. I actually read some kind of like historical romance about some Hollywood actress. And I was like, that's my, you know, that it was, it was like different works of art, but more than anything, I think it was this understanding of both a deep desire to be on the inside of something that I cared about.

And also something that allowed me to use myself. And so it was like the, the mix of those things was how I found my way to my first play. And then I was like, Oh, it was the first time in my life. I was like, I'm not lonely. What is this? What is this thing where you get to like for a few hours a day, not be lonely.

[22:21] Marjan Neshat: I'm totally with you. Like the, the, the, your version, my version of like, Oh, I'm, I'm not lonely. It's like, Oh, I'm, I, I am understood. And I think I wanted to be an actor, but I knew that I wasn't going to be an actor. I just, I knew I didn't love it the way real actors loved it. And a part of me always thought it was like a little silly, you know? So I knew that I think what you guys do is magical and it makes me laugh. The way that we should laugh at like writer, you know, what are we doing? This make believe. But when I saw, I was like, I was not, this was like, I was, I don't know, 23 when I saw, saw 4,000 miles by Amy Herzog and I did not know plays. This is in Southern California?

[23:17] Sanaz Toossi: This is in Southern California at South Coast Rep. I had no idea plays were allowed to do that to be like, to, to create their own structure and really be character driven. And I mean, I could have stayed in that living room forever. I loved that play. I love that play. I love all her work so much. And the first time I saw that, I said, Oh, well, I have ideas on what I can do structurally. Why don't I? Oh, I, I, I'm also obsessed with how people sound and I'm more interested in the little ways people change as opposed to like big action plot, which I have never had to hold on, still don't like can't do it.

[24:13] Gordon Cox: Yeah. So it was Amy's play for me. What's next for you both? English is now running and will be running for a little while yet. But what's next for you both?

[24:26] Marjan Neshat: I, you know, I, I did. I was a recurring on the night agent, which actually premiered on the same night that we opened. So that just, it just came out. It just came out. So those, this is on Netflix, we should say. Yeah, it's on Netflix. And I'm really hoping after this that I'll have a really juicy role in something. But I don't know what it will be yet.

[24:51] Sanaz Toossi: Great. And what about you?

[24:53] Sanaz Toossi: I'm working. I'm in a writer's room right now. I'm doing TV and film to fire health insurance and also. Yeah, that's a big question for me. I mean, English has been, I've grown up with this play. It was my first production and my life has changed a lot through, you know, through what it's given me. So I'm writing a lot. I'm writing new plays and I'm just sort of like trying to spiritually adjust to what it's, to the idea that no one may ever love my other plays as much as they loved English. But that's OK. Like I, I just need to love the next thing I do.

[25:36] Marjan Neshat: So I don't know if I'm allowed to say this, but also she is. She's the hardest working woman I know. I think she wrote a play during tech. Is that true?

[25:49] Sanaz Toossi: It is true. But it was because of the panic of like, oh, shit, this is going to be over soon. I'm like, you wrote that? How is this? Like we talk, we talk so much about art and we like, you know, she knows I'm a huge Chekhov fan. I'm always like, what about this? What about this? And we trade ideas. But then she's like, oh, I'm just going to take a couple of days and write a play.

[26:11] Marjan Neshat: And is there a part for Marjan in it?

[26:13] Sanaz Toossi: There's always a part for her.

[26:15] Marjan Neshat: Excellent.

[26:17] Sanaz Toossi: I once wrote a play of just men and I was still like, how do we get her in here?

[26:23] Marjan Neshat: All men. I don't want to work with all men. No, sure. Not all men. Not all men.

[26:29] Sanaz Toossi: But all male actors, you know.

[26:32] Marjan Neshat: I hear you.

[26:34] Gordon Cox: Well, we will look forward to seeing that play starring Marjan and cast of men and or women, TBD. And it was great speaking with you both. Thanks so much for being here.

[26:46] Sanaz Toossi: Thank you for having us.

[26:48] Marjan Neshat: Thank you.

[26:49] Gordon Cox: That was Sanaz Toossi and Marjan Neshat. Toossi's Pulitzer Prize-winning play English with Neshat playing the lead role is now on Broadway. If you enjoyed this conversation here on StageCraft, help us out. We'd so appreciate it if you would take the time to rate and review us on your favorite podcasting app. It really does help. Or tell a friend about StageCraft. Find past episodes and subscribe at all the places you get your pods, including Apple Podcasts, Spotify and on the Broadway Podcast Network. A great place to find more theater for your ears. Until next episode, find me on Instagram and X at Gordon B. Cox. You can also check out my newsletter about international theater. It's called Jaquies and it's at GordonCox.Substack.com. Thanks for listening and see you at the theater.