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[0:00] Macon Prickett: Good evening everyone and welcome to the fabulous 54 Below.

[0:03] Macon Prickett: Before we get started this evening, just a polite reminder, please take this moment to silence your cell phones and also there is no flash photography, please.

[0:15] Macon Prickett: Welcome to the 54 Below podcast.

[0:17] Macon Prickett: I'm Macon Prickett, the club's assistant programming director.

[0:21] Macon Prickett: Our guest today is West End actress and comic Ellie Nunn.

[0:24] Macon Prickett: Ellie was most recently seen in the brand new British musical *Identical* based on the iconic movie *The Parent Trap* and is bringing her sell-out show *Ellie Nunn Sings Sondheim* at People to 54 Below for her New York City debut.

[0:38] Macon Prickett: Ellie Nunn, welcome to the podcast.

[0:40] Ellie Nunn: Hello.

[0:41] Macon Prickett: We are so excited to have you today.

[0:43] Macon Prickett: How are you?

[0:44] Ellie Nunn: I am great.

[0:46] Ellie Nunn: I'm not gonna lie, it's way past my bedtime.

[0:49] Ellie Nunn: It's like it's like 10 p.m. here in the tea on the phone.

[0:55] Ellie Nunn: Across the pond, as they say.

[0:58] Macon Prickett: Exactly.

[0:59] Ellie Nunn: I'm so if I fall asleep mid podcast, don't take it personally.

[1:03] Ellie Nunn: Just a very sleepy old woman.

[1:06] Macon Prickett: We'll just slowly fade out.

[1:08] Ellie Nunn: Yeah, I feel like we could double this with like sleep stories on Headspace where you like slowly lull people.

[1:14] Ellie Nunn: I'd live in the city.

[1:18] Ellie Nunn: I'm waiting for someone to hire me to do that instead of my social.

[1:24] Ellie Nunn: I feel like there has to be a crossover between Sondheim and ASMR.

[1:28] Ellie Nunn: There has to be a little, you know, it's he's so all of his stuff is so wordy.

[1:32] Ellie Nunn: You know, there's gotta be like some Sondheim ASMR somewhere.

[1:35] Macon Prickett: I guess maybe that's the problem.

[1:37] Macon Prickett: Maybe if you try to ASMR a pasta song, you sort of take out the slow swell.

[1:45] Ellie Nunn: But you could I bet you could ASMR the crap out of *Send in the Clowns*.

[1:49] Macon Prickett: Oh, yeah.

[1:50] Macon Prickett: Oh, that would be great.

[1:51] Macon Prickett: Imagine the end of each of those words.

[1:52] Ellie Nunn: It's like, isn't it rich?

[1:57] Macon Prickett: That would be incredible.

[1:58] Macon Prickett: And instead of an oboe, you could just have a little recorder.

[2:02] Ellie Nunn: That would be lovely or horrific.

[2:06] Ellie Nunn: One or the other.

[2:07] Macon Prickett: Anyway, welcome.

[2:11] Macon Prickett: Thank you for staying up for us tonight.

[2:13] Macon Prickett: Um, we're very excited for your show.

[2:16] Macon Prickett: Um, I was reading the show description and doing a little bit of research earlier, and I'm like, this sounds completely wackadoodle, and I cannot wait.

[2:25] Ellie Nunn: There may or may not be hand puppets.

[2:28] Ellie Nunn: It's that's all I'm gonna say.

[2:30] Macon Prickett: I welcome it, I support it.

[2:32] Macon Prickett: I can't wait.

[2:33] Macon Prickett: Um well, I just have to ask starting out, um, how does it feel to be bringing this show to New York City?

[2:39] Ellie Nunn: This I think I can safely say is the most special thing to happen so far in my illustrious career.

[2:49] Ellie Nunn: Um, because my love for New York City goes so deep.

[2:55] Ellie Nunn: I always say, I think even in my first emails to 54 Below, I described myself as I was like, I was meant to be a New Yorker, something went wrong, like someone missed the memo, and somehow I ended up a Londoner my whole life.

[3:11] Ellie Nunn: But my spiritual home um is very much Greenpoint, and um it's just my favorite place, especially pre-Christmas, the tacky tinsels up, I'm at Finkles.

[3:21] Ellie Nunn: I'm like it's where I feel the most myself, and um, and I come like twice a year.

[3:29] Ellie Nunn: And to be honest, with 54 Below, it was always a bit of a pipe dream.

[3:34] Ellie Nunn: I had a very sweet family friend once say, Oh, you know, you should you should.

[3:40] Ellie Nunn: I have a friend of a friend who sings, and they did it a show it's somewhere called um 54 Below.

[3:46] Ellie Nunn: You should you should just do your show there.

[3:48] Ellie Nunn: And I was like, oh, that's that's so sweet that you're you say one just like walk one does not simply walk into 54 Below, and here I am doing it.

[3:58] Ellie Nunn: I've somehow tricked the people into letting me come and do my show there.

[4:05] Ellie Nunn: It's the dream.

[4:07] Macon Prickett: And do you know do you want to know why it's like the dream of all dreams?

[4:12] Ellie Nunn: Please tell me.

[4:12] Ellie Nunn: 54 Below specifically.

[4:17] Ellie Nunn: We know this is the home of Broadway legends.

[4:21] Ellie Nunn: We know that this is a sort of sanctuary for Broadway performers, but far more importantly, this is where Luanne Delice made her initial breakthrough moment as the cabaret star that she is, and to be treading those same boards is the biggest privilege of my career.

[4:46] Macon Prickett: Oh my goodness.

[4:47] Macon Prickett: Well, I have to say I have worked with her many times.

[4:49] Macon Prickett: So when you're here, we're going to we'll have a whole dish.

[4:52] Ellie Nunn: Oh god, the fabulous Countess Luann.

[4:56] Ellie Nunn: Um, you know, she's going to be here just like a month later.

[4:59] Macon Prickett: I know.

[4:59] Ellie Nunn: Well, I it was suggested to me that I should ask her to guest, but I was worried that she'd upstage me because she would.

[5:06] Ellie Nunn: But I was like, don't we need to hear her doing *Could I Leave You* or something?

[5:11] Ellie Nunn: Could I absolutely uh Countess Countess Luann's Phyllis in *Follies* sign me up?

[5:17] Macon Prickett: I am so here for that.

[5:18] Ellie Nunn: I could I feel like we could talk for an hour or many hours about just asking housewives as various Sondheims.

[5:28] Macon Prickett: We'll have to save that for when you're here because we're just gonna, we could really uh that would be chaos.

[5:33] Ellie Nunn: Um no, I I love that.

[5:35] Ellie Nunn: But yes, this is where this is where the Countess Cabaret began, and now look, it's like this huge, it's a moment.

[5:41] Ellie Nunn: I feel she walked so I could run.

[5:44] Ellie Nunn: I feel that's incredible.

[5:46] Ellie Nunn: I will be taking I see her bongo playing and I raise her hand puppets and audience interruptions.

[5:55] Macon Prickett: There we go.

[5:55] Ellie Nunn: There we go.

[5:56] Ellie Nunn: They go hand in hand.

[5:57] Ellie Nunn: You can't have one without the other.

[5:59] Macon Prickett: Absolutely.

[6:00] Macon Prickett: Well, I um curious to know, you know, you've performed this show um in London.

[6:06] Macon Prickett: Um how do you feel?

[6:08] Macon Prickett: You know, I know that the preparation for the two shows could be similar, but bringing the show to New York, what are you anticipating will change about the show and your performance um on for New York audiences and on the stage here in New York versus um in London?

[6:24] Ellie Nunn: Um well, in London, because I've been performing it for quite a while.

[6:28] Ellie Nunn: Uh it's sort of become a sort of sellout show at the Crazy Cox.

[6:35] Ellie Nunn: And I I don't know anyone in New York, so I'm mainly anticipating performing it to no one.

[6:40] Ellie Nunn: Uh, but besides the empty auditorium of 54 Below.

[6:48] Ellie Nunn: That I will be heavily preparing for.

[6:50] Ellie Nunn: Um, in all seriousness, uh I feel a lot of pressure.

[6:57] Ellie Nunn: I think my relationship to Sondheim and and connection to his work across my life has felt so personal, but you you really um you really have to take note when you're coming to the birthplace of so much of his work, and um his presence is so felt in New York City in a way that we don't perhaps have unless you're in a particularly theatre-centric location of London.

[7:34] Ellie Nunn: It's not quite the same, it's not woven into the fabric of the city in the same way.

[7:40] Ellie Nunn: So I feel that as a pressure, but I think because the show is so personal to me and this like weird lonely little English girl's relationship to his work, um, that acts as a sort of protection for me in the show rather than uh implying that you're coming along and sort of just presenting one's interpretation of his music.

[8:04] Macon Prickett: Uh yeah.

[8:09] Macon Prickett: That's awesome.

[8:11] Macon Prickett: Um I know I I understand exactly what you're saying.

[8:13] Macon Prickett: And you know, as you said, feeling his presence.

[8:17] Macon Prickett: I mean, we have three huge productions of his works happening right now in New York City.

[8:22] Macon Prickett: You know, we have the *Sweeney Todd* Revival, we have the *Merrily We Roll Along* revival, and then his final project um playing at the shed here in the city.

[8:31] Macon Prickett: So it's it's his presence is still very much felt.

[8:36] Macon Prickett: And you know, I know that on the West End right now, they have the *Old Friends* um musical, you know, kind of tribute.

[8:43] Macon Prickett: Have you been able to see that yet?

[8:44] Ellie Nunn: I have, yeah.

[8:46] Ellie Nunn: I actually went with Helena Bonham Carter the other night.

[8:48] Macon Prickett: So oh, that's fabulous.

[8:50] Macon Prickett: What a date.

[8:51] Ellie Nunn: I know I think everyone thought we were launching our new relationship.

[8:55] Ellie Nunn: Um I did go and see it, and you know what I found so moving was to think how extraordinary that a show entirely celebrating the work of Stephen Sondheim has an audience for it to run for months in the West End.

[8:55] Ellie Nunn: It's one thing to do a one-off celebration for an evening but I think it's pretty extraordinary that his work has a big enough reach and has touched enough people to have an entire run celebrating just the one composer’s, and honestly the band to hear his music in particular um played that extraordinarily I mean for me the highlight of that entire concert is the *Merrily Overture* in its full form.

[9:43] Ellie Nunn: We I I did um *Merrily We Roll Along* when I was at university and we didn't have the overture it started it had some bleak kind of student opening where like Frank was gonna like take drugs and so it was like no no overture we will start on a blank stage oh my Jamie Lloyd production and so I always have like a particular soft spot for the overture.

[10:05] Ellie Nunn: And and for that show generally yeah so I'm I'm hoping to catch it while I'm over.

[10:05] Macon Prickett: I was about to ask you if you're gonna be able to see it when you're here.

[10:14] Ellie Nunn: I have been watching so much about it and I'm very protective of *Merrily We Roll Along* as anyone who's been in any student or Am Dram production of a show and for some reason feels they have license to forever be like it wasn't as good as I understand and what I love watching interviews with the three leads.

[10:33] Ellie Nunn: First of all, I just love Lindsay Mendez and me too.

[10:37] Ellie Nunn: I'm just so glad she's playing it because I feel so protective of that part and of the of like who should be playing it.

[10:44] Ellie Nunn: And I just think she's extraordinary.

[10:47] Ellie Nunn: But the friendship between those three and the the joy, I really feel that that production has capitalized very cleverly on the most powerful element of that show, which is that to be honest, if you invest in the friendship of the trio, and if you care about the friendship and you invested the actors portraying that friendship, it almost doesn't really matter what the rest of the shows like set or does.

[10:47] Macon Prickett: I know it's awful to say, and I'm not saying that all of that other stuff isn't amazing.

[11:20] Ellie Nunn: Absolutely.

[11:20] Ellie Nunn: If you don't invest in that central relationship, it doesn't, it won't, it can't be saved by anything else.

[11:28] Macon Prickett: I totally agree.

[11:29] Macon Prickett: And I I have to tell you, I just saw it um two weeks ago.

[11:32] Ellie Nunn: Yeah.

[11:33] Macon Prickett: And I also I I was introduced to the show in college and have loved, loved, loved it ever since.

[11:38] Macon Prickett: And you know, I I went two weeks ago and I, you know, my expectations were very high, but I also just to hear the score and to watch that show live, I was almost just, you know, like whatever.

[11:51] Macon Prickett: Let's I'll see any production of it.

[11:53] Macon Prickett: But it is it really is close to perfection.

[11:56] Macon Prickett: I just to be surrounded to be in an audience filled with people laughing at those clever lyrics and the jokes, and you know, crying and sniffling during those really heartbreaking moments.

[12:08] Macon Prickett: I'm like, and this to think that it was just this massive flop when it premiered.

[12:14] Ellie Nunn: What's so extraordinary is the book is so good.

[12:16] Ellie Nunn: It's one of the best books of any uh musical I've ever been in.

[12:20] Ellie Nunn: And I think generally that James Lapine and Sondheim's book collaborators don't get enough credit for how integral they are to the success of his work.

[12:30] Ellie Nunn: Uh but *Merrily* truly is the closest to doing a play with songs.

[12:34] Macon Prickett: Absolutely.

[12:35] Ellie Nunn: And the songs come so organically and beautifully out of the scenes.

[12:41] Ellie Nunn: Um I heard a great story.

[12:43] Ellie Nunn: Uh the the three leads were telling the other day about one night when Dan Radcliffe finished Frank and Shepherd Inc.

[12:49] Ellie Nunn: and someone in the audience shouted, um, was like shouting, Bravo, bravo, and they were like, Who is that?

[12:55] Ellie Nunn: And it was Mandy Patinkin.

[12:57] Macon Prickett: And what's so funny about that is that when we did our student production, we finished *Now You Know*, and someone in the audience went, Oh yeah, before anyone clapped, and we were like, Who is that?

[13:13] Ellie Nunn: And it was Maria Friedman, director of this production of *Merrily*.

[13:17] Macon Prickett: Oh my goodness.

[13:18] Ellie Nunn: Yeah.

[13:18] Ellie Nunn: So I thought, what a wonderful like mirroring.

[13:22] Macon Prickett: That is an incredible.

[13:22] Ellie Nunn: She was entirely inspired by uh me and my performance.

[13:27] Macon Prickett: She was.

[13:27] Ellie Nunn: I think she's she said that, did she not?

[13:30] Macon Prickett: I think she I think she will be saying it when she collects the Tony, and Lindsay Mendez as well will be saying to my original Mary.

[13:39] Ellie Nunn: Unknown English actress Ellie Nunn.

[13:41] Macon Prickett: Thank you.

[13:43] Ellie Nunn: I love it.

[13:44] Ellie Nunn: I love it.

[13:44] Ellie Nunn: No, it's it's a it's such a special show, and we're we're totally gonna get we're gonna get more into that later.

[13:49] Macon Prickett: Um the cabaret scene, just because I'm very unfamiliar with the cabaret scene in London versus, you know, obviously I work here in New York, I live here, and the cabaret scene is is huge here, and we have several cabaret venues, and including 54 Below, obviously.

[14:07] Macon Prickett: And I'm curious to know um your opinion on how different it is from that of the New York cabaret scene.

[14:16] Ellie Nunn: Because I'm, you know, what can you tell us about the scene over in London and how it compares?

[14:21] Ellie Nunn: I would say it's very different in terms of I think the competition is less fierce, hence why I've had the level of success I have.

[14:29] Ellie Nunn: Just in, and I don't, I'm for once, that's not even a joke.

[14:32] Ellie Nunn: But I think that we have less of a culture of not just of musical theater performers performing cabaret, but of people who specifically their skill set is to uh hold an audience and talk to an audience and connect songs to themselves.

[14:52] Ellie Nunn: I think it's a very different thing. What we do have quite often is performers will do like a night somewhere singing some of their favorite songs, which is great, which is lovely. But I think the art of cabaret, the art of creating as authentic as possible, a version of yourself and connecting to an audience and connecting your personal experiences to songs. And I remember Philip Quest saying to me once that in order for a cabaret to be justified, you must have a take on those songs. There's no point if you're just singing the songs. There has to be a reason that it makes it yours specifically. Right. Um, and I don't think we have that as much over here. I mean, we have the main venues are the Pheasantry, and then the big one is Crazy Cox in Brass Residale, and it's beautiful, and it's sort of the 54 Below of London, and I adore it.

I adore the team there and the shows that go on. Um, but I'm definitely I'm excited to be a part of the legacy of sort of New York cabaret. And it's something that I would like to do far more because I do think it's more celebrated. I think generally you guys have the propensity to celebrate and lift people up is a much bigger thing in America, and not to talk too badly about my own culture, but I think that there is a cynicism to, I mean, I know we're talking about New York, and New York is obviously like famously deeply cynical. But I think that there's like an English, um, it's not very cool to care, and it's not uh there's quite a pessimistic approach that means um someone once put it to me brilliantly where they said you could ask an American actor who hasn't worked for seven years, who's working in a cafe, what they do, and they'd be like, Oh, I'm an actor.

And you could ask an English actor who's in a show in the West End at the moment, what do you do? And they'd be like, Um, well, I sort of try I try and act if someone will let me, but like I don't, it's awful. Like so, if anything, I'm preparing, I'm hoping that like even just the way that audiences in New York or in across the US, like vocally love theatre and appreciate theatre, and the um, I think you feel the relationship with an audience much more. For sure, for sure. And it's so interesting to be having this conversation with you because I just had a very similar conversation in a previous episode with Francis Rafael, because Francis Rafael is a darling, I mean, incredible person. I cannot wait for their show.

But you know, she and I were talking with Norman Bowman, you know, they're doing their cabaret here together, Frankie and Bosey in November. And we were talking about cabaret, and she was kind of telling me as a very seasoned cabaret performer her kind of philosophy on cabaret. And she said, you know, anyone truly can sing through their dream roles or their resume or you know, songs they like, but to really take a cabaret show and put it together in a way where it flows, it maybe doesn't have to have necessarily a strong narrative, but to have more of a theatrical piece rather than just song song song. Absolutely. And you want to take the audience on a journey. It's essential, and it's why it's very hard to explain to people sometimes without you know sounding too wanky.

I get asked to do the show sometimes where people say about can you cut, you know, through three or four songs to make it shorter or whatever. And I don't think people sometimes understand that the place everything is very carefully. You can't have sort of too many of this style of song next to this style, and this has to get people into this place, and we have to like leave people in a certain place. And God, it's so funny. I actually just did the show on a cruise around Europe, and the pianist um basically couldn't play the songs because they'd never played Sondheim. They'd never seen Sondheim, and they'd only given the music the day before. And the show is something like 14 songs, and I the head of entertainment said, Well, you'll have to just only play the ones he can play.

So we did six. Uh I had to fill for the other 45 minutes. Just talk. Because I only had six songs for the show. Oh my gosh. Frances Rafael, I mean, talk about like someone paving the way. I mean, and she really is is one of the reasons why I got into cabaret in the first place. Cause I remember she's been a family friend since I was little. And then I went to see her cabaret at Crazy Cox um years ago, and it was extraordinary. And uh and she gave me wonderful advice when I started out with mine of just saying now the challenge is you just do it as much sauce when you do it to three people in a basement, you just keep the muscle going, working a bit, because if you get too much in the habit, I I was very stuck in the habit of each time I did a cabaret, it had to be a totally new show.

And I was like, because I started they started out being Gordelli dan sing songs at people and uh and because I did stand up as well, I felt like well, I can't tell the same jokes again, and only I think the Sondheim show is the first time over the last few years that I started to do the same show again and again, yeah. Uh as like a set piece. Wow. Well, going back just a bit, you know, I know that you do come from a bit of a showbiz family, and so um, so I I'm just interested to um talk a bit about your um upbringing with your family and how you know that showbiz bug bit you at first. Was this always something you wanted to be a part of? Was it did you always just kind of know you would fit into this this sort of showbiz world?

Or did you finally still think I fit in? Uh no, no, it was very much uh don't put your daughter on the stage. Um sort of uh my parents really actively tried to dissuade me from doing this, and it's funny. I'm 32, and really this year is the first time I've started to truly understand why because it's always been hard, but the older you get, and the more I mean last month I I just got down to the final two for my sort of dream role in the West End, and it doesn't go your way, and you sob with a kind of grief that I thought I get why my parents didn't want me to do this because actually the slow sort of chipping away, it really the resilience it takes. I always assume they didn't want me to do it because they didn't think I was quite good enough, and actually realizing that no one wants to see someone they love have to again and again just go, it yeah, it just didn't it's it's not it's just not fair, or it's just not you, or it's just whatever.

Uh but the way I got into this um was very much uh a product of the exposure to theatre and to have the opportunity. I mean my parents didn't want me to do this, they certainly didn't encourage me, but what a privilege to grow up watching Cats and Les Mis again and again and again and Starlight Express, like these. I feel so lucky to have been at a time where theatre was such an event. Like can you like imagine? I think back to Starlight Express, which the lyrics are so bad, and it's really if you did the show on its own is like terrible, but I love it. But the same the scale of it and the it's the adrenaline. I mean, so and so I actually I think I wanted to be a dancer because what kid didn't watch Cats and go like I'm gonna do that.

I was like, I'm gonna I'm gonna play Bum Belina and I was a big Skimbleshanks fan. I just knew I was gonna be Skimbleshanks one day. And how heartbreaking was it the moment when you realized that you weren't, and it's like it was quite late. I was in my late 20s, I think when I was like it happened yesterday for me, actually. I was like, dang, it's really not gonna happen. It's funny because I still think of myself as a dancer, because because I do plays as as well as musical theater, I didn't actually intend to do musical theater particularly. When I'm in a play, everyone's like, You're an amazing dancer, and I'm like, Thank you so much, and then you rock up to movement rehearsals in a musical, and everyone's like laughing or being like, I mean, I'm like, oh, I didn't realize I was the joke, and now I do so, yeah.

In my head, I'm still an amazing dancer, but the yeah, to to grow up around those shows and um and and just backstage. I mean, when I was really young, my dad was running the National. So I spent a lot of my childhood just like backstage at the National and just running around. And I think that can't not seep in. Um but actually with Sondheim, my my love of his work didn't come from my parents at all. It came from a mad singing teacher I had, um, who would come to my house on Saturday mornings. She was one of our next door neighbours, and she brought a trunk of Sondheim librettoes. I was about eight, and I just went off and every week listened to the cassettes of Sweeney Todd and Company and Into the Woods, and I had the the books of the musical, not the scores.

So I was reading them like plays, and I would just sit on my bedroom floor and write the lyrics out into notebooks and dress up as the characters, and it was amazing because no one my age knew that, so it felt completely mine and personal to me. And I think a lot of musical theater performers had a similar relationship to Sondheim and almost struggled in his passing to realise that they weren't the only person who had that special connection. I felt really overprotective when everyone was like tweeting lyrics of his, and I was like, you don't know, man. Like I had this real sense of I think how extraordinary that his work made people feel like so individually seen.

[26:27] Ellie Nunn: Yes. There's something to be said about that that's really that's really special. Because you can't say that about just anyone.

[26:35] Ellie Nunn: No, I mean it's it's cliche to sort of say you have sort of Shakespeare and Sondheim, but what they share is this universality and this observation of the kind of human form and psyche that touches things where you think, how did he know? How did Sondheim know what it's like to be a bitter, resentful, heartbroken 50-year-old woman? Or like, how did he write so well for women? I know. And how can you write such eviscerating work on pulling relationships apart and heartbreak and his cynicism over marriage? And you think, okay, I we've got it, we get how you feel, and then come in with even things I know he hated them, but even like the lyrics to Tonight or West Side Story and stuff like that, and you think the romanticism and the belief and the faith in love, and you're like, how could you have both and contain both? Because we do, and it's extraordinary.

[27:40] Macon Prickett: It is, it is. We I want to talk so much, Marge, with you about Sondheim and the inspiration for your show. So we are going to take a quick break, and we're going to be back with Ellie Nunn after a few short messages.

[27:57] Macon Prickett: And we are back with Ellie Nunn talking about her upcoming performance. Ellie Nunn sings Sondheim at People on Tuesday, November 28th at 54 Below, 9:30 p.m. Get your tickets. Um, Ellie.

[28:09] Ellie Nunn: Oh my god, again, then it's gonna be way past my bedtime. I feel these things are happening so late.

[28:16] Macon Prickett: Yes. So um this upcoming um Sondheim tribute performance, if I could call it that.

[28:24] Ellie Nunn: Yeah. Uh at 54 Below, um, what can the audience expect from this performance? Besides strange props, um I would hope that it has an arc and journey of both growing up and that personal connection to his work that so many of us felt. Um, I don't think it's too specific to uh take that away from anyone. And I hope that people would come away with having experienced thoughtful, brave and intelligent interpretations of his work, because I think that's the best that we can ever hope to do for his work. And I think when it comes to me, the focus is really on lyric, and it always has been. I've always had this lifelong obsession with lyrics. And I actually went to LA when I was 13 on a lyric writing course and recorded an album under the pseudonym Kid Lel. The more you know.

[29:34] Ellie Nunn: It was just awful. But I really, I really there was a period in my life when I thought I wanted to write lyrics, and sometimes I feel that in celebrating his work, the lyrics come second to a very faithful following of his music, and you know, I understand his music is hard and it's complicated, and absolutely it requires respect, but I'm very interested in a performer as a performer. I think because I said I come from a background in plays, in treading that line between that heightened form and that naturalism and speech quality that for me is all about connecting to what it's saying. Um, so I would hope people came away potentially saying I've never listened to the lyrics like that before.

Wow. They can expect magic, sheer theoretical magic, and magic's what they're going to get. Um, speaking of Sondheim's lyrics and how, you know, no one had a way with words quite like Stephen Sondheim. Um, and forgive me for asking this question, but what is, if you had to pick just off the top of your head, what's one of your favorite lyrics of his or an example or two? I know that's like the hardest.

[31:02] Ellie Nunn: I have to say two. Okay. I think it's about, for me with lyric, it always comes down to universality versus specificity. So the genius with lyrics, with his comedy and with his wit. Um, actually it doesn't even have to be witty, but you take something like "Moments in the Woods," the specificity of things like makes the or mean more than it did before, and the, you know, that is so we're zoomed so far in on the vowels there and the consonants, and those are what make his lyrics clever. Yes. And so I have many favorite clever lyrics. Um, and then you have his universality, and you have these lyrics where he, that cut through the simplicity of an observation. Uh, and for me, the number one has always been "Careful before you say, listen to me, children will listen." It's just so simple.

[32:22] Ellie Nunn: It is. Well, and isn't it amazing how he could say so much with so little? And that's something that always has really fascinated me with his lyrics because he, you know, he'll have a lyric such as that one, which it means everything, but he's, it's so simply put, not that it's not brilliant and intelligent, but it's just very simply put like those lyrics, and it can mean so much. You can walk away with so much from those lyrics, and oh, it's like every lyric of "No One is Alone," or I think "Into the Woods" has a lot of my favorite. I think because of the relationship to parents and the relationship, the one that always catches me off guard, how much it devastates me is "No More." And I teach sometimes at Lambda over here, the drama school, and one of the students sang "No More," and three students got so upset they had to leave the class, and one of them had to go home.

[33:28] Ellie Nunn: That happened quite a lot with my class where people were just like sobbing. You did your job as an educator. I was like, they need to know life online. But that song, um, every time when it again we go specificity versus um universality, the build of all of that um can't, can't we just, can't we just something our lives? What is the word there? Can't we just pursue our lives with our children and our wives till that happy day arrives? How do you ignore and all that build of the first and the first the reverses? The wondering what even next is still in store, and you're just like specificity, specificity, and then that silence, and then that bit when it goes, all the children and it kills me.

I don't even know what it means. I don't even know why he says all the children in that moment. But the children, but it's exactly the thing that it's like, oh god. But that's, that's kind of, you know what I was saying earlier. It what does it mean? But it means everything, everything exactly it's wild.

[34:46] Macon Prickett: Well, is there a certain song? And of course, we don't want to spoil too much or give too much away, but is there a certain song in your performance, your show that really speaks to you or moves you in a special way that you're performing here at 54 Below?

[35:03] Ellie Nunn: I think I'm having an interesting time rewriting the sort of chat before "Being Alive" because my show when I was single, I would talk quite openly and, you know, quite, I feel quite vulnerable opening up to an audience about how much shame I had around the fear of being alone and how much I wanted to just be this like really fierce, girlboss, independent woman, and how the pressure I felt to be so fine with that, but deep down this fear of what if maybe everyone doesn't find someone and what if I'm never seen by someone my life doesn't matter to someone in that way. Uh, it was great, it was really everyone's like sobbing, and then you think "Being Alive," it's like blah, yeah. Now I'm in a relationship, and I have this really interesting thing that I actually feel I understand the song better.

[36:21] Ellie Nunn: Which I was not expecting, but actually the, in a way there's nothing more like the one thing more frightening than being alone is being with someone. And that has definitely spoken to me in new ways of realizing that the fear of putting your faith in someone and risk and being seen. All this time I was so scared about not being seen, and actually being seen is so scary, and life is so hard, and doing that with someone is really hard. Right. And so that song, I just think how amazing. And it's a cliché because it's so famous, but it never stops giving new things, and it never, I never stop learning from it. I never stop hearing lyrics fresh and going, God, I've never even listened to that. Um, that line in that way, or so that one's always special, and I love "Send in the Clowns" because I think it's one of the most misunderstood songs in musical theater.

[37:44] Ellie Nunn: I think it's often mistaken for this very heavy pathos, heavy melancholic song. Definitely, and I think there's such a lightness to it in its embarrassment and in its, um, God, we all know what that feels like when you've just put yourself out there and you just want to die, and you just think, oh my god, please go away and stop looking at me. And it's an extraordinary thing to be captured. So that's always one of my favorites because a lot of people I think have are familiar with a much kind of like more languid version. Yes, yeah. And that's, uh, "Send in the Clowns" has always been one of my favorites as well. And it's something about, you know, you said putting yourself out there multiple times. Sometimes you just can't be devastatingly sad about it. Sometimes there is just that kind of light embarrassment, and that's "Send in the Clowns" to me.

[38:43] Ellie Nunn: Yeah, you know the clowns are on their way, they're on their way. They're here. So we've talked about some of your favorite Sondheim lyrics. We're gonna do a little lightning round here. This is not going to be easy, but if you had to pick a favorite Sondheim show.

[38:59] Ellie Nunn: I, I sorry, I thought you were gonna be like now one of your least favorite.

[39:04] Macon Prickett: Never, I'm ready.

[39:06] Ellie Nunn: Oh, I've got it. It's maybe he's a farmer. It's a terrible lyric. Every time I sing, there won't be trumpets, I'm always like, what do I do with this? Maybe he's a farmer. Like that's so funny. Oh my gosh, I'm like, come on, there was something better there.

[39:21] Macon Prickett: Okay, sorry, lightning round. Great stuff. Favorite Sondheim.

[39:27] Ellie Nunn: Oh, it's too hard. Um, it's too hard, like merely for having been in it, but "Into the Woods" for watching it. If it's done well. I mean that goes forward. Um, dream role. Uh, Dot. Love. Love. What a great role. Because "Sunday" is my favorite would be my favorite score, I think. Okay. Dot. Yeah, I mean that's, and especially with, you know, a hand puppet as George, you know, there's gotta be something there. Every female subject role I play, the man will be a hand puppet. So I'll be like Baker's wife, baker hand puppet, Charlotte, Magnus, hand puppet, Georgia and puppet. I'll do them all. Absolutely. Alanny Ashford's leaving. Mrs. Lovett, Sweeney Hand Puppet. It's great. I know you all think who's gonna take over. They're not expecting an unknown British lady and a hand puppet.

[40:35] Ellie Nunn: And a hand puppet. But you have to control both, obviously. You know, you have to play. Of course. It's yeah, yeah, of course. That's amazing. Well, in your show description, I know you say, or I know it reads, there won't be trumpets, there might be sock puppets. Which I just think is first of all hilarious. Um, but can you tell us just a little bit about where the hand puppet of it all came from? Where did the shtick begin with you? Did you go through like puppetry classes or I don't know why I did it? I, there are so many Sondheim songs that I could have done, and for some reason I started doing this show like five years ago, and for some reason I was like, No, I want to do "Not Getting Married Today," but I want to do all three parts.

[41:25] Ellie Nunn: And as you should. For some reason, I was like, I think it'd be really funny if I had hand puppets of the priestess and the husband, the groom. And my friend is like the number one puppet designer in the UK, and he was like, I'll make them for you. So they're made by him, which is funny because they are just sock puppets, but just funny that they're made by someone really qualified. Um, and they've been everywhere with me. They came on the cruise, they came, they've been to Crazy Cox, now they're coming to New York. I promise they're in, they're only in the one number. That's okay. I mean, if you were gonna do a whole, you know, like Muppet Sondheim crossover, I would not be at all upset.

[42:10] Ellie Nunn: Honestly, that should have happened somewhere. I've definitely considered doing "Weekend in the Country" by myself with lots of hats. Um, I like a challenge. I support it. I'm so excited for the show. And I, you know, you can bring in all the puppets, even if it's not just for one number. Yeah, exactly. You can have a drink with the puppets after if you like. Uh, thank you. That means a lot.

[42:36] Macon Prickett: Well, Ellie, can you tell us where we or tell our listeners where we can find you on social media?

[42:43] Ellie Nunn: Yes, absolutely. I'm on Instagram at Ellie Nunnery. That's where I'm mainly based. I'm on Twitter somewhere as well, probably under Ellie Nunnery as well. And, um, God, I have little to no social media presence. I'm a very boring person, Macon. I'm just that just means that everyone's going to have to love sometime and it's very important.

[43:09] Ellie Nunn: Well, that just means all of our listeners are gonna have to purchase a ticket for "Ellie Nunn Sings Sondheim" at 54 Below. Tuesday. Make me a star. Make me a star. You wanna follow me on social media? Make me a star. Let's do it. Let's do it. Well, thank you so much for staying up with us tonight. Yeah, I'm straight to bed now. She's cranky. You're sleeping until November 28th. Don't be doing this show with us at 54 Below. I love it. Well, thank you again so much, Ellie. This has been a blast, and we really cannot wait for this show. So Sondheim lovers, get your tickets. You have to come see the show. Lovely chatting with you. Amazing. Lovely chatting with you too. See you soon. Bye.

[43:57] Macon Prickett: You've been listening to the 54 Below podcast, part of the Broadway Podcast Network. To find out more about our upcoming shows, visit us at 54below.org.