This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Gennean Scott: Be able to speak up for yourself. Think about how you want to address it with the person um before you actually do it because it could also backfire too, you know? But you've gotta no one else is gonna be able to stand up for you except for you.

[0:17] Gennean Scott: Welcome to the Black Business of Broadway, a podcast brought to you by the Broadway League and Black to Broadway. Here we highlight the stories, how-tos, and successes of the Black professionals and legends of Broadway. I'm your host, Gennean Scott.

[0:42] Gennean Scott: Today's guest is Darrelle Johnson, the Vice President of People and Culture for Jujamcyn Theaters. Darrelle leads the strategic HR functions for five Broadway theaters whose productions include Tony Award-winning shows such as Moulin Rouge! The Musical, Hadestown, Kinky Boots, and The Book of Mormon, just to name a few. Prior to joining Jujamcyn Theaters, she has successfully championed large-scale luxury and full-service hotel conversions, airline catering takeovers, and significant cultural human resource transformations in South Florida, Chicago, and New York City. Welcome.

[1:24] Darrelle Johnson: Thank you.

[1:27] Gennean Scott: I am so excited uh to have you here. We've been talking about this for over a year now.

[1:34] Darrelle Johnson: Yeah.

[1:34] Gennean Scott: And we finally have made it happen. Uh so I am grateful.

[1:40] Darrelle Johnson: I'm excited to be here.

[1:41] Gennean Scott: Yay! So let's just jump right in. Because before joining Jujamcyn, you held several leadership positions as an HR professional in the hotel industry. What motivated you to transition into working in the Broadway industry?

[2:00] Darrelle Johnson: Well, that's a good question. Like, why? Yeah, I mean, I didn't just wake up one day and was like, ah, I want to go work on Broadway. It didn't happen that way. Um, hotels is a 24-7 business, and being in that space in HR for 20 years, it can take a toll on you. So I definitely needed to make a switch. Still stayed in hospitality, did the consulting thing, then stayed in hospitality, did the airline catering thing, and realized that I, in order for me to do my job effectively, there's gotta be alignment in terms of values, my personal values, business values, whatever, between me, the owner of our company, and my boss, basically, right? So C Suite essentially. So I was really looking for a place like that.

That was the intention, right? And um, then I ended up meeting my current boss Hal and our owner Jordan and our CFO. And um, I remember after my interview, I went home and I said, dang, is this real? Because though they're saying all the right stuff, right? And then when I finally met our owner and I saw started to see some samples of some of the work that they were doing with cultural transformation and the company values and all of this, I said, I think I think I'm gonna make the leap. And uh that's how I ended up here.

[3:22] Gennean Scott: That's awesome.

[3:23] Darrelle Johnson: Yeah.

[3:23] Gennean Scott: So, you know, people you're Vice President of People and Culture, and you come from HR and people don't understand how the two intersect.

[3:34] Darrelle Johnson: Yeah.

[3:34] Gennean Scott: Can you talk a little bit about the difference and the similarities that exist and why it's People and Culture as opposed to Human Resources?

[3:45] Darrelle Johnson: Well, think back to when HR first started, right? It was really the personnel department. We're basically like the paper pushers, right? Right. And eventually over time it changed to it evolved to human resources management. Then you started to see more departments or companies changing the department name to talent department or talent manager. And this I think is like another evolution of HR, which is People and Culture. It's not just payroll, it's not just the administrative part of it. It's also focusing on the strategic part of the role, the things also that include the diversity work, um, all of those things. Um, you know, so that's what I think is they're not two different things. I think it's really an evolution of where the personnel department started, um, you know, from that standpoint. So that's how I would describe it.

[4:35] Gennean Scott: Yeah, and it's about seeing employees as people, right?

[4:39] Darrelle Johnson: Exactly. And and as a whole person and individuals bringing their whole selves because like you said, there's that intersection of uh the EDI equity diversity inclusion work that happens in the world of HR, and this is kind of just all encompassing.

[4:57] Darrelle Johnson: Yeah. I mean, you know, if if someone often when I introduce myself as that, they're like, Well, what does that mean? Um, and if you Google it, who knows what you're gonna find. The way that I describe it for me is it it's really us helping the business achieve its goals through people, whether it's recruiting and staffing, whether it's learning and development, uh, you name it, right? So that's that's how I describe it. And so I've got to constantly remind myself of that, that. That everything that I do on a daily basis has got to be aligned to the overall bigger picture.

[5:32] Gennean Scott: That makes sense.

[5:33] Darrelle Johnson: Yeah, no, it makes absolute sense. So when did you what was the moment that you realized the impact of um creating a culture of inclusiveness and belonging within your within the organization you're in right now?

[5:51] Darrelle Johnson: Yeah, um, I would say, gosh, the first thing that comes to mind is when I worked on a harassment investigation with an employee. And um when I part of my deal is I always call people back. You know, you don't just talk to me and file your complaint and then you never hear from me again. Right, great. I keep you updated, I'm like, hey, I talk to this person, um, you know, keep me posted if you hear anything. And then towards the end, I call them back and say, hey, look, it's been resolved, it's been addressed. So that's one thing that I that I think about. Um I think there's still for for us in what we do, I think it's hard to really realize that we are making an impact because we're not, you know, we're not a revenue generating department.

So it's kind of like, you know, you have to remind yourself of all your accomplishments. And so that that's the first thing that that comes to mind. And um, I think just creating this culture where people can feel comfortable. Like if you if I can have a porter or a cleaner feel comfortable coming to me about anything, um, that to me makes me feel like they feel like they're a part of something greater and they feel comfortable enough to talk to someone at at my level. You know, of course, they have their supervisor, they have their house manager, but that's the kind of environment that we've created since I started. And there's no way to measure that, but it's just it's just me telling you, right?

[7:15] Gennean Scott: Right. Well, I mean, you know, I think it gets measured in the retention.

[7:20] Darrelle Johnson: Yeah.

[7:20] Gennean Scott: And in those satisfaction type, you know, surveys and those stay interviews that you know so many organizations are starting to do when it's exactly what you said, when they they feel comfortable because listen, you're in the C-suite.

[7:35] Darrelle Johnson: Yeah.

[7:36] Gennean Scott: And we're talking about as most companies, you know, there's a hierarchy structure, right? And when we're looking at the rungs on the ladder, it's rare that you see the first rung, you know, going up to the top rung and and having conversation and feel and feeling comfortable.

[7:55] Darrelle Johnson: Comfortable, yeah.

[7:57] Gennean Scott: So that that's important. That's that's really important. So what it so, as a woman of color though, you know, in that C-suite position, how have you navigated your way through this senior leadership, not just in the theater industry, but just in general, because you know, Broadway mirrors, I say this all the time, Broadway mirrors the real world. We're not any different just because we're the theater industry, we're still plagued by the same things that other industries are are plagued with. So, how have you navigated your way up to the senior leadership role? Uh you know, as a woman of color.

[8:38] Darrelle Johnson: Yeah, it's um I've never I'll be honest with you, I've never been asked this question so often until I got to in this industry. Um, and I understand why, right? So I think back in the hotel days, for example, you would see more of us in these positions, right? And not just in DEI positions, we would be in all kinds of of departments. Um for me, I and I'll just share with you an example. That's probably the best way that I could answer it for you. Is this term microaggressions? I've never experienced it until I started working in the industry, right? And everybody goes through it at some point in time. And um for me, I think it's important to have the right support when you do experience something like this, but also be able to have enough confidence to be able to call it out and call it out professionally and respectfully.

Um, because when it's especially when it's done in front of your colleagues or in a meeting, um, either one, they don't realize it, or two, they know what they're doing and they don't give a shit. Right. Right, right. Right. And nobody else is experiencing what I'm experiencing, so I've got to speak up for myself. Um, and so for me, I would pull someone to the side and explain to them, hey, this is how you made me feel. Um, we just had a meeting about this, we talked about it. Why do you think it was necessary to bring it up again in the way that you did publicly, right? Um, and so there was an apology and all of that. So we're me and this person are all good now. But if I didn't have that conversation with that person, if I didn't have confidence in myself to have that conversation, this person would probably continue to do what they're doing, right?

Um, but my follow-up step was to go to my superior and say, Hey dude, you gotta have my back when this kind of stuff happens because you saw what happened in the meeting. I need your support, you know?

[10:30] Gennean Scott: Right.

[10:30] Darrelle Johnson: Um, and and it we understood, like everybody's cool now, but I guess if I had to give someone advice about this, is be able to speak up for yourself, think about how you want to address it with the person um before you actually do it because it could also backfire too, you know. But you've gotta no one else is gonna be able to stand up for you except for you.

[10:52] Gennean Scott: What you said resonates so much with me, is especially when it's like okay, I'm gonna pull you to the side, I'm gonna have a conversation. But those other people who are in the room, you know, when you see it, when you see it and you know it.

[11:08] Darrelle Johnson: Yeah.

[11:09] Gennean Scott: And I feel like sometimes they don't know what to do or what to say. It's like they want to, uh but they don't. One, it's like, okay, if I say something, am I taking away this person's power? I feel like they I feel like sometimes they overthink.

[11:26] Darrelle Johnson: Yeah.

[11:27] Gennean Scott: And it's like, no, I just I need you to support me. You don't need to you don't need to think about it. You know, you you say something in the moment.

[11:36] Darrelle Johnson: Yeah, exactly.

[11:38] Gennean Scott: So what role has like mentorship played in in your career, either you being a mentor or or you know, being mentored?

[11:52] Darrelle Johnson: Yeah, mentorship, I've I've been grateful to have mentors throughout my career. I think over time you start to communication becomes a little bit, you know, less and less. But um I think having someone who you can confide in or talk to outside of your company, maybe even outside of your industry, can really help to bring outside perspective. Um, and they'll be real enough with you to tell you you're you're overreacting or you know what I mean, because they're the outsider listening. Um, so I would encourage anyone who's you know, up and coming or anything like this to I don't want to say find a mentor, but because if for you to for you to f get a mentor, the mentor has to want to mentor you.

Right. Right, right. You know what I mean? Um, and you can't force someone to be your mentor, it just happens organically. Um, like I don't even call my mentors mentors, they just are, you know. Um, but I think that's important to have someone that you that you can confide in from that standpoint. And for me as a mentor, I've had people that have interned for me in the past that I still continue to mentor, different career advice, um uh career moves, sometimes personal. Um, and so for me that's my way of giving back, you know, to to them and giving back to the youngins, if you will. Um, because I was once in their shoes. So yeah.

[13:22] Gennean Scott: Right. So speaking of like being in their shoes, uh, you studied at uh Nova Southeastern University for undergrad.

[13:33] Darrelle Johnson: Yeah.

[13:34] Gennean Scott: How did how did the university prepare you for the role that you're in currently?

[13:42] Darrelle Johnson: I'm so glad that I I that I did that major.

[13:45] Darrelle Johnson: So that major was business administration. I don't know why I picked it or how I ended up in it, but I really don't remember, but I got it. And you know, I'm so grateful for that experience, Gennean, because if I had a major in HR, I don't think I would be where I am today.

[14:03] Gennean Scott: Right.

[14:04] Darrelle Johnson: Um, and I think what that opportunity provided me was really the business acumen that I have right now. So whenever I have a new idea about something, um, or a new project or something that I want to launch or propose, I'm already thinking in the back of my mind, how does this impact the business? What business objective is it going to drive? You know, those kinds of things. So um being able to read a P&L statement, knowing what a general ledger, you know, all of these things that you have to know as a business owner. Um, not a lot of my colleagues in HR have that mindset. Um, and so that's how I think it's allowed me to really be able to understand how like my CFO thinks, you know.

[14:45] Gennean Scott: Yeah, it's about the money, but it's gotta make sense.

[14:48] Darrelle Johnson: Like the numbers gotta tell a story, right?

[14:50] Gennean Scott: Right, right, exactly.

[14:51] Darrelle Johnson: So that's how I think it's really helped me a lot.

[14:53] Gennean Scott: That's awesome. Because there are so many people, and I mean, I think back to when I was in undergrad, what did I major in? I majored in education. You know, how does that inform me to this day? There's so many people who do not necessarily work in the field that they majored in. In addition to that, there are a lot of people who start off, like I started off as a teacher and then I pivoted, you know.

[15:19] Darrelle Johnson: And so it it's good to see and to hear individuals who have to hear those stories of individuals who did those exact same things. Cause I think of being young and trying to navigate and looking at other people, assuming that oh, well, they probably went to college for that. You know, that's why they're working, and that's why they're, you know, the CEO, or that's why they're the vice president.

[15:44] Gennean Scott: So I mean, I think it's good for people to hear and for our audience to hear and for our audience to know that regardless of what you majored in, you can take that, yeah, and use it and take the things that you've learned and use those skills, right?

[16:01] Darrelle Johnson: Right to help you to um to go further in whatever career it is you decide, you know, to pivot to. So I thank you for sharing that and for letting us know because I think I really think it's important.

[16:16] Gennean Scott: Yeah.

[16:17] Darrelle Johnson: And I'll add one more thing too. One of my best bosses was not college educated.

[16:25] Gennean Scott: I love that.

[16:27] Darrelle Johnson: And he made it all the way up to managing director of South Florida for this hotel group that we had worked for. Then he ended up going up to V, I mean, he was literally over the whole state. And he said to himself, he's like, Darrelle, I'm gonna go back to school. I'm like, why? You're the boss. It's like, well, you know, my life wasn't the traditional life. I had kids at a young age, um, I got married at a young age, I had a lot of responsibility, so I had to get to work right away. And so this is what I want to do for myself. Um, so I think this is so interesting to share with people because there's this pressure sometimes that we have to have a certain path and everybody's path is not the same, you know.

[17:13] Gennean Scott: Right.

[17:13] Darrelle Johnson: We can still be successful without, you know, this traditional educational path that has been kind of ingrained in us, you know, since we were kids.

[17:21] Gennean Scott: Yeah.

[17:21] Darrelle Johnson: And yeah, the whole I have to get to work right away.

[17:25] Gennean Scott: Yeah.

[17:25] Darrelle Johnson: That's that story, unfortunately, is a lot of people regardless that has no racial anything. That's that's a story of a lot of folks, especially right now. Given the economy that we're in, people are like, okay, I can't, I can't do this right now.

[17:40] Gennean Scott: Yeah.

[17:41] Darrelle Johnson: But knowing that you could still ascend and to be whatever it is you feel that you've been called to do and you can still be successful. I think that's truly the takeaway.

[17:52] Gennean Scott: Okay, so now you're here. You're here on Broadway. How do you because working with people and working in the area of culture and this intersection that happens daily where you bring yourself as a quote unquote marginalized group to work, and then you are practicing and preaching inclusiveness when you yourself have to also be like I want to be included. How do you how do you juggle that? How do you yeah, how do you juggle that?

[18:27] Darrelle Johnson: I work out a lot. That's my stress relief. I wake up at now the past month, I've been waking up at 5 a.m. and going to the gym. But um yeah, I think you know, stress relief is important, and you gotta spend some time on yourself, whatever that is, and that's what it is for me. That and nature. I think the people that I spend more time talking to about some of their challenges, not just on Broadway, but elsewhere, other internships or wherever, is our intern group, and we have interns here at Jujamcyn, um, maybe about three or four times a year in different departments, and this is really the only group of employees where we have an opportunity to diversify the workforce, right? Because there's almost no turnover at our corporate office and very little turnover in the operation.

[19:23] Gennean Scott: Right.

[19:23] Darrelle Johnson: So um, our goal is really to transition those interns who want to stay, transition them into being permanent employees part-time, whatever. I can't even remember the exact conversation that I had with this person, but I think for me it's difficult to give someone advice about how to navigate as a person of color, especially if you're going through your own struggle. You kind of have to be a little bit crazy to be able to separate your own experience from like, hey, I gotta pull my personal stuff out of this and help this person to get through whatever issue they're getting through. And it can be very tough to do, you know, it can be very tough to do.

[20:14] Gennean Scott: Yeah.

[20:14] Darrelle Johnson: And I think self-reflection is something that I do but I don't do often enough and I would encourage all of us in this work that's doing this work to do it. And sometimes my family makes fun of me for spending time with myself but I think we need to we underestimate the value of doing that. So I don't know if that answered your question.

[20:38] Gennean Scott: But it does because it popped in my head and I'm thinking I just like we do this every day. We bring ourselves you know in these spaces every day and sometimes we are treated like the marginalized.

[20:54] Darrelle Johnson: Yeah.

[20:54] Gennean Scott: And then we have people who are marginalized come to us and they want our guidance and we're like well wait a minute.

[21:01] Darrelle Johnson: Yeah.

[21:02] Gennean Scott: So, you know, just how do we process that?

[21:04] Darrelle Johnson: And so you know you answered it.

[21:06] Gennean Scott: I yeah. It's kind of like it's kind of like the psychologist and the or the therapist and the patient, right?

[21:12] Darrelle Johnson: Yeah.

[21:15] Gennean Scott: That's what it reminds me of because your patient could be talking to you about issues that you're going through yourself. You kind of be gotta be a little crazy to be a therapist because you've got to separate that, right?

[21:26] Darrelle Johnson: Yeah.

[21:26] Gennean Scott: And still help the person with the same issue you're dealing with.

[21:30] Darrelle Johnson: Yeah.

[21:30] Gennean Scott: So yeah, no. So now that you're in this arts realm and um did you grow up liking the arts or is this just totally foreign?

[21:41] Darrelle Johnson: Yeah, no, not totally foreign at all. So um growing up as a kid in Jamaica, my mom took me to almost every performing arts. It's this little it's this theater in Kingston called the literally the little theater. That's what it's called. And we would go there for all kinds of performances, ballets, um, comedy show, you name it. Um then I got into piano, I got into in primary school playing the role of a bird for some play, I don't remember. But I've always loved live performance.

[22:10] Gennean Scott: And um I'm not what people would define as a theater person.

[22:15] Darrelle Johnson: Um I think I might be transitioning into that a little bit. Um because being here is really it's a little nostalgic for me because it brings me back to when I was a kid, right? You know, going to all of these events, and um I feel like I'm re-exploring a part of me that has been kind of severed for a while. I don't know if that makes sense.

[22:38] Gennean Scott: Yeah, it does.

[22:39] Darrelle Johnson: It does. Like I'm going to the ballet more, I'm going to all the, you know, shows, things like this. Any event that we're putting on, um, that the league puts on, anything like this, I like to be a part of it because I like that environment. You know, there's something different about live performance than going to a movie or you know what I mean?

[22:57] Gennean Scott: You know what I'm talking about.

[22:58] Darrelle Johnson: Yeah.

[22:59] Gennean Scott: Yes. I tell people all the time, I'm like, I don't want to go to a movie. I like theater. I like the live, I like the liveness. I like the feeling like I can touch the people.

[23:10] Darrelle Johnson: Exactly.

[23:11] Gennean Scott: You know, I yeah, no, I definitely enjoy live theater over um, you know, the movie theater.

[23:18] Darrelle Johnson: Yeah. What do you think is some of the most important traits or skills that an individual needs in order to be successful in this area of work?

[23:28] Darrelle Johnson: I think even we're all leaders in our roles, right? But we can't forget that we're also we should still be a student, have the mindset of a student that we're always learning and we we don't know everything. Like it's okay to not know everything, right?

[23:45] Gennean Scott: Right, because then that just it just creates, I think, more issues.

[23:48] Darrelle Johnson: Um, so having that constant learning mindset, um, I think also being curious and constantly being curious about how things work, how people work, um, how the business works is also really critical. Um, because if you don't understand how the business works, it puts you at a really, really big disadvantage. I'm still learning the business myself as of 11:28 a.m. today on August 25th. I'm still learning a lot of stuff about this industry that I thought I knew. But I'm like, oh shit, all right, I didn't know that that well.

[24:23] Gennean Scott: Um, so I think that's one part of it. And I would say also don't limit yourself to just your own little circle, like expand outside of that. You know, there's so many great resources, for example, through the league, and um and even you know, groups that support um underrepresented groups and things like that. I would say don't limit yourself to those groups, you should be a part of them, but also look outside of those groups as well because you'd be surprised what you can learn about yourself, about what you could do with your in your career, and um I think people will be pleasantly surprised if they take that approach.

[25:05] Gennean Scott: 100%.

[25:07] Darrelle Johnson: I agree. And also don't take anything personal.

[25:10] Gennean Scott: Yes, you know, the other thing that I think about too is understanding, um trying to understand um different behaviors, right?

[25:22] Darrelle Johnson: Um, and how to interact with those different types of behaviors and and personalities. I think that goes hand in hand with not taking things personally.

[25:31] Gennean Scott: Um that's a big a big one. I think that's why so many of our colleagues and coworkers, known and unknown, fizzle out so fast.

[25:42] Darrelle Johnson: Yeah, yep.

[25:45] Gennean Scott: It's just the job. I'm like, you know what?

[25:49] Darrelle Johnson: Yeah.

[25:51] Gennean Scott: So now my final question.

[25:53] Darrelle Johnson: Yeah.

[25:54] Gennean Scott: What is one piece of advice that you'd like to share with the black future leaders of Broadway?

[26:03] Darrelle Johnson: Well, I'm probably gonna the the one I said earlier about don't limit yourself for sure. The second part would be don't wait for opportunities to come to you. You've got to go out there and search for it.

[26:13] Gennean Scott: Yes.

[26:17] Darrelle Johnson: Um, and going back to my point about being curious, a lot of what I've learned about this industry. Surprisingly, I learned from just surfing on Instagram, and I find a lot of stuff out that way. Some of these organizations that we work with, literally, I'm just going, oh, BTU, they're gonna they're having a gala. Perfect. I need to tell Janine about this. You know, things like this. So no one don't expect anyone to hand anything to you. You've got to go out there and get it, and you've got to find it, you know.

[26:48] Gennean Scott: Um, that's my my biggest advice.

[26:50] Darrelle Johnson: Yeah, go get it.

[26:51] Gennean Scott: I like it. Thank you so much.

[26:53] Darrelle Johnson: Uh thanks for having me, Gennean.

[26:55] Gennean Scott: No problem. I want to thank our guests and you, our listeners. You could have been doing anything else, but you chose to spend your time with me, and I am grateful. Be sure to subscribe at bpn.fm slash bbd.

[27:12] Gennean Scott: So you'll never miss an episode. While you're at it, tell a friend. I'm your host, Gennean Scott, and we at the Broadway League hope you enjoyed this episode of the Black Business of Broadway.