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[0:15] Mike Abrams: Welcome to The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of The Cat Sash V. I'm your host Mike Abrams and today we have a very exciting guest. She is an actress and activist who has been a vocal supporter of Cats The Jellicle Ball. I've been a fan of hers for a while, and I am thrilled to talk Cats with her. So welcome sis thee doll.

[0:30] sis thee doll: Thank you for joining me.

[0:34] Mike Abrams: Thank you. I'm happy to be here. I'm excited because I know I started actually really learning more a couple years ago about what you do and everything from you because of the Jellicle Ball because, oh, I think we were at a performance kind of the same time. And then I know I started seeing the posts from you and then I got, you know, I started following along with all the stuff you're doing and I was like this is great. And then we saw each other at the media day, so I'm pumped to talk about Cats The Jellicle Ball. But I actually want to start before the Jellicle Ball because were you a Cats fan before this or did you like? What was your Cats history before the 2024 pack version?

[1:11] sis thee doll: Yeah, I am a Cats stan. I think Cats is definitely like top five favorite musicals for sure. I'm trying to think, okay, what is the first thing? The first thing, and it's funny because me and Jalen have talked about this before, but so Barney's Great Adventure, which was like Barney's film, like the one Barney movie that was in theaters, etc., etc. So that VHS and DVD, I guess for the people who watch it on DVD, has the Cats movie, not movie, but you know, the Cats trailer. And yes, it really just got me as a kid. And so whenever I would watch Barney's Great Adventure, and I wonder if there's another Barney movie that I'm also a Barney stan, so that's another thing, but I wonder if there's another movie that it's on.

But I would always watch it over and over again. And one part specifically was Rum Tum Tugger. In my personal mind, I'm like, I think that was my sexual awakening. But yeah, so that trailer would just, like, I was just stunned every time I watched it and it was, I was just like, oh my gosh. And I think me and my mom would go to the library all the time, and I think I might have gotten Cats from the library. Maybe, I don't know if I did then or much later, but I do remember another time, this was like fast forward to me being in high school, maybe like ninth grade. I was like, and I was like, what song is this? Because it was just like time, and this was, I think, the summer of my musical theater awakening.

And I was like, what song is that? And I think Google had just come out with that thing where you could like sing into it. Yeah, so I finally, after hours, I finally found Rum Tum Tugger again. Until then, I dove, you know, in. But there were also just moments like college, everybody I went to college with loved Cats, and that was also how we could connect to the dancers and stuff. And in 2016, and I think 2016 was the other revival, but 2017 was when I had come that summer to New York when I was in college and I saw that production, and I was just like, oh my god, I loved it. I loved it. And that was my first time seeing it live on stage, and that was just, I still remember how I felt, and I remember being there to this day because it was just a beautiful show, and I love Cats.

And throughout my whole life, everybody was always like, oh, Cats, oh, Cats, like it doesn't make sense. I remember my theater teacher hated Cats. And then, oh my god, I'm blinking. Also, my biggest connection to Cats, which is like the craziest thing, so I did speech and debate growing up in high school, and there, Feast and Bait was like really big. So I did poetry, and so I friendled at state with Cats, The Old Possum's Book of Practical Cats by T.S. Eliot. I picked out the poems that I liked and I put them in a poetry book, and I was final at state, and I had all the different characters to these Cats, and that is like not one of my biggest moments in high school because it's like, what the heck?

But yeah, so I'm a Cats stan. I love that. I saw the 2019 version in theaters. It was like in the middle of the night. I don't remember liking it or hating it. I think I just felt indifferent. But yeah, so that is the catch-up. That's the Cats-up.

[4:55] Mike Abrams: That is fantastic. So you were, I love that you got to talk to Jalen about that because he also mentioned the Barney thing to me, and I had not seen that. I didn't know that, and so that's a really fun connection. And that's like, that's what got you into it and then humming it for early Google.

[5:11] sis thee doll: Yeah, it's like this is like the Shazam of it, of being able to ask the song. But that's what you piece together. Like, I don't know where, why it's like a man.

[5:19] Mike Abrams: Yeah, but and then you saw the first thing. So are you like, how familiar as watching it as, you know, growing up and then going to see the 2016 revival, which was different choreography? So I've learned this over the years, but with Andy Blankenbuehler, is that something to you that you even kind of like picked up on the differences or more of it just like this is still Cats? It's your first time seeing it on stage. You're just loving every minute of it.

[5:41] sis thee doll: I wonder how invested I was in that part. When I was in college, I was so anti-movement and choreography, so probably not that invested. I did notice differences in the show and like that I noticed what was new about it and then what was, you know, classic about the recording. And then as of late, I know I can tell the difference between the original London recording and then the original Broadway recording. So now I know the difference between those because they're so different. But not necessarily the choreography, no.

[6:07] Mike Abrams: Okay.

[6:08] sis thee doll: I mean, me neither. Yeah, you couldn't have told me the difference. I'm not a dancer or singer or performer.

[6:12] Mike Abrams: But so, okay, so then I want to fast-forward now to the Jellicle Ball because when did you first get wind of it? Because I'll give you just from my experience, I learned about the idea of it from the, they had the posting for casting, and it went a little not viral, viral. Like enough people started talking about, hey, there's this kind of different posting of Cats because, you know, at that point nobody knew what it was. And so it was just a reading, and they were just having people come through. And I think it was a four-plus year journey, and then obviously it's announced to come to the pack and come to the promenade. Where in that four years did you first hear about it?

[7:10] sis thee doll: Oh, you saying that like is jogging my memory. I remember talking to a friend about it because he was like, I wanted to do the music for it. This is one of my friends who was in Cats, and he was like, I wanted to do music for it, or he like pitched to do the music for it, something like that. And I remember maybe, because I'm trying to think about like was this around in 2019? Because the 2019, 2020, 2021 part of the industry is weird. But I want to say I heard of something of there being a Cats revival and it involving ballroom early on. Like I remember that, but when I knew it was happening was the summer of 2020 because that's when I auditioned for it. So like that's what I can remember.

[8:05] Mike Abrams: Okay.

[8:06] sis thee doll: So you, you're, you know, I mean, you're so connected in the theater community and everything you're doing, so you've got friends that have done Cats.

[8:12] Mike Abrams: Yeah, you're right. In 2019 it was on tour.

[8:15] sis thee doll: Yeah, it finished Broadway and it was on tour in the United States, and that ended obviously in 2020 during COVID. They paused. I actually somewhere have a ticket to stop in April of 2020. I was gonna go. They actually mailed the ticket still, and I was gonna go for it, but obviously that performance did not happen. And then you audition for me. So talk about the audition process there.

[8:40] sis thee doll: It was not a process. It was not a process. This is like so early on. This was for one of the workshops that we're doing that summer, and I was, another thing that I'm remembering is we, I was in the National Tour of Oklahoma, and there was, I think, I don't know if it wasn't the non-equity tour, like the first time it was going out non-equity or like the revamp or whatever. We were touring Cats at the same time. I do remember that, yeah, because my friend Taylor was Isabella. I remember that. But anyway, so yeah, it wasn't a process. It was literally like I got an audition submission for an audition for Cats or this thing from on my birthday, and I remember filming, you know, my birthday, and I was so mad because it was for Mungo Jerry or Rumpleteazer.

It was for one of them, and I was like, I'm not gonna play this role. Like I'm not a dancer. Yeah, and so I knew I was like, oh my god, we're gonna book this. So, so upset. But I sang Memory, but it was the Memory, I think that syllabus sings, and it was just like, it was just that, and that was okay. And I was like at my mom's house, and I was living in Houston at the time because I had finished or, and I moved to LA, and then I moved back to Houston, and so it was a part of my transition time. But yeah, it wasn't a process. It was literally just a 16-bar cut of that Memory.

[10:07] Mike Abrams: Okay. I was the first time. Who would you want to play most as a kid? And like just like in the definitive, I guess version of Cats, quote-unquote, even though I feel like this now is a definitive.

[10:21] sis thee doll: I mean, I guess I saw myself in so many places and parts, but I guess back then I was like all Rum Tum Tugger, so fun because I love that song. But now I think that's not like Munkustrap and Grizabella, like those are the two places in the show I'm like, I see myself.

[10:39] Mike Abrams: Yeah, does that, so that's like, do you have a different thought from the, I don't want to call it traditional, like from the Cats in Cats costumes to the Jellicle Ball because they've redefined a lot of them in the Jellicle Ball just the way they're telling the story.

[10:54] sis thee doll: Which is it still Munkustrap and Grizabella? No, that's our thing now. That's now for them.

[11:00] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[11:01] sis thee doll: Okay. What about in the other Cats, for the other, for the first Cats would probably have been Rum Tum Tugger.

[11:05] Mike Abrams: Tugger, okay. I love it because I love that song so much.

[11:09] sis thee doll: Okay, so now you've obviously seen the 2016 revival. You are a Cats stan. You're convincing haters to come see it. Tell me the first time you went to the pack to experience that.

[11:18] sis thee doll: The first time I went to the pack was Juneteenth 2024, and I think that was when it was in previews. I don't remember which, I think it was like early previews, like maybe like first week or whatever. But yeah, that was the first time I went to the pack, and I'm so excited about it because I love Cats. And my biggest goal and my biggest dream for this industry was the crossover of trans women, specifically Black trans women, and like the fight of how can we have a place and find a place in this space? Because I felt like there was so, being a trans person in this industry for the past, I guess, 2036, seven, eight years now, not feeling like there was room and not feeling like there was a guide, you know, to go off of. I felt like it was finally something that came to fruition for me of like, oh my gosh, I'm about to go to the theater and see trans women on stage and also in my favorite show, you know?

[12:32] Mike Abrams: Yeah, and in one of the most key parts of the show.

[12:37] sis thee doll: Yeah, I mean like the major, it's an ensemble show, like a title character with a key song, and you know, in Tempest isn't incredible and does an amazing job with it. So yeah, there's such a level of representation that the show brings to not just like to trans women, to the ballroom community, to a lot of underrepresented communities. That is really, really special.

[12:59] Mike Abrams: Yeah, and spectacular. And I love, like one of my favorite parts of the show, and I say this knowing that I get a little, sometimes a little bit hated this because it's one of my least favorite parts of the other. And when you do it, I don't really love Moments of Happiness. It's never been my favorite song.

[13:10] sis thee doll: Alley, know the right to start act two beginning.

[13:15] Mike Abrams: Okay. I've never loved that song. I think it's a very slow intro and act two, and it's like kind of old dude around me singing, you know, a way to come back. But doing it the way they do it in this production and the way they did the pack, and then obviously we saw, we saw an early preview, so I'm assuming they're gonna be making adjustments, but they're still shining a light on the ballroom community in a way that makes that song way better.

[13:43] sis thee doll: More powerful. And so it's like they've like even that is representation and history and like I as someone who thankfully I learned a lot of the ballroom community by doing these podcasts and by the show but I went home with more interest in learning more. And I think that that's a really cool part about the Jellicle Ball is it is shining a light on a space that you know doesn't necessarily always get it. There's Paris is Burning and a couple like a little bit more mainstream version of it but this is another mainstream avenue for it to be able to share a story. Yeah yes I think that part is very beautiful. I love it. Um yeah. Yeah. Do you have any more? I was trying to think about I'm trying to think about it and try to invoke feelings.

I love moments of happiness but I love Gus's The Theater Cat better because I think that Junior sitting there and and saying all of those things does for me I think what because I know the ballroom I you know what I mean um my eye is different to it but yeah I think the where the intersection really happens for me is when Junior says um I knew how to gag and Junior says the theater is certainly not what it was like that story that Junior is telling that is what like takes me.

[15:17] sis thee doll: Yeah I so as I was watching the first preview uh again and you know I've obviously seen Cats a couple many times and seen the Jellicle Ball a couple times the pack and now again it almost floored me because Junior does a really good job of taking the song and the poetry and still having that ballroom flair with it and those like those lines you just said are delivered in a way that like calls to the ballroom piece but it's also like these are poems from the 30s and like it's kind of amazing that it is able to transcend some of that and be able to be delivered in that way and still have that powerful experience when it's something that was definitely not written with this in mind.

[15:56] sis thee doll: Yeah but you know I think that I think that's where people kind of get it confused because art builds on top of itself and history builds on top of itself and ballroom and commentating and all of that really I think shining as we know it today in the 80s and the 90s that is off like that is from poetry and that is from prose and that is from speeches and all of those things and it's about being heard and so I think it's all the same and it's all one and I think that's the beauty for me of how many intersections the story has to ballroom in theater and how it makes sense and then it's like when I watched it for the first time I like ranted it and I was like I see what you're doing and I was like I can't believe it made that much sense like there's no reason to me it made that much sense but when you think about it you're like yes this is all like all it's all one and I think that's what I was saying earlier just like people and I think my biggest thing as a creative is like I really care about relatability and as a director and as somebody that like just enjoys creating like I really want everybody to just to see our like commonalities and I think that's what I love so much about this production and the show is it's painting it all in a light showcasing that this is all one it's all one thing like I am not different from you you are not different from me we might color it differently but it's all the same.

[17:37] sis thee doll: Yeah I think that's also too a part of where like in the cats and cats costumes it's like there's kind of always a joke that it's like cats are they're just cats at the end of the day like yeah like there's a there's personalities and their family and everything but they're also cats and I was nervous at this in the beginning mostly just because I just it was so so foreign and different at the time like it just didn't like my brain couldn't really figure out what they were going to do and then I walked out of the first preview I saw going like this just removed all cats haters hate by eliminating the two biggest pain points I've always heard about cats which is it's a little strange because they're in cats costumes and the story doesn't make sense which I actually firmly disagree with but I do understand how it's confusing the first time you see it yeah like it's it's kind of hard to piece together what's happening unless you know it this eliminated both of those things they are in incredible queen jean costumes they are not in cats costumes they are in incredible costumes and the the broadway one is even more spectacular I mean they made some really cool updates and kudos to queen jean um and then it it's a clear story yeah like it's a very clear by adding the contests and the runway and like and walking the runway and all the different like pieces it tells you a much clearer story of grizabella's arc and all the different character arcs and all the different things and how they relate and so I converted a lot of cats haters with the gelko ball okay because it was I was able to say like go like even if you hate it unless you hate the music which is rarely yeah the music is fire yeah but that's usually not it it's usually a story and I'm like go watch this and tell me and I the amount of people that walked out of the gelko ball and said I get it or at least I understand it they there's I've not heard any bad pieces of the gelko ball and so I love it because it's bringing a different light to cats while also bringing a different light to other things like you said like the the just that we're all seeing this from a slightly different light but we're all seeing the same kind of thing which I love.

[19:41] sis thee doll: Yeah I you know it's interesting I I never felt I never didn't know what was going on which is interesting like where your cats stay right you get it I know but I'm just like I never felt like I felt like anybody could I also you had a reading the book and like having that and knowing it but also if you don't get it it's it's just a myriad of of stories a myriad of tales about these you know different cats so I don't know um but it's also interesting too because a connection that I made was a lot of the times in ballroom the categories are referred to cats and so it's so interesting when you think about it like that because then it's like there's not even a you don't even have to go deep with the name like yeah it's categories you know like these are the categories you're walking tonight and these are the kind of cats that are you know a part of this story so that that's very interesting too was like oh period like there's literally this production of it is exactly what's on the bank yeah.

[20:44] Mike Abrams: We're gonna take a quick break and then we back for more of The Wrong Cat Died. You were um you obviously did a lot of social media kind of like buzz for it and posted a lot about it and kind of uh in a super fun way did you get any unique replies to it of like any cats haters or any kind of people that didn't get it?

[21:02] sis thee doll: No I think people those people know not to you know not to come to you yeah no I mean a lot of my my platform though like I have such a specific platform I feel like and very rarely do I feel like people engage with my content who don't understand me or don't understand anything I'm pushing or what I'm trying to say so no I that that's so interesting I I wouldn't even know what to say I I kind of ask a little because I do get some oh my gosh okay but it's because my my you know my following is very like it's all cats related and I did you know obviously a lot of people started following along to the show because of the yeah yeah but there are some what I'll call them traditionalists you know like the they're not in cats costume this isn't cat and and I felt like firmly disagree with that I am a believer that this is a a different it's a reimagining yeah of cats but it is like I've told some of the cats fans I know like that the fan fans I know that like you're seeing the same show and a different show and like you will love it because it's the same music it's the same kind of characteristics of the characters that you know exactly but it is a different choreography which I love and you know like in a different way it's just a different it's a different show in the same show at the same time right I believe it's everything a revival should be and I think it's like we're very refreshing and something that theater needs right now and I think something that theater needs to understand and I say theater meaning the people that make decisions and the people that are a part of it and want to be a part of it we need to see how far text can go and I feel like this is something that they were much better with back in the day I feel like as of late revivals and specifically theater has kind of entered this place of like peering down and scaling back instead of also just like looking and seeing and turning the page or turning turning a light to something else and still going as big because this is still broadway to me and that's what I love it's still loud and it's still bombastic and it's still just you know full of just color and light and music and and the waves are incredible it's like there's so much about it that is just iconic that I'm like this is broadway.

[23:29] sis thee doll: You know the other thing that really held up I mean again I saw first preview so I feel like maybe it's a little skewed so I'm hoping to see if it as I go back in a couple weeks um the energy at the pack was was also something that you couldn't match and like I just I there's nothing like that on broadway at the time and and this is it was my biggest fear when you transfer to more of a proscenium view and it wasn't like as it now the way they did it we we had on um rachel was a scenic designer kind of really shared a lot of the vision of behind that and some also the some of the cool things that they did I the energy there were multiple standing ovations people were still clocking their fans behind me the whole time like it was it held that part and it that's just not on broadway anywhere else yeah and I think that no matter what you whatever your experience is you are not going to walk out of there like quiet or tired like you will walk out of there having at least had a good time yeah no matter what you felt about it and I think that's such a unique piece to this on broadway yeah is that you will you will walk out more energized than you walked in.

[25:03] sis thee doll: Yeah I felt it's interesting because I think I think I'm in the five six seven world I want to say six or seven this is my six time six or seven times seeing this specific production um and when I was watching it the other night I was like why am I still emotional like why am I still like why do I have any grand feelings anymore and not because it's not good or incredible but I've seen it six times like I've seen I know what's going to happen and I know how they do it and I also am very close to every single person on this stage and who've created this so I know what's going on but I still feel so strong about it and it's a feeling that I chase and I want more of and I can't wait to go back again um because it's so special and I think that that's just like that's what musical theater does and that's especially when it does it well and I just feel like this this production and I feel like cats does it well as well but you know specifically to this I feel like they've they've taken it for all it's worth and it's pretty beautiful.

[26:46] sis thee doll: Yeah um as as you said you're close with people on stage and you've gotten to know them and you're is that like how is that experience too of of having such relationships and then going to see your friends doing something like this and then also too seeing them like a lot made their first broadway debut and a lot are getting you know a different level of exposure that they probably have not had before in such a positive way.

[27:16] sis thee doll: It's incredible I think this is exactly this is just what I this is what I wanted this is what I fought for it's like my Christmas gift because it's like I when I did the trans march on broadway and that was I think in direct response to Cameron Macintosh who basically was like trans women shouldn't lead musicals or trans women shouldn't lead broadway shows or whatever and at that same time I was about to play 8 0 Annie in the national tour of Oklahoma and I was like this is so damaging because all the time even today to this day I get trans girls who come up to me and they say or they dm me and they say like oh like I'm so proud or happy with what you're able to do or what you're doing in the industry because a long time ago when I be in transition I felt like there wasn't a place for me or a space for me so I left and I stopped so I'm like living like heresy through you and it makes me so sad because I'm like people feel like they have to give up people feel like you know there's not there's not room for them and that was a feeling that I had and I'm not going to give up I'm going to see it through and to be able to see so many dreams manifested.

[27:27] sis thee doll: In this way, it's like period like it's happening, you know, so yeah, it's very special to me and there's so many people in the show that I have so many specific connections with. But I have been so my friend Kaia, who's in this show, she plays etc. I have just been watching her and we did this workshop together of this musical. And just seeing her on that stage, like making her Broadway debut just, it just was like, Oh, God, like, it just it's just incredible what when people get an opportunity to shine like what they do. And there's so many other people in that show that I love it. But I just speak specifically just when I was watching her. And I also felt similarly about Laomi because I've been a family and me for so long.

And I did season three of Pose. I was like a featured background for the whole season. And that was like my first entry into the industry. And that was 2019 and 2020. And getting to watch Laomi like make her Broadway debut in that way was so special and just like, Oh, my God. So I think it's just it's just a beautiful thing. It's a beautiful thing.

[28:46] sis thee doll: Yeah, I, Laomi is the way they wrote the Macavity, like they kind of not change, they tweak the arc to really utilize Laomi is like skill set and story and everything, which I thought was a really, really cool update to what they're doing. But I do want to talk a little bit about your activism, because, you know, there's, you know, you've done a ton of work, you just kind of mentioned a little bit about some of the stuff you're doing for trans women on Broadway and in general, and the show is obviously a piece of that kind of giving a spotlight to it. But what would you, like, what's your recommendation for someone that maybe is listening to this that is less familiar or, you know, wants to be an ally and maybe isn't in New York or has some of these ways to help? What's what's kind of some recommendations on like, what's the best thing for that person to do or to help?

[29:36] sis thee doll: Um, I mean, I think it's, it's, it's, it's a hard, it's a broad question. I think that, I think that things have to be on your heart, right? Your things have to be, your interests have to be there, and your, you know, desires have to be in the place of, if you are so, like, if you're a person that wants to support the art, and you're like, wow, there's so many trans people in this industry that are doing things, you know, if that's your, if that's the person I'm talking to, then I would say, like, you know, support them. Like, I don't know how else to say, you know, like, everybody's doing stuff. Like, there's so many trans people in the industry, and there's so many, um, things happening that are featuring and involve trans women right now.

And I also want to say, like, I am avid for all trans people, I don't want anybody, non-binary people or the boys to be mad at me, but, uh, just speaking civic to my experience and those of, like, my girlfriends in the industry. But, um, there's so much, and I think this year, I know this year, this is the, probably the most trans women, specifically, that are going to be on Broadway in a whole season. And I'm like, I don't even know, I'm trying to figure out how to celebrate that. Like, we have Laomie, we have Garnet, we have B-Noel, we have Tempress, we have, uh, Kaya, we have, that's, I think that's Katz, am I missing, I wonder if I'm missing anybody from Katz, then Dylan's in six, and then we have Michaela J. and Ananiah in, uh, Rocky Horror.

I'm trying to think of any other, um, I, is that lady still in O'Mary? I don't know her name, but there's like so many people on Broadway right now, um, that are, you know, trans. And so that, the needle is being pushed. And I think that what I love too, is it's not being done in a way of, like, specificity. And that's what I wanted to get, get away from. And I think, you know, we have to, everybody had to learn that from 2020, of just, like, not doing stuff just because you felt like, oh, I just need to do this to do it. But just people being talented enough, and it being a moment enough to just make it happen. So, I think if you just, I think, support the arts, and find those trans creatives that you want to support, and invest in them, and, you know, speak of them, I think that it's very interesting too, just like, like, going back to the conversation of relatability, everybody is going to support what they can relate to, or see themselves in.

And I think it's very important to shift gears, and invest in, and talk about, and speak of other creatives that aren't white, and aren't cisgender, and aren't, you know, um, you know, like, just, like, there's other people doing things. So, that, that's what I have to say.

[32:19] sis thee doll: I love the idea of, like, support what you love, and, like, put it, find it in your heart, and being able to find the ways, because there's, there are a lot of cool things happening, and good things happening, and it's being able to shine a light on, on all of it, and finding, you know, like, not narrowing in on one or the other. But, um, yeah, I think it's such a really cool way to think, to think about it. And, like you said, the, like, the representation of having, and seeing people on Broadway, on the stage, and in these roles that historically maybe they weren't in, is the way the next generation sees that they could do it, too, which is also, which is so important.

[33:37] sis thee doll: Yeah, and, and it's also just, like, like, for example, like, you know, Tempest, who's freaking incredible, I love her, she's a sister. Um, you know, Tempest could have been in the original version of it, you know what I mean? Like, Grizabella, like, Lilia's White was Grizabella, Nicole Scherzing, like, there's so many people who have been Grizabella in that production. So, it's kind of, like, also just, I'm very big on not making things a thing when it's like, this is also normal. It's just a woman playing, you know, in this way, in this story, we are able to very, you know, hone in and very specifically tell this specific story that she can relate to so much. But also, she would have been incredible in 2016, you know what I mean?

So, yeah, I think it's also, for me, I'm like, well, I wish people could just open their eyes a little bit more, you know, and just get an idea a little bit better. Because there's all of these things that are happening, like, ballroom is a form of dance, voguing is a form of dance. So, these are dancers doing a form of dance that they are specifically, they're emphasized in, you know what I mean? So, it's just like, I'm sure there's not, not, nary person on that stage can't do the original version, you know what I mean? So, I just say, I'll just say, it's like, everybody is capable, but I'm happy that this production is able to shine a light on the talent and what is happening in my community and our greater community, because we're all here together.

[34:26] sis thee doll: Yeah. Yeah, the dance, you'll walk out, like, floored by what they're doing, even though it might be, like you said, it's not what, it's a style, it's a different, it's a style that's different than what the original Jillian Lynn choreography is, but there are more, they put a lot of, like, work to keep some of that Jillian Lynn and Annie Blakey Bjorn, like, the Cats parts too, in there as well. So, it's a, it's a really cool mix and, and, I mean, they're, Baby and Primo and Deva are, like, just incredible dancers. Silk, like, does stuff that I can't even fathom. And so, it's cool. I, I, I'm so excited for more people to get to see it.

[34:57] sis thee doll: So, I want to, I want to hear, what is your pitch? I want you to do two pitches. One to the Cats stans that are out there that maybe are a little worried about seeing a different version, and then to somebody that knows nothing about Cats. What's the pitch for the Jolka Ball?

[35:15] sis thee doll: I think if you're a real Cats fan, then you are very fake if you decide not to see this show. That's my, my, my plea to the people who know the show. And then for people who don't know the show, I think that come, if you, I think there's a lot of fluff on Broadway right now. I don't think there's a lot of stuff that's unfortunately. And I think Cats the Jolka Ball is a show that the whole family can really love. I guess maybe there's some moments. 12 and up, 12 and up is the recommended. There's some moments, you know, with Rum Tum Tugger that do go, go there. But there's a lot of Tugger. There's a lot of Rum Tum Tugger. You know what I mean? But there's, but, but outside of that, I feel like there's so many people that can walk away and see themselves in this show.

And I think it's also just fun, and I think it's exciting. And I think it's just money well spent, um, to come see the show. And, and, you know, I think you'll leave feeling some type of way. I've seen it six or seven times and I feel very emotional, you know? So I think that this is a show for everybody.

[36:27] sis thee doll: Yeah. I agree with everything. I like that. I like that. If you're, if you're a Cats fan and you won't see it, fake, fake fan.

[36:34] Mike Abrams: Well, you know, cause it's like, what's your, what is your favorite? What's your favorite part of Cats?

[36:43] sis thee doll: My favorite part. I, I, there's so many, I think I, I messaged Emma after cause I forgot. I sent her a note. She plays Cassandra and Skimbleshanks. I love, I love the updated, updated Skimbleshanks to add some Spanish, um, singing to it and the MTA feel like it's just straight New York. Um, but I forgot how chaotically, like it, the chaotic energy that she brings to Cassandra is so fun. So I like, I love her moments. I think the stuff Silk does is so spectacular. I love the Mungo, Jerry and Rumple teaser version. Um, the, the whole thing, like, I love that they put also in the playbill that they're from Victoria Grove, New Jersey. I don't know if you saw that, but like there, there's just such a really good kind of piece.

Um, I thought the way Baby did the Victoria solo was really cool. Um, there's just, there's so much. And it's like, and I'm someone who knows the Cats, like Cats, like the, the 2016 is when I saw it first, but the 1998 movie. And I love that I get the overture and I get all these different pieces and I get a slightly different story and I get like Bus for Jones. Who's pretty, pretty gets a lot of hate in the, in the other Cats version. Cause it's just kind of a random song mixed in. It's been defended by a few Bustafors, but Nora's version's awesome. And like adds a lot more layers to the character, um, and has stuff that's happening throughout, like the bartending and the things like there's more to Bustafor there than I get in the other productions.

Um, so I just think the way they do everything and then they use Ken really well in, um, Ken Art, who's, you know, original Broadway. They brought Ken in to do some really cool stuff as a DJ, but also dance and bring other stuff. Leomi's parts are really cool as McAvity. It was, you can't beat Under the Shield singing some of these songs, like, and, uh, and then Dudney's and the, the, the ending too, of the way Dudney does the bows is like nothing you get on Broadway. And so I just, I could go through everybody and probably list something. I, I was like, I love, still love taking photos and kind of bringing that very, um, innocent, um, idea. Like, I, I just love everything about this thing. And I love that it's bringing so many cats haters around doing something with a different with while being exactly the same.

Um, and really just like the energy, you can't beat the energy in that room. And I've now, this will be, I've seen it now four times, probably when this comes out, I'll probably have seen at least a fifth, maybe sixth time. Every time I've seen it, I've walked out with such like energy and hype and like heart and I can't fall asleep. Like I just, I am so energized by the production and everything that happens. And I think if nothing else, like at the pack, I sat with some people that I was, you know, I, I asked them, I'm like, Hey, how'd you decide to see this? And they were like, we've just heard it's incredible and it's super fun and great energy. And that's, and then they knew nothing else.

And I was kind of like, you know, I've seen a couple of things like, I won't say which shows where I was like, I don't know if this audience is going to get this humor or this show or, you know, like, or understand what they're seeing. And, and I've seen people walk out, especially like when I'm doing regional productions in Indiana, these season ticket holders, they don't give everything a fair shot. Like they're out. I know that to be sure. Um, and I've, I've never seen that happen in this. Like everybody walks out with energy and you might have your critiques or your things that you like, like everyone does. Uh, but I think the vast majority come out and have such positive things to say about the show and recommend it to everyone they've ever seen.

And I think that's a very cool piece. And like, I'm obviously a cat stand and not a, you know, I'm, I'm not an unbiased opinion on this, but I have some unbiased cats haters that walked out and said, that was worth it. Or that was super fun or really cool. Or I learned something I didn't know, or I'm more interested in learning about ballroom because I didn't, you know, they didn't know as much about it. And that's unique to me. Um, and like you said, there's a lot of stuff on Broadway that doesn't bring that. It doesn't mean they're not good and all done and talented people, but this, this does. And I hope it's rewarded and people see that and people go and get to experience and it runs for a while.

[41:01] sis thee doll: I hope so too. I think that the fact that it's even happening is, is, is it, you know, I feel like that is a Testament to where we are.

[41:11] sis thee doll: And I want so much for a cast of Jellicle Ball, but I also just want so much for everybody that has a dream to be a part of this industry and everybody that has been cast out. And like, that's literally what Ballroom is about, is people who have been cast out having an opportunity and a moment to shine and be the Jellicle choice. So I'm glad that this is opening doors and I just want to see so much more of this, you know, and so much more of these people decorating this industry.

[41:49] Mike Abrams: We're gonna take a quick break and then we'll be back for more of The Wrong Cat Died. Well, that's a great way to pivot to some rapid fire.

[41:53] Mike Abrams: Okay. Let's go into, these are all cats related. You can answer either as your Barney cats or as the Jellicle Ball. So I'll let you either answer either way. So if you could go on for one night, I think you've kind of already answered this, but one night, who do you want to play?

[42:06] sis thee doll: Oh, it would be Grizabella. I can do it. Grizabella, I think that would be the easiest, less stress, but like, I would feel the most rewarded with a MonkaStrap moment. I feel like that I would be able to showcase all my talents.

[42:27] Mike Abrams: Okay, okay. Who are your favorite and least favorite cats from a personality wise? Like if you were hanging out with them, which one would bug you and which one would you love to spend time with?

[42:36] sis thee doll: I'd love to spend time with Rum Tum Tugger, and that could be in the cat's costume, or that could be Sidney, it doesn't matter. I usually say take the performers out because I'm like, which one don't you like? So it's like, no, I'm talking about like which character personality would bug you.

[42:52] sis thee doll: Oh my gosh, I love Jonathan and Dave was so bad. I love those people so bad. Those are very close friends of mine. I love them dearly. But I think, I'm like, I'm like a terrible teaser. I'm like, ah. They'd bug you a little bit, a little too mischievous.

[43:10] Mike Abrams: Okay, okay. Favorite song in cats?

[43:12] sis thee doll: Oh my gosh, it's so hard. Oh my gosh, Skimbleshanks is incredible. Skimbleshanks in any version is incredible. I love, I love the way Emma did it at PAC. I love the way Emma does it now. I love, I just love Skimbleshanks. That is one of my favorite songs. I love Skimbleshanks. I love Rum Tum Tugger. I love Old Deuteronomy. That's a beautiful song. I love, I love Shireen's version and I also love Bryce's version of Gusta Theatre Cat. It's so beautiful. I also really like Brown Tiger's Last Stand but nobody really knows anything about that. And that's like a 10 minute song. But I do enjoy that moment. I'm probably missing some, but oh my God. Yeah, I really love this song.

[44:00] Mike Abrams: I mean, you basically named the album.

[44:01] sis thee doll: Right, right. You just love it all, it's great.

[44:05] Mike Abrams: Okay, I always ask one fun one. And have you been, you didn't get to, did you get to do the guest judging at the PAC?

[44:10] sis thee doll: No, not at the PAC.

[44:11] Mike Abrams: Okay, are you, like if you get to guest judge, which now I'm gonna start this petition to get you on as a guest judge.

[44:17] sis thee doll: Please, please. Because you did get to do it at the meeting.

[44:19] sis thee doll: Yes, yes, yes, yes. What would be like, how would you, is there anybody you would chop or not chop that you're not supposed to?

[44:26] sis thee doll: I'd chop Mozambique's rumpled teeth even though they do get chopped. I'd chop them. Who else did I chop? Who else did I chop? I don't know, I don't think there's anybody else I'd chop. I don't think there's anybody else that I'd chop.

[44:44] sis thee doll: Okay, okay. This is gonna sound like I have a vendetta against them, but I don't, I don't. I have a very good reason. When I was in high school, me and this girl had to do this like, musical theater showcase in class. And this was this girl that didn't really do theater and didn't take it seriously. And so I was like, let's just do Mungojerrie Rumpled Teaser. And the day we had to perform it, she did not know her stuff. So I am just anti-Mungojerrie Rumpled Teaser.

[45:10] Mike Abrams: Anyways, back to the question.

[45:12] sis thee doll: I love that that's, you've got, you can pinpoint the exact moment that your hate for these two, not hate, but the, that this is really where you, you dislike them is one school moment.

[45:23] sis thee doll: Yes.

[45:24] Mike Abrams: So, okay, that's fair. Which house would you be in between all the houses in the show?

[45:31] sis thee doll: Yes, House of Glamour.

[45:32] Mike Abrams: House of Glamour.

[45:34] sis thee doll: House of Glamour.

[45:34] Mike Abrams: Okay. And then this entire podcast centered on the, me believing that the wrong Jellicle choice was made in the 2016 version I saw. So I want to know who is your Jellicle choice and why, and you can give me two different answers if you want to give me, now I'm gonna keep calling it the Barney Cats, Barney Cats or the Jellicle Ball, because I do think the Jellicle Ball personally does a better job of giving the Grizabella story.

[45:57] sis thee doll: Yeah, I felt like that. And then when I listened to the reason for your podcast, I was like, yeah, this production isn't really great for this podcast.

[46:07] Mike Abrams: No, it's very bad for my podcast.

[46:08] sis thee doll: I mean, the Jellicle choice is, you know, grand prize. And I think that Grizabella and especially the way it's done in this production, I think she's a cat that has been through it. Like she knows, I think Gus doesn't need that. He's not ready yet. I think Gus is still teaching and telling the kids how it is. But I think that Grizabella is the Jellicle choice. I think she's done her time. She's done her gig and she's done her thing. And I think forever, she is the ultimate Jellicle choice.

[46:46] sis thee doll: So I think this production, I remember when I first saw it, I went up to Bill and Jalen after, and I was like, I think y'all ruined my show. Because my argument against Grizabella, you know, besides the joke I made in the beginning was really centers around, I don't think that she's ready to die and that she should spend time, like she should be welcomed back for the redemption and spend time with her family. And this doesn't tell a death story. It tells a going back, you know, like back into, you know, being accepted back into the ballroom or being back into the limelight, to being a light shined on what they are capable of. And so I'm like, this kind of, it's a different ending. It's a different story.

[47:29] sis thee doll: And so I do agree with it in that sense. But then I kind of jokingly said, you know what, a lot of people win in this show though. So it's not just Grizabella winning.

[47:39] Mike Abrams: So we've got a lot of trophies and victories.

[47:41] sis thee doll: Exactly. You know what I miss though, that I don't think this production is gonna be able to do is I miss when Grizabella would walk up the stairs and she opened the door and you could hear like the outside of New York. I thought that was so fricking funny, but now it's like different. Cause she like goes up the stairs and ascends in a different way. I'm curious if they'll be able to figure that out. Cause I do like, I like the sound. Cause it also, again, doesn't make it feel like death. It feels like it's going back into the world. But I also, where I was sitting for the first preview, I couldn't see the top of the stairs cause it was overhanging a little bit. And so I wasn't sure how she actually went out.

And so I'm like, I'm gonna at some point I'm gonna be sitting on stairs. I think what I remember is I think, I also, I was not gonna tell her that. I was like, maybe you can pop up those stairs. But like you, I think once she clears it, it starts going up again. I don't think you really see specifically what's happening, but yeah.

[48:40] sis thee doll: I was really impressed with that. Cause I didn't, it was one of the things that was like kept a secret. And so it was very shocking to see it. Cause I was waiting and I kept actually looking for a while at the back wall and be like, is there a door somewhere over there? Like, are there even stairs over there? Like, how are they going to do this? And then I kind of was a little floored when the, I don't want to spoil it, but when they, when the stairs, the way it happened, I guess we're spoiling it. Go see it. But the way that there's stairs, there's this, there are steps to the Heaviside Lair in a very unique way.

[49:11] sis thee doll: You know what else I really loved? I think there's two moments of this specifically, but I love that when she's going up the stairs, Laomi, Garnet, and Kaya are standing together and they'll do the Transylvanian in the show. And then I also love when Laomi and Ken are singing together because if I remember correctly, that's just Macavity specifically. And now they brought both of them on it. And I think that's, oh, it's so beautiful. It is something that if the more times you see it, and it's so clear that this creative team spent so much, put so much really, really quality thought and time into all of those moments. And those are all very intentional. And I love that they have like Joseph Kearns, who knows cats and like, is it, you know, on the team and bringing through all these different pieces so that you can still, again, stay true to cats, but add all those elements that also bring in, even the casting announcement, didn't just say, here's the cats. It is, here's the ballroom, here's the theater. Like they broke it out into the way that they went about this. And it's so intentional.

[50:22] sis thee doll: And I think it's like, every time I see the show, every time I saw it at the pack, I picked up something else that I'm like, oh, that was really smart. Or that was a really clear decision that helps. And especially when it thinks like it helps with the story. Because like one thing is with Laomi is, the Macavity storyline is very different in this production than it is in the other Barney production because that Macavity is very bad and like is breaking all the laws. Whereas this Macavity is part of this community, part of the family, and Old Deuteronomy is not being kidnapped per se. Old Deuteronomy is saying, I'm gonna cover for you as Macavity. And I love that change. Cause I thought it was much more of like, the Macavity story was so, it could be so, so evil. But you know what? And this is not evil.

[51:11] sis thee doll: I also think it's also, and this is a little woo-woo, but I think it's dependent on perception. Because when you say bad, right? And you can look at it in a multitude of ways. And when you say, you said bad in something else. But like, when you think of like bad and mischievous and all of these things, like in ballroom and in our world, those words are like, period. And they're like, that is fine. But in this world, it's like, oh, you're a thief and you're this and this and this. Whereas like in ballroom, when you mop clothes for a set, like that's, you're going for your effect. You're going for your ultimate look. And like, we have no other choice but to stand because you did what you needed to do. Whereas in the other world, it's like, that's terrible. You're doing bad stuff. But I think it's also on perception. And I think that's the beauty of how this production just kind of shifts the lens, you know, of like, it's all in the eye of who's taking in the art.

[52:08] Mike Abrams: So yeah, it's interesting. So I just don't feel like, I don't feel like it's that different. You know, I feel like it's the same. It's just how you're looking at it.

[52:18] sis thee doll: It is so true. And that's, I mean, like a lot of the, for me, a lot of my original kind of like parody and jokes of this were stemmed from like a certain line in the poetry or in the lyrics that I kind of ran with. And like that happened a couple of times where it didn't get me in trouble, but kind of like jokingly, like Macavity breaking every human law. I was like, well, that means you did some really awful things. And then the other one for me was the Gentleman's Club for Bust for Jones. I was like, well, that has a very different meaning in the US than it does in Britain. And so I'm like, depending on how you view those things, I'm like, that's a very different story. And so you're right.

Like it is just turning the view on it. And that's where, to me, I had always viewed Macavity as like a negative, a challenge where there is a version where it's also just a family member that's a little bit, the problematic one in the family, the troubling one in the family. But like you're saying, this is not, it's the same, but also different. I love it. It's why the show works so well.

[53:19] sis thee doll: That's why it's so beautiful. And I'm glad so many people are gonna get to see it.

[53:22] Mike Abrams: Yeah, it's incredible. This has been so fun. How can people stay up with everything you're working on and you're doing and all the stuff in your life?

[53:31] sis thee doll: The best way is follow me on Instagram at you can call me sis. That's where a lot of my shenanigans happen. You can also look at my TikTok and my Twitter. I'm not gonna say the other thing, but yeah, I'm all around. I'm all around in New York City popping my shit daily.

[53:51] Mike Abrams: I love it. Follow me.

[53:53] sis thee doll: I love it. We'll link all those too so people can follow you and stay in touch. And then once I get the, once I, I'm gonna be like messaging people be like, hey, we got a guest judge for you.

[54:04] Mike Abrams: So that day we will shine a light on your guest judging.

[54:08] sis thee doll: I'm my, my, my campaign for the Catsy Jellicle Ball is Sis the Jellicle Doll. So like, that's my, my thing, my thing. I'm gonna see for over what I can, how I can really take that to the max.

[54:24] Mike Abrams: I love it. Sis the Jellicle Ball.

[54:26] sis thee doll: Sis the Jellicle Doll.

[54:28] Mike Abrams: Sis the Jellicle Ball is so funny.

[54:30] sis thee doll: Sis the Jellicle Doll.

[54:32] Mike Abrams: Yes.

[54:34] sis thee doll: Amazing. Again, thank you for coming on. This has been so fun.

[54:37] Mike Abrams: Of course. Thank you.

[54:40] Mike Abrams: And thanks everyone else for listening to this episode of The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown podcast. Catch your feed to follow along. You can subscribe on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or listen to podcasts. Follow us on social media at The Wrong Cat Died or check out our website at theronkatdiet.com.