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[0:15] Mike Abrams: Welcome to The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of the CATS Astrophe. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have another amazing guest. We had the pleasure of having him join us at BroadwayCon a few years ago, but I'm thrilled to do a full episode today. You can see him at the Broadhurst Theater in the hit show, CATS, The Jellicle Ball, as Munkustrap. So welcome, Dudney Joseph Jr., and thank you for joining me.

[0:36] Dudney Joseph Jr.: Mike, thank you for having me. Glad to be back.

[0:39] Mike Abrams: I'm so excited. We did a brief conversation at BroadwayCon because there's a panel and there are a lot of people, and I just love your Munkustrap and how you've really transitioned and really done the narration. Munkustrap was a narrator, but you are working as a narrator in this show. So let's start with CATS in general, though. So I always love to hear, when was your introduction to CATS the musical before The Jellicle Ball?

[1:07] Dudney Joseph Jr.: So my introduction was at the public library in my neighborhood. I'm born and raised in Buffalo, New York. And so I can't remember which summer it was, but there was a summer my parents were always giving me, you know, projects to do and things to keep me busy when school was out. And so I went to our public library and rented the VHS of both Jesus Christ Superstar and CATS, the filmed version. And I remember being in awe of the dancing, didn't really understand anything that was going on. But that was my introduction when I was a kid. Yeah, it was pretty cool, pretty cool to see that. You know, and also I didn't really see much musical theater yet. I wasn't around it much. My family comes from Jamaica, West Indies, so that's not really something that they grew up around. So yeah, it was kind of different and cool and definitely caught my attention as a young kid.

[2:03] Mike Abrams: Awesome. Did you, when you were watching this movie, did you, like, gravitate towards any character or feel like, hey, this could be my future?

[2:11] Dudney Joseph Jr.: Well, yeah, I think as a baritone, you kind of take note of roles that you could play one day. And so I will say old Deuteronomy because of the, you know, late Ken Page, that definitely was someone who stuck out in my head immediately. I was like, oh my gosh, I could, maybe I could do that one day. So I definitely thought later in my career, that's something that I would do. But I will say, Icon, Andre De Shields, those shoes are so big, I don't think, I think we've removed that off the list.

[2:45] Mike Abrams: I mean, you can step into it.

[2:48] Dudney Joseph Jr.: I'll know.

[2:53] Mike Abrams: Yeah. So then did you have a chance, I mean, being in Buffalo, did it roll through town? Like, did you get a chance to ever see it live before?

[2:59] Dudney Joseph Jr.: Never saw it live, no. Before we'd started the workshop or anything like that, I'd never seen it live. So my, yeah, the only thing that I saw was that VHS of the original filmed version. But then I did also watch, once I started working at the workshop at Lincoln Center, I did watch the remake with like Jason Derulo and Taylor Swift and all that stuff.

[3:22] Mike Abrams: Okay, okay. So your experiences with the two movies, that's it.

[3:26] Dudney Joseph Jr.: Uh-huh, that's it.

[3:27] Mike Abrams: Have you to this day seen it live?

[3:29] Dudney Joseph Jr.: No, never seen it live, no. I would love to, I would love to, I would love to see. See, I know, but now there's so many versions now that I'm like, it almost feels like it's rare to see the original or the classic because I know, say, like Aurora Theater in Chicago, they did like a Western version, right? Or they did the circus version. And then there's like another theater that has done like a Western version. So all of, I know everyone's kind of, and now the new one that's happening in the West End is, takes place in a museum. So like, I feel like it's rare that you'll ever see the classic version.

[4:03] Dudney Joseph Jr.: I know, it's, there's been a lot of different productions and interpretations. And I mean, it kind of leads perfectly into, there is somebody who claims to do the first, because there was a contemporary version, Knot and Cat in Costumes in 2018, I think, was the first one that like claims to have really done it first. But this is a very different interpretation. So you started early on in the workshops for the Jellicle Ball performance, right? You were involved early on.

[4:31] Dudney Joseph Jr.: Yeah, there were maybe two workshops before I was brought on board. So there was a dance lab with Kaya, Omari, Primo, and then another performer. And then they did another workshop after that, soon after that. And then I joined the third workshop at Lincoln Center.

[4:53] Mike Abrams: Okay. Okay. When you first heard about the idea, as someone with ballroom experience, and also theater experience, what was your thought? Was it like, this is crazy? Or this makes so much sense? What was your initial thought with the writing of like, hey, this is what I'm going to join into?

[5:11] Dudney Joseph Jr.: So I'm obsessed with ballroom. And at the time, funny enough, it's just amazing how God, the universe, things end up in your path. So I took a break from ballroom for quite a while. And then when I moved to the city in 2020, after the pandemic, I became a member of the House of Oricci under Omari. And so I knew during our house practices that he would play the overture, and he was trying to figure out the language of both Vogue and like, you know, classical, ballet, all of the things, and try to figure out how to intertwine it. And he was, you know, at the time, Primo was in the house, Baby, we were all siblings in the House of Oricci at the time. And so I thought it was from that perspective, I thought it was brilliant watching the Vogue language he was applying to the music. I was like, oh, this is beautiful. And in this context, it makes sense. But from a, I guess, dramaturgical sense, I was like, I don't know how they're going to make this work.

[6:10] Mike Abrams: Yeah, completely.

[6:12] Dudney Joseph Jr.: Yeah, so I was kind of in the middle.

[6:15] Mike Abrams: Yeah, it makes so much sense. And no sense at all. Like, it's kind of the, like, I remember when I first heard about it, my introduction to it was the postings for like, on the actor, like, I don't know, Equity, like, it was like, Pete, and that was where the bunch of theater influencers like, what is this? And I reached out to Bill, like, four years ago, or like, you know, years before being like, I don't know what you're doing. But I have a cats podcast. And I'm in like, I'm happy to help like or support or let's chat about it. And he was like, No, we're not far enough along. Like, we will follow up if this becomes something, but it was like an early, early, early stage workshop. And then it was like, oh, this is happening.

Like this is this is going on stage. So early on in the PAC, as you were figuring this out, what was that like for you of defining and developing Munkustrap from a character that has 50, 40, 40 plus years of history, but also a new version to bring in this ballroom element of like, how you're emceeing a ball? How did you blur those two?

[7:28] Dudney Joseph Jr.: Yeah, I mean, I think I had tons of room to grow and explore working under the direction of Bill and Jalen, I think was a gift and very rare. Specifically for, I guess, the crossover between Cats, the musical, and then this ballroom story, they were very intentional about staying true to ballroom and preserving that culture and, you know, making sure that it translated in a respectful way. And then also preserving, I think, the history, legacy, orchestrations, all of the things, you know, both with T.S. Eliot's poetry and Andrew Lloyd Webber's work. And I will say, for me, it kind of was scary. In the beginning, we didn't really know what Munkustrap was going to do and how much room there was to play.

However, the gift I will say that I was given is it was always, doesn't he just do it? And if it's a no, we'll fix it later, you know? And for an actor, I'm like, yeah, I could cry because I never have been in that situation before. And also, it was scary because then if it was a no, it was because maybe—you had to take a big swing, no matter what, right out of the gate. I had to just jump in and just do it. And there were times where even with the transfer, I'll give credit to Cooper and Naomi that they were always like, take up space. You know how an emcee operates in a ball. We need you to plug that into this world and be completely unforgiving about it and take up space and figure that out.

But me, Dudney, as a person, I also am a very—I try to be a very generous actor. So I'm like, you know, when I'm not on, I'm out, you know? But this world we found as we were developing it, you can't do that. Like, I had to kind of be the through line to help carry it and make sure this thing works, everything makes sense. So in the beginning, I think I was pretty shy trying to figure out, you know, maybe a step back further. I also, although I'm in ballroom and have been in ballroom for so long, this is not my category. I walk runway. And so that's also another thing. In ballroom, you kind of stay in your lane unless you've totally honed the craft, right? And so chanting is not my, as we would say, not my ministry, and voguing is not my ministry.

I walk runway. That's my thing. Now, I also have always had a love for emcee commentators because I love being able to put the spotlight on who's in the room and wake it up and give them the energy for them to go off and lose it on the dance floor. I think that the magic that emcees create and where they're able to activate someone, I think that's a gift, and it's really incredible. And so, yeah, I always respected that craft, but never dared to put my foot near that arena. And so that's another thing, I think, a challenge I had to overcome, where it was kind of like, okay, well, you now have been selected as the emcee, so now you have to show up, and you've got to figure out how to take up space, do the thing, and then also represent the culture in a strong manner. So, yeah.

[10:56] Mike Abrams: It's kind of fascinating, too, of the, like, you're familiar with the scene, but since it's not your normal lane, like you're saying, you usually stay in this lane, you're now figuring it out, but you've mastered it. You've mastered it. And I want to hear a little bit about, because the chanting part is, I think, such a fun and cool and unique part, especially in the bows, but also throughout. I've had your old Deuteronomy chant stuck in my head since I saw the Broadway transfer. But I want to hear a little bit about the original first time you decided, like, hey, we're going to do this chant as the bows. Like, we're going to make a chant for each person as we're doing this. Because it wasn't, I don't think it was in the very first, I went to, like, one of your early previews in the PAC, and I don't think it was there. And it's like, when did that come, and how did you build that out?

[11:50] Dudney Joseph Jr.: So the idea first came, it was immediately after the Lincoln Center workshop. And so the emcee's responsibility at the start of the ball is to initiate LSS, which stands for Legend Statements and Stars. That's how every ball must begin. And so that tells you who's in the room, what status they hold. You also can use it to, you know, a good emcee or good commentator will also use the opportunity to kind of, you know, ignite the night by calling out rivals. And so they may find two people in the room, one may have lost over the other one at the previous function. And so they may call them back out during LSS to, you know, have the other person, oh, I heard you didn't feel you should have lost over that other person at the last ball, so let's make it hot and see what you got tonight kind of thing, you know?

Or if there's, like, a main category that's featured for the night. For instance, there was a ball I went to in Jersey, which was really cool. It was, like, for thousands of dollars for its soft performance. The name is different, but I'll censor myself just for this, just in case. But it's soft and something else. And that means, you know, your dips aren't very dramatic. You're not slamming your back on the floor really hard. It's more controlled. And so that particular category was featured for the night. And there was a cash prize, and the commentator found all of the people that knew. There was a running list of everybody that was battling for that cash that night, and he called out every single one of them before the category for, like, a little teaser, you know? So it was cool. And then you would see...

[13:28] Dudney Joseph Jr.: You know, other house members running to get the person off the floor to be like, don't give him too much. You still have to compete later. Like, keep it cute. You know, so anyway, I felt like we didn't have that moment in the show. We kind of touch on it a little bit in Gumby Cat with Jenny Any Dots. That's a little bit of it. Me saying, hey, this is Jenny Any Dots, the mother of the House of Dots. We're giving her her flowers. But I had the thought I ran into Jalen in the elevator and I wanted to say it to him right after Lincoln Center and we were still getting familiar as well. And also, you know, I come from musical theater. Even in musical theater, you stay in your lane, right? I'm an actor.

You hired me to do the gig. I don't even know if I'm transferring this thing. So who am I to be like, hey, you know what you should do? No. So I didn't say it in the elevator, but it was like March 20, I think March 2022, March something. I have the date. It's March something. I DMed him a voice note and I said, hey, thank you so much. It was a gift working on this project. But I just had an idea. I know you have a million of other things working on, and if I'm going to go on with it, I would love that. But I just wanted to give you this offering because I think it's something that could really like set us up for success. And I said, I think we should have the LSS as a curtain call. And I think it also will help the audience know who is what, who's which cat, you know.

So if we call out each cat by their name, somehow we can figure out a chant that, you know, tells something about who they are in this world. And so Jalen said, you know, it was great to see you. That's an interesting idea, I think is the response I got. You know, which is right. And then so we did, we ended up at the PAC. And this was a really big challenge for me because it was our second to last preview before we froze the show. I did find out throughout the process that Cooper, our associate, they had also had the same idea of having an LSS for Curtain Call. And so we had Trevor Holden, who was the Beater Ranger, incredible Beater Ranger. They had created the beats. I did not know any of this information.

I didn't know the beats. I didn't know what the timing was. I didn't know the order of the characters. But I knew that because Jalen Connah, I was almost like an olive branch by saying interesting idea. I just took it upon myself to say, hey, just work on this. And so for the weeks for the rehearsals at PAC when we're at 42, I started telling people, I was like, hey, I think I want to pitch. I did pitch this thing. I don't know if they're going to say yes, but I'm going to start working on Chance for you all. So Bustopher Jones was my first one. And then I started to kind of have a cypher a little bit. And I asked Primo, like, hey, could you help me? Because I was still figuring out my voice, figuring out how to do this thing.

And Primo had suggested, hi, it's nice to meet you. It's Mongo and Rumpelteazer, which I've kept because that one is just brilliant. And then I just kind of started to play around with the cadence. And so long story short, there is a video out there that Cooper has posted the day second to last preview before we froze. I got the beats at five o'clock before a seven o'clock show. I got the order of the cats at that time and was told, you're on, do it. And so we sat with the beats arranger in the house. I was literally an ancient cat in costume. It was the first time I was putting on the costume. They paused that and then I just did it. We figured out what the intro was going to be. They gave me a count of how many counts I had for each cat and we did it.

OK, we get to the show. We do it. We are told it's too long that they're going to cut it and they're going to go back to the traditional version of Mistoffelees is how they typically end the show. Right. Oh, well, that's how they typically end all the shows. And so I said, please give me one more chance, one more chance. And so I decided, well, this is kind of crazy. I cut my chant in the original and that was enough to give us enough time. And I did it the second time and they were like, love it. And that's what froze. So that's why even in the last version, I didn't get LSS like I do now in the transfer. And I was willing to make that sacrifice because I felt like it was important. And then funny enough, that was like what went viral.

Like that was the first thing that like we blew up after that. So, yeah, it was cool. That's kind of the history behind it. It's so it's such a cool piece. And then, you know, it's like in the world where there's not the filming of during the show, but the curtain call is like it's the part that's getting filmed, like it's the part that people are recording. And so, yeah, it was one of the early pieces that went viral, but it's also the piece that everyone is recording now to put out there. Like the amount of times I've seen the Broadway version is great and it's so fun. Did you make a lot of changes between the PAC and Broadway?

[18:02] Mike Abrams: I did. Yeah. For actually for all the chants where I tried to elevate some of them. So, for instance, like there actually are still I still workshop it, but I'm just like I will never stop if I keep doing it. So I just I'm like treating it like a freeze. I'm like, doesn't he just do what it is, you know? But for instance, yesterday I had I was looking at Jenny and I and I had an idea to do like she she's Jenny any dots with many spots. Something something is Jenny any dot. Like I had an idea of doing that. I was like, calm down. Like you don't need to change these chances, especially for my God, like Puma, who's my cover. I was like, I don't want to give Puma any hell. You know, I'm trying to, you know, have to remix all of these.

But but yeah, I changed. I'm trying to think of who did I change? Actually, they changed earlier. So I think from when we opened at the PAC to our third extension, they changed. And so I think the latest the third extension we had at the PAC to now is quite similar. I'm trying to think of ones that are different. Other than me having one, I think that, yeah, the third extension at PAC is probably the closest. But obviously we added DJ Griddlebone, etc. is new because we didn't have etc. We had we had a lecture, right? Yeah. So that changed. But then as far as not related to the bowels, like old Deuteronomy's chant, I changed that from PAC. I still do like do do do do. Yes, but I did old Deuteronomy's chant.

Yeah, OLD. Oh, yeah. OLD is new too. Yeah, OLD is new. And then old Deuteronomy is standing in front of me. Is that who I really see? Who is it going to be? That's that's new too. And then Mongolian Rumple Teaser, I changed that as well. Banshee Cat's ready to attack. You better get back. You better cat, cat, cat, cat. That's new too. Yeah. I love it. Yeah. The OLD got stuck in my head because I didn't remember. So I was like, oh, I was like, I like this. This is good.

[21:08] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Let's hear it. It's because I need a break. I believe that because it is like you are going for a while as Andre is like doing his thing, like it's not just completely working the straight. He's working the stage at that moment. So hard. Right. That you need something to keep him going and keep the life going. But it will take me out. So I was like, I have to figure out how to do something that has enough breath that I can breathe in between. But I mean, it's catchy. We're going to take a quick break and we'll be back for more of The Wrong Cat Died. It's definitely catchy. So that was that was the one where I was like I because, you know, at that point, having seen the show now multiple times, I do I love looking around more of the theater and like because you all fill the space so well, even opening night, I was in the mezzanine and all of a sudden you were standing right in front of me at one point to call out a category.

And that's something I didn't see the first time I saw it. So I make a point to kind of try to look around frequently. And during Andre's like everyone's eyes are just watching Andre. And the second time I went back on Broadway, I was really looking around more to be like, what are the rest of you all doing? And that was where I caught you. I think you were up on the on the stage during like in between the seats on stage and you're just chanted away. And it's like this is going for a long time.

[23:01] Dudney Joseph Jr.: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. We had I mean, he did it one time at the PAC, which was like it was almost like I mean, I love I cherish Andre so much. Like I could get emotional. Like I think it's just a gift to share the stage with him, like both on and off. And so it's funny. Sometimes I always wonder, I'm like, is he challenging me to do? Is he pushing me to make sure? Because I remember at the PAC, there was one time where he went off, he went down the runway back, then he went back to upstage to go get Junior. He almost brought Junior on stage, like it was our closing night. He was just like, let's go all out. And so from my point of view, I was like, oh, this is a challenge. I got it. I got it a lot.

Like I will chant until you sit down and clack that band. So it's so fun. It's fun. It's I mean, yeah, it's such a it's such a great cast and everyone's having a blast and staying in character and really owning that part. What has been some of the transition from the PAC to Broadway? Like you obviously have more space to fill and, you know, some new and obviously new performers and new pieces to this. But what has been kind of your biggest shift from going from downtown to Broadway?

[25:10] Dudney Joseph Jr.: I think the orientation of the space, right. So flipping Old Deuteronomy upstage versus downstage has been one. Also to yeah, being on a proscenium and just keeping things alive, as you as you pointed out, I do think it's difficult to to like focus to keep focus in certain areas and to make sure I guess from my main goal as a narrator is to make sure if you are if you do happen to be following me to make sure that I'm always zoned in on who needs to be watched. Right. And so that I think is kind of fun and kind of a little crazy, too, because we do get some reactions from the audience up there on the stage. And so sometimes you've got to be careful of what you're engaging with up here, because that may pull focus from what's happening front and center.

And then also just story wise, you know, making sure we keep the through line of like Old Deuteronomy is here to choose one cat and like that is the most important thing. So all that energy going back to him up at the throne, that's a little different to where before it kind of was easy. It was a little like we kind of cheated it a little bit respectfully because you didn't see him. You know, he was sitting with the audience. And so everything kind of did look like it was going that way, whether it was or not. And so now in this kind of format, we're a bit exposed that way. So it's yeah, it's just being a more intentional. And also, I feel funny enough, it's crazy. Like at PAC, we were more exposed, right?

We weren't behind walls, no proscenium, no anything like that. We're super exposed, almost like round thrust situation. But I feel more exposed on this stage than I did there. And I don't know if it also I have a spotlight now, all of these other things, but it's like you're always on always, like from beginning to end, you know? So yeah, you're you don't really that's always been a thing with cats in general is there's like, there are no breaks, like they are all on stage at all times. And you're all very similar. Like, you know, I even junior who's sitting up in the in the in the box is still visible and in acting the whole time of like, because I watched I was pretty close to him in the opening night, and I was watching him.

And he's like, he's fully Gus the entire time. And that's kind of like, you don't get these these times to kind of just sit backstage and relax when somebody is out there doing their thing. But that's also a beauty of cats in general. And also, I would assume part of the ball, like you're all out in like, in the space, whether you're the one walking the runway or not.

[26:57] Dudney Joseph Jr.: To do the thing. Or, I mean, little things like, you know, an effect or a costume piece might just so happen to not fit correctly right as you're hitting the runway. You're right, like, even in a ball setting, there's always so much, it's like organized chaos.

[27:15] Dudney Joseph Jr.: Yeah. You know? Yeah. That Jenny part too, it's like, they're trying to hype Cassandra up. And so it's like, I think it's Primo and Baby are sitting there, like, with her, like, getting her, it's like a hype, you know, a hype crew trying to get her ready to go do her thing.

[27:31] Dudney Joseph Jr.: And that's how it is. I have, I will never forget, I have an amazing picture, and a dear, dear friend of mine, Michael Wordley, went with me to my first, like, huge major ball. So literally, like, it would be equivalent to, like, the Jellicle Ball. It's called the Latex Ball. It happens once a year. It's free down at Terminal 5. And so it was my goal, when I first entered ballroom, to walk it. And so I walked, Omari was, I was at Ricci at the time, and I walked runway. It was crazy. We were up to, like, seven in the morning, trying to get my effect together for the ball that happened, like, seven that night. But there was an amazing picture that he took of my house sister, which was crazy. And I didn't even remember, because I think I blacked out once I hit the runway.

It was just so much energy. But she was walking another category. She ran up on the stage and pulled my arm, and the picture is her finger is in my face. And she's like, get it together. You know, like, she's, like, trying to, she was, like, you're being, like, you're being soft, and you need to, like, wake up and turn up the heat. And it's so, I love the photo, because it, I didn't realize as intense as it looked, you know, in the moment. But that's a, that's a real thing. It's a real thing.

[28:44] Dudney Joseph Jr.: I love it. It's such a, Ballroom is such a community. And it's, like, it's why, it just fits so well with why, like, with the Cat's story of, like, the Jellicle is our community. And, you know, I've heard this said a lot, and I've said it a bunch, but, like, I can't believe this didn't, this connection wasn't made sooner. Like, it wasn't, like, that it took this long with 40 plus years of this to get to that point where it seems so obvious. And kudos to Andrew Webber and Bill and Jalen and everyone who, like, had the vision, but also the willing to take the risk to see if it worked. And obviously, it did beyond belief.

[29:22] Dudney Joseph Jr.: Yeah, I think even with Bill, I mean, you have to give Bill his flowers, too, because, one, like, as, like, a white man, like, he just knows how to move through the space and how to, like, listen and then adjust and pivot and make the magic happen. But the reason why I really give him his flowers is because his original idea was a drag queen in a drag bar. Like, memory was, like, a situation of, like, a retired drag queen who I think was, paraphrasing here, but was, like, reminiscing over, yeah, like, when they were in their glory as a drag queen. And then I think with the help of Josie and Omari is then when it pivoted to ballroom. And so it's kind of crazy, too, from his perspective, to kind of release the reins on something that he initially, like, had a concept idea for this way, but then saw that it fit more in this world and trusted the people that were around him to help kind of shape it and make it all make sense is, I think, is pretty remarkable and pretty selfless, you know?

[30:34] Dudney Joseph Jr.: Yeah. I'm not, as someone not in the space, like, I'm not in these rooms to know how they historically function. But one thing I love about this production and how it's worked, and at least what it sounds like from all the people I've talked to, is it is one of the most collaborative groups of people that have worked together for the best outcome of the show. And one of the cool parts about this is just even with the casting, of casting theater and ballroom and, you know, the legends and the icons, and then also some of the new younger and up and coming and, like, really being thoughtful about how you're bringing these worlds together versus just having, like, we're just going to get all theater people and we're going to try to tell the ballroom story.

So I would love to hear a little bit about, like, we talked about Andre, but you also have Leomi and Junior LaBeija, like, these legends in this ballroom space. So how has it been having also that, like, what they can bring to this world, and then to Broadway, to, like, a space that historically has not had this, you know, this light shine on it nearly in the same space?

[31:27] Dudney Joseph Jr.: Yeah, I think, so having a pioneer icon, which is Junior, and then having an icon, which is Leomi, is just, like, words can't describe how much respect and adoration I have both for them, but then also, I guess, I do tip my hat, not I guess, but I do tip my hat to casting because it's imperative that those, like, the foundations of that culture, like, the leaders or the pillars of that culture, that they are immersed in this project. Like, it just shows that they cared about the culture and the people who made, put it on the map, right? That they're a part of us telling this story. I feel like it's just really cool to see a team, a creative team, that does really care because they made it right.

You know, like, they made sure that they could have easily stunt-casted this thing, easily, and could have gotten everybody in, whatever. But so my, I guess I will say with Leomi, it's incredible because I will say she actually was the first person that gave me, I was shaking when she came to the PAC. I could not settle my breath. Like, I was so concerned about how we were telling this and whether or not we were going to, she was going to be happy with what we had put together because that is someone where she was like one of the, she was the first trans woman to ever put Ballroom on a national scope. She's the second Ballroom person ever. The first was Andre Mizrahi. He competed at the Apollo, performing at the Apollo.

And then she was the second in America's Best Dance Crew. And she got a lot of crazy heat on that show, unjustly, from some of the judges on that panel. But I remember watching her on that show, and I was just, I was like, she's truly a superwoman. Like, she's just on the stuff she can do. But then also you see how she moves outside of it. She cares about Ballroom. She cares about who represents Ballroom. And then she also is one of the, I think, pivotal leaders in the community that opens the door for everyone. Like, she is easily putting people, pushing people in the limelight. And so for her to be a part of this, I didn't know her theatrical history, and I didn't care. Like, she just has to be—the fact that she even considered it, I was like, it has to come true.

And I will tell you, it's been a joy working with her. One thing that I've learned from working with her is it's great because she hasn't gone through the years of, like, you have to do it this way, you have to do this way. She bends the rules in a way where it's, like, alive. Her performance is alive. She just, it has the instincts. First of all, her comedic instincts are incredible. Without any training, it's remarkable that she has comedic instincts like that. But it's amazing to play with her on stage because normally, as I explained before, I'm a performer. Sometimes I get my own way because I don't want to overshadow someone's moment, or I'm nervous that my beat might be too close to the other person's moment.

Even if it doesn't overshadow, I just like, oh, I want to give enough breadth so it doesn't look like, and Laomi, if there is something, she'll see it and she'll take it and play on that beat, and then you have to adjust. And I love that, that she's really living in the space. And for her to have a natural instinct like that is just remarkable.

[35:18] Dudney Joseph Jr.: And then I would say for Junior, for me, it meant a lot being in the same space with Junior because not only was he a pioneer and an icon, but he's the first person to ever say the category is, ever. So for me to be saying those words in his presence, it was very intimidating. And I remember sitting with him a few times just saying, you know, thank you for allowing me, and he stopped me immediately. He goes, no, this is yours. He immediately was like, no, this is, you have the torch, take it and make it yours. Do your own thing. And for him to be just so gracious and also to give me a boost of confidence that I can run with it and do the thing, you know, I think the first time I tried the percat, he gave me like a snap and I said, okay, I'm on the right track.

And then naming a catch, he gave me a, yeah, he definitely gave me a snap after that. And that was all I needed because he does, when he speaks, everything stops, and so, but sometimes he doesn't say much. He's just listening and observing and watching. So you never really know. But with him, there's just so much history there. And even behind, I'll give an example. There's a word that I say when I chant for Temprus, it's, I'm going to forgive my pronunciation, but it's, it's canta, which in Spanish is like papers, identification, certification. And so in ballroom, I'd always heard this word, you're serving face, you're serving carta, never knew what that meant. It never took the time to really research and look up what it meant.

And we went to him and he explained that it was Spanish. And then turns out, we're basically saying like what Beyonce says, like face card never declines. So your face is certified, certified face, undeniable. You've got the structure, the glamour. Temprus, she's everything. The face is what you desire to be like in a perfect face. And so I think it's cool that, yeah, even as an icon, like he's been in there kind of sharing knowledge about things that were said that you can't look that up on Google, you can't look that word up in the dictionary. So it's just kind of incredible that he's there and you could literally sit next to him and just ask, and he will share all of the things that is still underground that you would never know about.

So yeah, so it really has just been a gift to have both of them there and both of them here kind of loving it and getting to put their stamp all over this thing. It just means that we did it right, you know, so yeah.

[38:11] Dudney Joseph Jr.: So what would you say to someone who's not seen the show, who's on the fence? How would you tell them? And you can classify them as Cats fans, Cats haters, just Broadway people, anybody in between. What's your quick pitch for why someone who's not seen the show should go?

[38:31] Dudney Joseph Jr.: Oh, I mean, I think it's a true celebration of Black queer, POC Black queer culture. But also, I think it's a revolutionary piece in the way where you are seeing movement and dancing and legit singing all in one space that has never been done before. I think that's my pitch. But also preserving, if you love Cats, okay, then you're seeing the original orchestrations, you're still hearing legit singing, but with a twist. And if you hate Cats, you're then now being introduced into a world that has always existed, that still exists, that you may not have known about. And I do think that it's imperative now in the world and climate that we're in, that you may not understand, right, but these people, queer people, trans, we all deserve to be seen, we all deserve to take up space.

And so if anything, I think to be educated on a subculture that was formed out of resistance, right, Crystal LaBeija, you know, did it, stepped out of the ballroom scene, created this space where, you know, Black and Latinx queer folk could be celebrated. And then also for trans folks, a place where they could practice how to own skills where they would not be clocked in real life, right, or not be, you know, targeted out in the real world, you know, it was a way, you look at like the realness category, specifically, I don't want to talk too much about it, because I'm, you know, a cis man, but in some of those categories, like, you know, femme queen realness and stuff like that, that was the space where they were basically kind of conditioning themselves and preparing themselves to step out into the real world. So this culture was formed out of resistance, but also a safe.

[40:27] Dudney Joseph Jr.: Because in the real world, no one was respected or seen or cared for. So I think it's beautiful to see what that culture created, right? You look at Tempest, you look at Leon, like you look at these beautiful women that have come out of, been birthed out of that scene, and then for them to be, you know, just honored and celebrated. And then you also see the hard work and grit and discipline and sacrifice and all of that stuff that was put into making them into the beautiful people they are today. I think that's worth, that alone is worth buying a ticket. Amen. Yeah, I think it's, it's, it's Broadway at its finest. Like it's singing and dancing and, and, you know, big production with things happening all around you, but it's got an energy that not every show has, you know, it is an active crowd and it's fun and you'll walk out happier than you walked in.

That's it. And it's, and it's Cats, like it's still Cats. So I love it. I think it's so important that it's happening, you know, in our current climate and that there's, you know, a light being shined on this, on this particular, you know, group of people that does not always have the representation. And I hope it, you know, it sparks other, you know, people to, to go into performing or go into the ballroom scene or, or see, you know, people like them in, on Broadway and know that that is like a real, it's a possibility. It's not a, it's not a dream. Like it is a real path. And that's to me a very cool piece of this.

[42:02] Dudney Joseph Jr.: I agree. I think, I think the moment it hit for me was at PAC during Moments of Happiness, the slideshow in Act Two where we honor the pioneers, you know, trailblazers that paved the way. So you have people like Tracy Africa, like all of, you know, the above, Willie Ninja, all these people. And I remember looking around in the audience before we did like the flashlight moment and there were people, you know, I'm not assuming anything, but it didn't matter what their orientation was, you know, non-binary or otherwise, doesn't matter, with tears in their eyes, because at that moment, right, it's like everyone was seen, like everybody, you know, yeah, they just saw each other somewhere. And I do think the same thing with the group.

It's so cool, like with the list of Cats that we're all human, someone in there identifies with at least some characteristic of some Cat, you know? So it's, it's really, really, really cool to see that and to actually, it feels like church for a second, you know, it's like every, or some sort of vibe like that, where we all are in community together as like a congregation, like feeling the same, we all feel the same thing, we all are like experiencing the same thing and sharing this moment together. So yeah, it's, yeah, I think, and that's priceless, I think, and no, that alone is worth the ticket price, so.

[43:39] Mike Abrams: Well, if you want to hear the religious church version, ask Andre, because when I interviewed him, he is living the Deuteronomy, you know, to a T, and it was so fascinating to hear. It felt like, you know, a religious experience hearing him explain his thought process on these things, so I, I agree. We're going to take a quick break, and then we'll be back for more of The Wrong Cat Died. Let's do some quick Cats rapid fire. You can go with the 1998 movie, the 2019 movie, or the Joel Cabal to answer these. You can pick any one you want, just, I'm asking for you, um, as Dudney, uh, you, what is your answer for these? So the first one is, if you could go on for one night, any Cat, male, female, it doesn't matter if you can sing it, dance it, but you could perform them in one night, who do you want to perform as?

[44:14] Dudney Joseph Jr.: Without any limitations, I know I'm going to go back on what I just said in the moment, but I would do Old Doof if I, if I could handle it. Old Deuteronomy, if I could handle it. I can't do, I can't do any of them, so I'm asking this as in the, like, as in the, which one would be, which one would be fun to do? Um, so I love that answer. Favorite and least favorite Cat from a personality standpoint? So who would you want to hang out with, and who would bug you?

[44:40] Dudney Joseph Jr.: Oh, who would I want to hang out with and who would bug me? Um, oh my goodness. You're going to get me in trouble.

[44:44] Mike Abrams: Not performers, I'm talking pure character personality.

[45:01] Dudney Joseph Jr.: Oh, who would I want to hang out with? Um, I, Bustopher Jones is who I would want to hang out with because they're, they're a great time. I mean, they run a bar, look, enough said. Um, who would get, who would be trouble? Who would get on your nerves?

[45:26] Mike Abrams: Who would get on my nerves?

[45:27] Dudney Joseph Jr.: Yeah, they're still family. You know, you've got that one family member. Everyone's got one.

[45:32] Dudney Joseph Jr.: Who would get on my nerves? Oh no, plead the fifth. I don't know.

[45:37] Mike Abrams: All right. All right. All right. Favorite song in the show.

[45:43] Dudney Joseph Jr.: Oh, Mungojerrie and Rumpelteazer.

[45:45] Mike Abrams: Love it. And then if you were in, like you Dudney, if you were in one of the houses that are in the show, so House of Dots, House of Macavity, House of Glamour, or if you're going to start your own, which one would you be in?

[45:53] Dudney Joseph Jr.: I'd be House of Dots.

[45:57] Mike Abrams: House of Dots.

[45:58] Dudney Joseph Jr.: Yes.

[45:58] Mike Abrams: Okay. I've asked you this and I know you've prepped it. So if I, the wrong cat died, got a chant at the bows, what would it sound like?

[46:08] Dudney Joseph Jr.: Okay. Okay. So I got to get it. Uh, hold on, hold on. I also need to look at my notes. Okay. So let's go. You ever wonder if the wrong cat, you ever wonder if the wrong cat died, you ever wonder if the wrong cat, wrong cat, you ever wonder if the wrong cat died, you ever wonder if the wrong cat died? Who do you think should be dead or alive? I want to hear who used all nine lives. Which one pick when the wrong cat died. You ever wondered if the wrong cat died? Who do you think should be dead or alive? I want to hear who used all nine lives, which one pick, when the wrong cat died? And which one pick one, which, which, which one pick one, which one pick one said, spilled the tea on the one. Cat died.

[46:50] Mike Abrams: I love it so much. So good. I, my, my dream is to guest judge one day when, when, when you're done with all of the major celebrities that are currently doing it, um, we got to get through all of the, like, I mean the list of names you're getting right now. I'm like, Oh, I'm like months from now before I should even ask, but you're OG, you should be able to get in there. Your OG, your OG pack. So you should be able to, you should be able to get you in that, in that running list for sure.

[47:24] Dudney Joseph Jr.: That was so fun. I am so glad I have that recorded. Okay. That's going to lead us to the million dollar question, which is your choice. I've argued at length. I do think it's harder to argue against Tempest. Um, but who is your choice for the Jellicle choice and why?

[47:39] Dudney Joseph Jr.: Gus. So now I know it changed from what I said in opening, but it, it, it has to be Gus. In our world, Gus is my house mother, first commentator in at the Jellicle Ball has since retired. And so I've taken over that spot. Right. And so now I think I have seen them let everyone go before them. And I'm from a MC commentator standpoint for decades, they have been the one to dictate, you know, right before Old Deuteronomy. If we look at the format, right, they're the last ones to speak before Old Deuteronomy makes the Jellicle choice. So to think that Gus was the commentator in our world and did that for decades and decades and was never chosen. And then the time that they were supposed to be chosen, Grizabella came knocking at the door and messed up the whole game. It's Gus. It's gotta be Gus.

[48:37] Mike Abrams: Team Gus. I, so I love it because I've always been team Gus from the other productions, from, you know, the non-Jellicle Ball version. And it's, to me, it's like, you know, he's got palsy and he's like really on his last leg and he's, he needs it. And then I kind of, the first time I went and saw you at the PAC, I'm like, Junior doesn't look ready. Junior looks like he's having the time of his life up there. Like, I was like, Oh no, this is going to ruin my show. Like this is going to ruin the entire podcast. And, um, but I, I, I think I'm starting to convert some people on like, it's Gus's time. And Junior said on the gold carpet, like it's me. And he didn't say Gus, he just said me. So I'm like, I don't know if he was talking about Junior or Gus, but either way it's both. He wants to go.

[49:25] Dudney Joseph Jr.: Oh, this is, this has been so fun. Um, I'm so glad we finally got to do this. I know also, if you haven't had a chance, you have probably one of my favorite parts from the Broadway con, uh, episode. And it's like, I don't know if we even do it justice on the podcast because Silk had the, someone told Silk the time wrong. And so Silk came in like a few minutes late and we stopped midway through and you did a chant and Silk like walked the runway through the whole crowd. And it was like the most energetic, like show-stopping moment of this whole thing. And I'm like, we put the podcast out. I'm like, I don't know if anybody has any idea what's going on in this, because it's just, it's just you chanting and Silk like completely owning the whole room.

It was great. So, um, I think we've posted videos of it. We've got some stuff out there, but if you haven't had a chance, I'm glad we got to have a full episode and like deep dive into all this stuff, especially since the transfer. So congrats to you all. And if you haven't gotten tickets, uh, go get tickets, go immediately. It's the hit of the season. The reviews are amazing. I hope you win every Tony possible. Um, and I hope it sells and runs forever.

[50:31] Dudney Joseph Jr.: Thank you, Mike. And that was a gift. That was my first BroadwayCon ever. I was shocked that like my name was even thrown in the hat for that. And so that whole thing was just, yeah, it was this whole, this whole process, production, everything has just been like the gift I didn't expect. I kind of just was like dove in ready to just play and do the thing, but it's just been so rewarding. So thank you for that. Even that chanting thing was, yeah, this was, I think Sydney was doing a beat boxing and like, it was just, yeah, it was lit. It was lit. It was, it was awesome.

[51:04] Mike Abrams: How can people stay in touch with you personally? We'll link all the Junkaball stuff too.

[51:08] Dudney Joseph Jr.: Yeah. So, uh, Instagram it's, uh, Dudney underscore Jr. Um, so D-U-D-N-E-Y underscore Jr. is my IG handle. Uh, Facebook Dudney Joseph Jr. Yeah. Just I'm on socials. Yeah. I don't think, are we using TikTok still? I don't know. I'm on there, but don't really use it. I'm, I'm really bad at it. I occasionally post stuff and, uh, I, I use it more to, to watch stuff, um, than I am to contribute currently at the moment, but it still seems to be going. So maybe we'll throw the chant up. Maybe we'll throw the video of this chant up there for the group.

[51:43] Dudney Joseph Jr.: Word. I do. It's funny. I will text you. I would. So my process too, is normally I mumble stuff. So I'll, I go to SoundCloud and throw on a Vogue beat and I'll be like, something died, something died. And I'll just keep running that until, so I literally have, I do have a video. It's not facing me, but it's facing over. And I think I did flip it and I was like, I got it. And so I'll send it to you.

[52:11] Mike Abrams: Please. Yeah. It's been fun. That's been the fun part. I do have to plug though. When I, when I did the, before I did the last, uh, when I figured out the, I booked the Lincoln Center thing after my audition, I was told to work on it. So I do have to plug that it was, um, Snooki, the legendary Snooki West and who it really was, was Precious, legendary Precious Basquiat, who are two ballroom commentators. And so I signed up for classes. And so I was out in Brooklyn with, um, Snooki was in Manhattan at Pearl, had a workshop through Silk and then Precious. I went all the way to deep in Brooklyn and took a class and just tried to figure out how to do this thing, you know? So I do have to give them a shout out. Um, because yeah, I just kind of learned the foundations of how to do the thing and play around. And so they gave me their blessing too, which was really, really great for that.

[53:06] Mike Abrams: That's awesome. Commitment to the craft. Cause it is, I mean, it's, it's incredible to watch and it's, I've, I've filmed it a couple of times now. Every time it's like a straight six or seven minutes, like it is all the way through and you are doing it the entire time. Like there's, there's no break. Um, so it is awesome to watch.

[53:26] Dudney Joseph Jr.: Yeah. Thank you again. Thanks.

[53:32] Mike Abrams: Well, everyone go see Cats: The Jellicle Ball at the Broadhurst and thanks again for coming on.

[53:36] Dudney Joseph Jr.: Thanks for having me, Mike.

[53:39] Mike Abrams: And thanks everyone else for listening to this episode of The Wrong Cat Died. The podcast breakdown, the cast, our feed follow along. You can subscribe on Apple podcasts, Spotify, rest of my cast, false social media, The Wrong Cat Died or check the website, thewrongcatdied.com.