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[0:00] Mike Abrams: Welcome to The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of Cats-Hash-Phi. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and this is a Vault episode. I know we're all missing the Jellicle Ball, and it is the end of Skimbleshanks summer, but I thought we had to bring this episode back up to the top. So this is actually Emma Sofia, who is Skimbleshanks in Cassandra and the Jellicle Ball. She is amazing and had the best run ever on that show and was so great, and all of you love her. But I don't think most of you know or had the chance to hear the first time she was on the show. She's been on this podcast three different times, and this was back in February 10th of 2021. That was introduced by Colin Cunliffe, who was Skimbleshanks on the 2016 tour.

He had performed with Emma in other stuff before. They were very good friends, and he told me, you have to hear her story about how she auditioned for the 2016 revival of Cats, that she obviously did not book. But it's crazy, and at the time she was in a show called Call Your Mother, which I watched and enjoyed because Emma was just hilarious in it. But I don't think, again, a lot of you got to hear her audition story, which was exactly what you would expect from Emma. And it's one of my favorite stories in this podcast that is Cats-related, but someone at the time who had not done Cats. And I always told her every time I saw her, I was so glad she got her Jellicle moment and she got to be Skimbleshanks in the Jellicle Ball because she was ready for it and she knew it.

And it is a very fun episode. It's very early in this podcast's history. It was episode number 35. And again, this was within the first probably year, maybe year and a half of doing this show. And it's one of my favorite stories, and I don't think enough of you have heard of it because even at the time she wasn't Emma Sofia. So I'm bringing this back for you all to listen to. So enjoy this vault episode with Emma Sofia. There's a cat over here. There's a cat over there. And the wrong one died. And the wrong one died.

[2:21] Mike Abrams: Welcome to The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of The Cat Sastrophe. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have an amazing guest. You may have seen her on Broadway in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory or Finding Neverland, or you might know her from her role as Celia on ABC's new sitcom, Call Your Mother. But she's here today because I have been told she has an incredible tie to Cats the musical due to an infamous audition. So welcome, Emma Caymares, and thank you for joining me.

[2:47] Emma Caymares: Hello. Thank you for having me.

[2:52] Mike Abrams: Now, we will get to this audition because one of your very good friends told me about this audition and I want to hear directly from you. But before we do that, I always love to hear about your history with Cats. So pre-audition, like, how many times had you seen it? Had you seen it at all? Like, what was your relationship to the show?

[3:07] Emma Caymares: So, okay, I gotta come clean. I don't know much about Cats. And, you know, I've seen the Broadway show. I saw the revival with Colin. You know, I saw it live. The first time I saw it was on a VHS tape from the public library. I believe in the year 2001. I was in middle school.

[3:38] Emma Caymares: Three years after the VHS came out. Yes, three years after the VHS came out. I knew that. Um, I rented it from the public library because I went to an art school and I had to do like a, I think it was a report or something with dance history. And I was like, okay, I'll watch the musical Cats. And I watched it on VHS and I was thoroughly confused and amused and entertained. And I was like, what is I have no idea what's happening, but I want to do that. That looks like a lot of fun.

[4:16] Mike Abrams: So what grade was that?

[4:19] Emma Caymares: That was like sixth or seventh grade. So junior high-ish.

[4:24] Mike Abrams: Okay. So that's not like super young. I have a very big thing. I don't like that a lot of kids go see the show. I think it's too dark and scary for children. Um, yeah, but the VHS isn't that bad because it's more of a movie setting. It's not, it was a movie. I just was a little confused. You know, it's, it's the type of thing, like I watched Labyrinth when I was a kid and I was like, what the hell is going on? And then I watched it as an adult and I was like, Oh, this is amazing. I feel like it's in the same vein.

[4:57] Emma Caymares: Uh, yeah, I mean the cult, you know, it is, it's so interesting. Cause I, you know, I'm not, not a dancer, not a singer, not at all related to the Broadway community besides now because of this podcast. And so I never had that like go see the movie. I didn't know that there was a VHS until after I saw the revival and someone was like, Oh, you should go watch that version. There's a, you know, a 1998 DVD or VHS or whatever you can find, which is really what's up on YouTube. So it's like, Oh, you can just watch pieces of it on YouTube. And I, it was just so new to me. So every time I've heard, you're not the first person that's done some like substitute teacher brought it in and showed it or junior high project. But that's just fascinating to me because that's just not at all what my junior high school would have. I grew up in LA, you know?

[5:49] Emma Caymares: Yeah. I grew up in Indiana. So it's very, very different. Um, so, okay. So you saw that, you saw that and, and did you like, what was your take when you saw it? So you said you were confused, but did you, okay. So, so you that's junior high you, and you've kind of like probably blocked it out for the rest of your life.

[6:01] Emma Caymares: I mean, I, I, I remember really enjoying it because I was a dancer. You know, I was, uh, I was a really serious dancer still, you know, still am, but now I'm acting more, but I was, I was like, I want to do something like that. Like, that looks amazing. Like I remember it making a good impression that I was like, Whoa, what is this insanity? I want to be a cat. Um, and then I kind of forgot about it. And then life happened. Um, you know, boring, boring, boring life, life, life. And then Cats popped up in my life again. Um, when I was in Finding Neverland and it was all this, it was like the hottest buzz backstage buzz. It was like, Oh my God, did you hear Cats is coming back to Broadway? Oh my God. Did you hear like Andy Blank can be like, it was like the number one hot goss of backstage of Broadway.

[7:59] Emma Caymares: So this is now what? 2015 ish. This is 2015, 2016. Yeah. 2015. So you are on Broadway on Broadway and you're just, it's every, everything is, everyone's talking about everything is happening. Broadway is happening. Cats is coming to town. We can't believe it. And I was like, I'm going to, I'm going to be in this show. I was determined because I also Finding Neverland was my debut. We had been, I had done the out of town. I had done the workshop, the out of town run. And then we were like in the thick of the run when Cats was like starting to buzz about like people were starting to get auditions. So I was like, Oh, I am so ready. This is going to be my second show. I am doing it. Like, I can't wait to dance in a unitard. Like, let's go. I was very excited.

[8:56] Emma Caymares: And then this is what leads to this, this infamous audition. So how did you land the audition? Okay. I know nothing about this world. So this is like, it's so, it's, it's all.

[9:08] Mike Abrams: Yes. So you, so Agent Lane do the audition. You're ready to go.

[9:12] Emma Caymares: Yeah. And I remember she landed the audition and I was backstage in like the, on the, on stage left was where like the boys hung out of the backstage of Finding Neverland. And it was Colin or, and some of our other boys, and we would always have our little tea time, you know, I'd walk over there and talk to them. And I remember talking to them and I was like, you guys, I think, I think I'm going to, I think I'm going to buy a white unitard. I think I'm going to, I think I'm going to buy a white unitard for this, for this audition. Like, what do you think? And they were like, go for it, do it. And I was like, you know what? I'm going to do it. Like, I don't care. Can I curse on this? I was like, whatever, I'm going to fucking buy a fucking white fucking unitard. That was verbatim what I said.

[9:56] Emma Caymares: So I remember going to the Capizio store on Broadway, I believe in 50th street. I went to the Capizio store. I like tried on a long sleeved white unitard that is just a touch translucent. And I took a photo of myself for my agent. And I took, and I sent it to her. I was like, this is what I'm wearing for the Cats audition. And she was like, I love it. Great. Everybody was just gassing me up. Everybody was like, yes, this is such a good idea. Emma, live your dreams. And I was like, great. I'm amazing. I'm going to kill this. And I do have to, I do have to give you some context of like my training as a dancer. Like if I was like a, like a tap dancer or a hip hop dancer, or just like a theater jazz dancer, I would not have done this.

I, cause I have a lot of, like, I have ballet and contemporary ballet training. So the only reason I had so much confidence in myself was because I have the technique to back it up. If I didn't have the technique to back it up, I wouldn't be so up my own ass about all of this, you know, cause you have to, you have to know when you can be an asshole. You know what I mean?

[10:19] Mike Abrams: Yes. I mean, you're, you're qualified for this role and there's not a big population of people qualified probably.

[10:24] Emma Caymares: I was like, I have the technique, so I'm going to be an asshole. So I was like, I can, I have the chops to back it up. So I feel confident enough to walk into this audition with a long sleeve white unitard. And that wasn't to say that I was like, I am going to be Victoria. That wasn't my goal actually. And nobody knows this. This is exclusive Intel. My goal was not to be Victoria. It just was to be an asshole and to be just like, to wear a white unitard. Cause I was like, why not? I'm bored. Let's have some fun. Cause we only got one life to live. So I was like, I have really good ballet technique. I'm in a slavish audition. I'm going to wear a white unitard. So I buy the unitard. I show it to the boys backstage.

They were like, this is phenomenal. Live your dreams. And I was like, you know what? I'm going to like kick it up a notch. And I had just bought this, uh, you know, like onesies, like the animal onesies that I really loved. I bought, I had just bought a tiger onesie from Target. So I was like, I'm going to wear my tiger onesie over my white unitard during the warmup. So I did that. So I walked into the audition room like that because there was a, a warmup room and then like the real room where we went into audition. So I walked into the warmup room with a tiger onesie with the hood up with the ears and everything. And I just stood there and then I just slowly unzipped and revealed my white unitard. And what was the reaction?

[12:14] Emma Caymares: I had some friends in the room. Cause I knew that I was going to know everybody. So people were just like laughing and shaking their head. And I just started warming up and I was like, let's go, let's do this. So you pretty much know most of this room. Like it's not a huge world that you're in. And so how many people in that room knew you were going to do that? And how many people saw the tiger?

[12:29] Emma Caymares: Oh, so no one knew. So you come in with tiger outfit and onesie and all, and just, I had a high bun. It was, I looked gorgeous. It was amazing. Just come in, make a statement. Yeah. And my body looks good. Cause I was on Broadway. I was like doing eight shows a week. So I was like, great, let's do this. I was 25.

[12:54] Mike Abrams: Now, how many, I guess this is where I just don't know enough about the world. How many other auditions have you ever dressed up for? None? Like, is this like common? Is this?

[13:06] Emma Sofia: It's pretty common. It depends. Because this isn't also, you have to understand that that is not dressing up for me. That's just, that's just being a little bit pointed and highlighted. Because I'm still wearing like proper dance attire. You know what I'm saying?

[13:23] Mike Abrams: Yeah, I guess. Okay.

[13:25] Emma Sofia: So this was not a costume for me. I was just wearing a very flashy, you know, dance attire, outfit. I just was being an asshole.

[13:37] Mike Abrams: Got it. Okay. I, you know, I'm trying to, so I'm trying to translate into my world, which is, is, is worthless. Because most of the people listening to this don't, are more me. They're more Broadway people. But I grew up playing hockey. And, and I like think of the, now I still, still play. And, you know, at this point when you're playing just beer leagues or adult leagues, you know, it's like, it's for fun. But every once in a while, someone shows up with like the, the face like shield that's like reflective or something. And it's just like, you've got to be really good to wear that and not be made fun of or not be just ridiculed the whole time. And so that's what it sounds like you did. It's like, Hey, this is still kind of like quote unquote your equipment.

[14:25] Emma Sofia: Yeah. It's still the normal equipment, but it was a reflective mask. I feel like I need to get a tiger onesie to wear to a game one time and just like to the locker room.

[14:34] Mike Abrams: I think you should.

[14:36] Emma Sofia: Okay. So you didn't like go full, the cat's makeup and everything.

[14:40] Emma Sofia: No, no, no, no. I didn't have leg warmers or arm warmers or any of that shit. No, I just was in a clean, long sleeved white unitard, no leg warmers, no nothing, just a unitard. My hair was up in a high bun. And I had like a cat eye eyeliner because I always wear cat eye eyeliner for auditions.

[15:04] Mike Abrams: And what was the reaction to the actual audition? Not the other people in the warmup room, but like, was it recognized that there was this kind of like, I don't know what the term is, like you kind of came in guns blazing a little bit.

[15:19] Emma Sofia: Oh, I did. I did. And people were, and they were like, they looked at me and they just laughed and shook their head. And they were just like, work, go, like live your dreams. They knew, they know that I'm, that I was a concert dancer before Broadway. They knew that I danced in companies and that I was, that I have strong ballet technique. So they looked at me, like they laughed at first, like, oh, I can't like, of course you did this, Emma, cause you're so extra. And like kind of rolled their eyes, but they were like, go, go kill that audition. Cause they knew I could, you know, like one of my, like, uh, one of my friends, Kurt, he's like phenomenal. He was in New York City Ballet. And then he, he, we did the workshop of American in Paris together.

And we were in the, the same, the same group. And I think I went last, I went, I was in the last group. And he like, what did he say? He was like, he was like, oh, like everybody's been waiting for this. Like, you know, Emma's going up now, like everybody's waiting. And it was funny. Like I, and I really killed it. I re I remember being like, I was so on my leg. I was so like everything I was performing, it was like, it was one of the best auditions that I've ever had. And you went in even knowing that you really didn't almost didn't even really want the position, the role you wanted to deliver.

[16:47] Emma Sofia: I just wanted to deliver and I wanted any role possible. I just wanted, I just wanted to be in the show. I just wanted to dance in general. I just wanted to dance, um, because I had been doing the same show for a couple of years already. So I just wanted something new. So I wasn't, I wasn't like Victoria or nothing. I just wanted to be, I just wanted to make a statement and I wanted to have fun. And everybody was taking it so seriously. You have to understand that like the way that Broadway people like talk and think about Broadway and refer to Broadway is as though we are doing heart surgery and is as though like somebody's life depends on it. And I am not, I never, I was always of the dance world and I always was into film.

So I never was a big Broadway person. So every time I would come into Broadway, I like Broadway circles and communities, I would just kind of be like, you know, but it's not that big of a deal. And I would always get a lot of shit for saying that because I'm like, whatever. It's just broad. It's a musical. Who cares? It's not heart surgery. The people are like, Oh, how dare you? It's Broadway. It's cats. So that was kind of the sentiment behind it was that I was like, you know, we're not doing heart surgery. It's just a musical like everybody calm down. Let's have some fun. Because it's all if we're not having fun, then why are we doing this at all? We should be having fun. This is amazing. Like we one of the original cast members was at our audition teaching our audition like that is history.

It was beautiful. It was amazing. And I was like, this should be fun. But also, you need to kill it. Like if you're gonna walk in with a white unitard and the tiger onesie, you have to have the chops. So that was my whole thing.

[18:42] Mike Abrams: That's I mean, it's so fun to kind of think about. It's refreshing to hear that because I being someone who's not really part of the community by any means, you know, I have a whole show devoted to just why I think there's the story was written wrong. That's that's the premise of the show. And it is like I go when I see and you're living in New York, I see a lot of them now I get to go and I like I'm very grateful to be able to go see Broadway, but I usually walk out. I'm just like, Oh, that was good. Or that was that was good. It's not life or death. But I because I don't know anything else about the rest. I was like, Oh, that singing sounded great. Or that dancing looked really hard. I can't do that.

But I can't do I couldn't do the most basic of tick tock dances, let alone Broadway dancing. And so it's like it isn't an interesting piece to hear like from you. That is like, it's fun. Let's have fun. Let's do that. Because I think you see that you can see that in some of the shows I've seen where you can tell the group is having fun.

[19:35] Emma Sofia: Yeah. And that was my that was the whole point of me being, you know, extra for the audition. So do you want should I tell the rest of the story?

[19:47] Mike Abrams: Yeah, I want to hear the rest. Of course.

[19:49] Emma Sofia: So. So I like Kurt was like, Oh, Emma's group is going up like, Oh, my God, everybody get ready. Like, Emma's going up. So I go up. I was like, Wow, I really nailed that. That was amazing. I was so proud of myself. It was one of the best auditions I had ever had. I was like, wow, I really lived up to the white unitard. I patted myself on the back. I was so proud. Then I had to go to my theater to do my show that night. So that night, we're all getting ready. Everybody's talking about the audition. You know, the we get our call our five minutes to curtain. So like one person, they start getting callbacks, people start getting callbacks. And I was like, right before your show, like, right, like during like, during like a show starting, you have to also understand that, like life goes on.

And Broadway's always happening. A pandemic. But, you know, because we're living in an anomaly, an anomalous time right now, I would just assume that a callback like that Broadway would know that there's a like, hey, oh, they don't. Yeah, eight o'clock on on most nights, they're probably gonna be busy.

[20:59] Emma Sofia: Yeah, but they don't care. Because it's always about what's coming next. You know, that's the industry in general. It's like, what's next? So everybody's getting their callbacks. And I was like, Oh, I'm so excited to get my callback. I was so confident. I was so confident. Like, I received a text from somebody in Bill T. Jones, the company who went to college with me, we were in a dance conservatory together. I received a text from him that night being like, I heard about you in the cast audition. I heard that you slayed it. Congrats. Like that was that's how my audition went, that it was getting to the concert dance world. And I was receiving texts about like, how like, congrats, you booked it basically.

And I was like, Oh, I'm amazing. I'm the best. And I'm funny. I was just I was on cloud nine. So I'm waiting for my callback, which I was certain that I was gonna get. And there's this one part. I think the show was starting and every single one of the girls in my cast got a callback except for and I was like, Did you get a callback? Did you? Everybody's like, Yeah, I got my callback. Yeah, I got my guy. And I text my agent. I was like, Have you heard anything? You know? Nothing. Sorry. Yeah, it's really weird. I thought I would hear something. Okay, cool, cool. And there's this one part, like right before this one dance number, that I always stretch in the back of the stage. And like, where people do crossovers, and I was stretching with like this beautiful costume.

And you know, it was a beautiful moment. And I was fully crying. I fully cried. I was so sad. I was crying over my legs stretching about to go do a happy dance number and finding Neverland. And because I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe that I didn't get a callback. And they like, I think they said, what did he say? Like, the only feedback was, we just weren't into her. Which is, you know, not helpful.

[23:06] Emma Sofia: Is that amazing? We just weren't into her. I was like, Oh, okay. Cool. Great. They weren't into me. Okay. Fine. Yeah. What a world.

[23:22] Emma Sofia: I was just so bamboozled. My I was bamboozled because I was so I was so sure I was, I was just, you know, I thought that I was Sylvie Guillaume, who's like my favorite, incredible prima ballerina, I was I was sure that I got it. So cut to like a month later. Everybody booked, like they had all booked cats, they were starting the the workshop, my friends were all in it. I was like, super jealous. And but I was like, whatever, I don't care. Fuck you. Cats stupid anyways, Jellicle, whatever, who cares. And then I got an audition for Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. And then I booked Veruca Salt.

[24:06] Emma Sofia: Yeah. And it's conflicted with cats. So the moral of the story is, always know who you are. Because they didn't want, they didn't want a personality like mine. They wanted something different. Because I've came in there, you know, who knows? Who knows? It doesn't matter. What matters is that I stayed true to myself, because I am an idiot. And I love making people laugh and being extra. So I stayed true to myself. And I didn't get the job that I thought that I wanted. But because I stayed true to myself, and I still put that same fervor, and that same extremity into my audition for Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, I ended up booking a principal role that I got to create in pointe shoes. And I got to live my ballet dreams. Which I think my next question was gonna be, which I think you just answered was, would you do anything differently? And no, no, no. Go right back in maybe, maybe not, you know, a cat onesie instead of a tiger onesie next time.

[25:14] Emma Sofia: Next time, next time I'm gonna paint my face. I'm gonna get the leg warmers. I'm gonna get the hand warmers. I'm gonna do ears. Just go kids, because we only have one life to live. I'm not going to take something so seriously. That is so silly. Because look at the show. It's a silly show. Like I'm going to take it seriously. What I'm going to take seriously is the work, the technique, and the commitment to the work. But I'm not going to take myself.

[27:16] Mike Abrams: On the show, and I'm curious to hear your take, if you agree with me or not. I want to talk about your show. I want you to tell me a little bit about it, but then for anyone who hasn't had a chance to see it yet, only three episodes in, but then I want to go through each one of the main characters, and I want to pick out which cat they'd be. And I've done a lot more thinking than I probably should admit that I've done about this for who they should be, and I have some, but I want to hear what you think as well. But first, tell me a little bit, tell me more about the show, tell me about what it's like, how it's been, and for anybody that's listening that hasn't had a chance to see it, what they're going to get.

[28:35] Emma Sofia: Well, so I'm doing this new ABC sitcom called Call Your Mother. It's on on Wednesdays at 9:30. It is, it's a show about an empty nester. The mom is played by Keira Sedgwick, and she isn't able to reach her son, because she's an empty nester in Indiana, I believe. She's in Iowa. She's in Iowa. I was very grateful that it wasn't going to just rain on an Indiana prairie. No, it's in Iowa. We can pick on Iowa today, that's great. And she calls her son, she can't reach him, so she moves, or she goes to LA spontaneously without telling him, and then ends up staying in LA because she wants to keep her family together because the dad died when the kids were young. So I play her son's girlfriend, who's like a social media influencer.

She's basically like an alien to Jean's character, to Keira Sedgwick's character. So she's like the opposite of Jean. She's Latina, she's a social media influencer, she's very outspoken, she's very opinionated, she's very honest, she's very blunt, she knows what she wants, she's a businesswoman, she's very clear. So they kind of butt heads. Yeah, and it's fun, you know, it's a really light show, it's for everyone. I think the appeal for the show today, in this day and age, and what's happening in our world, is just to bring lightness and joy and laughter and just kind of an escape to everyday life, because also the show is set in post-quarantine.

[30:20] Mike Abrams: Yeah, and it even calls to that a little bit. I noticed the last episode was called Quarantine, I think it was kind of pulling off of that. I also do appreciate that there are a wide variety of characters, which means that there's probably someone in the cast that is relatable to most personalities. There's so many people in the cast that you can relate to from different walks of life. My favorite, I shouldn't say my favorite, but I'm honest, Sherry Shepard is on the show. She's now a recurring role. She started as a guest, and she plays Jean's best friend, and she's just like such a breath of fresh air, just in general, in life. I love her so much, but she's a great role. She's just kind of like the best friend who likes to watch bad TV and wants to critique everything, and she just gives her opinion, and she's just really funny.

And Austin Crewe plays Lane, who's Rachel Sennett, who plays Jackie, who's Freddie's sister. He plays the gay roommate that you'll see later on the episodes, he does music, and he's really sassy and fun, and his own unique person. Everybody's just bringing themselves to the table, and we all really like each other, which is amazing and doesn't always happen in life and jobs, but I'm really lucky that we really are having a lot of fun on doing this show about reconnecting to family and about joy.

[32:05] Emma Sofia: Yeah. I've thoroughly enjoyed it. I mean, it's three episodes in, and when we're recording this, I don't know how many we'll have by the time it's launched, but while recording, there's been three episodes, so I'm basing all of my knowledge off the first three episodes. And I want to hear what you think. So I'm going to go through each character, and I want you to tell me who you think they would be, like which cat they relate to.

[32:26] Emma Sofia: Oh, I'm going to be bad at this, by the way.

[32:28] Mike Abrams: That's okay. I'm ready for the answers, too. So first is Jean.

[32:35] Emma Sofia: Jean, I think she has to be Grizabella, right? Doesn't she have to be Grizabella?

[32:42] Mike Abrams: In character? I had her as Jenny Annie Dots, which is like the mom character.

[32:50] Emma Sofia: Oh, I don't even remember who that is.

[32:53] Mike Abrams: Okay, we might just run through these. You should say them first, and then I should just agree or disagree.

[32:59] Emma Sofia: Okay. Listening to this is going to be like, wow, she's useless. You know Victoria, right?

[33:05] Mike Abrams: I know Victoria.

[33:07] Emma Sofia: Okay. Okay, so who would be your character?

[33:15] Mike Abrams: It's the two sexy cats who sing the duet.

[33:20] Emma Sofia: Demeter and Pom.

[33:21] Mike Abrams: Demeter. I think that Celia would be Demeter.

[33:24] Emma Sofia: Oh, that's a good... Okay. I actually thought you'd be Victoria.

[33:27] Mike Abrams: Victoria.

[33:28] Emma Sofia: But Victoria's too innocent and pure for Celia.

[33:34] Mike Abrams: I actually have that written, too. So I agree with you there. But I also put Grizabella. There's a lot of theories that Grizabella is Victoria, but she went through some stuff.

[33:48] Emma Sofia: You're right. And so I actually think your character is somewhere in between those two. You're hopefully not going too far down that path to Grizabella's world, but your character has a little bit of that. Celia has a lot more sass. I feel like...

[34:00] Mike Abrams: Yeah, which would be Pom and Demeter. So that does work. She has a lot more sass and a lot more confidence.

[34:12] Emma Sofia: Okay, so let's go to... I had Jackie, the sister, placed as one of those two.

[34:20] Mike Abrams: Really?

[34:20] Emma Sofia: But she's a little bit more reserved, it feels like.

[34:26] Mike Abrams: She's a little more reserved.

[34:29] Emma Sofia: And I don't want to say dorky. That's such a terrible adjective. Because I also don't want to give away how her character develops in the show on Call Your Mother. But I think...

[34:45] Mike Abrams: Because she has depth to her, also. She's not innocent and pure or sexy and confident.

[34:56] Emma Sofia: So let me tell you the depth of Demeter's character, then. Because I've spent, again, 30 plus episodes thinking about just the storyline of this. Nothing else. Not the dancing, the singing, or anything else. Just purely how it was written of a story. And I generally base most of my thought in sitcoms. Because that's the type of TV I love. Demeter's character is, in theory, in some versions of this, in an abusive relationship with one of the other cats. So there's a lot of depth to that character that doesn't get as much visibility into there. So that's kind of how I... Like, Rockham Plugger is the whole... He's the abuser.

[35:36] Mike Abrams: No, it's Macavity.

[35:37] Emma Sofia: Macavity.

[35:39] Mike Abrams: Macavity, Macavity. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. It's all coming, screaming back to me.

[35:45] Emma Sofia: Yeah. The VHS is rewinding into your mind.

[35:50] Mike Abrams: I also did see it on Broadway.

[35:52] Emma Sofia: Okay.

[35:52] Mike Abrams: So yeah, you saw the revival. And Samantha Sturm, I think, played Demeter. And it was amazing.

[36:02] Mike Abrams: What about your boyfriend? What about the son, Freddie?

[36:04] Emma Sofia: I had a lot of trouble with Freddie. Because I don't think there's a parallel.

[36:08] Mike Abrams: There's not.

[36:12] Emma Sofia: I was thinking Mungojerrie and Rumpelteazer are like Emma and Joey's dynamic.

[36:19] Mike Abrams: Like us in real life, our dynamic is Mungojerrie and Rumpelteazer.

[36:24] Emma Sofia: Oh, that's fun. Okay. I actually had a director session with John Hooper to play Rumpelteazer for the movie.

[36:35] Mike Abrams: Really? Fun fact.

[36:37] Emma Sofia: They did that as the original British version.

[36:41] Mike Abrams: They did.

[36:42] Emma Sofia: And so I sang the slow one. It was like, Mungojerrie and Rumpelteazer, we're...

[36:50] Mike Abrams: It was a different melody. Because I remember asking all my Cats friends to be like, what is this melody? And they were like, what? Because it was for the film. It was different. I had to have a whole session. It was a whole thing. It was very different. I was not prepared for that. Because that was one of my favorite parts when I saw the revival the first time. I saw it twice. The first time I saw it, I knew nothing about it. Walked in, walked out, mesmerized. Wasn't told anything. Didn't know the history. Never watched the VHS.

[37:20] Emma Sofia: Oh my God. Just had a bad ticket. Yeah, and was dead sober, which was a mistake. And so that was the one song that I sang for like a week.

[37:31] Mike Abrams: Wow. And then when the movie came, I heard the...

[37:34] Emma Sofia: You're like, what?

[37:34] Mike Abrams: Remix version, or I guess really it's the original.

[37:37] Emma Sofia: It's the original. I was not happy because I was really excited to see how they did that scene.

[37:41] Mike Abrams: Yeah, they made it different. But I almost looked at another almost.

[37:47] Emma Sofia: Well, it wasn't almost for the Broadway one. Did you wear your white?

[37:51] Mike Abrams: No, it was on Skype because he was in England, John Hooper. But do you know what he said? He was like, Andy Blankenbuehler had the best things to say about you. And I was like, oh, oh, he did? Wow.

[38:08] Emma Sofia: Isn't that funny? Life is funny.

[38:11] Mike Abrams: It is. It is interesting. It's kind of fascinating just how everything kind of sometimes comes full circle. And that was a full circle moment for me, because the Broadway audition really, you know, it was a moment. It was a traumatic moment for me. That was my redemption. I was like, well, I'm going to be in the movie, but then I didn't get the movie. So let's run into rapid fire. And we'll lead to kind of the last my last question.

[38:40] Mike Abrams: I'll give you my argument, but I'd be curious to hear if you want to agree or disagree with me. But first thing is, who did you really... I know you said you wanted to just be anybody, but if you had to pick a choice, which character would you want to play?

[38:54] Emma Sofia: I would want to play... I have two answers, because I do want to do the Victoria solo, just because it's such a beautiful adagio, and just the ballerina in me would love to do that. But I think I would want to play Demeter. Now, I want to reframe this question for The Rabbifier. What if you just ignore, like, this is my skill set, this is what I'm good at? If I could do anybody, would that change your answer? If I could be anybody, I think I'd want to be Macavity.

[39:30] Mike Abrams: The villain.

[39:31] Emma Sofia: The villain, because that's so fun. Yeah, I feel like with everything you've told me... And he's so like, ehhh.

[39:39] Mike Abrams: With everything you've told me so far, I feel like you would do Macavity or Rum Tug Tugger, like the rock star.

[39:44] Emma Sofia: Yeah, yeah, yeah. The rock star. That's what I meant. I didn't mean Macavity. See, I always get those two mixed up. I'm terrible. Useless. I want to be Rum Tug Tugger.

[39:54] Mike Abrams: Extra role.

[39:55] Emma Sofia: The Terrence Mann role.

[39:57] Mike Abrams: Yes. It was Tyler Haynes in the revival.

[39:59] Emma Sofia: Yes. Tyler Haynes. Yes. Okay. I feel like, yeah, that would be... Yeah. I want to be Rum Tug Tugger.

[40:05] Mike Abrams: You would have a lot of fun with the personality of doing...

[40:08] Emma Sofia: Oh, yeah.

[40:10] Mike Abrams: What is your favorite and least favorite character in the show?

[40:19] Emma Sofia: Oh, my God. I don't know. I think my favorite character maybe is... What's the little one who sings, like the memory? What is it?

[40:35] Mike Abrams: Grisabella is the main one.

[40:36] Emma Sofia: Not Grisabella. Not the old one that sings memory, but the little one who she... So, it depends on the production I've learned, but I think it's one of the younger... It's one of the younger. That little... It's one of the younger... That little tiny kitten that she comes out and then she sings memory like an octave up. It's the cutest moment. And I think it's so precious. And I love that moment.

[41:05] Mike Abrams: Okay. So, that's your favorite. What about least favorite? Do you have anybody that you just...

[41:09] Emma Sofia: I mean, I liked the tap number because it was this amazing tapper on the Broadway show, but I could do without the tap number, I guess.

[41:20] Mike Abrams: Okay. So, that's the mom. That's the one that in the movie also gets a little weird.

[41:24] Emma Sofia: Yeah. I could do without it because I'm like, okay, I get it. Again, if you're talking about skill set, skill set, I admired it. I respected it. She was fabulous. But I was like, why? They're in unitards. I want to see ballet and contemporary dance. I want them in the floor. I want them crouched. I want them on all fours. I want to see dance. I don't want to see no tap. That was just my...

[41:54] Mike Abrams: I love it.

[41:57] Emma Sofia: I love it because you're coming from your lens and I watch this from a totally different view as an outsider just having no idea. I don't know anything about contemporary dance. I don't know anything about ballet. I don't know about any of this. And I'm just like, that looked hard.

[42:10] Emma Sofia: Yeah, it is hard.

[42:11] Mike Abrams: It is hard. And that's why I love it so much because you don't understand. These dancers, and especially, it's a raked stage. The stage is tilted.

[42:20] Emma Sofia: Really?

[42:21] Mike Abrams: It's a raked stage. So, a normal Broadway stage is flat. But a raked stage, it comes from the Shakespearean days that to give better sound, like in a proscenium, the stage would be tilted down. So, it tilts towards the...

[42:38] Emma Sofia: And so that everybody could see in an arena. So, it was better for optics and for audio if the stage was raked. So, it's an old school thing. So, whenever you have a raked stage, like in this day and age, it's just evil because it's so hard on the body. Like even walking on a slanted stage, you are prone to injury. So, if you are dancing the choreography of Cats on a raked stage, the amount of respect I have for those dancers is like through the roof.

[43:11] Emma Sofia: I never knew that.

[43:13] Mike Abrams: Phenomenal.

[43:14] Emma Sofia: It makes it even more impressive because you see all these things. And if it's like, oh, you're on your toe and it's pointed down, like the stage is pointed down.

[43:21] Mike Abrams: Yeah. So, think about what that does to their legs.

[43:24] Emma Sofia: Yeah. Wow. So, you learn something new. I know so little about this anyway. These dancers are the best dancers on Broadway, the best dancers in the country. They're phenomenal.

[43:35] Mike Abrams: Well, and that was when I first saw it. And the whole premise of this came up. I was very angry at the writing of the story. And I was like, but everything else, the singing, the dancing, everything else, that looked really impressive. This is like top of their field, really cool, really unique, really different. But I was like, but this story has some flaws.

[44:01] Emma Sofia: Oh, yeah.

[44:01] Mike Abrams: And that is where I've kind of spent all my time. I didn't even understand what it was. Even when I was in the audience at the Broadway stage, I was with my friend. And I was like, what just happened? When it ended, I was like, what? I didn't even know that she died. I was so confused.

[44:17] Emma Sofia: Yeah. I mean, they murder a cat to end the show.

[44:19] Mike Abrams: I was so confused. I was like, the moon is coming down. I was like, what? I also was not sober, so.

[44:27] Emma Sofia: I wish I was given that recommendation. I was not.

[44:29] Mike Abrams: I was like, what's happening?

[44:31] Emma Sofia: The first time. Okay. Last question is favorite song from the show.

[44:42] Emma Sofia: I love the song that Colin did.

[44:45] Mike Abrams: The Skimbleshanks.

[44:45] Emma Sofia: With the train. I loved it just because it was Colin. He's phenomenal. Yeah. I have a beef, which I discussed with him. And I don't know if his episode will be out. And I don't know if his episode will be out by the time this one's out. So I'll save most of my beef that I discussed with him.

[45:02] Mike Abrams: Okay. Okay. I'll have to listen.

[45:07] Emma Sofia: I was traumatized by his particular... The way that they designed the set, shined a light into the crowd. And it blinded me.

[45:18] Mike Abrams: Like, it hit me.

[45:19] Emma Sofia: Traumatizing. And so I remember being like, oh, this is fun. This is fun. This is fun. And then I was just like... The minute it hit me, I couldn't see. I was like, I don't like this cat anymore.

[45:28] Mike Abrams: You were personally offended.

[45:30] Emma Sofia: So I had a very long conversation with Colin about that.

[45:33] Mike Abrams: I understand.

[45:34] Emma Sofia: But it is a fun scene in general.

[45:38] Mike Abrams: It's a fun scene. And Colin was just so good.

[45:41] Emma Sofia: Yeah. And they build a train. That's cool.

[45:43] Mike Abrams: That was a big deal.

[45:45] Emma Sofia: Yeah. It makes absolutely no sense. I don't know why.

[45:48] Mike Abrams: I don't know the motivation for it. But I was along for the ride.

[45:52] Emma Sofia: He's the railway cat.

[45:53] Mike Abrams: Sure.

[45:54] Emma Sofia: That's it. That's the whole time. That's the whole time. There's not a lot else besides that he's the railway cat.

[45:57] Mike Abrams: If I took a cat's quiz right now, I would fail.

[46:07] Emma Sofia: I can answer one line of questioning only. And that's it. And that's all I know is the story.

[46:13] Mike Abrams: Okay. The story.

[46:14] Emma Sofia: The same thing. You could say, oh, this person did this. Or what's the little offbeat cat who said this? I'm like, I don't know. But I do know that that number was not the way that they should have been. And this is the story here. And this is what happened. And that's my last question, which is I have argued. And the reason this whole thing exists is that I don't think Grisabella should have been the cat to die at the end.

[46:34] Emma Sofia: She shouldn't have been the choice to die. It's a reward.

[46:40] Mike Abrams: I know you probably haven't put any thought into this.

[46:42] Emma Sofia: Yeah.

[46:43] Mike Abrams: But do you agree or disagree with me? Do you think she was the right choice?

[46:47] Emma Sofia: Let's just talk about the lifespan of a cat in general, like an actual cat, like they live. I had a cat that lived to 17 years. By that time, it's like, just put the cat out of their misery. I feel like Grisabella was like, she was 18. It was time.

[47:10] Mike Abrams: It was time.

[47:11] Emma Sofia: She needed to go.

[47:13] Mike Abrams: It was her time.

[47:14] Emma Sofia: Yeah. With that argument, though, that argument is the argument for the character, Gus, who is even older.

[47:19] Mike Abrams: Oh, Gus.

[47:21] Emma Sofia: Oh, I forgot about him.

[47:24] Mike Abrams: And he's the number one argument against her.

[47:27] Emma Sofia: You're absolutely right.

[47:30] Mike Abrams: You're absolutely right. There's so many of them.

[47:35] Emma Sofia: Oh, there's yeah, there's like 25 characters total, I think. And there's some that are playing multiple. Each one's got the songs. I think there's, I found that there's like nine that really, I thought were contending for the right to die.

[47:50] Mike Abrams: Okay.

[47:51] Emma Sofia: Because I looked at it as a singing competition. Do you think that Macavity should die? Because he's the villain?

[47:55] Mike Abrams: No, Macavity is too villainous. Like he didn't-

[47:59] Emma Sofia: You need him.

[48:00] Mike Abrams: He didn't deserve it. But it depends on how you-

[48:04] Emma Sofia: Oh, because this is a good thing, because we want-

[48:06] Mike Abrams: It's a good thing, yeah.

[48:07] Emma Sofia: Okay, who deserves the prize?

[48:10] Mike Abrams: So it depends on how you examine it. Most people examine it with Grizabella's the redemption story.

[48:17] Emma Sofia: True.

[48:17] Mike Abrams: Or Gus is the older one that's lived his life and should go. Those are the two kind of common arguments. I argued that this was because I saw it with Leona Lewis, The X Factor. And it's a singing competition. And so I wanted to see who had the best performance. Who was the most entertaining for me? Who did I remember most? And that to me was Tugger and Mistoffelees.

[48:42] Emma Sofia: Oh, yeah, Mistoffelees.

[48:45] Mike Abrams: And so that is how I argued that.

[48:47] Emma Sofia: I agree with anything you say.

[48:51] Mike Abrams: I appreciate the support. I know I've spent more time thinking about this, but I really wanted to hear. And I'm glad because not only did I get to hear about your audition, but I also, I just love the message behind it, which is like, I know what I'm capable of doing. I'm going to go own it. I'm going to go. I think I was made to believe by your friend that it was like, I thought I was expecting full cat hair wig.

[49:14] Emma Sofia: Well, it's Colin telling the story. So if he told the story, he's like, she was in the White House. And then Obama came out.

[49:25] Mike Abrams: Yeah, no, come on. But I do love that you just owned your truth.

[49:31] Emma Sofia: That was my truth.

[49:33] Mike Abrams: And went with it, and it all worked out. In the long run, it all worked out because you're on ABC now.

[49:38] Emma Sofia: Because I'm on ABC now.

[49:41] Mike Abrams: And I'm going to get a white unitard somewhere into ABC just for this podcast.

[49:48] Emma Sofia: Just for this moment.

[49:49] Mike Abrams: I'm going to find a way to get me in a white long-sleeved unitard just for you, Mike.

[49:55] Emma Sofia: Social influencer.

[49:56] Mike Abrams: Oh, yeah. I'm going to find that picture of me in the white unitard.

[50:03] Emma Sofia: The Capizio Dance Store.

[50:06] Mike Abrams: I would love to include it in the description and everything in this episode.

[50:11] Emma Sofia: I need to find it.

[50:12] Mike Abrams: I need to. That would be phenomenal to include that for the visual, for this audio form.

[50:20] Emma Sofia: Oh, my God. So my last question is, how can we find you on social media, stay in touch with you?

[50:27] Emma Sofia: My social media, my Instagram and my Twitter are different, I think. It's Emma Kaymarez on Instagram. And then it's Emma Sophia Kay on Twitter. I'm new to Twitter. I just got a Twitter like a month ago.

[50:43] Mike Abrams: OK.

[50:43] Emma Sofia: Are you enjoying it? Are you tweeting a lot?

[50:47] Emma Sofia: It's so funny and ironic that I play a social media influencer. Because social media is a funny little dimension. It has its purposes. And it has its ups, its pros. But I just, I just, I just preferred the real world.

[51:09] Mike Abrams: I mean, absolutely. Well, thank you for being here, for being on this episode. And thanks, everyone, for listening to this episode of The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breaking down the cat's catastrophe. To follow along, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher or anywhere else you listen to podcasts. Follow us on Twitter and Instagram at TheWrongCatDied or check out our website, TheWrongCatDied.com.