This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Meghan: Hello, welcome back, queers.

[0:03] Harrow Sansom Thesis: This is episode one, season three of Thesis on Joan.

[0:12] Meghan: Thesis on Joan is a podcast dedicated to amplifying voices from the LGBTQ community in the New York performing arts scene and examining the industry from a queer perspective.

[0:22] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Join us as we sit down with groundbreaking theater folks, both on stage and behind the curtain.

[0:28] Meghan: For many queers, theater has been an escape, and this podcast looks to have open conversations on where we've come from and where we're headed as a community while queering the canon along the way.

[0:40] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Hi Meghan, we're back.

[0:41] Meghan: I missed you.

[0:43] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I know.

[0:43] Meghan: It really does feel like it's been so long.

[0:46] Harrow Sansom Thesis: It does.

[0:46] Meghan: I'm glad I'm really glad we took such a long break, but I did miss talking to you in this form, even though I talked to you a lot while we were on break.

[0:53] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, that's true.

[0:55] Meghan: We needed the break from like the paperwork side of it, I guess.

[1:00] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, definitely.

[1:01] Meghan: But yeah, we're here.

[1:03] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I can't believe it's season three as well.

[1:05] Meghan: I know we said this for season two, but like I yeah, thinking back.

[1:09] Harrow Sansom Thesis: We started talking about this in 2019.

[1:11] Meghan: Wow.

[1:12] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Here we are.

[1:12] Meghan: Before the world completely changed.

[1:15] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And to that point, it's like this season, I feel like we're kind of getting back to what we actually intended the podcast to be from the very beginning.

[1:24] Meghan: Yeah.

[1:24] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And I feel just approaching that kind of format in such a different mindset from 2019.

[1:31] Meghan: But it's really exciting, and it's really cool to look back at all the people we've talked to in the last three seasons or two seasons, and I'm very excited about the guests we have coming up this year too.

[1:41] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, and it's like so exciting to like see these people we've been excited about, or even people that we've talked to, and now they have their work up and they're doing the thing.

[1:50] Meghan: And I know we said that last year, but now it's like in person.

[1:54] Harrow Sansom Thesis: So I feel like I'm more in a flow of like going to see theater now too, so I feel a lot more comfortable doing it.

[2:00] Meghan: And yeah, I'm like, oh, I've renewed my TDF subscription.

[2:03] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I'm like, okay, we're gonna go see some stuff.

[2:06] Meghan: Hopefully, we can make it through this spring without another surge.

[2:09] Harrow Sansom Thesis: We'll see.

[2:10] Meghan: Yeah, I hope so.

[2:11] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And I just feel like the way that we've been talking about theater, like outside of this, as I was thinking back this morning to how we were talking about Wicked and how most of our conversation was like how it was weird to be in this space and like how safe we felt.

[2:25] Meghan: And I feel like I that didn't really come up at all.

[2:28] Harrow Sansom Thesis: The show we're about to talk about.

[2:29] Meghan: We didn't really have that conversation.

[2:31] Harrow Sansom Thesis: So yeah.

[2:32] Meghan: Now that I've seen several shows and like I have KN95 masks and the you know the vaccine and the mask mandate still in place with theaters, I still feel pretty good going at this point.

[2:45] Harrow Sansom Thesis: We'll see.

[2:46] Meghan: Yeah, for the things that seem worth the risk.

[2:49] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah.

[2:50] Meghan: Um, so this season we are going to do a mix of talking a little more in depth about shows and also include some really amazing interviews.

[3:00] Harrow Sansom Thesis: So there won't be as many interviews as there were in season one or two when we didn't actually have the opportunity to go see any shows, very few shows.

[3:10] Meghan: Um, so it's just gonna be a little different around here, but we're excited to kind of get back to doing what we love beyond interviewing, which is talking about shows we've seen.

[3:18] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, we're queering our own format, which yes, what we should be doing.

[3:25] Meghan: Yep.

[3:27] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Perfect way to put it.

[3:29] Meghan: Uh, so we have been seeing some things since we last talked on the podcast.

[3:36] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Um, what's something that you'd like to shout out that you saw, Meghan?

[3:39] Meghan: Yeah, well, I'll do a quick shout out that I saw one of the Ring of Keys Queering the Canon concerts.

[3:46] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I watched the streaming version of the Candor and Ebb concert, and it was very fun.

[3:50] Meghan: Um, it's such a cool concept um where they take, you know, uh composers, musical theater writers, and they kind of it's like half uh a tribute concert where they sing through some of their songs, and then also they have queer and trans writers write um new versions of those songs or songs that are like based or inspired by the original Candor and Ebb songs.

[4:15] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Uh, and they're all it's all sung by Keys members, uh, so it's a very queer trans uh cast.

[4:22] Meghan: Um, our previous guests were a part of this executive producer, Andrea Prestonario.

[4:27] Harrow Sansom Thesis: She also performed, and Dion McLean Freeney was the music director, and uh one of her songs was also performed too.

[4:34] Meghan: Awesome.

[4:35] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, it was such a great queer cabaret night of theater.

[4:38] Meghan: But I wanted to talk more in depth about uh I saw Wolf Play by Hansol Jung and directed by Dustin Wills, and that was at Soho Rep.

[4:47] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, this one it was it was complicated for me.

[4:49] Meghan: It's it's an adoptee story, and I'm an adoptee.

[4:52] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Um, and it told the story of a young Korean boy who was rehomed basically.

[5:01] Meghan: Um, he was adopted into a white family, and that white family suddenly got pregnant again.

[5:07] Harrow Sansom Thesis: They had another child, um, and there were some like behavior issues with the Korean child, and they decided to put him up for readoption on the internet.

[5:18] Meghan: Uh, and he uh there's another uh interracial queer couple who um decided to adopt him, and it was a kind of a surprise to one of the uh the people in the couple, and who like really didn't agree with uh the way it was done because it was it was all through the internet and like there was no like agency involvement or anything, questionable legal things happening.

[5:43] Harrow Sansom Thesis: What the heck?

[5:43] Meghan: Yeah.

[5:44] Harrow Sansom Thesis: So it was very upsetting because you know the child had no agency, uh, and he was obviously having a lot of like behavioral issues because you know he felt really unsafe.

[5:55] Meghan: Um, and the puppet was or sorry, the the child was portrayed as a puppet.

[6:00] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I was like, Oh, okay.

[6:02] Meghan: There is a puppet.

[6:03] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Oh my gosh.

[6:05] Meghan: What a weird slip.

[6:06] Harrow Sansom Thesis: But no, there's actually a puppet.

[6:08] Meghan: The the adoptee was played by a puppet, uh, and and an actor who um was kind of like the host of the evening, and he like introduced the play, and then he um controlled the puppet throughout the show.

[6:22] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Uh, which also had me question like the actor who played the child was didn't appear to be Korean.

[6:31] Meghan: And I bet he is, you know, part Asian, part Korean, but it really disturbed me that it kind of looked like a white presenting person was playing this Asian child, even if it was a puppet.

[6:44] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And I think it just suffered from like a lot of what adoptee stories suffer from, or that the soul the focus was all about the parents and like how they were feeling.

[6:53] Meghan: And uh since the adoptee was a puppet, we didn't get um a lot from the child.

[7:00] Harrow Sansom Thesis: That's I was gonna ask you.

[7:01] Meghan: Would you have preferred it to be like a child actor instead of instead of a puppet?

[7:05] Harrow Sansom Thesis: It's it's hard.

[7:06] Meghan: It's like seeing a really dark show with a with a child character.

[7:10] Harrow Sansom Thesis: It's like, oh, I don't want to actually put a child through that, but I do want more perspective from the child.

[7:16] Meghan: Like, because they had an adult man portraying the child.

[7:19] Harrow Sansom Thesis: So I'm like, oh, I'd almost rather them not have the puppet and have him, you know, just pretend to be a child.

[7:25] Meghan: I don't know.

[7:26] Harrow Sansom Thesis: But the puppet was amazing.

[7:28] Meghan: Like I had so many feelings about this puppet, and the puppetry was done really well.

[7:34] Harrow Sansom Thesis: But yeah, it was it was a little upsetting that um, like I said, about the race thing.

[7:39] Meghan: And then I do have to shout out the actor who played one of the the queer couple parents, um, Esco Julet, who is incredible.

[7:47] Harrow Sansom Thesis: They have this uh they're um training to be a professional boxer, they're uh trans person, and they decided they were gonna fight uh in a professional match with other men, and it was gonna be like the first, you know, trans person to be uh in in this like echelon of fighting.

[8:07] Meghan: And their character was very like against the adoption.

[8:11] Harrow Sansom Thesis: They were like, I can't believe these people would do this to this child, and then like slowly they have like the strongest bond to the child, and like yeah, it was really it that was really beautiful to see, and they had like this amazing boxing number that you would have died for.

[8:26] Meghan: Um I think you like texted me right after this.

[8:30] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I think it was very impressive.

[8:34] Meghan: Um, but yeah, and I I didn't do my research before the show.

[8:37] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I figured that the playwright was an adoptee, uh, and it and from what I've read online, I don't think they are.

[8:44] Meghan: Uh so that also I'm like, oh, I wish more adoption stories were actually told by adoptees.

[8:50] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I was also confused by the queer aspects of the couple.

[8:53] Meghan: Like, so there was this whole aspect of the story where um the white woman in the queer couple, her brother, who has played by a black actor, was very against the adoption as well.

[9:03] Harrow Sansom Thesis: But just because he's like, I don't like what this is doing to your family, and you're like coddling this child and it's taking up all your energy, and like you don't have enough time for me.

[9:13] Meghan: What he was also Ash's boxing coach, and he's like, Oh, you're now you're distracted and you're not doing well with boxing, so you should just like send this child back to the original family, basically.

[9:26] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Oh my god.

[9:27] Meghan: Um, and then he like he starts a relationship with the original, the first adoptive parent's dad.

[9:34] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And they basically form a plot to get the child back because the origin the first adoptive dad is like, oh, I want him back.

[9:42] Meghan: And it doesn't make any sense to me, like why the brother would do that.

[9:45] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Like very, very important boxing motives.

[9:51] Meghan: But there's a lot of like twists to this, like Yeah, yeah.

[9:55] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I don't know.

[9:56] Meghan: It seems like they packed a lot in.

[9:58] Harrow Sansom Thesis: It was a very emotional show.

[10:00] Meghan: It doesn't end well for the child, um, as adoption, you know, stories kind of end up typically.

[10:07] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Um, but yeah, it was it was interesting to see like how the queerness of the couple did actually come into play.

[10:16] Meghan: Like I thought it would be like, oh, it's not a big deal, like they're a queer couple, that's fine.

[10:20] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And then it turned out that the first adoptive family dad was super homophobic, and that was one of the main reasons why he wanted the kid back.

[10:29] Meghan: Got it.

[10:30] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Um yeah, which seemed a little like outdated, but I guess you know, that's still happening where people are trying to take adoption away from queer couples.

[10:39] Meghan: But yeah, sure.

[10:40] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah.

[10:40] Meghan: I w you know, I I would have a hard time recommending this to an adoptee because it was so kind of emotionally scarring, but it was you know, it was a really uh well done play, I thought, uh, otherwise.

[10:52] Harrow Sansom Thesis: That wow I didn't know about the puppet aspect of it.

[10:59] Meghan: I didn't really understand the full story of it either.

[11:03] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Um it's not playing anymore, right?

[11:04] Meghan: It's done.

[11:05] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I don't yeah, I think the run is over.

[11:07] Meghan: Um they the play uh the script is published.

[11:10] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I saw it in the lobby.

[11:11] Meghan: But yeah, and I'm sure it'll have a life outside of New York.

[11:14] Harrow Sansom Thesis: It seems like a very good regional theater kind of community theater production.

[11:19] Meghan: Yeah.

[11:21] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Well, thank you for sharing it with us.

[11:23] Meghan: It's yeah, wasn't something that was on my radar.

[11:25] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah.

[11:25] Meghan: So um now something that's on everyone's radar.

[11:30] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And this is because I I haven't I haven't gotten to see a ton yet.

[11:34] Meghan: I've seen a few shows, and um, yeah, the only one I wanted to shout out, I won't talk about it too much because so many folks are talking about it, is the revival of Company and um a show that we wish was queer but is not.

[11:46] Harrow Sansom Thesis: In my heart.

[11:47] Meghan: Um I know.

[11:50] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I remember how excited I was when they announced that they were doing like the gender swap for Bobby, and then it's like, but wait, everyone else is working too?

[11:59] Meghan: Why?

[12:00] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Just like leave it the same.

[12:03] Meghan: Um they even like eliminated some of the queer undertones that were in the original.

[12:09] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Um because there's a bit you know, I I don't remember the character's name, but the one uh the one male identifying character like kind of comes on to male identifying Bobby, right?

[12:20] Meghan: And they they like took that out, even though they like why why did they not have the more femme character come on to female identifying Bobby?

[12:29] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I don't know.

[12:30] Meghan: Also, and Joanne hits on Bobby too at the end, and I thought they were putting that in, and they didn't.

[12:36] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah.

[12:37] Meghan: I will say the thing though that I really think is so interesting, like probably the thing that makes the gender swap the most interesting to me is Joanne and Bobby's relationship, because like I feel like in the original version, Joanne finds Bobby very like kind of entertaining and like just an interesting person to observe, like, and does come on to him, right?

[13:02] Harrow Sansom Thesis: So there's some attraction there, but it's more like, oh, this poor guy, like and just trying to guide him through life and tell him about how women are.

[13:09] Meghan: And then like when Joanne is talking to female Bobby, it's kind of like you are you are the lady who lunches, like you are the one that's fucked up.

[13:18] Meghan: It's like women putting down women, so it's a little more, yeah, I don't know, it darkens Joanne's character for me.

[13:24] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, no, I haven't thought about that.

[13:26] Meghan: Yeah, yeah, it's interesting, like which characters they swapped and which ones they left the same.

[13:30] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, yeah, like it's I I would argue too that the swap, besides like some very obvious, like beating you down with it things about like quote unquote biological clock, like it doesn't really do much to I think they could have taken it even further.

[13:49] Meghan: Um but yeah, it's I think it's in like the individual relationships that I find it really interesting. Can we talk about the this new like dream sequence they added where all the characters play Bobby in different like alternate versions of their life?

[14:09] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Of like baby having Bobby and like married Bobby.

[14:13] Meghan: It was cool from like a dire it was definitely like a here's my director's thesis scene, you know, but it was it was good, it was really cool and it was more haunting for sure.

[14:22] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Like a lot of this play is.

[14:24] Meghan: Yeah. I was just very confused when a black woman came on stage in Bobby's costume and started doing things. I'm like, wait, do we have an understudy now?

[14:34] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Oh my god.

[14:35] Meghan: And they go, yeah, but then soon a lot of Bobbies come out.

[14:39] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, so many Bobbies.

[14:42] Meghan: Yeah, another highlight of it is watching Patty LePon move chairs.

[14:46] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Um it is incredible.

[14:48] Meghan: Watching her do group choreography is just like it's worth the price of admission for like just seeing her in side by side moving chairs, doing the like hand jive.

[14:59] Harrow Sansom Thesis: It's so good.

[15:01] Meghan: What nonsense. Uh the Lame Miz story where why Fonteen isn't in like the barricade scenes is because in the original production in London, Patty like hid when that scene was being blocked, so she wouldn't have to be in it.

[15:17] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I didn't know that.

[15:19] Meghan: I think I read that in her memoir.

[15:22] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Oh yes.

[15:23] Meghan: Oh my god. When I saw it right before Ladies Who Lunch, what they had like a scenery malfunction, and as the bar set was coming forward with all the like dancers, they they it kind of like went on for a long time, and then eventually like someone came on the god mic and was like, oh, sorry, we're having a technical malfunction, we have to take a break.

[15:44] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Um, and then everything it just like took like five minutes and then everything was fine. But like as the set was coming forward, they're like dancing like in a club, and there's just like one actor who's in like a G string and like pulsing and he's like doing like groin thrusts and like I didn't even really notice that what was happening because I was just like watching this actor being like oh my god and I'm like, oh, this is interesting, and then it just went on for a really long time.

[16:12] Meghan: I almost wish it paused at that scene for me too, because what another highlight besides Patty moving chairs was Chris Siever wearing heels, like kittying up which what a delight.

[16:23] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Like I wish there was more of that in my life.

[16:26] Meghan: So good. But yeah, that show is just such a like I love that show so much. It's just a personal favorite.

[16:31] Harrow Sansom Thesis: But the um like seeing it again always makes me remember like this is the show is not about Bobby, it's about like all these incredible ensemble moments and like the kind of life around the character.

[16:45] Meghan: So it was the cast is so great. I I really liked this production.

[16:50] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Um Katrina Link's like fascinating to watch, right?

[16:54] Meghan: She's like an alien. I'd stare at her all day.

[16:56] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Um yeah, it's just like a hard song to a hard song, a hard score to switch to, yeah, a like female identifying vocal range.

[17:07] Meghan: I don't know. You know, it's like something about it gets a little lost in the changeover.

[17:12] Harrow Sansom Thesis: No fault of the actor, I think.

[17:13] Meghan: Yeah. And then it I would say like the opposite too. Like I watched their tiny desk concert before I saw the show, and I I was really excited about hearing Katrina Link sing Bobby's songs, but I wasn't prepared to hear men sing the women's songs.

[17:28] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And that definitely jarred me, and I'm like, oh no, I want I want to go back, but I got used to it.

[17:35] Meghan: To go back to before.

[17:37] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah.

[17:39] Meghan: Oh, we can never go back to before.

[17:41] Harrow Sansom Thesis: We never can.

[17:42] Meghan: It's true. Um I know you also are a Jenny Jennifer Samard fan.

[17:48] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Um so great.

[17:49] Meghan: She was the highlight of the show for me, I think.

[17:52] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah.

[17:53] Meghan: I wish I would have like, well, no, I wanted to see Patty, but when she was on for Joanne, can you imagine?

[17:59] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Probably so good.

[18:00] Meghan: I would love to see that.

[18:01] Harrow Sansom Thesis: So more from her. She's just so funny and specific, and also just what a beautiful voice that you can like hear over everybody else.

[18:13] Meghan: So strong. Yeah, again, like we always, or I always bring it up, like the people you always trust to sing things well.

[18:19] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Like she's always gonna knock it out of the park.

[18:21] Meghan: It's so good.

[18:22] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah. Well, maybe one day we can see her go on for Joanne.

[18:26] Meghan: Yeah.

[18:27] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Oh, so great. But yeah, it's it's definitely worth seeing. It was it was really good production.

[18:32] Meghan: And then there are things coming up, which is always exciting.

[18:36] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah.

[18:37] Meghan: New things to talk about. Molly, what are you excited for?

[18:40] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Uh one of our friends just saw See Seven Sins by Company 14.

[18:46] Meghan: So from the creator of Nutcracker Rouge and Queen of Hearts, you're cordially invited to give in to temptation and eat the apple with Adam and Eve in a mythical dreamscape inspired by the fall of man and the seven deadly sins.

[18:59] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Immerse your senses in Company 14's signature melange of athletic circus artists, virtuosics singers, baroque burlesque dancers, and lush design of seven sins, an elegant, hedonistic cavalcade of naughty feats and decadent treats.

[19:16] Meghan: Wow, so many high point scrabble words.

[19:18] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah.

[19:19] Meghan: It's a great description.

[19:21] Harrow Sansom Thesis: It is. And from the photos and videos I've seen, it just looks so fun and like decadent and lavish.

[19:28] Meghan: Um it is I looked at buying tickets and it is a little, it's pretty pricey. Like the tickets are a couple hundred dollars each, but I did see it on TDF for $33.

[19:39] Harrow Sansom Thesis: So keep your eye out for that.

[19:41] Meghan: Um, and they have tickets on sale through the end of August. So you've got a while to see this, but yeah, I'm I'm really excited to check this out. It looks very queer.

[19:50] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I feel like an August weekday. Does it have weekday shows or is it only a weekend?

[19:54] Meghan: I think it's like a Thursday through Sunday thing.

[19:57] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Makes sense.

[19:58] Meghan: Yeah.

[19:59] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah.

[19:59] Meghan: I would I would love to go see this too. It sounds like what I wanted, not that I ever saw it because it was too expensive. What I wanted Queen of the Night to be.

[20:07] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I saw it because I went I got a press ticket with my old boss.

[20:11] Meghan: Uh and it was very fun. And yeah, similar like burlesque elements, but it was very uncomfortable to see it with my boss.

[20:20] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Um there was a moment where a dancer came up to our table and they had like a big leather dildo, kind of like a saddle um uh I don't know what you call it, the thing you hold on to with a saddle.

[20:35] Meghan: Um it looked like that.

[20:38] Harrow Sansom Thesis: It wasn't the reins, it was like the stick thing at the front of the saddle.

[20:42] Meghan: Oh, I know what you're talking about.

[20:43] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, but it was like the horn.

[20:45] Meghan: Okay, we'll call it.

[20:46] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, but it was it's kind of that kind of a dildo, like on their groin, and they had us.

[20:53] Meghan: He had us both like put our hands on it and like whole boss song.

[20:59] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And then uh there's definitely a point where like they made everyone get up and like slow dance together, and it was oh, that's so awkward.

[21:06] Meghan: It was pretty awkward.

[21:08] Harrow Sansom Thesis: But uh the show was really fun.

[21:10] Meghan: So we got like dinner, so that was nice.

[21:13] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Right. Just don't go. This one also doesn't sound like one you want to go your supervisor to take a date, take you know, a friend with benefits, something someone you feel comfortable getting, you know, sexy with, but it sounds like you you're definitely gonna have to participate in some way, yeah.

[21:32] Meghan: For better or worse. I'm also super excited they just announced uh K-pop is coming to Broadway this fall, uh with an actual K-pop star who I'm not familiar with, but I'm gonna look her up.

[21:43] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Um so excited to see that.

[21:45] Meghan: Yay, more like Korean Asian casts on Broadway.

[21:49] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Uh and I didn't get to see it when it was at Arsenova, so very excited to see this production.

[21:55] Meghan: Yeah, same. I I remember not getting to see it and everyone being like, it's gonna transfer. We we didn't know how long it was gonna take, but here we are.

[22:03] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah. And I think it it was like in a warehouse, wasn't it? And like you kind of it was kind of like a sleep no more thing where you move from room to room.

[22:09] Meghan: Yeah, I know you definitely had to like you you didn't sit in one place, yeah.

[22:14] Harrow Sansom Thesis: So I'm a little sad I missed out on like that experience, but I'm sure the Broadway will be pretty exciting too.

[22:21] Meghan: I didn't know there's a K-pop star in it. That's really cool.

[22:23] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah.

[22:25] Meghan: I really I'm really curious to see like what the audience is gonna look like with a bunch of like K-pop stands in it.

[22:32] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, and I'm also like I don't know, I'll be curious when the ticket prices come out too, because I know plenty of my students would lose their mind over something like that.

[22:43] Meghan: But you know, depending on how the price range is. Like I I don't know. There's K-pop fans of all ages, but I know it's really popular with like Gen Z and whatever the generation under that is called.

[22:57] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, it's uh like when I was taking Korean classes in person pre-pandemic, there were definitely a couple people there who were like, I just really love K-pop and I wanna understand it better, so I'm here.

[23:08] Meghan: Love that.

[23:09] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah. What are you excited about?

[23:11] Meghan: Yeah, so we were at the public yesterday, which we're going to talk about more, but I um kind of forgot how many venues are in that space.

[23:20] Harrow Sansom Thesis: So walking through there, I was like, oh, I wonder what's going on at Joe's Pub.

[23:24] Meghan: So two very queer shows coming up.

[23:27] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Um the first one I'm shouting out, but I haven't committed yet to going because the shows all start at 9 30 or 10 o'clock.

[23:36] Meghan: And yeah, we've we know how this is.

[23:39] Harrow Sansom Thesis: You are you're on a school schedule now, too.

[23:41] Meghan: So it's very difficult to wake up at six after that.

[23:44] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Um, but it sounds so fun. It's Justin Vivian Bond's doing a show called Oh Mary, it's spring.

[23:51] Meghan: Playing May fifth through May 15th. Tickets are 45 bucks.

[23:54] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Um, and uh the blurb says to celebrate the arrival of spring and tar season, birthday what what is COW?

[24:04] Meghan: Birthday cow?

[24:05] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I have no idea what that means.

[24:06] Meghan: Okay.

[24:07] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Well, basically Justin Vivian Bond is getting together with a band.

[24:11] Meghan: Um it's songs by, for or about Mary's, brought to you by one of the most glamorous Marys from the mystical mythical myths of Maryland.

[24:21] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yes. Queerness will ensue.

[24:23] Meghan: So that is at the beginning of May.

[24:27] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And um, the next show we are getting tickets for.

[24:31] Meghan: Um, very excited about this. It's Taylor Mack and Matt Ray, one of Taylor Mack's frequent collaborators.

[24:39] Harrow Sansom Thesis: It's called Songs from the Bark of Millions.

[24:41] Meghan: And that's also playing at Joe's Pub.

[24:44] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Uh so the player for this is a new evening of original music celebrating queer luminaries throughout history.

[24:52] Meghan: Joined on stage by members of the band from Taylor's award-winning 24 decade history of popular music, some new friends, and costumes by Machine Dazzle, which if you've ever seen Taylor, costumes are always machine dazzle and they're always incredible.

[25:06] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Follow Judy on Instagram.

[25:07] Meghan: Yes, you must. That's yeah, you can't listen to this podcast without following Judy on Instagram.

[25:13] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Um yeah, there's six different shows.

[25:16] Meghan: Uh it starts on June 20th. There's two shows that week, four shows the following week, and as Judy is wont to do, every show is very different, which always gives me serious FOMO.

[25:28] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I'm like, I wish I could go to all of these.

[25:31] Meghan: Um the first two shows are shorter and cheaper.

[25:34] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Um they're 30 bucks, and I think they're 90 minutes, and then the last four shows are 120 minutes.

[25:41] Meghan: I think those are 45.

[25:42] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Um Joe's Pub always has a minimum, which I looked up, it's two drinks or $12 of food.

[25:48] Meghan: Okay, that's not terrible.

[25:50] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, it's not too bad.

[25:51] Meghan: Um, so we'll definitely be at uh Taylor Mack's show.

[25:55] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And if I can really commit to a big coffee the next morning, maybe Justin Vivian Bond show too.

[26:03] Meghan: Wow. Those are both exciting. The the Merry One reminds me of that book that just came out. I think it's called Sarah Land, but it's like um a book of essays all about women named Sarah, and there's one about Sarah Pulson.

[26:17] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Oh my gosh. It's supposed to be really good.

[26:20] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I have to add that to my list.

[26:21] Meghan: I haven't heard of that.

[26:22] Harrow Sansom Thesis: So we have some shows that we're planning to see, which we've already talked about a little bit or have seen that we wanted to discuss.

[26:29] Meghan: So we have tickets for colored girls who've considered suicide when the rainbow wasn't enough.

[26:34] Harrow Sansom Thesis: We're going to that and it's playing through August 14th on Broadway at the Booth Theater.

[26:41] Meghan: And I've never seen this show before, so...

[26:44] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Me either.

[26:45] Meghan: Super! I've read it, but yeah, I've never seen it.

[26:47] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And then we're also planning to see Strange Loop, which I feel like we've talked about so many times already on this podcast.

[26:54] Meghan: So excited.

[26:55] Harrow Sansom Thesis: It's starting very soon in April.

[26:57] Meghan: Well, when this podcast comes out, it'll already be in previews and it's opening at the Lyceum and it's an open-ended run.

[27:05] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Meghan, I know you're going to see How I Learned to Drive on Broadway, and that is open and selling through May 29th by Paula Vogel.

[27:14] Meghan: And I also caved and bought tickets to Funny Girl, probably because I binged all of Impeachment and then spent a long time looking at Beanie Feldstein and her girlfriend. So I'm going to see that next month.

[27:27] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And that is at the August Wilson Theater, also an open-ended run.

[27:31] Meghan: Nice.

[27:32] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And then last night we got to see together Suffs at The Public, which is playing there through now May 15th, the extended.

[27:41] Meghan: Suffs is primarily about the women's suffrage movement. It follows Alice Paul. It takes place between the years of 1915 to roughly 1923 and really focuses in on those moments of the fight for the 19th Amendment and all of the many interesting and strange things that happen along that route.

[28:05] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Book, music, and lyrics by Shaina Taub, directed by Lee Silverman, and choreography and creative consulting by Raja Feather Kelly.

[28:14] Meghan: And I feel like I've been hearing about this production for a while. Like over a year at least.

[28:21] Harrow Sansom Thesis: It's been, I don't even know how, but it's been in my brain that this is a thing that is going to happen. So it was very exciting, as I told you at length last night, to see something that was completely new for the first time. Everything I've seen so far has been revivals, maybe new productions, but just to be able to sit in the theater and take in something for the first time was really thrilling.

[28:44] Meghan: Yeah. This is the first new musical I've seen. I got to see On Sugarland at New York Theater Workshop, which was new.

[28:51] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Let's start with how big the cast is. Like it's a huge cast.

[28:54] Meghan: So many people.

[28:57] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Especially for an off-Broadway show.

[28:59] Meghan: Yeah. It's like a full stage and it's a pretty diverse ensemble, which is exciting to see.

[29:06] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah. There's, I feel like the first moment you knew this was gonna happen, they bring everybody out to show how big the cast is.

[29:12] Meghan: And yeah, I feel like we were both a little overwhelmed, like, oh, this is a lot of people.

[29:22] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And the way that the stage is set up is like these stairs, it's like a super rake. It's like the stairs to, you said it was like, I think Congress.

[29:33] Meghan: Yeah, Congress.

[29:34] Harrow Sansom Thesis: But because of that, you can really clearly see how many people there are. They're not really hidden behind other cast members, so it really creates a huge picture for you.

[29:46] Meghan: But everyone's so incredibly talented. And I know, you know, we talked about Philippa Soo is in this.

[29:52] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Well, you pointed it out that this is kind of the first time we've seen Philippa Soo do something very different. Like, what did you mean by that?

[29:58] Meghan: Yeah, I think most of the, I've seen her in Natasha, Pierre & The Great Comet of 1812 and Hamilton. And I didn't get to see Amélie, but I feel like both of those roles are very ingenue and very kind of demure. And it was very exciting to see her in a more fiery, rage-filled role where she got to show, I think, more range than we've seen before. And I really enjoyed her performance in this.

[30:24] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, she was great. She was like definitely, you kept following her around the stage. Part of that was the costuming, right? She's in an outfit that stands out. But the way she moved, the character that she's supposed to be is like the feminist that everyone's like, she's the prettiest one. Everyone's obsessed with her. She's a celebrity. And you could see that she's very magnetic and yeah, she did an awesome job.

[30:47] Meghan: Yeah, and she had my favorite theatrical moment of the show where, slight spoiler, she comes out for a march on a giant white horse, like life-size style, at the top of the stage. And it's pretty, it's like, it's funny, but also I loved it so much.

[31:07] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, it was one of those like I was laughing, but I was like applauding at the same time. I was like, this is so much.

[31:13] Meghan: And based on a real thing too.

[31:17] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Right.

[31:17] Meghan: Yeah, and the horse that they have for this is like hyper-realistic, which is just like funny because the set is very abstract. You know, it's like you have this very real-looking, like who knows what it's made of, horse that she's on. And yeah, that was a key moment for sure.

[31:37] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, I think another cast standout for me was Grace McLean, who plays Woodrow Wilson, who has these amazing vaudeville shticky numbers that are very tongue-in-cheek ironic of, you know, all the whole cast is all women. I don't know if everyone identifies as a woman, but you know, she's in drag as a man and talking about how much he loves the ladies while also just saying these outlandish things about them.

[32:06] Meghan: It's so great. I mean, that's probably my favorite part of the show is the very camp drag version of Woodrow Wilson because it's like even just the way that it's staged is different. Like the curtains come in and it feels very like you're transported to a more vaudevillian stage and the cane like dances and it's like kind of this weird mix of like southern dandy, but also like kind of effeminate at the same time. And I feel like there's a lot you can analyze there that hasn't totally processed for me, but I love a good drag performance, and yeah, Grace McLean is delivering on it.

[32:47] Harrow Sansom Thesis: It's so good, so good. I could watch like the lady's number on loop for like an hour, I think.

[32:56] Meghan: Yeah, and I love her voice too. And it just like, I love the idea of, I learned a lot about President Wilson that I did not know that was a little horrific, right? So I love anytime you have the like, holy shit, I can't believe this happened paired with like a comedy presentation of it. It's, it makes it even more horrific at times.

[33:18] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, yeah.

[33:24] Meghan: I think some of the questions or issues I have with the show starts with the title. Like, like you said, this is really the story of Alice Paul, and it follows like her group of suffragists and the kind of radical extremes that they were taking that were different from like the older generation of suffragists at the time. But I feel like the name stuff makes it be like, oh, this show is about like the entire movement and like all the suffragists who got, you know, women the vote, equal rights, things like that. And, or I guess it's just about voting, but it really did just focus on Alice Paul. And there were, you know, Ida B. Wells was a character, there was another Black character, but it's centering white folks again, like kind of the same issue that Hamilton has, where even though they like blind color casted some of the characters, it's still just focusing on the story of mostly white women.

[34:26] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And I think they did a better job than Hamilton of like incorporating other voices of color. But when you are saying like, oh, this is a show about the suffragist movement, and you're only focusing on white folks, that's like the history that's being perpetuated there.

[34:43] Meghan: Yeah, it felt like they, I guess it's mostly Shaina Taub, right, in the creative team, like really wanted to tell the story of Alice Paul, but like to do that in a way that they felt okay about, like they needed to make these nods to the other characters or the other real people, they're not just characters. But like, as we were talking about, like we, you get like three amazing moments of Ida B. Wells. Nikki M. James is incredible in that role, so good, but like that story is so complex. Like she kind of brings up a little bit in one scene how she's fighting against like lynching laws, and it's like a side note. You know, this is a long musical. There's just things that are like, oh, there's a lot more going on outside of Alice Paul's story that we don't really, we also don't know about that side of the history. And it feels like it's an acknowledgement to it when it needs to be incorporated more. But at the same time, we were saying, you know, it's not Shaina Taub's role to write the Ida B. Wells musical.

[35:44] Harrow Sansom Thesis: But yeah, no, it's hard. Like I had complicated feelings around one of Ida's big numbers when the Alice Paul character basically tells her to like wait her turn to get her rights to vote and to be, you know, part of the movement. And she has this like amazing number where she's like, you know, don't you dare tell me to wait my turn. I've been told that my whole life. And like people were really into it, but I'm also like, oh, this is a white woman writing this, and I don't like this isn't the narrative that I want to hear from, or this isn't the person I want to hear this song from, I guess. And it gets complicated of like, yeah, how do people who are of the majority write a show that includes diverse voices, but you know, doesn't do it in a problematic way? And you know, I think she, yeah, she's not the person to write the Ida B. Wells musical, obviously, and you know, she did her best to try and to incorporate it, but yeah, it's hard.

[36:46] Meghan: Yeah, we know enough about Shaina Taub and her like political leanings and activism that like, you know, her intention is not to shut out these voices, but at the same time, how can you authentically incorporate it in the way that the show is being put together? I think reading all the notes in the program, they're definitely aware of that, and it seems like they were trying to show these women in all their facets, not glorify them and say, you know, there were a lot of issues with this movement.

[37:18] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Which I think they did a good job of, you know, saying like calling them out on their like white feminism from like the very beginning, it's like integrated throughout the whole musical. And none of the characters are like extremely sympathetic for better or worse, right? You're not like forgiving Alice Paul for telling Ida B. Wells to wait her turn. You're kind of like, this is messed up, right? She's not necessarily a character that you like feel bad for in that moment.

[37:46] Meghan: The other thing too, in terms of just like inclusion is, well, we gotta talk about the queer of it, right?

[37:55] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Oh yeah.

[37:57] Meghan: Or the lack of queer.

[37:58] Harrow Sansom Thesis: The lack of queer, even though how rare is it, right, that we actually get a show based on real events, based on history that includes actual queer people who are known to be queer, but it doesn't come up.

[38:12] Meghan: Yeah.

[38:15] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And a show with just a full cast of women, like an all-girl school.

[38:22] Meghan: Yeah, totally. And so at the end, right, I mean, if people, the people sitting next to us probably like these people are losing their mind. Because anytime Jemima Kalile's character, Carrie Cat, is on stage with its other woman who is clearly her partner, right? Like they're political partners, but like it doesn't take a genius to see that this is a relationship. You know, we're waiting for that acknowledgement. I'm just waiting for her to like put her hand on her shoulder in a suggestive way. Anything, you know, and it doesn't come until the very end, spoiler, doesn't come until the very end of the show, but in a way that's like, oh, twist, you didn't know she was gay. And it's like, no, this should have been part of this complex character from the beginning to make us see all the different intersectionality issues that were happening with this movement. But I'm very curious why they chose to not center that as much. And you were also sending me stuff about Alice Paul being gay.

[39:22] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah. Well, because in the show, one of the characters is like, oh, you're a dyke, right?

[39:28] Meghan: Right. And you know, she doesn't really answer. And so I did like some research when we got home of like, oh, was she queer? And yeah, it seems unclear. Like it seems she's very private, and there's really like nothing in the show about any of the women's lives, like outside of the movement. Like we there's kind of one romantic couple in the show, but like, yeah, we don't hear anything else about like families or children or anything like that. And I think you were saying that like that did put kind of like an emotional blockade up for you. Like me too, of like, oh, you didn't have so much of an emotional investment because you didn't know much else about these women outside of their devotion to the cause.

[40:10] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Right. I don't know. It's interesting what was and I understand there's so many historical characters packed into this show. So you can't tell everything in two hours and forty-five minutes. But I don't know if this is about letting people today see themselves in this movement, like why not put queerness more front and center? It doesn't have to be the story, but it should be vocalized.

[40:36] Meghan: Yeah. I was really hoping for more of that. And I feel like if it had been a queer writer, it definitely would have been more part of the story.

[40:46] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah. I also just want to say that I really did enjoy the music. I think Shaina Taub is a really talented writer, and the complexities of this show, like I can't imagine how long it took her to put this together, and it's super easy to follow. Like everything makes sense. The way that it's literally put together, it's not confusing at all, and I feel like that can often happen with a show like this. Her music like really shines when she gets to do those things that she's always done. Like when I was thinking about when she worked with like Bill Irwin and Tina Landau and did this clowning show, and she did all this like vaudeville style music for it, and it was fantastic.

[41:28] Meghan: Oh, I forgot I saw that.

[41:29] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, old hats.

[41:30] Meghan: Um yeah, old hats, that's it.

[41:32] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, but like that style of music serves her so well. So I think that's why the President Wilson moments stand out, or there's that duet about like if we were married that feels very like vaudeville song and dance, that's like two folks going back and forth about their differences. I don't know, I'm not saying this well. But the music itself is very unique, very I’ve seen like this the style of musical is conventional, but like the music itself is very much her voice, which is cool.

[42:06] Meghan: Yeah. I do want to talk about like the way they cast the show with in terms of race, like because there were some characters who were cast like specifically black because you know Ida B. Wells was black, but then there were people of color cast as white women, and you aren't really sure through the show of like are they white, are they like the way that they present to be? And I think you know it's great that we can have people of color cast as white people because especially in a story that centers white people, but I think it does it confused me, and I was trying to figure out why that like if it wasn't said they were specifically white, I feel like it automatically it's like oh the audience will assume that they are white because they will assume that that's like the norm.

[43:01] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And I wish and I don't know how exactly to solve this, but um well, it confused me with um the character of Alva Belmont, who's like the benefactor, the like rich benefactor, because the actor playing this character is black, and so I actually assumed that the character that the person was black until I looked it up, but then I was really confused as to like why she was siding with the women who had like sidelined and put aside the black movement, you know.

[43:29] Meghan: So I was like, this is very strange. Like, why is this woman not working with Ida B. Wells or with Mary Church Terrell, you know? So I was like, I don't understand. So that was confusing to me, and then I looked it up. I think she says this wealthy white woman, and then she like winked at the audience, but that was like the only moment that something like that.

[43:51] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I missed it, see, like it.

[43:53] Meghan: See? I guess it was very fast, and I'm like, wait, did that just happen?

[43:57] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, and she says every grassroots group needs a rich white broad.

[44:01] Meghan: Okay.

[44:02] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, I didn't catch that.

[44:03] Meghan: So that I guess they did clarify it. And that was my own confusion because I was, yeah.

[44:09] Harrow Sansom Thesis: But I heard it and I was like, wait, did I mishear that?

[44:13] Meghan: And then um she kind of winked and everyone laughed.

[44:15] Harrow Sansom Thesis: So I'm like, okay, I think she is supposed to be a white lady.

[44:19] Meghan: Got it.

[44:19] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, wow, none of that clocked for me.

[44:21] Meghan: Okay.

[44:23] Harrow Sansom Thesis: So to your point, confusing, depending on what you're thinking it is.

[44:28] Meghan: Yeah.

[44:28] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Cause they do have people of color in like some of the main roles.

[44:32] Meghan: And I'm like, oh, and they have this conversation argument about like, oh, should we let the women of color in with our march or not, and like lose the southern support and money, and you know, they all have different opinions, but I'm like, I can't tell if these women yeah, are supposed to be white or women of color, and right, yeah, and then I'm like, they must be white because the white women at the time wouldn't have like worked so closely with women of color like that.

[44:58] Harrow Sansom Thesis: White until proven otherwise.

[45:01] Meghan: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And I guess like if US history hadn't failed me as much, I wouldn't have known this going in. Most of these were new people to me.

[45:12] Harrow Sansom Thesis: So yeah, so we noticed that the person understudying Shaina Taub, the Alice Paul role, identifies as non-binary, and I would be very curious to see the show with Holly Golden. I'm just I'm wondering how that would change my problem with like queer visibility and in the story.

[45:32] Meghan: Yeah, that would be great.

[45:33] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah. Anytime a queer person can play. Well, I guess we don't know if she's actually queer.

[45:39] Meghan: Queer until proven otherwise.

[45:41] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah.

[45:43] Meghan: That's how I live.

[45:45] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I mean, I really enjoyed the experience of seeing it. I'm really happy I got to see it. The performances were awesome. Um I don't think I would pay as much money as they're asking for a ticket to see this.

[45:58] Meghan: Uh but that's me personally.

[46:00] Harrow Sansom Thesis: So yeah, yeah. And I think the show will probably be around for a long time. And it is an interesting part of history that I didn't know enough about. So I'm glad yeah I'm also glad I got to see it. Prompted me to watch a very long PBS documentary about it.

[46:15] Meghan: So good job Shaina Taub. You got me a just a couple things before we wrap up our episode here. Um so for today's action of the app, just conscious of all of the things that are in the news right now about legislation against trans folks, particularly trans young people in Texas and Florida and other states, just a couple options that you can help support trans kids.

[46:43] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Um and we have two options here. The first one is an action took two minutes for me to do this morning. So this is from the ACLU and it's a pledge to support trans youth. They're trying to gather a hundred thousand signatures so that they can use this in their fights, their legislative fights against these laws that are going into place.

[47:22] Meghan: And if you're looking for a place to donate, you can send money to the Thrive Youth Center in San Antonio, Texas. Their mission is to provide a safe and supportive center for homeless LGBTQ youth so they can become productive, skilled, educated, and successful adults with the opportunity to achieve their dreams.

[47:40] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Uh and they give free case management and education support, mental health counseling, career counseling, and transition related supports that include access to hormones, access to legal support, and then name and gender marker changes as well.

[47:53] Meghan: And if you're local to San Antonio, you can get involved in person as a volunteer, and we will link to all that in the notes.

[48:01] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And finally, we have a couple queer culture recommendations for you.

[48:05] Meghan: I want to recommend a new TV show. It's called Astrid and Lily Save the World on Sci-Fi, and it's kind of a Buffy spin-off. Um, it's two high school girls who you know open mistakenly a portal and they have to kill a bunch of demons to close the portal.

[48:26] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And the two main characters are fat, and it's so exciting to see people who look more like me in a sci-fi show, and they're smart and funny and sexy, and there's definitely some queer stuff that's coming.

[48:44] Meghan: I haven't gotten there yet, but I know it's coming. Um, one of the characters is part Asian. Uh, it's very cute, it's very campy, it's right up my alley. So I'm really enjoying watching that.

[48:57] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Oh, that sounds awesome.

[48:58] Meghan: Now on Sci-Fi, you said?

[49:00] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Mm-hmm.

[49:01] Meghan: Okay. How do I stream Sci-Fi?

[49:04] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I think maybe I had to log in through my parents' spectrum account.

[49:09] Meghan: Yeah, get a boomer's login and you too can watch Save the World.

[49:15] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I hope it'll come on to like Netflix or Hulu sometime soon.

[49:18] Meghan: I'm sure it will.

[49:19] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah.

[49:19] Meghan: And my queer culture recs. I've been doing a lot of reading since I commute every day, so I get lots of good book time on the train.

[49:26] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Um, two books I just wanted to shout out that I read in the last month that are queer. One is called Black Cake. It's by Charmaine Wilkerson. It's one of those stories that's like you couldn't you wouldn't even be able to tell from any of the press that it's queer, right? And it's just like the main one of the main characters, two or three of the main characters happen to be queer.

[49:42] Meghan: And it's just like kind of part to the overall story, intergenerational story. It's about two siblings whose mother passed away and she leaves these tapes telling the real story about her life.

[49:59] Harrow Sansom Thesis: So it's all kind of being unraveled, and it's beautiful. I can't believe this is this author's debut novel.

[50:05] Meghan: It's awesome.

[50:06] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Um, and the second one is Razorblade Tears by S.A. Cosby.

[50:10] Meghan: Uh this is a crime novel, not my typical, but it is about is weirdly endearing because it is about two homophobic dads whose sons are killed in a hate crime and they team up to take down their sons' murderers.

[50:29] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And it is like super fascinating because you go in the chapters switch their perspective from the two characters.

[50:36] Meghan: So you get to go inside of the minds of these men and see kind of what they're grappling with with like their son's loss, and one is pretty homophobic, the other one is more just estranged from his son.

[50:49] Harrow Sansom Thesis: So they're going through very different journeys.

[50:51] Meghan: They encounter and like beat down a lot of homophobic people throughout the book.

[50:58] Harrow Sansom Thesis: And it's cool.

[50:59] Meghan: It's awesome.

[51:00] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Um both of these books are now in Holly's possession.

[51:04] Meghan: Yes, you just gave them both to me.

[51:06] Harrow Sansom Thesis: I'm very excited.

[51:08] Meghan: Both good recs.

[51:10] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, and I know Razorblade Tears was the top of Roxanne Gay's like favorite books from last year, too.

[51:16] Meghan: So many recommendations.

[51:18] Harrow Sansom Thesis: It's pretty gory, though. There's some gory scenes.

[51:20] Meghan: So if you're not one for plotting guts, it can get a little, but it's worth it.

[51:20] Harrow Sansom Thesis: It's worth it.

[51:27] Meghan: Yeah, I'm excited.

[51:29] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Well, I'm so glad we're back and excited to talk more queer stuff this year.

[51:34] Meghan: Yeah, we got lots of good guests coming up.

[51:37] Harrow Sansom Thesis: So excited to share.

[51:39] Meghan: All right. Until next time.

[51:43] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Thanks for listening. If you like, please follow, rate, and review us, and share us with your friends.

[51:48] Meghan: You can find us on Instagram and Twitter at Thesis on Joan. We love to hear your queer culture backs and ideas for queering the canon.

[51:55] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Send us an email at thesisonjoan at gmail.com or leave us a voicemail at 845-445-9251.

[52:03] Meghan: Come back for more interviews, fun, queer content, recommendations, and discussions on current theater.

[52:09] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Until next time, keep it queer.

[52:11] Meghan: Not that it'd be that hard for y'all to do.

[52:19] Harrow Sansom Thesis: One of our friends just saw See Seven Sins by Company XIV.

[52:24] Meghan: This is 14, right?

[52:26] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Yeah, that's 14.

[52:28] Meghan: X I V I V.

[52:32] Harrow Sansom Thesis: Cool, cool.

[52:33] Meghan: It's a blooper.

[52:33] Harrow Sansom Thesis: All right, great.