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[0:00] Josh Mitchell: In spirit of reconciliation, we are theatre acknowledges the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and their connections to land, sea and community.

[0:08] Josh Mitchell: We pay our respect to their elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples today.

[0:25] Josh Mitchell: Hello, theatre fans one and all. Welcome back to the We Are Theatre Podcast. Today I am joined by someone who inspired me to be where I am today. Gillian from the Hamilcast. Um, I've been listening to you in my ears for years, and now I get to chat to you about this and life and everything. So hello, welcome to the show.

[0:47] Gillian Pensevalle: Hi.

[0:48] Gillian Pensevalle: Hi, Josh. Thank you so much for those kind words. Thank you for having me. It's an honor to be here. It feels a little bit surreal, but I uh thank you so much. And thank you for dealing with my time zone difference.

[0:59] Josh Mitchell: You're not in New York City.

[0:59] Gillian Pensevalle: You could be farther away.

[1:03] Josh Mitchell: Yeah, look, complete other side of the world. I'm pretty sure it's a different day right now where I am coming out. I think it's tomorrow for you.

[1:09] Gillian Pensevalle: I'm in your yesterday. We're time traveling in between. You know, it's one of my all-time it's like on my list of places to go, but I have a pretty intense fear of flying. So I have to find a way to get to Australia. Maybe I'll just knock myself out for the flight or whatever. Because I really want to experience, I mean you could go to Hawaii and cruise down, but then you have to. I don't want to go to Hawaii because uh it's not cool for like white tourists to go down there. I want to respect the people of Hawaii. Um, so yeah, I'd rather go see you.

[1:39] Josh Mitchell: I also I love your land acknowledgement that you have at the top of your episode. We respect everybody. It's actually um Australia Day Invasion Day here today. So yeah, there's a lot going around today. I'm actually traveling and on the road. That's why for you guys that watch the show regularly, you're not seeing my regular background. I'm in Adelaide right now, so yeah, a whole different city to experience all this in, which is good. There's been smoking ceremonies and everything this morning, respecting the people, which is can you explain what that is? I'm not entirely clear on what day.

[2:10] Gillian Pensevalle: This isn't probably so essentially Australia Day started in 1994. Okay. Uh and is a very contentious point because it's also the day that white settlers came to Australia, and that led to a lot of genocide and hurt against the indigenous people of Australia. So it's like our Thanksgiving, like American Thanksgiving kind of to an extent.

[2:33] Josh Mitchell: Yeah.

[2:34] Gillian Pensevalle: We're essentially celebrating invasion.

[2:40] Josh Mitchell: To an extent.

[2:41] Gillian Pensevalle: Oh, you're set right. That's kind of what Thanksgiving is. I mean, it's also for Indigenous people like a national day, it's like a their day of mourning, I think they call it.

[2:48] Josh Mitchell: Yeah, American. Similar, but it's a very contentious point here right now. And um, that's why we pay respect to all our Aboriginal elderly, past, present, future, and everything like that. Because yeah, we should definitely change the date and move forward and reconcile things like that. So yeah, great. It's um yeah, interesting day here to view all that. Um, but we are here to talk about theater for all you guys at home. Sorry.

[3:15] Gillian Pensevalle: Um, no, that's okay. Um, how for those that don't know you that maybe you're in my side of the world and haven't heard of the Hamilcast, um or yourself, um, how did you get to it was such a big part of my like introduction to theater. So this is kind of surreal, but um how did you get into theater? What was your introduction to the the world that we are a part of?

[3:48] Gillian Pensevalle: Well, I grew up in New York. I'm a born and raised New Yorker. So uh theater was in, you know, my parents had vinyl and records and um then CDs. And I grew up going to Broadway shows when I was a kid. I was uh very fortunate to be able to do that and have parents, you know. My parents also grew up in New York, so they also grew up going to Broadway shows. So they sort of like we all just kind of loved it. It was like the soundtrack in the car, you know, we'd be listening to cast recordings and um so that was my I grew up with it really. Like it wasn't I'm I'm lucky enough to say that it was sort of it was my backyard. Um so it's a pretty it's very eventful, but at the same time not an eventful thing.

I didn't like stumble upon it. It was just a part of my life. Music was always a part of my life. My parents had like every cool vinyl, like Queen, my dad loved loves Queen. Um, so all of these really cool records, like movie soundtracks and and uh cast recordings and just like the albums of the time. My parents also just like they growing up in New York, they saw every single movie in the theater and real iconic movies from the 70s, like they have stories about going to see the exorcist in the theater and people like running out of the theater. Real like they saw Rocky in the theater, you know, all of this stuff. So that is sort of a big part of my upbringing and really framed who I am, just sort of being just liking and appreciating and having like a real personal connection to pop culture or music, especially that's going on around me.

[4:22] Gillian Pensevalle: Yeah, and I'm lucky enough to be from New York. So that's a pretty it's pretty big treasure trove.

[5:24] Josh Mitchell: Yeah, 100% kind of ticks all the boxes there.

[5:27] Gillian Pensevalle: Yeah, right um if you if we take Hamilton out of the mix can you give me a couple of your favorite shows of all time that you've had the pleasure of seeing?

[5:27] Gillian Pensevalle: Yeah, the first show I ever saw ever was Crazy for You which is Gershwin and um it is my uncle knew some of the musicians in it. So not only was it my first real like big like what you consider a Broadway show like tap dancing is involved and a big like dance numbers um I got to be on the stage and behind the stage and that was like a a big kind of like whoa like just being a little kid. Le Miz was a big deal for me getting to see that too in New York on Broadway. I also really love um my friend and co-hosts on my other podcast true crime obsessed Patrick always sort of says that there's like a little bit of like uh an old queen gay gay man queen in me because I love like damn Yankees I love bye bye Birdie.

Um so yeah like Gwen Verden and Anne Margaret and you know uh I don't I mean the name of the show is Gypsy I'm not saying it as a as a slur but it's you know that show is another thing I grew up with that movie um those movies and and just that was the thing you know like every Friday night when we would like rent movie I'm an only child so my parents we did like a we were like a little crew so we did a lot of things together and like Friday night was like movie night and we'd like rent a movie and I I was always like okay it was like a roster it was just like what's up next is it like bye bye birdie again is it damn Yankees again is it like the um so it was a lot of those sort of old old school um shows that I grew up on that are still like so so important to me.

[7:10] Gillian Pensevalle: And I um I remember like also like newsies too, like the the movie Newsies, um, which I I'm a newsies purist, so I prefer the the film to um the documentary film. No, it's not a documentary. Um yeah, they all looked, they all got their choreo on the newspaper, like, oh now we just run on scream. Um that was a big thing to me. And I remember I recently um last year or year and a half ago, um, came out as bisexual and you know, I'm married to a man, so that's sort of a thing that a straight guy, so that's people, I don't know, there's a lot of biurasure. But I remember, you know, when people have been asking me about it, it's like, no, I I'd be like, do I have a crush on the newsies or do I have a crush on Anne Margaret and Good and all that?

You know, like Mary Poppins was another big one where it's like Julie Andrews is so beautiful, but I also like have a crush on Dick Van Dyke. Like Dick Van Dyke was my first crush. So it was, you know, it's a lot going on there.

[8:01] Josh Mitchell: I love that.

[8:04] Josh Mitchell: Um moving into the world of being theater adjacent, like we are in having this weird connection with shows and an ability to sit down with some incredible humans. Um, your roster is a lot thicker and more uh famous than my roster that I've had. Look, and Jen where this is January 25th, January 30th, it'll be seven years of the Hamilcast.

[8:28] Gillian Pensevalle: So it's it takes time. It's it's not, you know, you get it. You've been doing this too.

[8:32] Josh Mitchell: Yeah, yeah.

[8:34] Josh Mitchell: Let's let's throw it back to seven years ago because listening to your first few episodes is like throwing it back because that's what I did when I when I started my first show with six. That's where I started. I was like, cool. Where did Gillian start? And I listened to your first couple of episodes.

[8:49] Gillian Pensevalle: And I was like, okay, cool. This is easy. Let's go.

[8:51] Josh Mitchell: And then literally recorded the first episode of my first podcast on my phone. I did a draft walking through the streets of New York after Broadway Con, going to a fundraiser that Moulin Rouge did. And then got back to the hotel room, sat down and like recorded it. And it was fabulous. But like, how did the idea come about? What was it that spurred the Hamilcast?

[9:13] Gillian Pensevalle: Actually, for anybody that do you want to just want to give a summary of what the Hamilcast is for anyone that's going to be?

[9:18] Gillian Pensevalle: Oh, sure. Yeah, the Ham. I mean, it's it also, yeah, the Hamilcast is a podcast about um Hamilton, the musical. And it has also sort of over these seven years evolved into things in sort of the Lynn Manuel Miranda universe. In the terms that, you know, fans of Hamilton who are uh, you know, historic like Joanne Freeman, she's a historian. Um, she came on. Um, and also like Freestyle of Supreme, which is his uh hip-hop hip hop improv group. Like it's all sort of like it's all kind of connected. So it's not like a Lynn podcast, but you know, there are also people who I've spoken to, like Sam Wasson, who wrote the book, the Fossey book that uh uh Fosse Verden was based on, like he he's been on. So it's just a little, but it's just conversations. We're just talking uh people, you know, like cast crew, um, all the creatives. Like Lynn has like, I think like seven episodes uh through his two visits on. Um, so we're just like talking about the thing, you know?

[10:13] Gillian Pensevalle: We're just yeah, so it started. Um, yeah, it's so funny. So it started in January of 2016, and it started because a dear friend, my best friend Ashley, she's been on the show a ton of times. Um, she's a teacher in New York City, she teaches history and government, and uh we're both only children. She's like my bones. She's like my sister. I adore her. She's she's family to me. Um, and she said, You gotta listen to this thing. That was October 2015 when it came out on NPR, when the the cast album came out on NPR. And um, I'd sort of missed it. There was a lot going on in my life, and I wasn't like, I stopped being cool. Like I used to be um, I used to know everything. I used to know like, oh, this is coming up. I used to, I used to go to like rock shows all the time. And uh there was just a lot going on in my life at the time. And I sort of stepped, I my finger went off the pulse a little and I I stopped being cool.

[11:06] Gillian Pensevalle: Um, and she's like, You gotta listen to this, you gotta listen to it. And we were listening to it in the car to see Mike, my husband perform in a show somewhere. And uh it was like pouring rain. It's just like it's so funny. It's like, where do you remember where you were when like this thing happened? You know, we were in the car, and I remember like there was a hole in the bottom of my shoe. So like my shoe got soaking wet. Like it was just little details that I remember. But I remember listening to it. And uh by like $10 founding father without a father, I was like, I something's like happening here like something's happening. That night, um, this is true. I went home. Uh, I I ordered new headphones immediately.

[11:43] Gillian Pensevalle: Um, I prefer over the can headphones, but I ordered them because I was like, I'm gonna be listening to this a lot, and I can I can already hear that there are a lot of layers to this, and the little, you know, shitty headphones I had were just like not gonna cut it. So I got like real, real ones. Um, with that with the purpose knowing that like this is it for like a while, like this is just all I want in my ear because I need I knew that there, I knew in some way, you know, looking back on it, hindsight really is an interesting thing because I was just like, I need I want to dive into this more. I know there are things that I'm missing. I know like that there are probably like musical themes there, like not even knowing what a genius Alex Lackamore truly was, like at the time, you know. I just knew it was so many things. Even even listening to it now, there's like so many things that I'm like still, what is oh my god.

[12:31] Gillian Pensevalle: And I'm like, and I remember like don't text them every time. Don't text my own. I tweeted like at one point and I was like, what is this sound? Like, what is can you just and luckily he broke it down for me and I was like, Thank God. Like, do you remember what it was? I can't remember, I can't remember the song, but it was something that like it took I reckon a hundred listens before I was like, I heard it. And then as soon as I heard it, I was like, what is that?

[12:53] Gillian Pensevalle: Oh my word. I'll tell you a secret that there are members of uh the cabinet, which is you know, Lynn and Tommy and Lack and Andy, you know, they listen to the podcast, which is wild. But I um hear from some of them sometimes that they are there, they are learning things about their own show. Like I've I've heard from Lynn where he's like, I didn't know that. And it's like, but you worked with Andy for a thousand years to make this thing. So like even the layer, and that's it's just like you know how the cabinet works, it's so amazing. Anyway, that was October of 2015, and I was listening to it, and then I was talking about it so much.

[13:37] Gillian Pensevalle: Yeah. Um, really, where they're just like, uh-huh, uh-huh, and you're like, God, you don't care, but I'm still gonna tell you anyway. Like, you just sort of can't help it. And um, you know, I have ADHD, so listening to podcasts is very difficult for me because if it there's not like a visual component to it, I find myself uh, you know, doing that ADHD thing, my brain's moving, and so I'm like rewinding a lot. So I didn't know how to make a podcast. I hadn't listened to them. I didn't know anything about that world at all. Um, but there was something that happened. Like Hamilton had gotten me back in touch with a friend of mine who I hadn't spoken to in a really long time because she was like, I see you talking about this on social media, like what?

And it was just sort of bringing people together. And I felt that instantly. And so I just said one day, I was like, I wanna, I wanna make a podcast about this thing. And I don't know how to do it. But you know, when Mike and I got married, the first year we don't have any kids or anything. We have a dog named Fiona, she's amazing. She's at my feet right now. But we just celebrated 10 years of marriage. And our first year being married, we made a web series together. And we didn't know how to do that either. And then the next year we made the second season. So I was like, well, I know how to edit. I can edit video. And I sort of just throw myself into the deepest end of the pool anyway. I was like, I can figure, I think I can figure this out.

I want to do it. I have this drive to do it. What there is no Hamilton podcast. Like, why not? Why not? So I invited my friend to come over and I said, Look, you don't have to do anything. I'll get the equipment, I'll figure it out, I'll do everything else. All you have to do is come over to my apartment and sit on my couch and talk about your favorite thing. Like, are you in? And she said, Yeah. So it started. I didn't have any, I was so excited. I was like, So let's start tomorrow. Like, let's do it now. And I was so excited about it that like I got the camcorder that we used. So the web series that Mike and I made um is called The Residuals. And it's about um actors in New York City auditioning for commercials, which is what we did for a very, very, very long time.

Um, and my Mike is a is a working actor. So that's still still part of his life. But when we were doing that, you'd sit in these audition rooms and there's there would be these people like just bullshitting and bragging. Oh, what are you up to? Like that that horrible, like, what's new with you conversation. What what can I see you in lately? Like all of this nonsense. And then the auditions themselves were wild. Like, what? Like, oh, you know, like for the men, like come in and take your shirt off. And you're like, wait, what? Or you know, just these ridiculous, like jump around like a bird, and you're like, what? Like just ridiculous, ridiculous, ridiculous things. And it was one of those, like, if we don't laugh about it, we're gonna cry.

So let's make a show about it. Um, and that was sort of the beginning of making your own stuff to sort of stay working or staying relevant, whatever. Um, so I was like, Well, so and one of those one of the pieces of equipment we had, we had like a real an excellent uh director of photography named Ed Caraballo. So he had his own equipment, but we had this like little camcorder that we use as like the audition camera. So like you we'd film it and then you'd see like the audition on the camera on this camcorder. And that was the only microphone I had. So for the first like two episodes, um we were recording, sharing one microphone on that little camcorder, and I didn't edit it. And there's like ums and mouth sounds and dead air and all this crazy nonsense.

Uh, but I just wanted it up. So I think we recorded on like a Thursday, and by Saturday, like a Saturday, like the first two episodes were out. Yeah. Um, and then you know, things happen and people have priorities change. And then, you know, I think it was by like episode 80 when James Monroe Eigelhart came over. It was it was me. It was just me. And you know, uh my co-host had different priorities, and you know, her heart wasn't really in it. And I said, Well, you know, this was my kind of my thing anyway, and I'm just gonna why I'm not gonna stop. Why would I stop? That's crazy. Um, so I just kept it going, and it started with us like the first like several episodes, which I can't even like bring myself to listen to.

Um, it's so episodes back, guys. Like you know, yeah, listen to it when you edit it, but when once it's published, you just don't go back to it. And you can't go back, leave it out there. There have been a couple of times with like listening parties with the listeners or like the Patreon peeps, the my like Patreon supporters. Like when Lynn came over, I would stay up until midnight and we'd all like have a little listening party and like a thread in our private Facebook group. But even then it was like, ouch, oh god, it hurt like why am I the way I am? Um, but it started, and and you know, people have reminded me, because again, I won't go back, but even in the first episode, I'm like, well, we'll ask Lynn when he comes over.

And I was just putting it like, oh, Alex Ackamore. When you we'll just ask Lack when he comes over. So it started with just me talking to this friend of mine, and then other people who like I had who I knew, like Ashley, my best friend, would come on and be like, you know, we were reading the Chernout chapters, like and sort of like explaining them, and then I'm like, God, this is not how my brain works. So, and I would like I it was very stressful to then like explain a chapter um with my ADHD brain that didn't, and like all these outlines. So it started off very just like people talking about the thing. Yeah, um, and then very early on, Scott Wasserman who who came back again, Scott Wasserman, uh, we call the beatmaster.

He he makes like the beats, like the hip hop horse and all of the the things on like the Ableton um technology. Like, he was just like, Hey, like what like what's this? And he was like someone who was affiliated with the show, like very early on. Anthony Rapp came on, I think episode 21. Like, there were it was sort of very quickly, shockingly, there were people interested in it because it was early 2016, and everyone was sort of getting the glazed over look from their friends and family. Um, I was getting emails from like Australia, from the Midwest, from all literally all over the world from people eight years old asking their mom to email on on their behalf to like 80-year-old librarians, like, and it sort of became clear very quickly, like this is this is huge.

Like not my my show, like Hamilton. Like it's reaching people and they want to talk about it. And like, okay, so we're doing this. Like now this is it now. Like, oh, okay, okay, great. Yeah. And that's a weird feeling when you get to that point where things just kind of it almost feels like you're five steps behind, and things have kind of you've like, cool. How do I catch up real quick so I can stay ahead of it? Yeah. And and I always say to people, like, people sort of ask, like, because the show now is so so so different. And it's also changed since the pandemic. Because the whole thing is like, if you want to come on, you come over to my house and I'll make you a cocktail or you know, tea if you're Tommy Kale, or if you don't drink water or whatever, there would there'd be snacks there, they'd be a playlist on.

It was very like hospitable, like, come over and let's party and then talk and maybe like order pizza, or maybe like sometimes people like crashed on the couch, like it became a thing. And then the Andy Blank and Bueller was the last person to come over before everything shut down. And now it's also been very different since the you know, the pandemic and we've all gone virtual. And also, like people in New York, I don't want to put anyone, I mean, I've you know, as boosted and and vaxxed as I can get, and I keep everyone's safety in mind, but I don't want to add to any of their stress of maybe they can't, you know, they have to call out. So, you know, um, but I always say, like, you have to, and it can be scary, but you have to let the thing be what it's supposed to be.

Yeah. Um, and because it's so different now. And if I fought that, like Lynn wouldn't have come over, you know, like all these different things. And I remember like uh when I told my agents, like, I don't want to act anymore because I found this podcasting thing and I fell in love with it. I remember thinking, like, am I allowed to do that? Because so much of my personality was like the conversations were like, Hey, Gillian, how are you? What's new? And it's like, oh, just auditioning, like, just like waiting for that thing. And I felt like I just made it so much of myself, yeah. That like, am I allowed to step away from it? And when I wrote that email, that nice email just saying, like, I was getting emails for auditions and like resenting it.

And I was like, this is bad. There's someone who wants this and deserves this spot more than me. And I I I don't want it anymore. My heart's not in it. And I don't know what this this road is gonna be, but like it's calling me and I gotta do it. And then I wrote this email and they were like, Great, congratulations. Like, everything's going great, like, good job. And the weight, I felt like yeah, I couldn't believe what I was carrying for so long. Yeah. How let's just dive into that like podcasting moment because finding your feet behind a microphone is rough eyes. Yeah. It is, it's not easy. Did you have a moment where you like finally felt comfortable doing this and like just talking? Um and knowing, hey, I can't leave dead air here.

Like when things kind of just started to click and you were like, Yeah, cool, this is I've I've got it now. Yeah, you know, I came, I I worked in radio for a while. I did voiceovers for a while. I I, you know, I was an actor, I did a lot of on camera hosting. I, you know, still can do that. So, like that wasn't the scary part to me, you know. But there was, it's so funny that you say that. It's just sort of like something just clicked. It's realizing that I could edit it. So, like, there is no dead air. It's like everything I was telling the guest, if they were nervous, because a lot of these people are like swings who think that no that what that like what they do isn't interesting and that no one cares about them.

And I'm like, I care about everything about you. 100%. Like, what when were you born? And then start from there, and then we'll get to, you know, that's why so many people have everyone is two, three episodes, you know, because I just I don't everything is I love that for you. Like, I one don't have the time, like we I get put on time constraints for a lot of my episodes just because of scheduling and things like that. But oh, you have me for as long as you want me, Josh. We can do this. Perfect, guys. This is the first three episodes of We Are Theatre. Um, sit tight. But um, yeah, like having the the just the conversation to be able to run that long and have like just so much depth and be like, cool, but how do you feel during this part?

And like, what do you take out of this? And da-da-da-da-da. Like, it's just really if you guys haven't listened to any of Gillian's episodes, go do it because thanks, it will change your life. But like, just the way to have that much kind of content to talk about and sit in a spot with somebody and be like, Cool, just tell me about what you do and just yeah, go. Like, is it just a really unique place that we sit in where we can just facilitate that, and it's just it's weird sometimes to be like, cool, this is what I do. Right, right, right. And like, but it's so great. And I I always like if I when I'm talking to people for the first time or like, you know, sending if I'm put in touch with someone or or or asking them to be on the show or whatever, I always make a point to say, like, yes, it's called the Hammelcast.

Yes, we'll talk about your experience in Hamilton, but like there are so many things that led you there. And there are so many things, no matter where you are on your journey. Like, if you I've had people say, like, but I haven't been in the show for a while. Like, so and I'm like, so what? Like, I don't, you know, whether you've been, cause it's such a revolving door. And like sometimes it's very cool to have people like when Jonathan Groff came on, he was sort of like, wow, I haven't thought about this in a while. And it's like it was cool for him to look back with having that space. Yeah. Um, so, and if you don't want to talk about that, then that's great. If you don't want to be on the show because you feel disconnected from it, or maybe you didn't have the best experience or whatever, like, okay, cool.

Yeah, thanks so much for reading my email. Like, don't worry about it if we're at a bar if I meet them in passing, whatever. But I always say, like, I want to, it's your story. So, like, Hamilton's a part of your story. We will talk about that. But it's what led you there and what you're doing, either if you're still in the show, what you're doing now or what you're passionate about. Like, so many of these people are activists. So many of like everyone has something to say. Yeah. Um, and so it's so it's still so shocking to me when they're like, Really? Yeah. This is a good thing. A lot of your guests have done incredible things outside of Hamilton, like on stage as well. Like, like some of the shows that they've been in are like, cool.

I want to dive into King Kong, for example, like with Kali and things like that. Like, yeah. Like, it's there's some unique shows that you can touch on as well that aren't around anymore or people might not have thought of for ages. [26:08] And it's just like I want to dive into that because that's like a really unique piece of showmanship and things like that. And it's also like there have been times where I've spoken to people, and it takes us like an hour and a half to get to Hamilton because we're talking about like ayahuasca, they're like experience with ayahuasca or something. And I'm like, and then like it suddenly, like Crystal Joy Brown, it's like suddenly that comes back to Eliza, and I'm like, Great, like what a journey.

And it's like, I'm not gonna, I don't censor people, you know. I'm I'm under the show's umbrella in the sense that you know Lynn liked what I was doing, and when he came on, he was like, I sort of like this, like let's you know, put you on the app and do that. But there's no creative control. I don't get paid by the show. This is a total passion product project. I don't get paid at all. Um, and it's something I'm doing to just talk to people. And I realized that to not just the listeners, but the people who come on, like they really appreciate that space, especially since 2020, to be able to talk about race and yeah, um, just like the reckoning on Broadway and theater, and not no one's like talking shit about Hamilton, but they're like, we can talk about anything. There's no censorship, it's my show. There's no, I mean, I do everything.

[27:16] Gillian Pensevalle: Um, and so there's no like editorial control by anyone else.

[27:21] Josh Mitchell: Yeah, so I'm grateful and honored to be, you know, on the app and still be, you know, affiliated with the show in that sense.

[27:28] Gillian Pensevalle: Yeah.

[27:28] Josh Mitchell: Um, but it's like no one's gonna be, I can't, it's not like, oh, you said no, like say it, it's your experience.

[27:37] Gillian Pensevalle: Yeah, 100%. Like, I'm not there's no point.

[27:40] Josh Mitchell: Like, we had a massive theme with um assault and things like that here in Australia.

[27:46] Gillian Pensevalle: It was massive in the media in theater.

[27:48] Josh Mitchell: And one of the first guests I had on after the show was like addressed it directly. I was like, cool, go nuts. Like, if you can talk about whatever you want here, we'll go down this road and we'll have this conversation because it needs to be. And that's okay. It was luckily like it just happened to fall within show themes, and he was like, Cool, I can take this here. And like, I was like, go nuts. I'm not gonna scoop you there. Like, um, very, very interesting.

[28:15] Gillian Pensevalle: Yeah, like it's also so fun and interesting, or I mean, not necessarily fun, but just interesting to have like you know, one person one on like a Monday record with me and say something very strongly, and like that's their experience, and then have someone a couple days later, either maybe in the same company or playing the same role or play whatever, have a totally different point of view on that. And I'm like, that's the thing, like how cool that everyone is sort of living in this space where everything is experienced in a different way, depending on what the rest of your story is, you know.

[28:48] Josh Mitchell: 100%. It's like a it's a very colloquial individual experience, and like and I think that that was a really cool thing about Hamilton and other shows is that once we got into that kind of the recent modern phase is that everyone was given that individual individuality to kind of take the role that they're in and make it themselves within obviously constraints and things like that, but they were able to view things differently because they weren't just given a book and being like this is who you are, yeah.

[29:19] Gillian Pensevalle: Right, change, yeah. Like it was very much cool, discover yourself. How do you put yourself into this role and go nuts?

[29:26] Josh Mitchell: Yeah, so yeah, very, very interesting. Um, from an editing perspective, just because podcasts and editing go hand in hand for those of you the work that goes on after we hit the stop button on the recording is intense. Um, so finding your feet because I I was trained in audio engineering, so I had that background for YouTube, which was kind of a blessing in disguise. So I knew that, but starting fresh and not knowing and having to learn how everything works. What was that experience like for you?

[30:00] Gillian Pensevalle: Oh, a rude awakening because I thought I came from video editing. So and you know, telling a story in a 10 episode web series. I thought, like, oh, okay. And you know, the muscle memory. So here's something that's gonna make you either laugh or make you crazy because sometimes I get these like horrifying reactions. I still edit the podcast in Final Cut Pro because that's where my muscle memory is, and I don't have time to learn another thing.

[30:23] Josh Mitchell: Yeah, I feel truly like web app now that I use. Like I don't even use Ableton or anything like that. I went from using Pro Tools to using a web app that's designed for podcasting because it gives me all the tools and it's easy. And I'm like, Right, cool. I'm this is it now. Like I don't need to and that's an yeah, that's another thing for people who are just like, I don't know if I can make the thing, make the thing because it works for me. Like I have like isotope too, if I ever need to really like mess with or fix audio or whatever. Um, but no, it was the rude awakening because I thought, you know, yes, I have the muscle memory of editing, which is great, but it's also like there are still issues seven years into this thing where I'm like, why doesn't that make sense?

Like, why can't I figure out the and I don't know if it's like I do have a some uh like brain blocks, and I don't know if it's the EDHD or if it's just me as a person, like sometimes it's just like a blockage, and some of that has to do with like audio stuff, which is unfortunate because I'm a podcaster for a living. Um, but there are still things I'm learning, or I'm still doing like YouTube tutorials and I'm still if I need it, you know, and because things are evolving, and so um I am always learning uh in every sense on this podcast. I'm learning from my guests, and I'm learning how to still make the thing uh, you know, the best way I can make it.

[31:43] Josh Mitchell: Um, but yeah, it's it's been interesting and also learning like to shut up in the recordings. Like, you know, and it is God, I hate to say it again, but the ADHD of it all for me is like if I don't say it now, I'm gonna forget it. So it sounds like I'm interrupting or I'm rude or I'm not listening. And that's not the case. But also I have to get out of my own way. Like if it sounds that way, then that's a problem. And people aren't enjoying it the way that I want them to.

[32:12] Gillian Pensevalle: Um, so it over the years, I hope that it's also evolved into my excitement is still there, but my excitement isn't like taking over the energy because I've read, you know, people on the internet are the way they are, and sometimes they're very mean. But sometimes um there are things that I I hear and I'm like, no, that's right. You know, and it's like part part of the enthusiasm is fun and exciting, and part of it is just like, nope, it's my total fear and anxiety that like I have this person here for this amount of time, and if I don't say it now, I'll never say it, and then they'll walk out the door and then it'll live forever in this vacuum because podcasts live forever in a vacuum forever. And I will not have said it. And if you ever listen back to that, you'll be like, I could have.

[33:05] Josh Mitchell: Totally.

[33:06] Gillian Pensevalle: So like that's in my head too, and the pressure of it, and like they're gonna leave at any moment. And so it's it's been uh a journey, like learning all of that too, uh, and to get out of my own way and just, you know, I'm not apologizing for who I am. And I I think there's like a uh a very beautiful journey in the growth of anyone's first episode to whatever their present episode is. Like I I don't regret any of it, but of course I've learned from it. And um, yeah, I don't know, but it is hard, you know. You start, you love the thing, you know, Josh. Like you just love it, and this person who's a part of it is in front of you. And so yeah, I think that's the thing. Like, you you can't do this, and this is like not so much theater specific.

[33:50] Josh Mitchell: Oh my god, specific right now is a word that I cannot use, guys.

[33:55] Gillian Pensevalle: Yeah, you just did it though.

[33:56] Josh Mitchell: Yeah, I know.

[33:57] Gillian Pensevalle: Specifically stumbled, yeah, stumbled over the first time.

[34:00] Josh Mitchell: It's in my head now.

[34:01] Gillian Pensevalle: Um, anyway. Um the the world of podcasting and like being passionate about something is what drives it.

[34:11] Josh Mitchell: Like, as soon as you kind of waver on that, I love this, it kind of becomes work almost.

[34:19] Gillian Pensevalle: But if you're like sitting down, you're like, I just love what I do. Like, I get to talk about theater people and what they do and how they got there. Like it's just it's really cool.

[34:29] Josh Mitchell: Like as a conversationalist, just to be like, cool, talk to me about your thing.

[34:33] Gillian Pensevalle: Like, what do you do? And it's just that drives the passion itself. Um, but yeah, I think 100%, like you've gotta if you love it, just do it because it'll either work or you'll learn something from it, and you'll be like, Cool, I did it.

[34:47] Josh Mitchell: Yeah.

[34:48] Gillian Pensevalle: And you'll be able to move on.

[34:50] Josh Mitchell: Can I show you something real quick?

[34:53] Gillian Pensevalle: Okay.

[34:53] Josh Mitchell: So I uh I said this to when Lynn first came over. So Lynn DM'd me, he followed me back once.

[35:00] Gillian Pensevalle: Okay, sorry, God, ADHD brain at work. So, what happened was I always knew because when Lynn was on Twitter, he used to say, like, I see you at whoever. Like there were people wanted him to see things. This is like 2017 ish, 18. People always wanted him to wanted to show him like I made this remix of Hamilton. I made my show my school like sung this in a cappella or whatever. So he would always say, I see you at whatever. And I said, even I think I even said it on the podcast. I don't know. I'm not gonna go back and listen, but I was like, one day I'm gonna wake up, there's gonna be a notification on my phone that says, I see you at the Hamelcast.

[35:36] Josh Mitchell: Yeah.

[35:36] Gillian Pensevalle: And one day it happened, and it happened. I remember it was like May, and I'd seen the show the night before. And um, I see you at the Hamelcast. And it said at Lynn underscore Menuel followed you back. And I like shot up out of bed, and Mike always says it was like the undertaker move from wrestling. I was just like, What?

[35:56] Josh Mitchell: Um, and I didn't DM him, I didn't DM him at all.

[36:01] Gillian Pensevalle: I played a cool and I was like, if he's listening, then he knows because I say it like every week that he's invited. So I'm gonna do nothing. I'm going to screenshot the fuck out of this, but I'm gonna do nothing. Just gonna sit there and just like then Mandy Gonzalez came on. And a couple weeks after that, it was August, and I got a DM from him that was like, Okay, I loved your Mandy episodes. I'm ready. Like, when do you want to do this?

[36:31] Josh Mitchell: Yeah, so in between all that, that was when he was doing his good morning, good night tweets.

[36:36] Gillian Pensevalle: Yeah, that became a book. Um, and I he tweeted one that just like got to me, got to my soul, got to my bones, and I loved it so much. And when he was sitting in front of me in my apartment, I cried at him about it. And one of my amazing listeners printed it out and had it like framed for me. And it says, Good morning. Don't wait on anyone to make your favorite thing, make your own favorite thing go.

[37:05] Josh Mitchell: Yeah.

[37:06] Gillian Pensevalle: And you guys not watching on YouTube right now. Um yeah. It's it's being shown.

[37:11] Josh Mitchell: It's being shown.

[37:13] Gillian Pensevalle: And it was August 22nd, 2017. And when I said that to him, because I think he he came over like early September. And I like that's when I started to get a little teary-eyed.

[37:25] Josh Mitchell: Yeah.

[37:26] Gillian Pensevalle: And I was like, I feel like that's kind of what I did a little bit. And like, that's why you're here. And he so graciously accepted my tears. Uh, and it was just he's such a pro. But he was just like, yeah, and like, and like to everyone listening at home, like that's like make the thing make it. And so that has always sort of been the thesis of the Hammelcast and really, you know, the residuals too, and anything I do. True Crime Obsessed, Twas the Night, which is a show that Mike, uh uh radio play that Mike, my husband wrote that like James Eigelhart is in, uh Chris Jackson is in, Nick Walker is in, all of these Hamill people, uh Anisa Folds from Freestyle Love Supreme, like just you know, incredible people.

[38:08] Josh Mitchell: But that was sort of make like make the thing and just let it become what it's gonna be, you know, like let it change and let it evolve.

[38:16] Gillian Pensevalle: And yeah, yeah. It's definitely evolved.

[38:19] Josh Mitchell: Um from that first episode to say that moment there, having leaned in front of you, like how you're probably, I would say one of the I would yeah, I would go out and say probably one of the most successful theater specific podcasters out there in the realm that you work in.

[38:42] Gillian Pensevalle: Like with what 380 odd episodes under your belt?

[38:46] Josh Mitchell: The something like that.

[38:47] Gillian Pensevalle: Yeah. Like looking back on where you've been and where you are now, getting having the conversations you've had with people and who you've had been able to reach out to and have on the show, what you've been able to facilitate. How does that looking back on it? Because it we don't really look back on it much, but you have moments where you're like, yeah, damn, I did that. Like that's that's pretty cool.

[39:10] Gillian Pensevalle: Yeah, there are some moments for sure. I think it's my pinned tweet on I think my personal account, which is Lynn uh texting me the morning they announced that Hamilton was gonna be on Disney Plus like a year earlier than it was supposed to be. Because if you remember it was supposed to be like in theaters and then the pandemic hit and then they bumped it up. Um so he texted me like like something like you should watch Good Morning America, like hey, wake up. You should watch Good Morning America in like 10 minutes. And I was like, I'm up, I'm up, like, all right, cool. And he was like, Don't tweet it, I'll see you after. And I was like, okay. So he he was like, Can I post this screenshot on Twitter?

Like after you know, the announcement. I was like, oh my God. Um and he goes, Can I post this announcement on Twitter? And I said, Yeah. And he posted it and he was like, you know, it's been a bit of a day. Like, here's our big announcement. I couldn't help but text Gillian from the Hamelcast right before. And so I quote tweeted it and I said, Hey, 2016 me, check this out.

[40:16] Josh Mitchell: Yeah.

[40:18] Gillian Pensevalle: And then after that, he tweets, like, I should probably come on again, huh?

[40:21] Josh Mitchell: That just gave me a chance to do it.

[40:23] Gillian Pensevalle: I know. I know. And it it is um, it is wild, and none of it is lost on me at all. Like I have um dear, dear friends um that I've made through this podcast.

[40:40] Gillian Pensevalle: Oh, as Lynn says, she's a crier.

[40:42] Josh Mitchell: I am.

[40:42] Gillian Pensevalle: She I know she cries easy, is what he said.

[40:44] Josh Mitchell: And I do.

[40:45] Gillian Pensevalle: Um, but when it comes to things like this, dear, dear friends, like, you know, um, there are people who are so important to the show, um, and so important to me who I consider not just dear friends, but mentors and confidants and people who I can really say, you know, I'm I'm having a I'm struggling and I I need to talk to someone about it.

[41:15] Gillian Pensevalle: And they pick up the phone and call me. And it's it's or say, like, you know, let's uh my schedule's like swamp, but like when can you talk? And they've become real, you know, true, true, true real life friends. Um, and that is never ever lost. And I I worked very hard to have all of these relationships and these friendships that you know, and it's not from like a cynical or superficial point to do it. Like it wasn't, yeah. And that's the hard thing. Like that people are like, oh, you're so lucky to like know these people. It's like we we that's not how it started. Like it started as like six my six podcasts, for example, started as uh me talking into my phone in a hotel room. Totally like hey, this is a thing that I'm passionate about.

I ran into the writers. Did I tell this story earlier before we started recording? Or no, tell it now. Yeah, so essentially how I started, guys, um, was after like 10 minutes after a conversation with Gillian at Broadway Con 2020. This is a full circle moment. Um, I ran into Toby and Lucy, who were the writers of six, along with all the producers that were there. Because you asked, I remember you asked me, like, how did you like meet everyone? I was like, I didn't know anyone from Hamlet, like I didn't know anybody. I didn't know anything or anybody. So I and I remember like, do it. Like I was quoting Lynn to you, like that's why I brought it up because like you were you asked me, because I guess to you, it seemed like I must have known.

I was like, I knew nobody, I didn't know a thing. Like, make it do it. Yeah. So I literally turn around from Gillian, walk, I want to say 50 meters and bump straight into the producers and everybody. And I was like, hey, um, I'm gonna start a podcast. And they were like, Yeah, okay, we'll come on. And I was like, okay, we're doing it. And literally got back to my hotel that night and and started it. Like it from there, like the first my first six episodes were just me waffling and just being like, Cool, this is a thing that I'm like, I'm gonna keep going. And luckily, I I got a response from a message being like, Hey, yeah, cool, I'll I'll come on. And my first couple of guest episodes were rocky, but then we got there and now we're great, you know, like look great.

Yeah, it's just like so funny to look back at things and being like, Cool, I was supposed to be in New York at that time, and thousand percent. What okay, this is a complete sidetrack, but sure COVID for you. What was that like? But as as a podcaster, and did you ease off the breaks with what you were doing? How did you approach everything? Because I was really lucky because I'd just started the six podcast, and all of a sudden I had everyone available who wanted to talk and have conversations.

[44:02] Gillian Pensevalle: Oh yeah. Cause everyone was like, cool, yeah, we we want to discuss and we want to just meet people and have a chat. Yeah, it was a little different for me at first, but it became such a blessing in disguise, not even in disguise. So again, my thing at first, and again, you have to let it like be what it's supposed to be, and sort of let go of that. Cause it was like, you have to come over. Yeah. Let me host you. Let me, and because it be sort of became like part of the bit, like, you know, you'd have a cocktail, you'd have snacks, you'd have this, and like a spread, and I'd clean my apartment. And it would be like that was sort of for years, like that was a thing. And I remember people like, I don't care who you are, if you're Lynn or you're a swing, or you're my parents, like you get the same.

I'm I'm cleaning the apartment the same exact way. Everyone gets the same treatment, right? Um, and then I remember Jason Crystal, who uh is like a sound guru for Hamilton, who now is, you know, he's just in the Tommy and Lynn universe, he's doing the sound for Sweeney Todd. He went over to Germany, like he's amazing. But he um thank God I mean the timing of it was so great because he was like, Hey, so I'm thinking, you know, it was like Alex Breitman uh talking about how we can save Beetlejuice. I remember that was a thing. And I remember I was like, come on. I I I tweeted at him. I was like, hey, like, love you, I'm a big fan. Uh Hamilton's also a show about death. So if you want to talk about how you could save Beetlejuice, like come on over.

And he was like, okay. Um, that's a that's the beauty of having your own podcast. You could just like find a way to weave into having any guests you want. Right. So then we got to talk about like School of Rock and Beetlejuice. But I'm like, they're both shows about death. I'm sure you've met Lynn. I know you've met like that works. Let's do that. So it was Brightman and then Andy Blank and Bueller was the last. And then Jason Crystal, a sound guy, a sound guru was supposed to be my next thing. And he was like, I'm feeling, and I'm like, yeah, I don't know. Maybe we should, you know, like let's it was that early on that we were like, let's I don't know what to do. And so it was my first like virtual recording in a long time.

And it was such a uh just a perfect sort of universe moment where he was like, Oh no, I I got it. Like, and he kind of walked me through yeah, what it would be because he knows this. This is his job, and so it was like, or part of his job, you know, he's just his knowledge base about how to do this is like incredible, and so I was like, Okay, so I like the pictures of us like on FaceTime and like you know, when I used to take photos, and so um it was at first it was like I don't know how I'm gonna do this, or if it's gonna work, or if people are gonna care, or if that the fact that they're not on my couch, like is that gonna change everything? Like, I didn't know there was a lot of uncertainty, but I knew I was gonna stop.

Like, I did take off you usually. I only take off like the the I release on Mondays, so the Monday of like uh Christmas week and the Monday of whatever New Year's week is, just because I know that no one's really around, and I would hate for someone's episodes to be released in sort of like a dead week, you know. So I always sort of take those weeks off in terms of recording, but um, and then you know, that was he, it was like the summer of George Floyd and all of these horrible things. So for the first time ever, I took a a week off publishing, uh, like in the middle of a series because Jason had two episodes. Yeah, so we did one, and then I sort of made, you know, posted something on Instagram saying, like, just you know, I'm gonna be like donating this week, and I urge you to do the same, and it just doesn't feel right, you know, and that whatever.

Um, but it was interesting because then we became friends, and I got to like ask him. He was like, I can whatever you need, like ask me all these things, like I'll help you. Um, he's just he's the he's the best person ever, uh, or one of the best, and one of the many people I've I've become friends with through this. But it was hard for me because I felt like, is it gonna be the same? I don't know. But then it was a blessing because then it's like, oh, now I get to talk to everyone on tour. And like now it sort of opens up this thing that I was for whatever reason like blocking myself from doing. And like when Jonathan Groff came over, he was at his parents' house in Pennsylvania, and he we had three like amazing three and a half-ish, but three episodes worth of this incredible conversation where he was just like, I'll do the cocktail, like I'll, you know, he's like refilling his own thing, and it's like, oh, okay, yeah, no, we could totally do this.

And then people were coming back, like Chris Jackson wanted to come back, and everyone sort of wanted to. That you're asking me that because no, I haven't thought about that in in that context the way you asked me, but a lot of people felt like they wanted to help or they wanted to be a part of it again or something. And I think there was a lot of reflection, and it was a lot of like, Hey, what do you need? Like, I'll, you know, we'll we'll go on Insta Live, we'll do this. And it was like, you know, once again, I'm I'm always George Bailey, just people, you know, just being the greatest. Um, and you know, Lynn came back with the him saying, you know, I think it's still under the tweet, like, I should probably come back and talk about this, right?

And I'm like, yeah, yeah, virtually, of course, but but I but I but I've adapted, and there's something about I don't know, it's being able to talk. I now I've I've spoken to people. I mean, I went to London with with TrueCom Obsessed, so then we did a we saw you know, Hamilton in London and got to have this big cast recording, like I keep calling it a cast recording, it's a party recording with cast members, and now like I've been doing a lot of virtual recordings with people from that big party recording, or just other people that were in the West End Company, people from Germany. So now I've sort of like, why was I holding myself back? Yeah, like what did that who cares if they're on my couch or not? Yeah, you know, like interesting. I gotta I gotta take up my own advice and just let it be what it is, you know.

[50:11] Josh Mitchell: Yeah, see that that's very interesting because like I was virtual the whole time, like yeah, because I I that's how I started. So like that was that's interesting because you went from the in-person outways. Um yeah, wow. Um getting to talk about the show for nearly seven years. That's crazy. Like, even like to hear someone else say it is like, what? Like, that's a long time, but I think that's go like Hamilton is that show. Like, I remember I got introduced to Hamilton from the initial White House. Oh. Like kind of be it that they did. Like that was my hope point. So I like followed the development all the way through. Um so I was in like the early stages of everything and it was absolute buzz.

But now what when like I think nearly I want to say nine, nearly 10 years on from that moment, even what's it like to relive this show through other people's eyes? Um and like how does it change your perception of the show going to see the show again and being like, oh cool, now I've heard that perspective, or do you see things a little differently once like swings are going?

[51:34] Gillian Pensevalle: Oh yeah, this is what we're like seeing here, and the perception kind of changes once you've spoken about a show and heard the on-stage experience, I guess. Oh, yeah, no, yeah, it totally does. Well, one thing that's been incredibly cool and like kind of a big honor is that people were coming on the show from either being in the cast saying, like, you know, can I come over? And I and also like I reached out to people too. I don't want it to I don't want to, you know, make it seem like I'm being a jerk or anything. But also going from people, you know, Mandy Gonzalez and Chris Jackson and the Lynn and all, you know, all of these people who were part of it for so long, or who like, you know, and then people who like today I'm editing someone who was like, my a cappella group did satisfied in high school and now I'm in the show.

Like, what? Wow. Like, or people who, you know, when people came over, I can't reach it now, but uh the Hamilton, the big the Hamilton, you know, the book. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just so so gorgeous. I people used to sign it when they came over. Um, and so that like has stopped now. And so that's in that was enough, that was a thing that was kind of like Yeah. You know, because but also it's so gorgeous and beautiful, and there are pages that you're like, oh my God, like these people, it was such a uh it's such a time capsule, but it's also like it stops at Andy, and then you know, when we went to London, it picked up again. Yeah, but it's like it's wild, like it that was three years, yeah. Right?

Ish, two and a half. Um but there were people who were over who I you know, said, like, I I went to Barnes and Noble and couldn't afford this book. And I I touched the pages and I was just like manifesting that I was gonna be in it, and then they were in it, and then they're on my couch talking about it. So because the show reached so many people, the show Hamilton reached so many people that it was when that started to change. And then when people would say, Oh, I listened to every episode learning, you know, the Stephanie Clemens episode, like dancers who were like, I listened to every word she had to say, or you know, uh Eliza Omen, who also, you know, is part of six now. Um who's also been on the way out theater podcast.

Uh she's isn't she is she not right? I love uh I love her so much. Yeah, like I can't that that was one of those out-of-body experiences for me getting right because that was like cool. Hamilton, me, it's my world now. Right.

[54:04] Gillian Pensevalle: So cool.

[54:05] Josh Mitchell: Did she tell you the story of when she was in that Carly Rae Jepsen video with Tom Hanks?

[54:08] Gillian Pensevalle: I really, really, really, really like you.

[54:10] Josh Mitchell: It was the coldest day of the year.

[54:12] Gillian Pensevalle: Oh my god, I love that story so much. Um, that song is so good, and Tom Hanks is the best, but you could see how cold they are.

[54:18] Josh Mitchell: And in the video, like I'm like, it looks like you're freezing.

[54:21] Gillian Pensevalle: And Eliza was like, it was hands down, like on record, the coldest day of the year in New York City.

[54:27] Josh Mitchell: Um, anyway, she's um incredible. Um, but you know, like having that moment where it's like the years are going by, and then there are people who are like, I was listening to episodes.

[54:38] Gillian Pensevalle: Yeah. Um, and not just swings, like I, you know, some people say, like, I listen to every Angelica you've had on just to get some kind of insight. And I'm like, oh my God. And that hits hard too, because you forget, like, you know, it feels like it's just us here, and it is, but this will be on YouTube eventually. And I don't know who's gonna hear it. Once you kind of push it out, you kind of almost that's out there. And you forget in the moment because no one's watching you. I mean, that was like a big radio thing. Like when I was doing radio stuff, it was just like it feels like it's just us here, you know. It's like we're in our own little world right now, just having our own little chat, and no one's gonna hear it except we're gonna publish it somewhere and you may listen. And like you and I know because this is our job, and like, but when there's someone who's sitting in front of you, just sort of telling their story, and then they get like responses to that.

[55:31] Josh Mitchell: Yeah, you know, like people are now, you know, Ian when Ian Weinberger came over. Um, and you know, there was a keyboard there, and he's you know, uh an incredible musician. Now, like when he walks out of the stage door at the Rogers, people scream for him. No one ever used to stage door for the musicians. I'm not taking credit for that at all. I'm just saying that like it opens like the consumption of media and the way we are able to present different aspects is that yeah, opening everyone's eyes to what the industry actually is. Like it's not just the people on stage, it's like, cool. There is a hundred other people working on the show that you don't see. Let's highlight them and give them a spot to shine. Trying your stage drawing the conductor, you're stage drawing the stage manager, the lighting people, the sound people. Like how fucking cool is that? Because that's the point, right?

[56:20] Gillian Pensevalle: Like, yeah. I say this all the time. Like, there were people very early on when the original cast was leaving Hamilton. I was getting like panicky emails. I read that was like meltdown 101. Like that. You remember that? That was so intense. Like I was pretty big in Hamilton Twitter at that point. Like I was running, like I this is a cool Hamilton story, guys. This is my little I had a book published and sat in the um like the backstage area for at least three or four years um in Chicago and New York of letters from people around the world. We published it saying what the show meant to them. And my copy signed, like I took it to stage door, and I think I gave it to Magic, who oh yeah, backstage. Antoine, yeah. Um but my copy's signed by Magic and like a whole heap of people at stage door that night. And they're like, oh my god. I don't know if it's still there, but if it is, that would be cool.

[57:19] Josh Mitchell: Um, but yeah, like that meltdown of what am I gonna do? OBC leaving. I think that was the the first kind of big modern musical because we saw it happen with Dear Evan Hansen as well when Ben left and things like that, but like that change from Mandy Lynn and everyone who left at that one kind of time, the screen base reaction was intense. And wrong. Like I because, and so I've been talking about this a lot, and I think it's because Hamilton was so enormous that it, you know, people learned about like hip hop from it. And they learned about different things. And there were also people who like didn't really care about Broadway before.

[58:09] Gillian Pensevalle: Exactly. And now they're into it and they didn't know that that's part of the gig. That like people aren't in it forever. And so you, of course, there's something like your first voice you hear, and no matter what the character is, like that stays with you forever. But there is such a beauty in, and I say it's like collecting baseball cards or like Pokemon, you got to catch them all. There's some gorgeousness of like who wait, wait, wait, who's Burr? Who's there, Angelica? Who's the Eliza? Who's Woman Five? Like that, like the amount of just like beauty that can be concocted on that stage, depending on who's playing who is it should not be ignored.

[58:58] Josh Mitchell: And so I so I'm how do I say this in the nicest way? I think those were people who kind of didn't know any better.

[59:05] Gillian Pensevalle: Yeah. And they felt uh wrongly a lot of like ownership and entitlement for like I'm a fan of this thing and I fell in love with this with this thing, and like they owe you, they don't owe you anything. They did their job. Um, and now it's your job to continue loving the thing because as I used to say in the beginning, the show is the show is the show, and so it's gonna be great. They're not getting me off the street. Would I love to play Burr? A thousand percent. Are they gonna hire me? No, uh, so don't worry about it.

[59:34] Josh Mitchell: Yeah, and also, like, how cool is that that you get to see a different version than what you see on Disney Plus. That's gonna live forever. Go home and watch that if that's what you want. But if you want to see someone else's version, and like just to see like one domino affects everybody, and like how that's what live theater is.

[59:52] Gillian Pensevalle: Yeah. And if you're fighting that, then like that's a that's on you.

[59:56] Josh Mitchell: Yeah, 100%. I've got a really cool story about this. Like when I 2020, Moulin Rouge was kind of going through. No, it was still OBC at that point. I went and saw it for the first time, absolutely fell in love. I saw it another two times before I went home. But every night I had a different um Sateen.

[1:00:15] Gillian Pensevalle: So I had three different Sateens over three shows in a week.

[1:00:19] Josh Mitchell: And that's a dream. That's a dream. Because of what was being put in because of not only Sateen changing, but Sateen changing moves different swings into action, which shifts people out of roles into different roles. And I was like, this is a different show every night. Like but it's like it's still the same thing. Like, no one's gonna be surprised. But it's just like you're experiencing something different. That's the point of live theater, everybody.

[1:00:52] Gillian Pensevalle: So cool. And like hearing different people's takes on like riffs or um oh who did I see as Eliza in Chicago? Um, I can't remember a name. It was about six years ago, but um, she did this gasp at the end of the show. Like she would oh yeah, that last note and go. And like that broke me. And I haven't heard any other Eliza do it that way or do it since, and like that, like I was like, wasn't expecting it because it wasn't on the recording, and all of a sudden it happened. And I was like sitting there sobbing in the back of the Chicago theater. And I was like, everyone's like, what? I was like, you don't get it.

[1:01:44] Josh Mitchell: But oh my God. See, I love that so much because there are people who might be listening to this to be like, well, she always gasps. And she gasps a lot. But the fact that you had seen it multiple times.

[1:01:56] Gillian Pensevalle: Yeah. And that gasp to you was different than any other response. Like, that is the point, everybody. And it's like gorgeous and great. And like, so at the time at first, I mean, these emails were the I mean panicked.

[1:02:14] Josh Mitchell: Yeah.

[1:02:15] Gillian Pensevalle: And I could tell again that it's like you again, and I'm trying to say it in the nicest way, like, just you're new here.

[1:02:23] Josh Mitchell: Yes.

[1:02:24] Gillian Pensevalle: Not to be rude about it, but it's like that's that's a nice thing. Like, how cool is it?

[1:02:30] Josh Mitchell: Yeah.

[1:02:30] Gillian Pensevalle: That you get like you have the cast recording forever. You can listen to that whenever you want. Like, how cool is it that you get to see see somebody do something else? That like now you have two versions of it.

[1:02:41] Josh Mitchell: You have the memory of this thing that it's probably never gonna happen again.

[1:02:44] Gillian Pensevalle: And then you have the thing that like is your like your comfort album. How great. And it was really cool for me.

[1:02:50] Josh Mitchell: Like, I was heavily invested in the show at that point of that change.

[1:02:54] Gillian Pensevalle: And I was like, oh wow, like damn, things are leaving. But like to go on to see where people have ended up and like what other shows they've been a part of. And it's just this massive spider web where at one point on Broadway, I think there was an ex-Hamilton member in nearly every theater doing show.

[1:03:13] Josh Mitchell: Like it was just like, oh yeah, cool. Like the show helped launch or helped span people out.

[1:03:20] Gillian Pensevalle: Like, yeah. And it was also a great show for or still is a great show for young people discovering theater for the first time. Like, and that was a massive thing, which is where I think we got the oh my god, what things change.

[1:03:38] Josh Mitchell: Like, and I think we're past that now.

[1:03:40] Gillian Pensevalle: Yeah.

[1:03:41] Josh Mitchell: I think we're definitely past like the heightened everyone at a hundred panic. Um, although the, you know, everyone has their opinion on the internet, as I said earlier, it can be terrible, but like fuck them. But you know, it for the people who actually want to experience things and and the way they're meant to be experienced, like what a gorgeous thing.

[1:04:02] Gillian Pensevalle: I mean, I I've I've been so lucky to see the show on like in different cities and different continents and in different like incarnations of it. And you know, I've seen a I've seen the same Burr with a different Eliza, I've seen the same Burr, like and to I gasp. There are moments where I'm like, yeah, or you know, like just to be able to experience that.

[1:04:26] Josh Mitchell: I was just talking to Trevor Dion Nicholas, who is who is from West Virginia but is Washington right now in London.

[1:04:33] Gillian Pensevalle: Um, and he he actually was a cover for James Eigelhart in Aladdin on Broadway, and then opened Aladdin in um the West End. So he had his story is unbelievable. So I was stay tuned for that. I was just editing him yesterday. But um he was just saying how like everything, it's all different.

[1:04:53] Josh Mitchell: Like there are moments.

[1:04:54] Gillian Pensevalle: So, like for an for an example, is like uh Call Me Son One More Time. That's a really big Hamilton Washington moment.

[1:05:00] Josh Mitchell: Yeah, right.

[1:05:01] Gillian Pensevalle: And then he's like, go home. And so what ended up happening, like, no spoilers or whatever for the conversation, if you choose to listen to it, but he was like, I kind of don't know what my Washington will do until I until I've lived that first half of the first act until that happens. Because he's watching, you know, the thing about Hamilton is that everyone is sort of watching what happens from the surround.

[1:05:27] Josh Mitchell: So, like Washington can be watching this particular Hamilton reacting to that particular Eliza, reacting to that particular burr, that particular Angelica, and that sort of informs the call me Son One More Time moment, and Washington responding to that.

[1:05:45] Gillian Pensevalle: Because real, you know, the best actors listen and they don't listen, like they're not just like listening to the they're listening. They're like in for like you as the person opposite them are like informing what they're doing.

[1:05:59] Josh Mitchell: So I was like, Trevor, I think that's amazing that like you wake up that day and you don't know who your George Washington is gonna be.

[1:06:05] Gillian Pensevalle: And he was like, How cool is that? I was like, that's the coolest.

[1:06:09] Josh Mitchell: So yeah, that's life theater though, like, and that's like I I saw Hairspray last night, um, just on a whim here in Adelaide, and there was a moment where there was just a character break, and it was that comedic moment between um the two, like when the curtain's down and they're sitting there and they just like played a joke on each other and broke character for two minutes.

[1:06:32] Gillian Pensevalle: And it was just like I'm sitting there as like someone that regularly attends theater, like that's so cool. Like they didn't know that was gonna happen. And they're not doing that tomorrow.

[1:06:40] Josh Mitchell: But everyone's like, ha ha ha ha ha.

[1:06:43] Gillian Pensevalle: I'm like, that's not happening for the rest of the week. That probably won't happen for the rest of the run. Like and it didn't happen before. It happened right now.

[1:06:51] Josh Mitchell: Yeah, and there was a conversation that happened behind me. This girl was like, Oh, that was so funny. Like, da-da-da. I was like, that doesn't happen every night.

[1:06:56] Gillian Pensevalle: She's like, What?

[1:07:03] Josh Mitchell: I was like, they didn't know that was happening.

[1:07:05] Gillian Pensevalle: Whatever that moment was, whatever was going on, whether it had been backstage or it came on stage and it luckily happened during a scene where they could break characters. But like it was just so spot on where everybody just had this sense of, yeah, this is really funny. Like, and it was a colloquial laugh, and it was just so heartwarming to be like, everyone's really invested in this moment right now.

[1:07:30] Josh Mitchell: And that's live theater. That's why we do what we do. Like, and you guys are listening to absolute theater nerd kind of oh yeah, comment right now. Like, this is our world. It's very rare we get to talk to one another and not other people it shows.

[1:07:46] Gillian Pensevalle: But like you gotta come on the Hamilcast and we can do this.

[1:07:49] Josh Mitchell: Cause I I actually I lied to you. I actually only have like 20 minutes, but come on the Hamilcast. Let's talk about it.

[1:07:56] Gillian Pensevalle: Yeah, we'll like oh my god. I mean, we'll schedule this like today or tomorrow. I mean, it's tomorrow for it's yesterday for you. Look, I've got the next couple of days, so I can I can we'll we can make it work.

[1:08:07] Josh Mitchell: Let's do in the next couple weeks because I want the Patreon peeps to be able to submit questions to you.

[1:08:12] Gillian Pensevalle: All right, cool.

[1:08:12] Josh Mitchell: All right, let's do it.

[1:08:14] Gillian Pensevalle: Wow, okay. Full circle, guys. Fan to a guest. Um, but yeah, so wow. I'm like, how good is theater? Like, do you I know it's not even just show specific, but just like do you have that moment where you go to see other shows where you just sit in there and you hear the start of the overture and you're like you just go into another world?

[1:08:38] Gillian Pensevalle: Yeah, like you're not you. You know, I'm that person that wants to show up a little bit early because even if I've like been at the theater a thousand times, like the Rogers, for example, in New York City, I just like feeling the energy a little bit before the show. I'm not the person showing, you know, in New York City. I don't know if they do that in Australia, but like in New York City, it's like the shows at the tickets are like at eight, but the curtains at like eight oh seven always. There's always like a little bit of a we're usually spot on. Usually our producers are spot on 7:30, 7:30. Maybe we'll go 7:0 uh like 7:35 if like house isn't set, but usually it's within a couple of minutes spot on.

[1:09:21] Josh Mitchell: Yeah, in London they were like right on time.

[1:09:23] Gillian Pensevalle: Yeah, London has like a strict rule on it too. Yeah, but they also will like sell you a bottle of wine, which I was like, why are we not doing this in New York? It's a three-hour show. There's two of us, what's going on? Um, but yeah, I'd like being there a little early. I like just I don't know, even if I've seen it a zillion times, I just like being it's just sort of seeing like what the vibe is, and I don't know, I like the smell, yeah. It's not to be creepy, but I just like that that like just sort of being in the air and being in the the energy of it.

[1:09:55] Gillian Pensevalle: And it's just so uh and the we have like the best houses in New York, and do they need to? I mean, the thing is they're super teeny tiny, yeah. So like they're not the most accessible, which I hate. Like so there's part of I'm sort of like wrestling with it where it's like, I love the history of it, I love that they're like old houses and they're but because of that, they're very small and they're not so accessible. So I'm wrestling with that a little bit because I wish that they were easier for everyone. For those of you that haven't been in New York, um, like there's something about your houses that is just they're like all haunted, like you could feel it, like they're old, old, old, old, old.

[1:10:38] Josh Mitchell: Yeah, and it's like we can't just knock them all down and remake them. Like, what are we like? I and I don't know what the answer is. But you don't have the space in that, like, even if you did do that, you couldn't, or you would have like there's no way to expand or anything with where they're built. It would be like one house would be out of commission for like two years.

[1:11:00] Gillian Pensevalle: Yeah. Every two years or three years. I mean, everything takes a thousand years in New York City. I'm not kidding. Like the second avenue subway took over a hundred years to be built. There's enough, like it everything takes forever. So it's sort of like if you're gonna start this project, then that means that like one Broadway house is gonna be out of commission for God knows how long.

[1:11:19] Josh Mitchell: Yeah, so it's like, do we want to keep theater open? But at the same time, it's like we have to make it more accessible. And I I don't have the answer. I don't know what that is. Um, but there is talk about it. I know, and theorize and speculate wildly. Um, what was your first show back after? Do you do you remember the feeling of yes, theaters back in New York?

[1:11:38] Gillian Pensevalle: My first show back was um Hamilton, the Hamilton uh first show back. Oh god, yeah. I stupidly wore a mascara, uh, because I cried my eyes out, and it was the energy was it felt like there was an earth, like a subtle earthquake, like walking into the Rogers. It felt shaky, yeah, because the energy. And then when Miguel Cervantes came out and said, I am Alexander Hamilton, everyone stood up and like I also went to the invited dress too. So that was like another insane moment. But it was different because they were all it was like it was the the rehearsal or you know, invited dress or whatever. But there were people who because they had a lot of like um essential workers and like friends of people. So they weren't uh necessarily like super fans, like there were people like the the first show back after lockdown was open to the public. So people bought tickets for that day.

[1:12:39] Josh Mitchell: Yeah, so that's what the strategy was like too, yeah.

[1:12:44] Gillian Pensevalle: Right. So the dress rehearsal or the you know, and I can't remember exactly what it was. There were people that were like friends of the the production or you know, essential workers and all that. So they were like there were a lot of people there who had seen Hamilton that were seeing Hamilton for the first time. So that was a little like but when me and Mike went and our uh our friend Jensen was there with us, like that was that was the day that like everyone bought tickets for that, and we were like waiting for this. And Tommy Cale made a made a speech with Jeffrey Seller, and it was sort of like just like are you like it was almost like are you ready for this? Like, no. And so when Miguel came out and said, What's your name, man? And he goes, Alexander Hamilton. It was the entire place like shot up like in unison. Yeah, and just screaming and crying and clapping, and you could see everyone on stage like receiving it.

[1:13:41] Gillian Pensevalle: She got me, guys. She got me to cry. Also, like trying to be like respectful or trying to be like in character still, but it was almost like you could see everyone like the whole point is like everyone sort of like freezes. It's like I am Alexander Hamilton. And that my name is Alex. And we we wouldn't let Miguel get there. We were just like just it was so um you can't explain it, like unless you were there. Cause I had the same thing with I went to Frozen, it was the first show to reopen in Australia after. And there was a buzz in the theater, and it was literally all the theater fans, everybody that was invested that wanted theater to come back was there. And as soon as you heard that na na, heyana, there was this electricity, and like it everyone were like my whole row, we grabbed each other, and it was just like and oh I know this buzz, and it was it wasn't even like a vocal whisper, it was just this it was like a wave from top to bottom all the way to the stage being like fuck yeah, go kill it.

[1:14:48] Gillian Pensevalle: Like, and yeah, it was like comes up and like Sam Payne touched on it in one of my episodes. Like they could feel it, and they were like they couldn't hold their voices because they were like crying behind everything, and it was just like yeah, like the Yorktown dance break, which you know is my favorite thing of all time, like in that moment, everyone on their feet, any any time you had a anyone could possibly be yeah, immigrants we get the job done, like everything. But I think it was either that that same night or the night before after a dear friend of mine, Natalie went to wicked, and the first line of wicked, I mean, after like she's dead, whatever, whatever. But when Glinda comes down, is it's good to see me, isn't it? Yeah, and everyone, I'm getting chills just thinking about it. And I wasn't even there. And everyone fucking went crazy.

[1:15:35] Josh Mitchell: Yeah.

[1:15:36] Gillian Pensevalle: I mean, what a perfect first line.

[1:15:38] Josh Mitchell: Yeah.

[1:15:39] Gillian Pensevalle: Like, and it's the same thing as like someone introducing themselves, where it's like, oh my God, good to see you again, Alex. Like, oh my God, oh, we've missed you, Alexander. But it's good to see me, isn't it? And like she knew. Yeah. And it was like it must have been discussed for months. Like everyone's like, she would have been sitting on that for years. She's like, yeah, and everyone was probably like, we're gonna just hold for a cool 90 seconds. That 100% would have been on the show notes on the board, be like, hey, just just so you're aware. It's good to see me, isn't it? And it's just like it uh it was a very electric that week was a very electric time. And I on Broadway. I think that highlighted around the world when the West End came back, Australia came back, you guys came back.

It highlighted, hey, this is fucking important. Like take care of us next time because look at everybody, like yeah, because what everyone missed was the arts and what everyone was asking for, you know, it's just a shared experience where everybody's sharing the exact same experience but get something out of it differently, yeah.

[1:16:42] Gillian Pensevalle: Like and also wearing a mask took nothing away from it. So absolutely put nothing out there. Don't wear a mascara, I guess. If you don't want to like a dummy, Josh, why did I do that?

[1:16:54] Josh Mitchell: Oh, look, you live your life, like I should have known better. I think it was just like muscle matter. I was like, Oh, I'm like going out, and also because it was like I haven't gone out to dinner in a long time. I kind of like didn't know. I remember feeling very anxious about like okay, so we're like, oh, like it felt it was so much. I'm going to the theater, and it wasn't like uh, oh, I've been to this theater a hundred times before. I'm going to the theater. Like I'm going to dinner with friends.

[1:17:19] Gillian Pensevalle: Yeah.

[1:17:19] Josh Mitchell: And then like seeing friends after it was it was a very it felt very foreign. And it was it was a why it was it was insane. And it felt very it was different because like walking around New York City to get like grocery. I mean, everyone bailed. Yeah. Most people bailed. Uh and it felt I can't remember who I spoke to about this, but it felt very much like 911 when 911 happened, where it was like the streets were bare. Yeah. No one it fit it was wild to walk on like really like second avenue or very you know, if you're in in on the west side, like eighth Avenue, and just have like just tumbleweeds and crickets. Um and back then when we were grocery shopping with like gloves on, you know, like surgical, like just but thinking about that time and just like you know, lysoling our cereal boxes and lysoling, you know, the things that it was just that that time where we kind of didn't know what was going on, and everything was very heightened, and then to finally sort of be in this annoyingly small theater, like it was it was sort of like we still were we wanted it so badly, but at the same the same time we still weren't exactly ready for what it would mean.

[1:18:38] Gillian Pensevalle: Like even in our dreams and in our fantasies of like, oh my god, we're gonna hear like what's your name, man? Alexander like we it was nothing that we could really you couldn't you know you there's no way you could prepare for that first night back. Like doesn't matter where you were, what you saw, like if you were in a theater seeing that first show back for that show, that your experience you one you could probably never get someone to experience that again no and everybody experienced something different like but it was the same energy throughout and it was like cool everyone's connected and we're just throwing everything at it it was yeah yeah the the roar of it from my side and then like the people like from my end of the spectrum right like just like being in the audience and then like what that must have been like to for the people on stage to miss being on stage and doing what they do and and like projecting whatever their story is no matter what show you're in yeah getting that wave of like we need to be a hundred percent would have so much it would have been so hard to stay in character like yeah to feel that and be like oh yeah cool this is my job I got back like and then to like use that energy like the audience is always giving the actors energy on the stage right and then like that but that's almost energy that like you have to like really kind of deal with before you even get on stage like how am I yield this because it's so like how do I you know as like an Aaron Burr who like is constantly trying to keep his energy like in yeah how do you receive that during Aaron Burser and then just be like nope I can't no no not till the end not to at least wait for it.

[1:20:23] Gillian Pensevalle: Like I got it oh like yeah amazing um before we go down another tangent yeah. We'll wrap it up there so you can get to your next thing. Um, but guys, thank you for joining us for another episode of the We Are Theatre Podcast. And by the sounds of things, you'll see me on another podcast soon somewhere else.

[1:20:40] Josh Mitchell: Absolutely. We'll um yeah. So we'll let you know when that's happening. But you know how everything works. Make sure you're going following the Hamillcast. If you haven't listened to it, do it because there's 380 something episodes to catch up on. So you guys are.

[1:20:52] Gillian Pensevalle: It's like 350, I think. But I'll I'll send you some good ones to sh to set, you know. And everyone in the cabinet, the Alex Lackamore episodes will blow your mind. Lynn, Tommy, we'll put a link to a whole heap of things down below for you guys. I'll send you, I'll send you the good ones.

[1:21:06] Josh Mitchell: Yeah. We've got it so sorry, I don't mean the good ones. I just mean like for new people. We'll we'll hand pick them for you guys to listen to. Uh make sure you're following us, giving us a big thumbs up, like wherever you are, watching, listening. We'll be back in two weeks with a brand new episode of the We Are Theatre Podcast. Bye.