This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Patrick Oliver Jones: This past week, as *Anne of Green Gables* went into tech rehearsal and we finally had our first public performance, I was reminded that there is a very particular important step that happens as you leave the rehearsal studio and finally start working on stage. And that is the introduction of costumes. For me as an actor, the adding of costumes is a big step forward in the development of my character. It informs how I move, how I sit or stand, and even gives me a sense of class or position, even confidence that my character has. And so today I'm talking with someone who does costumes for a living and shares with us the true artistry that goes into this element of theater making. Hi, my name is Adam Stocker.

I am from the Detroit area, and I live in New York City now, and I make costumes. Since moving to New York from Michigan, Adam has made costumes for Broadway, Off-Broadway, cruise ships, and even Disney. Lately, he's also been advocating for workers' rights and focusing on inequalities in theater that affect the costume industry. And this was actually how we connected on Instagram, as he was creating posts and messages to find solutions for a more equitable future.

[1:21] Adam Stocker: And it was just sort of like you were the people who are most able to get the money, and you're still asking us to do either the same amount of work or more amount of work for less money. To feel like slapped in the face is an understatement.

[1:40] Patrick Oliver Jones: Welcome and thank you for joining me for another episode of *Why I'll Never Make It*, an award-winning Top 25 Theater podcast. I'm your host, Patrick Oliver Jones, an actor and singer, talking with fellow creatives as they bring us three stories from their own life of personal struggles and professional hardships with lessons we can all learn from. The website is whyillnevermakeit.com, where you can subscribe to bonus episodes and offer support to the production of this podcast. Again, that's whyillnevermakeit.com. Welcome, Adam. It is so good to have you here.

[2:20] Adam Stocker: Thank you for having me.

[2:21] Patrick Oliver Jones: I really enjoy these like face-to-face meetings. Zoom has been great for the last couple of years, but I'm glad that these in-person interviews are starting to happen more and more. The energy is so different.

[2:31] Adam Stocker: Right.

[2:32] Patrick Oliver Jones: I'm like holding back laughter.

[2:33] Adam Stocker: Right.

[2:33] Patrick Oliver Jones: It's not like, woo, yay. Well, I mean, it's really interesting how many artists that I've gotten to meet around the Washington Heights area.

[2:41] Adam Stocker: Yes, we are practically neighbors.

[2:44] Patrick Oliver Jones: So I was so excited when you were like, meet at my apartment in Washington Heights, I was like, absolutely. I will take that.

[2:51] Adam Stocker: Yeah, because when I first moved here, a story was kind of the big artist hub wasn't that was in Queens. And it's I mean, I think there's still some representation there, but it's definitely shifted here, you know, in Washington Heights because it's a little cheaper, a little bit. Apartments are a little bit bigger, you know, more for the money. So it's a little nicer and not quite as congested as Midtown.

[3:13] Patrick Oliver Jones: Definitely. But still, we hope, at least I do, to one day be down there with the other people.

[3:19] Adam Stocker: Right, with the people who made it.

[3:21] Patrick Oliver Jones: Right, right. That's the are making it. Well, I wanted to get to your first story because it kind of deals with that. You know, we were out of work for so long. And as Broadway has been reopening over the last year, you wanted to talk about an understanding of things that haven't changed, you know, through the lockdown and now as things have reopened. What were the things that you specifically haven't seen changing?

[3:46] Adam Stocker: I think when we went through lockdown, there was such a reckoning for civil rights and workers' rights. And as we were all sat on Instagram or Facebook or whatever, Twitter, also sitting there like complaining about the jobs that we used to have. I thought for sure the theater industry, you know, we like to take big steps forward, or we like to think we take big steps forward. We'd like to be this progressive entity, right?

[4:15] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, we like to act like a progressive entity.

[4:18] Adam Stocker: Um, but when okay, I came back working in 2021, like pretty early in 2021, and there still wasn't much like happening, but the reopening of Broadway was on the horizon in June, we'll say. So we were finishing up projects, there was like eight of us there, maybe, so nothing was that big of a deal. But then as the reopening of Broadway came closer and closer, and we were like hiring more people back and having more people through the studio, but still in a global pandemic, and understanding that the infrastructure of people who worked at a theater changed, right? Like they replaced their filters and auditoriums, they made sure that there was a COVID safety officer there. You were told to wear K-95s probably all the time if you weren't on stage, but none of that translated to the private businesses that are not inside of a theater.

[5:18] Adam Stocker: So I work in a costume shop that is a private business. It's also like a non-union shop, and so there is no like bigger entity outside of the company owner to make the rules that say like we need to be wearing this kind of PPE, or like everyone needs to make sure that they're testing this amount of times. And there is also no infrastructure for them to receive the funds for that. And as I've, as you know, because you watched the video that I posted on my Instagram, the costume industry is like the least paid industry in theater. In comparison to everybody else, like in the theater industry, costume designers will say, because you can kind of track that pay rate because they're a union almost all of the time, they're paid like the least amount.

And then the non-union costume makers are paid like even less than that. And so we don't have the funds to create the infrastructure that keeps us all safe. So we're just kind of screwed while everybody else gets like a super safe atmosphere in a global pandemic. So that was just like one thing that I thought, okay, I can wear a cloth face mask and be six feet away from my coworkers, and like we'll probably be okay. Until, of course, more shows were reopening at the same time and before lockdown, we were working on more than one show at one time. So we needed more people in our shop. And so our costume shop was like full of people, but still with none of the like serious regulations or rules or accountability. Because obviously you had to follow whatever city regulations there were, but then the company itself can kind of dictate things above that or around that.

[7:02] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, but if they don't, then who do you report it to?

[7:04] Adam Stocker: Your boss who's not who's already saying who cares?

[7:08] Patrick Oliver Jones: Which is not at all what he said.

[7:09] Adam Stocker: Uh, but some bosses did.

[7:11] Patrick Oliver Jones: But some bosses did. And of course, we had designers coming in. And you know, so oftentimes as soon as they left the theater building, they took off their mask and they didn't bother to put it back on to be around us or didn't bother to put it back on to be in a fitting, even though I'm a hundred percent certain those fitting contracts that you had to wear a mask in the fitting.

[7:33] Adam Stocker: Right.

[7:34] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yes, I mean I've done I yes, I've done one fitting since then. And yeah, I was wearing a mask, they were wearing masks.

[7:40] Adam Stocker: Yeah.

[7:41] Patrick Oliver Jones: But even some of the actors would come in and be like, Do you care if I take off my mask? And it's like, well, kind of, right? Like we had a coworker die from COVID, which was horrible, but it felt a little like, even though how could they possibly know that unless you told them? But it felt a little like, oh, you don't care about us. You just want to take off your mask because you're sick of wearing it. I have to go to work and wear my mask for eight hours and that's it, because that's what I'm asked to do. And that's really one of the biggest reasons why I was happy to talk to you is that you give another side of it because us actors we're in a room with directors and choreographers, so we certainly know that atmosphere and a lot of those rules, especially when it comes to equity, you can take it off, you can put on your mask.

That there's, you know, it's kind of a give and take throughout the day. Whereas a lot of people, especially in these third party venues that work adjacent to what we're doing, yeah, you're having to wear it all day, every day.

[8:41] Adam Stocker: Yes.

[8:42] Patrick Oliver Jones: And so it's a full eight, 10, 12 hour day, whatever it is.

[8:45] Adam Stocker: Right.

[8:45] Patrick Oliver Jones: And you're you have it on the whole time. And I think that it's important for us who get sick of it. Sure, we're all sick of masks, all of us.

[8:52] Adam Stocker: Right.

[8:52] Patrick Oliver Jones: But there's some for the sake of continuing our work, we have to be cognizant of those who can't take it off.

[9:00] Adam Stocker: Right.

[9:00] Patrick Oliver Jones: And it becomes kind of one of those things of like, you want to take off your mask because you feel like you can. Um, I don't feel like I can take off my mask. But maybe that person feels like they can take off their mask because they make more money than I do, or you know, they're a little more special than I am.

[9:21] Adam Stocker: Which is a lot of the time kind of what it boils down to when the designers come in and they're just like, whoop, no mask around the workforce. It's like, oh, okay, this is a it's it's kind of a class difference.

[9:34] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, I mean, I think so much of COVID was performative, and not to get too political with it, but yes, that there were people who would do things just to show. I mean, I saw this one politician who was like, no mask. He's like, ready to give a speech, put on his mask to walk to the podium, took it off.

[9:52] Adam Stocker: I know exactly.

[9:52] Patrick Oliver Jones: But I was just like, there you go. See, it's it's more about the performance and the aesthetic of it rather than actual the science of it, what needs to happen, what's right, what how do we adjust this? Because I think it's important, as you say, that these third-party shops that aren't at the regional theater or in the Broadway house, then it's it's important that we have a reciprocal relationship.

[10:17] Adam Stocker: Exactly.

[10:17] Patrick Oliver Jones: Another point, the benefits, right? Having benefits as you work, which a lot of costume shops in New York City don't necessarily have. So you're you get hired on as an hourly worker, and most of the time you make like pretty good overtime, but a lot of the shops don't really necessarily have like a benefit system. Or if they do, I know like mine like pays into a monthly amount of health care, but they don't, you know, it's like I would still have to pay whatever the difference is for whatever healthcare plan I choose which isn't necessarily easy when you're only making 18 to 20 dollars an hour which is what probably the average person in a New York City costume shop makes so then you're like well do I just take like garbage health care and hope that I have a serious emergency that will be covered by my plan or you know get mildly sick and just take the not paid sick day.

[11:07] Patrick Oliver Jones: It's really interesting to hear about how there are parts of theater that yes we're we're not a nine to five job or we are different from I guess the corporate business world but there are so many parts of the industry I think like yours that still operate at least within that because as you said these costume shops are their own small business and they're operating in that way they're trying to make money they're in the arts but they have to get clients they have to go market themselves. They have to have the workers like yourself that do the work. So it is this weird middle ground of like on paper you're like it's a costume shop. So they're just like artsy people here's like your funds for being an artist which as we all know is minimal but then when you're on my side you're like I work a 40 hour work week nine to five thirty or whatever nine to six and we're not treated by like anyone by like as like a real business it feels like like it's constantly feeling like I'm in this middle state of like what is my job even other than like making clothes for imaginary people I guess right, because you don't normally get to see the people.

[12:17] Adam Stocker: Yeah, no, you don't even meet those people, yeah.

[12:19] Patrick Oliver Jones: Have you worked in an actual theater before?

[12:21] Adam Stocker: So you are more around the actors and such.

[12:23] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah.

[12:23] Adam Stocker: So I have worked, um, I went to school in Kalamazoo and I worked in a few theaters in Kalamazoo that I work directly with the actors, and then of course at the Glimmerglass Opera Festival, because that is works almost like a regional theater, and I was in direct contact with actors there.

[12:38] Patrick Oliver Jones: And how is that working in a theater around the actual actors and designers and such?

[12:50] Adam Stocker: Oh, it's so different. Um, when you're in the theater, like people see you, and so they know that you exist and there's a community there. At the very least, it's like these people are real people that exist, and oh, I met the person who cut out or my costume or sewed my costume. And that's what it's like at a regional theater. You have the resource of community, which is indisposable. Um, as opposed to here in a New York City costume shop, you don't have that kind of community. You have your co-workers, and then oftentimes we just ship it out to wherever it's going pre-Broadway, and I like almost probably like never see it again. Especially when we do things for like cruise ships or Disneyland sometimes, it's like I will never see this costume again unless it's in a photo and I come across it on Instagram, like on purpose.

[13:40] Adam Stocker: Or you actually go to Disneyland.

[13:41] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, or I have to go to Disneyland to see this. That person to person context, so like the people coming into fittings don't meet me, but they do meet maybe my pattern maker or or the company owner, something like that. So you know that those people exist because they're doing the fitting around you, or you meet the people who take your measurements, but you don't see the grand scheme of the like 50 other people downstairs who are sewing and cutting and speaking other languages.

[14:08] Adam Stocker: Right, right.

[14:09] Patrick Oliver Jones: That's true. Yeah, I have to deal with that. Now you had mentioned that designers have their union that they can be a right.

[14:14] Adam Stocker: They're usually uh USA 829 in New York City.

[14:19] Adam Stocker: And has there been talk or been any kind of push for those under that designer to also be incorporated into such a costuming union?

[14:29] Patrick Oliver Jones: You mean people like me?

[14:31] Adam Stocker: Yeah.

[14:32] Patrick Oliver Jones: So wow, funny you should mention. In 2021, local 764, the wardrobe union, opened up enrollment to anyone that's worked in a New York City costume shop for like three years, something like that.

[14:48] Adam Stocker: So a lot of us did join the local 764 union, but after that there was no, there was not like a bigger push to unionize the costume shops.

[14:59] Patrick Oliver Jones: So they made a big push for the individuals like you to join the union, but not the actual costume houses to become a costume union house.

[15:07] Adam Stocker: Correct.

[15:09] Patrick Oliver Jones: Then what good does it do?

[15:10] Adam Stocker: And what good does it do? Because all it does is it takes the people who are physically able to do the work that like a wardrobe job might entail, or a separate if you with my 764 I can go work on TV and film also, but that also means like lugging my sewing machine cross borough to go to whatever studio in the Bronx. So it's like that person who signed up to work in the union in 764 and is maybe getting a union job that is outside of the costume shop has to be physically able to and it has to be able to probably speak English really well.

[15:46] Patrick Oliver Jones: And that is not the case of most of the workers in a New York City costume shop.

[15:51] Adam Stocker: And so it's a very, it was a little bit of like a hmm. Well, I mean, it's like the first step, but without taking the next step that actually makes it mean anything.

[16:02] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yes.

[16:02] Adam Stocker: So I guess you can pay into like a pension somewhere down the road. That's about all you get, maybe.

[16:07] Patrick Oliver Jones: Correct.

[16:08] Adam Stocker: And I guess you can qualify for health benefits after so many weeks.

[16:20] Patrick Oliver Jones: But after that, it's like, you know, the people who could leave left to go work union jobs that pay two times more, three times more. Um there are costume shops that are union shops.

[16:34] Adam Stocker: Sure.

[16:35] Patrick Oliver Jones: The kind of in-house shops that are like Radio City, the Met Opera, New York City Ballet, those are union shops.

[16:42] Adam Stocker: But most of the c no most of the costumes you see on Broadway are made by non-union workers almost entirely. They are maintained by union labor who are local 764 work your wardrobe people, but they're made by non-union workers.

[16:58] Patrick Oliver Jones: Just hourly workers.

[17:00] Adam Stocker: Hourly non-union workers. Stitching and putting it all together.

[17:03] Patrick Oliver Jones: That's right. And so this is what you're talking about that as Broadway opens up and it's this big Broadway and theater where community, there are people, there are shops that are being left out.

[17:14] Adam Stocker: All of the shops are being left out of that.

[17:16] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah.

[17:17] Adam Stocker: Yep. Of course, you know, people came back and said, Oh my gosh, we don't have the money because there was a global pandemic. Can we pay you less? And it was like the pe and those are the people, of course, who were able to apply for and get the business loans or small business loans or what have you. Um, and it was just sort of like, but you are the people who are most able to get the money, and you're still asking us to do either the same amount of work or a more amount of work for less money.

[17:53] Patrick Oliver Jones: Which is a huge I mean to feel like slapped in the face is an understatement.

[18:01] Adam Stocker: And to me, it all comes back down to the ticket price. We know what Broadway prices are like, and certain shows demand more than others, sure, but there's still those house seats, you know, orchestra of those first few rows where it's 150, 200, 300, whatever the show is.

[18:20] Patrick Oliver Jones: And so there are those Broadway houses that are making the money, but it's not filtering down to the costume shops and houses.

[18:26] Adam Stocker: Correct. Fortunately, on Broadway, I would say actors are mostly well taken care of as far as pay wise, yes. But when it comes to some of the regional stuff, then then that's when equity concedes a lot more and so.

[18:39] Patrick Oliver Jones: Oh, sure.

[18:40] Adam Stocker: No, they can help clean up tour.

[18:43] Patrick Oliver Jones: Touring life is another one.

[18:45] Adam Stocker: Yeah, touring life is another one. Because I've gone in for a couple of tours and and things that would maybe possibly go to Broadway, and it's interesting to look at the rates and what they're doing now. I'm like, so the show that's currently on Broadway, they're making 2,002,500. I'm gonna need to do the same choreography, perform the same role for 978. Oh, okay.

[19:10] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, in someone else's costume.

[19:12] Adam Stocker: Right. Probably someone else's costume. TDF or whatever. Right. Performing for audiences who are paying $100, $125 a ticket and a tour.

[19:22] Patrick Oliver Jones: Right.

[19:23] Adam Stocker: Yeah. Here's the thing: I want producers, I want theaters and theater makers to make money. They have to. If they don't make money, none of us do. So I want that. But yes, there does need to be like, I'm fine if all the money goes here as long as it starts to work its way down and everyone feels like they're being paid what they're worth. Obviously, not everyone's worth $2,000 a week, $10,000 a week, but certainly not everyone is worth $10 an hour. You know, there is a middle ground for each person's job and what they're doing.

[19:52] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yes.

[19:53] Adam Stocker: And it's just a matter of feeling like you're contributing towards something. Because I've as an actor, I've been on that tour where I was paid a quarter of what the person on Broadway did for my role. So I I feel like I'm not being paid adequately for the work that I'm doing based upon what someone else did.

[20:11] Patrick Oliver Jones: Right.

[20:11] Adam Stocker: In the same way, and it's not that you're feeling, it's that you, it's that you're not being paid fairly.

[20:15] Patrick Oliver Jones: Right.

[20:16] Adam Stocker: It's not I feel, it's I am not being paid fairly.

[20:19] Patrick Oliver Jones: Right.

[20:20] Adam Stocker: Right. Right. Because that because there is work that's being done commiserate with with what that work is.

[20:27] Patrick Oliver Jones: Precisely.

[20:28] Adam Stocker: Yeah. And if it's going to be on a stage where people are paying 300 bucks a ticket to see it, then maybe maybe they should know where their money is going.

[20:36] Patrick Oliver Jones: Right.

[20:37] Adam Stocker: But instead, right, I of course I oftentimes follow producers on Instagram just to see what they're up to. Um, and so when their Broadway show opens and they fly to Greece for a vacation, it's a little like, I see why I'm not paid all that well because you've got to go on your Grecian vacation, which is a well deserved, I think.

[20:59] Patrick Oliver Jones: Maybe.

[21:01] Adam Stocker: I'll never fault anyone for taking a vacation. And maybe they got their money elsewhere, not just from that one show.

[21:06] Patrick Oliver Jones: That's true.

[21:06] Adam Stocker: That is true. They could be working on six shows.

[21:09] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yes.

[21:09] Adam Stocker: You know, we don't know. But yes, but there is a certainly a perception, but also a reality of where money's going and where it's not going. And all of those things are like always running through my head at work. And I'm like, I cannot believe we're doing what we're doing for the amount of money that we're doing it for.

[21:26] Patrick Oliver Jones: Right.

[21:26] Adam Stocker: And it's because people don't look at us and say, like, okay, I'll say I feel. I feel like it's because producers look at us and say, like, well, you're not really worth that amount of money. Or they're totally clueless on the amount of money that it actually costs to make it.

[21:42] Patrick Oliver Jones: And the amount of work that goes into it.

[21:43] Adam Stocker: And the amount of work that goes into it.

[21:45] Patrick Oliver Jones: And trigonometry.

[21:46] Adam Stocker: Correct. Tell me what two pi r squared equals. You can't.

[21:55] Patrick Oliver Jones: I did find your resume. And so there were a few things. What exactly is a wardrobe technician?

[22:01] Adam Stocker: I think for that job that my title, like that truly was the title they gave me, but it was just like maintaining things after shows. So like if this button fell off, I sewed on the button, or I just did laundry. It was like wardrobe crew, except I wasn't there during the show. I was there on the off-show hours doing all the laundry.

[22:19] Patrick Oliver Jones: You're like behind the scenes of behind the scenes.

[22:21] Adam Stocker: Yeah. Yeah.

[22:22] Patrick Oliver Jones: It was like I had a key, and the only other person in the whole theater, it was a complex, like a theater complex. There were like three different theaters. And it was me and like one other person who I may cross paths with who I didn't know their name.

[22:36] Adam Stocker: Brilliant.

[22:37] Patrick Oliver Jones: Brilliant. And assistant draper. What is a draper?

[22:41] Adam Stocker: A draper is a pattern maker who makes the patterns three-dimensionally instead of two-dimensionally.

[22:47] Patrick Oliver Jones: So your draper or pattern maker can make patterns two different ways. Flat patterning or draping. Draping is just like on the dress form. You make it to fit the size of the person. Um, and then you just put fabric on it, and you literally drape the fabric over the dress form, and you draw your style lines and you draw all your lines and you pin it out, and by the time you're done, you have your pattern in a three-dimensional form, and then you copy that onto paper to give to me to cut.

[23:14] Adam Stocker: Sounds like that's where the trigonometry comes in.

[23:17] Patrick Oliver Jones: Uh the trigonometry comes into flat patterning because it's because you take the measurements off of their measurement sheet and you plug it into an equation, and then you get uh point A, point B, point C, and you connect all your points, and then you get your outfit.

[23:31] Adam Stocker: Yeah, going from flat to 3D and vice versa.

[23:33] Patrick Oliver Jones: Right.

[23:33] Adam Stocker: Yeah. Yeah. The trigonometry comes in when you're trying to draw your curves from point A to point C, which is supposed to be, let's say it's your neckline, and so you have to just somehow know what kind of curve that is.

[23:46] Patrick Oliver Jones: It's like what world does that make sense?

[23:49] Adam Stocker: It doesn't matter.

[23:50] Patrick Oliver Jones: Right, right. It's weird to think of all the angles and different things and circumferences that our bodies have.

[23:55] Adam Stocker: Yeah, like around the armpit. That's the crazy, like the arm's eye is what it's called. Around your armpit, and you're always like, why is this a thing? Well, it's how is this a measurement? It's the difference between us, you know, when we need to raise our hands that it can go to our chest, or it can go above our head.

[24:09] Patrick Oliver Jones: Right.

[24:10] Adam Stocker: It's like I can't move it, or you know, right. Or I can I have full range.

[24:14] Patrick Oliver Jones: Full range of motion, right?

[24:16] Adam Stocker: And then the last one, what is a first hand?

[24:19] Adam Stocker: That's so first hand is my job. That is like a cutter, kind of like a cutter prepper. So I I receive the patterns from the pattern maker, and then I cut it out of fabric and I prep it for the stitcher, and I explain to the stitcher how it goes together. We'll pretend that there's a costume hierarchy for a moment in big air quotes. Pattern maker at the top, first hand cutter is me, and then stitcher is at the bottom.

[24:47] Patrick Oliver Jones: In terms of knowledge and experience, Stitcher and Pattern Maker are like equal at the top.

[24:53] Adam Stocker: And then the cutter is this like middle person who is really good at problem solving and like putting puzzles together, but might not have the technique of sewing or the understanding of physics to quite do either of those jobs.

[25:09] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, yeah, I'm just thinking about because I've been in shows, so I understand costume fittings, obviously. Understand, you know, putting on costumes and how things fit, and at least the practical aspect of what costuming is. And then I've watched a project runway or those kind of things to understand, you know, how they're kind of going from a uh this design then to the pattern and making it. So there are bits and pieces of it that I understand, but yeah, and even in the fitting, when people come in for fittings, I'm almost never part of the fitting. Um, so like they don't even know I exist, or like that my job exists. You know, you never think like, oh, somebody made the pattern, somebody cut it out, and and somebody else sewed it together. You're just like, oh, I have this costume, and somehow somebody or multiple people did something to make it happen.

[25:56] Adam Stocker: Yeah, I've I mean, I've I've always known that there's at least at least two or three people, because obviously there's designer who doesn't do much of the actual like cutting almost design.

[26:06] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, right.

[26:07] Adam Stocker: So there's the design, great. So there's that, and then under them, I would assume there's probably two people, which it sounds like there's at least two people, sometimes three or four. I mean, there's you there's at least three or four.

[26:18] Patrick Oliver Jones: And the designer is not usually in-house.

[26:21] Adam Stocker: It's like just some person who I who also never meets, who I never meet, also. That's just like, hey, uh, I'm that's the designer for the sometimes they get a tour of the costume shop that I work in, and I like no one says like that's the designer, they just like walk around and it's like okay, hi person.

[26:38] Patrick Oliver Jones: I guess if they're if you're at a regional theater, then this is a good thing.

[26:41] Adam Stocker: And they would probably know yes, yeah, they would know a bit more about it. And I have done things at like Glimmer Glass, the Glimmer Glass Opera Festival, where that is a little more intimate of an intimate setting where I've worked directly with the designers as a as a firsthand with my draper because they're also stuck there for the summer with me, but here it's come and go.

[27:07] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, speaking of that, story number two, you wanted to talk about the one time an outsider understood your job and compared you to an engineer.

[27:17] Adam Stocker: Okay, so obviously, since we've all come back, all of my coworkers and I have come back from lockdown, head in, strong. It was sort of like I cannot believe that we are paid what we're paid because we're doing the same kind of work as anyone else who does trigonometry every day, right? Maybe not a rocket scientist, maybe not a brain surgeon. But um, like an engineer, which is always what I tell people.

[27:44] Adam Stocker: Uh so my family, because I'm from the Detroit area, all of my family has filtered through the like auto industry. So I'm always like, well, I work on the engineering side of costume making. And it's like, what does that mean? I cut things out. Um but so this so this couple came in and they were given a tour of our costume shop, and the guy is an engineer, and he was like looking at what we do, and we had some pretty intricate costumes on our table at the time, which are like inarguably the hardest costumes we have ever had to make for Broadway.

[28:21] Patrick Oliver Jones: What would you say is that that show or that group of costumes that have been some of the hardest?

[28:25] Adam Stocker: Uh the costumes for six.

[28:26] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, because those women wear elaborate costumes as well as all the dancers.

[28:30] Adam Stocker: It's all plastic sheet that we use.

[28:33] Patrick Oliver Jones: Which is not a fabric.

[28:34] Adam Stocker: No. So it doesn't mold. It doesn't, you have to like really construct it. It's not just stitching, you're constructing.

[28:40] Adam Stocker: Yeah. We are engineering. So this guy was looking at the things we were working on, and he was like, this is like what I do at my job. And I'm an engineer. You're all like engineers. And we were like, it was me and one other coworker who heard it. And we were like, you're the only person who's ever walked through this room and like fully understood what we do for a living, which is engineering and it's problem solving. It's also like spatial awareness, because yeah, you have your like flat Stanley cutout, but then I need to turn this into a 3D costume. How do you do that? Go. How do you do that? And how do you make it not look strange? How do you make the hem perfect? How do you make sure the seams are balanced? Which is a term you don't understand, but it's when it's when the fabric is on the correct grain at the seams, and so it meets and it doesn't flare weird.

[29:32] Adam Stocker: I remember one time where I was trying to just get my sleeve extended. You know, I have long arms. That's always been my big thing. As soon as I go into a costume fitting, it's like halfway up my forearm. So that's always my big thing. So I remember I was asking them to do it, and I've started to learn a little bit, and I start looking at what's there, what hem is there, and I say, I think there's room, you know, or whatever. I'm trying to at least appear like I know what I'm talking about. But then they looked at it and like, no, we're gonna have to redo this because the grain is wrong. We can't, I was like, the grain? What do you mean? What do you mean? What it has to do with fabric goes in a certain direction. If you look at it, you can see those lines and it goes in a certain direction. And depending on that is the way that it can move and be cut, right?

[30:12] Adam Stocker: That's right. The way that it stretches, the way that it molds around your body. So like all of those like 90 spaghetti strap bias dresses are like so skin tight and hug the body because they're on the bias, which is when you cut diagonally on your fabric if it's a woven. 45-degree angle will get you your true bias. This is the engineering that us actors don't often know about. I just taught one of the other first hands my favorite term which I call mystery bias, which is when it's like not quite 45 degrees, but I don't have enough fabric to make a true 45-degree angle. And if it's for something small you can get away with it like a let's say it's a plaid shirt with a bias pocket. Now now explain bias just so we're understanding what exactly that term means.

[30:59] Adam Stocker: Okay so your fabric, if it let's just pretend it's a woven fabric, you have a big square of fabric. If you go from like corner to corner diagonally that is just called the bias. And if you pull your fabric straight in both directions it will like not move at all because that's how it's structurally supposed to be unless it's a stretch fabric, whatever. But if you pull it corner to corner on that diagonal you'll feel it stretch like it has give. So those are the places the bias are is the places where your fabric gives. So around the crotch seam of your pants, bias because it needs to move a little bit. But along the front of your pants, you can see the striation. I'm saying you, because you're wearing jeans, and you can see the striation marks of the straight of grain which goes down the front of your leg almost every time.

[31:46] Adam Stocker: Right, right. It's these little details that it's so interesting to go from a costume fitting to the work that you do to then create these costumes. And I think what's so interesting about what you do is that it's never the same thing. Like, yes, you may make the same costume for the principal and then their understudy, maybe a swing. So you might make three or four of the same costume, but they're radically different in sizes. It's not an assembly line where you're just making the same thing over and over easy easy. No, you have to construct each individual item. Yeah, and oftentimes you forget product to product, like what you did before, and you're like, oh, I have to make up this step. I really don't know.

I hope that hope it doesn't have to be a replica, which it never does in theater. It never has to be a perfect replica. But yeah, sometimes you're like, I just made this three days ago, and I know I have to make it again for the understudy, but how did I put that together? I hope it looks the same, you know, at least on the outside, it'll look the same.

[32:45] Adam Stocker: So this person who said that what you do as an engineer, I'm an engineer, you're an engineer. And it's so interesting to feel heard, to feel understood, to feel like, oh my gosh, someone gets me. What was it specifically to you that made that moment, that compliment stand out? Um, because he saw that we are worth certainly more than we're paid. Because we, I mean, immediately after that, we were like, you should see our paycheck. It is not an engineer's paycheck. Yeah. And he was like, ha ha ha, you know, a little not flippant. He was certainly wasn't flippant about it, but he was like, How do I deal with that in a social situation? Right. There's nothing he can do about that. So it was one of those moments where it was like, this gives me some power and leeway in a conversation ahead of time to say, like, what we're doing is engineering. And what we need to be paid needs to be engineering. Certainly, I'm not like building a car. No one's life is in danger by the costume. Unless you leave a pen in there.

[33:46] Adam Stocker: Unless you leave a pen in there, yeah, don't make me mad, huh? Yeah. Right. Right? Be respectful and I won't leave pins. I've always said there's two people, or two positions, rather, to always be on your side as an actor sound and costumes. If you have those two positions on your side, you'll always sound great, and they'll help you, you know, as you string the mic through wherever you need to go in the costumes, through the hair, whatever, they'll help you. And when you start getting a little big or a little small, or you rip something because, or you had that little piece of chocolate that you had to have, and why is it on my leg now? I don't know. When you do the as long as you have those two people on your side, they will help you.

Right. And it can be a really big help, especially on a tour where you're changing a lot. Then having a costumer or dresser, wardrobe people on your side can be very helpful. So I certainly applaud and see what you're doing. So I like it.

[34:44] Adam Stocker: I have a similar story that was also about a pay rate. And so every time there's a dip in COVID numbers, I go out and hang out with friends and I go and meet new people and have an exciting time. And I met somebody who asked me what I did for a living, and I was like, I make costumes for Broadway. And everyone else thinks it's like the most exciting job. I think it's just cutting things out, putting them together. It's like solving a puzzle. So then we were talking about different things I could make, different things that I have made, and he was like trying to figure out the cost of like just something he wanted made. And he was like, so then he's like going through like materials might be this much, and labor might be what 40 to 50 dollars an hour.

And I was like, oh my gosh, somebody just blurted out a number to create sounds really good. That sounds really good. Certainly more than what we make at our costume shop job. And that also gave me this like, oh my gosh, like people outside of the industry really do think that like what we do is amazing, and like really do think clearly that we get paid more or that we're worth more than what they might not know we're getting paid.

[36:00] Adam Stocker: And then the question always comes up, like, well, why aren't we just being paid that much then? It sounds like you feel like most people don't understand what it is exactly that you do, or at least what it's worth. Correct, and I know for a fact that people don't know what I do because the costume industry put on a costume exhibit in Times Square called Showstoppers, and I would go to the exhibit as like a presenter and like work at a table there and then explain to people what I do, and like every person that came through was like, I never knew that it was this complicated, or I never knew the amount of physics you'd have to do to make a costume. I never knew that you had to come with this set of skills, or I never knew you were paid so little.

Cause some people, the brave people would raise their hands and be like, How much do you get paid if you don't mind asking? And I have no problem telling you how much I'm being right, I get 21.50 an hour. That's after a raise that I asked for. But at the time, I was making $18 an hour.

[37:03] Adam Stocker: Which is so crazy because I can tell you what I make as a stand-in at the Tonight Show. That's not me on camera. I really just kind of go through the scripts of that show day, what they're about to tape, you know, rehearse a few things. Sometimes it's an hour and a half, sometimes it's four hours, you know. But that's my day. That's what I do. And essentially I get paid 200 bucks for the day, no matter how much I work. That even breaks down because of course, accounting-wise, for paycheck, it has to have an hourly rate so that they know how to figure it. I make 2450 on paper, but I'm guaranteed eight hours, whether I'm there an hour and a half, four hours, whatever it is. So even as a stand-in, which is literally I'm standing in.

No physics, no engineering, no trigonometry involved, and I'm getting 2450. Right. You know, at that time I was like $18 an hour. That's what I make. My take home was like $575 or something like that a week. Which is insane. And how do you live off of that in New York City when somebody, oh, I meant to look this up before I came here? Somebody just did a study to find out the minimum you would have to be paid to live in New York City as a single person with no dependence, and it's $23 an hour just to afford an apartment and like groceries.

[38:19] Adam Stocker: Yeah, this is not a cheap city. No, it's not. Yeah. I mean, you know, you can argue about minimum wage and what it should be here and there, but there are certain cities like New York where 15 makes sense that that should be a minimum. Right. Yeah. And most jobs are going to require more than that. As you say, 23 just to kind of get by and do the basics in this city. So do you see it changing? Do you see how or how do you see it changing? Um, it's being changed by force because people are quitting. Okay. Because they're not being paid enough. Can the union do something? Like basically say if you're a part of the union, you can't work at a non, which is what equity does. Equity says we can't work at a non-equity house.

Um, I right. Again, again, it's hard for people who don't speak English. It's hard for people who don't have a sewing machine at home. It's hard for people who can't get around the city as easily to take a union job that is not off of a subway line, which some studios really are not.

[39:20] Adam Stocker: And so it's a little bit of like you take the stability of a work week and a nine to six, and okay paycheck, knowing that you can make overtime, or you take the big risk, you quit your job and you leave for TV and film because you join the union because they let you, because you worked in a costume shop for three years and you make fifty dollars an hour. But that's maybe one day out of the week, maybe a week or two. Right. It could be a week or two, it could be a month, it could be two months, it could be just one day. So you don't know.

[39:59] Adam Stocker: Well, getting to story number three, I think everything we've been talking about leads up to this because you say that you have figured out that you are supposed to be a leader and a teacher. What is it that brought you to this realization? Similarly, a little bit by force after a lot of my coworkers quit because we weren't being paid enough and the jobs were too hard, and nobody says thank you. Right, the costume shops are not exempt from the great resignation that happened. So after kind of enough people quit, they hit me as somebody who enjoys a I enjoy being a leader, I like talking to people, I like teaching, even though I don't necessarily care to be a teacher in my future. So my job would like kind of send their new hires near me, like close to me, or if something was going awry, it was like, can you talk to them?

Can you do you have a project you can give them? Do you have something they can help you with? And I feel very young in my career as a costume maker. Like I've only been doing it in New York City for five years, and I don't feel like necessarily adequate at like I don't think I should be teaching somebody how to do my job. I feel like I barely know how to do my job.

[41:15] Adam Stocker: So then, of course, there's like these college graduates who are being hired because they can't find skilled people willing to be paid an amount that is less than what they're worth. And so the rest of us are kind of stuck, like training these college graduates how to make a Broadway costume after you know, our pattern maker quits, or we're not really used to working with a new pattern maker, or something like that. And because it's so skill-based, it also feels a little like, you know, I have this set of knowledge and this set of skills with like these specific people. But if you work anywhere else, you'll get a whole different set of skills from a whole different set of people that know a ton of other things.

So, like I'm lucky enough to work with people who worked in factories. And so I know these like kind of factory style things to do, or like where to get the really good presser feet in New York City, or just like weird tricks of sewing that make a perfect costume that you would never otherwise get to on your own if it weren't for a 75-year-old South American woman who's worked and doing it all her life.

[42:28] Adam Stocker: Yes. And this is something I just thought of. Like obviously, there are different acting techniques. There are different ways an actor can approach a scene or a character. Obviously, design is its own thing, but just the physical act of making it, there are different techniques about how to make this bodice or this dress or these pants. There's different ways. And most of the time, the technique of finishing kind of trumps all of those because you have to plan how to make it first to hit your means of finishing.

[42:57] Adam Stocker: Because sometimes you can make something and be like, I can't finish it the way that I need to. Just so we have an example. What is what do you mean? Okay, let's say you have to, okay, at the bottom of your t-shirt is what's called a cover stitch, and that's how you finish like a stretchy hem. Oh, when when it like folds underneath it. When it folds under and you see all of like the weird fun zigzag loopy loop stitching, cover stitch, and it's trimmed down to the cover stitch. So if your plan is to cover stitch something, then you need to know that there is like no seam allowance there to make it longer, shorter, bigger. You can make it smaller, and then you'd have to recover stitch it, but you can't grow, you can't make it grow because you cut it away.

So then you have to think. So then, like, all of your planning pre-cover stitch has to be like, I know the hem is perfect, or I know the sleeve length is perfect. I know this will be exactly what they want. Otherwise, you'd have to recut it. And nobody wants to waste the materials or the time to recut. So that's a finishing technique that does take, you know, you have to be really sure. Yeah, you have to know that finished product, what you're needing, and you kind of work your way backwards to okay, well, this is how I start to get there. Right. And similarly, like if you cover stitch the hem of a, let's say it's a t-shirt, then you don't have a need for seam allowance on the side seams either, which means like if they want to make it bigger on the side, maybe they can't, because you because if you cover stitch down that seam allowance and they make it bigger, then you just have to hope that the person who's letting it out has a cover stitch to recover stitch, or they have to just figure out their own way of hemming it, which might not be exciting for them to do.

[44:41] Adam Stocker: Right, because a lot of your work is passing it on to other people. So it has to be made in such a way that there's room, there's give, there's as they need to change it or alter it. Again, finish it to the person, then they are able to do so. Right. See, you're you're leading and teaching me what it is that you do right now. See? And finding the vocabulary is so hard because it's like these are words that I know that I know other people don't know, but they're not words that I know how to translate into other things. Like, sure, I can call my, I can say being a first hand is like an engineer, and you totally get it. But then I have to, you know, do I continue the mechanical metaphor or do I just give up and say bias?

And because there's not an engineer translation for that. So then you have your pattern makers who really do most of the planning for for the project. Um, and then you're sort of at the will of that plan, is like if it's complicated, if it's simple, and sometimes it's like the stitcher doesn't necessarily want to do it that way because they also have been doing this for 40 years and they kind of know how to do it the fastest and the easiest, which is ultimately what theater wants is the fastest and easiest and cheapest route to get something done, which is why it's frustrating to have handmade costumes for people that are supposed to look couture but are meant to be built cheap, easy, fast, but look amazing.

[46:10] Adam Stocker: Yeah, because on paper, you can do anything. Oh, totally. But once you have the fabric and start cutting, then your options start to start to narrow. That's right, because the physics of your fabric have rules, and you have to follow those rules. And oftentimes it's like, I just really wish gravity didn't exist. There's a lot of hems in Tina Turner that I really wish gravity didn't exist for. It's a lot easier without gravity. So when it comes to this teaching and leading that you're doing, there is certainly a difference between supposed to be or capable of being. Do you feel that you're there? Do you feel like you still have some ways to go before you are this leader teacher that you feel like you're supposed to be?

[46:51] Adam Stocker: I do, but I am like, and I've always been like this my whole life. I always feel like there is always more to learn. And I'm like this like super information sponge, and I just want to like, I wish I could open my brain and cram all of the knowledge into it and be like, I am super knowledgeable and I finally know everything. But that's just not how it works. So I so I seek out people who know more than I do, very specifically, so that I can learn. And like if I don't think I can learn something from you, I'm probably like as a mentor, I'm probably like, okay, I've got nothing. There's nothing here. Like you're useful for information only. But then they're coming to me and asking, I don't know how to do this.

How do I do this? And then you have to sort of be like, how would I do it? But then how would the person who taught me how to do it? How would they do it? Because there's no standard to sewing. It's just okay. Now there is a language to sewing. Like if I said understitch, they usually know what that means. Sometimes it doesn't, they think it in Spanish and then they say it in English.

[48:01] Adam Stocker: Right, because it might be a different term or phrase in another language. A lot of them sound so similar that it's really easy to be like, oh, you said cover stitch, I thought it was understitch. Or like, oh, I thought it was this because I cover the blah blah blah. And it's like, I see how you got there. However that is not the is not the case. But luckily, uh it's just it's just a costume and you can go backwards, and there's plenty of room for mistakes, which is why I actually kind of like teaching via sewing, because it's easy to make a mistake and undo. Cutting, my job, that's the hard-ish one. It's like I you can mess up a piece of paper pattern and retape it and you're okay. Uh if you cut the wrong way, you're screwed. You better hope that they overbought fabric and then throw that piece away so no one sees.

[48:56] Adam Stocker: Well, the thing is, just as you appreciated someone who understood your job, you know, the the engineer. Are there those who understand this teacher side of you, this leadership side of you? Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I think I because I like um arguing, I guess I'll say, I love arguing. I love telling people what I think, and I don't really mind the repercussions. And so it's I guess easy for me to to take a lead role. You know, I'll even like say, just blame me for whatever the problem is. Because at least where I work now, like I have not like clout, but like I do believe I'm fairly good at my job, and obviously my bosses think I'm good at my job because they gave me a raise. So there's a there's an amount of respect and and you know what you're doing.

Yes, and so it's easy for me to say, like, if somebody who's brand new, like their first week on the job messes up, I just I'm just like, well, just tell them I I told you wrong. Just tell them I told you the wrong thing. That's easy. Oh my gosh, and then I I'm a good liar, so I'll just make up a lie. Oh my gosh, I totally forgot that that's how we wanted to finish it, and so I cut it the wrong way, and then I gave it to them to sew, and they didn't do it right because of me. Or oh, I misspoke. And I assume that you are willing to do that number one, because you you feel somewhat secure in your job, so you know that you can do that, but also I assume because you've been there, you've made those 100%, 100%, and nobody likes to feel like a failure ever. Especially just starting, especially just starting.

[50:34] Adam Stocker: You're brand new at a job in New York City, and you mess up on your first project, which is exactly what I did, the first project I ever worked on in New York City. What project was it? It was for Big Apple Circus, and it was color blocked, so each color had to be on the side that it needed to be on for a pant, and I cut the wrong colors for the wrong sides, and oops, but guess what? It's just a pair of pants, and nobody was hurt. I cried in the bathroom. It luckily was just for a mock-up, which is when you try on your costume not in the real fabric. Because if you cut that out of your fabric, I mean you're just asking for a disaster. So I cut the colors on the right leg for the left leg and left leg on the right leg, and I felt horrible.

Like about I was like, I don't even know my left from right, which is like such a spiral thing to say. I of course I know my left from right. But if you don't read the pattern correctly, to say like this side up for left, this side up for right, which is oftentimes a pattern maker will write that for you, sometimes they don't, and you either have to work up the courage to ask a question, which is also a really hard part of being new at a job, is like you walk into the job and you're like, I think I know some things because I just graduated with a degree in costume making, but everyone else in the room probably thinks I don't know anything, and so if I ask a question, I'm affirming that they think I don't know anything, which is never the case, of course, especially in a skill-based labor where you have to ask questions and you have to learn more, otherwise the skill doesn't get better. You're just left with the knowledge that you have.

[50:57] Adam Stocker: So I cried in the bathroom after cutting it out wrong and putting it together wrong, and of course it was just a mock-up, so it didn't matter anyway. Like someone just cut it out correctly the next time in real fabric, you know, and I was like, all that for now, all those emotions on my, I think it was my second day of work. I cried over truly nothing, yeah. You cried over clown pants. I cried over clown pants, yeah. Yeah, but the thing is, it's like whether you're an actor, whether you're a costumer, it's these little moments. You know, like I've had so many on-camera stuff where I have one or two lines. One or two lines are not that big a deal. But if you mess up those one or two lines, you feel like I cannot speak English at all.

I am a horrible person. As you said, that spiral. And so I think that's important for all of us to recognize that we all start somewhere. And no matter what job we're in, there's someone else starting somewhere. Yes. And no matter how long you're in the job, mistakes happen. Oh, yeah. Doesn't matter how long you've done. There are many a times I've corrected patterns for pattern makers, you know, their whole professional life is pattern making. And I'm like, uh, these seams don't match. Can you uh explain to me what's going on? And they're like, oh, I just forgot.

[53:32] Adam Stocker: Right. Right. Right. It's the little had I cut it out and it was not matched, and then I give it to the stitcher, then the stitcher says, You cut this out wrong. And then I'm like, I cut it out wrong. I followed the pattern, I swear. Right. But then if the problem is the pattern, then especially in in our business. No one's is, I don't think no one is gonna sabotage either the rehearsal, no one's gonna sabotage a costume pattern or something. It's like obviously people are trying to do their best and they just forgot this or cut this wrong or whatever they did. I think there's both an expectation, which there should be an expectation of of doing the right work, doing good work, and being professional mixed in with grace of we're all human.

Mistakes happen. We're all artists, you know. I think it should be stitched this way. Well, but I've been doing this 20 years, it can stitch this way. Right. You know, these these differences, and just understand that there's give and take. What you do really is as much an artistry and engineering as what we do.

[54:29] Adam Stocker: Exactly. On a very positive note, I do think that one thing that's changed since lockdown is that uh, at least in my industry, like almost nobody cares when you mess up anymore. Like you can mess up. If it's not for if it's not for a really high profile client and you mess up, it's okay. At least I have been. And I'm pretty loud about it too. So I'll be like, oh, it's okay. Whatever. I'll just recut that part, or I'll let's just resell it a different way. Let's change our plan. Why bother keeping this same plan if we've come this far, made a mistake, and you can fix the mistake. Like, there's no need to make a whole hubbub about this mistake was made. Oh my gosh, how horrible. Now everything is wrong. It's like, no, just move on with our day, please. I'd like to just keep going.

[55:19] Patrick Oliver Jones: Exactly, exactly. Well, this has been a joy to talk to you. So good meeting you. And and I appreciate you really shedding light on something that I understood to a point, but you've definitely opened my eyes up to a bit more of it. So thank you.

[55:32] Adam Stocker: Of course. Thank you for having me.

[55:38] Patrick Oliver Jones: Thank you so much for joining Adam Stocker and myself today. But remember, the conversation continues with the final five questions on the WINMI blog. You'll find a link to that in the show notes or by going to why I'll never make it.com. This week's listener feedback actually comes from an anonymous listener over on Podcast. They write, Patrick Oliver Jones is a clever, dedicated New York City actor who shares his knowledge, interests, and how best to navigate the entertainment industry through interviews and insights with savvy experts in the most entertaining way possible. His podcast should be Required Listening.

[56:23] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, how kind of you to mention me, and I'm glad you're finding WINMI to not only be informative, but also entertaining. And frankly, I think anyone who listens to this podcast should require all their friends and colleagues to do so as well. Don't you? Right? So spread the word.

[56:45] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, that does it for me. Patrick Oliver Jones in charge of writing, editing, and producing this podcast. Background music is by John Bartmann and Blue Dot Sessions. Why I'll Never Make It is a WINMI Media production, and it is a part of the Helium Radio Network and a member of the Broadway Makers Alliance. Join me next time as we talk more about why I'll Never Make It.