This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Patrick Oliver Jones: One of the main themes and messages of this podcast has always been that success can mean different things to different people. And how someone gets there, if they get there, seems to take a different path each time. Today's episode is with someone that I had the privilege of working with in the musical adaptation of First Wives Club back in 2015 in Chicago. We were gearing up for a hopeful Broadway transfer that unfortunately never happened. But Carmen Cusack gave a memorable performance in that show and went on to star in her Broadway debut of Bright Star and most recently Flying Over Sunset. Her journey to Broadway has been a unique one, from Denver and Texas to London and Shanghai. And all the while, she just wanted to be in an intimate jazz lounge, singing the standards of Sarah Vaughan and Ella Fitzgerald. But as you'll hear in her three stories, that bumpy road to success is as much a personal journey as it is a professional one.

[1:06] Carmen Cusack: When I started, I was already burnt, but I was not a fan of musical theater. It's something that I landed into because I wanted to sing and I also wanted to act. I didn't own a musical album until I had to audition for something.

[1:24] Patrick Oliver Jones: Welcome and thank you for joining me for another episode of Why I'll Never Make It, a top 25 theater podcast. I'm your host, Patrick Oliver Jones, an actor and singer, talking with fellow creatives each week as they bring us three stories from their own life of personal struggles and professional hardships with lessons we can all learn from. The website is Why I'll Never Make It dot com, where you can sign up for the Win Me newsletter and offer generous support of this podcast. Again, that's why I'll never make it.com.

[2:03] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, Carmen, it is a joy to be with you to be in your home.

[2:07] Carmen Cusack: Yes, welcome to the chaos.

[2:10] Patrick Oliver Jones: I know you were telling me you've only been here about a year, but you're still kind of working trying to make it a home.

[2:16] Carmen Cusack: Well, I'm embarrassed to say it's a little bit over a year. We closed December 14th, 2020, which god I have no idea how that actually happened during COVID, but it did, and it was a long, crazy, crazy process of trying to buy a home during the pandemic. Oh my gosh. What a stupid idea. Um, but we and I we gave up at one point, and then this came back on the listings, and I was like, let's just just let's go look at it. And we're just gonna do asking price, and we're not gonna get into bidding into a bidding war because we've been through every bought that t-shirt, and and I don't want to I bought sweets from that shop not doing that again. Um, because we're actors and we're unstable, and this was a pandemic, and nobody knew what was the hell was happening.

So um, it just seemed crazy at the time. And I just said we're gonna go win the listing price. We're gonna, and if that's and if they take it, then okay. So we closed 14th of December and moved in the 23rd of December of 2020. Then I've been away half the time because luckily things started, you know, happening again, and my husband went back to work, but he works at Burbank Studios. He's got a bit of a more stable, I I should say touch wood when I say stable, because anything can happen. But so I get to just at the moment do these gigs that don't, you know, just be creative and do gigs that I enjoy and not necessarily the ones that that pay all that big money.

[3:41] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, I think that's what's interesting because you've you've been on Broadway, you've performed in New York, yet you live in LA. And I think most people just assume, well, if you're on Broadway, you obviously live, you breathe New York, but yet you are not a New Yorker. And so how do you balance that kind of travel? And do you just go to New York only for certain projects, or are you kind of open to traveling whenever, wherever?

[4:03] Carmen Cusack: I go wherever the work is that I feel at home at. You know, you're you're it's where I lay my hat. My home is where I lay my hat. And and but as long as my husband can be with me for 70 per 80% of the time, then I'm I'm happy I've got to do that. So he travels with you as much as we kind of travel with each other as much as we possibly can, and luckily he's an actor, so you know, he gets he works three three weeks out of the month, and and so it's been it's worked out for us. We've been very lucky in being able to stay, you know, to stay connected. Um, you know, even though we have sometimes have to be apart.

[4:37] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, that's I think that's the thing with any actor balancing the personal life, the relationships with the career. And it's gonna be a different path. It's gonna be a different puzzle piece to put together for every actor. And every gig.

[4:49] Carmen Cusack: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And each gig, because depending on if it's in Carolina or if it's in back in your hometown of Denver, or it's in New York or London, you know, it's all gonna be a different path to get there.

[5:00] Carmen Cusack: Yeah, and luckily both of us enjoy traveling and enjoy experiencing different, you know, atmospheres and climates. And so we both we enjoy it for the most part, until we don't, and then we want to come home. And and luckily, you know, finally we have a home to come to, which is nice.

[5:18] Patrick Oliver Jones: That idea of enjoying it, sometimes not enjoying it actually leads us into the first story that you wanted to share. And this was a time when you were in London, you had done the West End, you had been done the big shows, Phantom, Le Miz. You you were on top of the world when it comes to like, you know, musical theater. And yet you were burned out. You were you were ready to be done with it. And you just wanted to be a jazz singer.

[5:42] Carmen Cusack: Yes.

[5:43] Patrick Oliver Jones: You left theater. What was it that burned you out?

[5:45] Carmen Cusack: I guess when I started, I was already burnt, but I was not a fan of musical theater. Um it's something that I landed into because I wanted to sing and I also wanted to act. And it seemed like I mean that is musical theater. I guess it is. Why don't you like it?

[5:58] Carmen Cusack: I know, but I knew I could do both. So I was like, you know, I I felt I felt like I was gonna bite off more than I could possibly chew to just say, I'll just be a you know, go into the movies or get a TV show, um, or just be a recording artist. It seemed like dipping the toe in and trying myself, you know, challenge myself in both areas. It seemed like the easiest gig to get at the time. And you know, I was young and I could get they were gettable were the roles in musical theater, even though I I can't say that I I didn't own a musical album until I had to audition for something, and I had to go and buy the album so that I could learn all the music from it. And some of it I was like, oh God, fast forward, fast forward, don't like that, don't like that.

Oh, now I have to sing this song. Okay, I guess I can do it, I think I can do it eight times a week. And then you just you just continue to do things that you don't actually love, like singing the same songs that you would never listen to, you know, if you were sat at home or cleaning the house or doing whatever a read. And yet I was finding myself doing it eight times a week and thinking, what am I doing?

[7:03] Patrick Oliver Jones: So is this aversion? Did you find that in Phantom and Le Miz? I mean, these are like the pinnacles of a lot of people's like bucket lists.

[7:11] Carmen Cusack: I know. Sorry. Some of the songs I could I could just about stomach eight times a week. But others were just like, I put my earheads on and just, you know, backstage and oh God, this again. Just, you know, turn down the taboo. Hope I didn't miss my my entrance or my cue. Luckily, you know, I I wasn't fired for anything, and and I managed to get make all my my cues, even though I half the time I couldn't listen to it all eight times a week. And then I just thought, why am I doing this to myself? I really want to sing jazz, but there's no money in jazz. But I just thought, you know, there's not in England, there's no money in in theater anyway. So why not? But even in these big shows, I mean, were you still not making quote unquote good money?

[7:58] Carmen Cusack: Shocking to me. At one point, I it really dawned on me the truth, uh, because they do hide the truth from you when you're there and surrounded by other actors that are just making the same amount of money, and you just kind of make it work, and you're always, you know, in debt, and and it's just that's what you do. Everybody's just always in debt, and I guess that's the life that we've decided to live. And then one time I got asked to go um merge with the American company of Le Miz. Camera McIntosh wanted to do this experiment where he took some parts of the West End, merged it with an American cast, and then took a West End show to Shanghai and see how we developed within that culture and how they developed with this, you know, this Western show.

And BBC documented it, and it was just a real really cool thing to do it. I so I remember one time going out with the American cast and having a beer, and one of the guys just cheekily enough asked me, So what are you making on this? And I was playing Fontine along with Come Wilkinson, and he was one of the ensemble guys. And I thought, well, I'm making all I'm doing all right because I was in the middle of a contract as Fonteen in Le Miz in the West End when Cameron McIntosh found, you know, at the last minute, he needed someone that that could work in America, that he didn't have to go through the green card process because the girl that was actually supposed to do it uh burst her appendix at the last minute.

So he needed somebody that knew the role and that could step and work in America immediately. And so we had we got to negotiate, renegotiate the sums, and I was quite happy with what I was getting. So I was like, yeah, I think actors should talk about this. So this is what I'm getting. And he'd taken a swig of beer and it and then he it literally like spewed out of him in, and I was like, Yeah, I know it's a lot, isn't it? And he said, That's our base sum. That's what we were getting three years ago for an ensemble. And I was playing the lead, you know, one of the lead roles. And that's when it really dawned on me that's so then did it turn out he was making more than he was making more. He was making probably three times more. And that's when it really dawned on me that I need to get my butt back to America and make some money at this.

[10:10] Carmen Cusack: They were taking the piss, they were taking the piss out of us, you know. And you know, we were paupers, literally, you know, like in old England times, just felt like I was a pauper, um, working my butt off and still not being able to pay my bills. And I was I was tired of that. But as you said, there's not much money in jazz, so why did you think it was going to be better?

[10:35] Carmen Cusack: At least I would enjoy doing the music.

[10:37] Patrick Oliver Jones: Oh, okay. All right.

[10:38] Carmen Cusack: At least all the songs I was gonna sing, and I wasn't having to do it eight times a week, I was gonna have more fun doing it. I love working with other actors and I love the liveness of it all. You know, there was so many factors which kept me involved and kept me doing it eight times a week. But then I just thought, I just want to break. I just want to see what else is out there. So that's what I did.

[10:58] Patrick Oliver Jones: Now, what's interesting about jazz music is that most of it comes from musical theater. So you're still having to do musical theater as jazz standards.

[11:08] Carmen Cusack: But that's what's so funny. But the but the great thing about jazz is you get to have fun with it. Um, because you get to play around with the melodies and you get to do your own acrobats and still tell a story, but not necessarily with lyrics. Tell a story through the ch the choices of the notes that you decide to hit in this the riffing that you decide to do. That's the story in itself. And that's I love the freedom of that.

[11:34] Patrick Oliver Jones: Now, are there jazz singers that you get inspired from or that you either emulate or or wanted to be like that motivate you as a singer?

[11:43] Carmen Cusack: Well, I was inspired by all the greats, you know, Sarah Vaughn, Billy Holliday, and even Ava Cassidy. I don't know if anybody knows you're familiar with Eva Cassidy. Uh, as soon as I heard her voice, I was like, well, that's something that I I feel like that was that's the way I would phrase that before I even heard her. I would have done it that way. The way she approached the phrases were very much similar to what I would do.

[12:06] Carmen Cusack: And then, you know, then I found out she had died very young and tragic. But I just loved listening to her. Uh like saxophonists and and musicians inspired me in the jazz realm, rather, not just singers.

[12:22] Carmen Cusack: Well, that's certainly one thing that I learned whenever I was first getting into jazz music and that kind of uh freedom, as you say, is that jazz singers oftentimes will approach the song as an instrumentalist.

[12:34] Carmen Cusack: Absolutely. How would the trumpet approach this versus the trombone versus a saxophone? And use our voices in the same way that those instrumentalists are.

[12:43] Carmen Cusack: Exactly. Because each instrument is telling you a different story.

[12:46] Carmen Cusack: Well, for me, it is. It's like colors. When I hear music, sometimes I s I feel colors and I see colors and and it's just all those beautiful connections just really inspire me. That's why I was like, I don't care if I make nothing at this.

[13:01] Carmen Cusack: I just need a break and I want to do this right now. So then as you're this jazz singer now, you've you've put aside musical theater. Did you feel like, okay, now I'm where I should be? This is what I should be doing.

[13:11] Carmen Cusack: It was funny how it all came about because it was on I when I decided this was the day I was gonna start do singing jazz, it was literally New Year's Eve. And we were I was hanging out with some mm some mates at the pub, and we all kind of went around the circle, you know, what's your New Year's resolutions?

[13:29] Carmen Cusack: And and when it came to me, I was like, I want to sing jazz, and I want to sing at Ronnie Scott's and I want to sing at Pizza Express, and just hit all those, you know, those cool venues in London that I wanted to sing at.

[13:42] Carmen Cusack: Because I had started gigging. I would do Le Miz, and then I'd run over on every Thursday night to do this gig called the Kitch Lounge Riot. And I would do like Dusty Springfield and uh just all this kind of cool 60s stuff and Dion Warwick and it was a really cool band.

[13:58] Carmen Cusack: And I just loved hanging out with the band and musicians and communicating music live in the moment and creating something together in a in the liveness of it all. That's what got me interested in thinking, I can do this, I want to do gigs.

[14:14] Carmen Cusack: I just want to do gigs. And the phone rang about 10 minutes later, after I had said that. And it was a guy called Leo Green. He was a saxophonist that was getting a band together, and he was a son of a famous journalist slash DJ.

[14:28] Carmen Cusack: And it was New Year's Eve. And so he had this big gig to do, and the singer didn't show up. And he said, But I got your number off of another mate. What's your list of songs? I was like, well, you know, basically all the jazz standards and then some.

[14:40] Carmen Cusack: And he said, Well, work it out. Can you get here at so and such time? And I was, you know, hanging out with my mates at the pub. And I was like, in so and such in half an hour, okay.

[14:50] Carmen Cusack: So I thought, guys, I think this might be, I gotta, I gotta do this, you know. And after that gig, it went really well. And uh he said, Do you wanna? He just basically hired me on the spot and they had a tour, you know, of just all the venues that I wanted to play.

[15:06] Patrick Oliver Jones: That's that that's wild. So you were finally in your own mind, in your own heart. You were now home as far as the the kind of singing.

[15:14] Carmen Cusack: Musically, yeah. I was like, I was happy, I was so happy. But then you then you realize, oh, but I need to pay my bills too.

[15:22] Patrick Oliver Jones: So yeah, so so it still comes back to money, but at least your soul was being fed.

[15:26] Carmen Cusack: Yeah, it was a lot better. I enjoyed it. So did you see this break from musical theater as something more permanent or really just something temporary?

[15:35] Carmen Cusack: Let me get this out of my system and I'll come back to it. I've never, I don't make permanent nothing's really permanent for me. I just I just have to go with where I'm at in this moment.

[15:47] Carmen Cusack: This is I'm feeling dead. It's not giving me joy anymore. So I gotta find something else. So I never stay too long in something if it's not giving me joy.

[15:57] Carmen Cusack: So I I never said, oh, well, this is gonna be it. Because there were things about theater always that will give me joy. Then when I given it a break, I'll come back to it and I'll come back with it with fresh eyes and a fresh feeling and a fresh body and just ready to take that again.

[16:13] Patrick Oliver Jones: As you said that, that correlated to me with our own personal lives and relationships as well, that we tend to go where the joy is, and there's this stereotype of actors and performers being, you know, bouncing around for this relationship that when have you found a bit more stability in your personal life, but still maintain that freedom in your artistic life.

[16:35] Carmen Cusack: Well, when I decided I was gonna do some jazz, I wasn't, I think I was single at that point. Um I was enjoying my singledom and um and just you know, taking things that opportunities that came along.

[16:49] Carmen Cusack: Um I was never one of these gals that just would hop into bed with anybody. And I'd you know, you'd have to really gain my trust, and that would take time, a lot of time.

[16:59] Carmen Cusack: So I didn't really, I just kind of dated a little bit here and there, but uh didn't really have a full-on relationship until my second husband, till the my present husband that I'm with now.

[17:13] Carmen Cusack: And we're just looking at it, we've been together now 19 years, which is crazy. But yeah, at the time when I started doing the, you know, the jazz, I had I just started dating him, I think.

[17:23] Carmen Cusack: So he was there, he was supportive. But I will say I think it does help to have to have some stability in some part of your life, so that you can just kind of bounce about and play with other parts of your life.

[17:35] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, that was for me.

[17:36] Carmen Cusack: Well, yeah, I do think that there's a correlation where we need to have that personal stability so that our artistic being can then be free to go in any direction.

[17:46] Carmen Cusack: Yeah. And he has been a rock. My husband has been as my stable rock, whether it's emotionally or financially.

[17:54] Carmen Cusack: You know, we both had up our ups and downs with the finances, but but we've been each other's rocks throughout all that, which is very I feel very, very lucky, very blessed.

[18:09] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, that leads us into the second story that you wanted to share. And this one had to do with the musical Sunday in the Park with George.

[18:19] Carmen Cusack: You've had a very tumultuous relationship with this musical.

[18:23] Carmen Cusack: Yeah. And it began with you auditioning for it and not getting it.

[18:27] Carmen Cusack: And so you were like, never again.

[18:30] Carmen Cusack: Well, that's actually I you would you're nearly right there. I never got seen for it.

[18:33] Carmen Cusack: I couldn't get in the door to be seen.

[18:35] Patrick Oliver Jones: You never even auditioned.

[18:37] Carmen Cusack: I never got to audition for it. Um, so that just put a B in my bonnet about the whole project.

[18:43] Carmen Cusack: So I never looked at the show, never saw the show, never showed any interest in in except for the the odd songs that I thought were really fun and beautiful, like move on, um, that I would do in concert work.

[18:54] Carmen Cusack: You know, there were songs from it that I had to learn to for concert cabaret stuff that I was doing in London. Um, but overall I never saw the show, didn't really know what it was about until I had to until I actually then did get an audition for it when I had finally come back to America for Chicago Shakespeare.

[19:12] Patrick Oliver Jones: So, what exactly led you to audition for it again, even though you had you'd kind of written it off?

[19:17] Carmen Cusack: Well, because that time had passed, and I, you know, I I was okay about it at this point. And I, after doing so many, learning so many sawn time songs and realizing he's a writer for actors, he is a lyricist, composer for actors.

[19:33] Carmen Cusack: And I have to do one of one of his shows at some point in my life. And then I circled back to, you know, I got this opportunity and was like, well, okay, it's I'm destined to play this role.

[19:45] Carmen Cusack: And so it luckily it did come, it did happen. But then, of course, I didn't know anything about the show and showed up the first day of rehearsal.

[19:52] Carmen Cusack: Uh, not off book like everyone else in the room was, which I thought was rude.

[19:58] Carmen Cusack: How dare they?

[20:01] Carmen Cusack: How dare they be prepared? Jerks. Um, so uh yeah, it really kind of put me on the on the the back foot, and the director was like, who is this person that's playing Dot Marie?

[20:11] Carmen Cusack: Uh and so there was a lot of skepticism, and I'm not used to having skepticism with my director.

[20:19] Carmen Cusack: And because I I'm my own skeptic. I'm already the person that says you can't do this.

[20:24] Patrick Oliver Jones: You must have just felt like behind the eight-ball from the get-go.

[20:26] Carmen Cusack: Yeah, where at one point I was wearing a t-shirt uh one day, and I was singing at trickle a sweat, the back of the head, you know, we've done this.

[20:35] Carmen Cusack: Another book well, and and luckily I was wearing a bra at the time, so um, but he decided I was not hitting some moment for him, so he got a spray bottle and decided to start spraying me while I was singing the freaking song.

[20:49] Carmen Cusack: And and at the time I thought, okay, maybe if it I was open to it, okay, hit me, you know, hit me again.

[20:57] Carmen Cusack: And I just, I kind of enjoyed, I guess I enjoyed the the spontaneity of that and thinking, oh, okay, maybe this, and I'll grab something from this, and that'll be what he needs.

[21:09] Carmen Cusack: Uh I was open to it, but then, of course, apparently the rest of the cast were just mortified that he'd done this, and they were all asked to leave and go do some music work.

[21:17] Carmen Cusack: Then later on that day, we came back to it, and one of the girls was like, I can't believe he did that to you. I can't believe and he was she was telling all the cast, and and I was like, Oh, should I have been angry about that?

[21:30] Carmen Cusack: Maybe I should have. Oh, okay. And I just felt, you know, mad at myself that I wasn't bringing what I needed to bring, and that that he had to go to that extent.

[21:38] Carmen Cusack: But he they were angry on my behalf. And so once she brought it up, did it then make you start to be angry at that or listen to it?

[21:45] Carmen Cusack: Yeah, then I realized how then I thought, well, yeah, that was pretty that was pretty awful that he did.

[21:50] Carmen Cusack: I guess it was pretty awful that he did that. I mean, because we spray cats when they misbehave, you know.

[21:55] Carmen Cusack: So but I see, I was just so I whatever gets the job done. Uh, and and yet he they were kind of right.

[22:04] Carmen Cusack: I mean, that was kind of not cool to do that to me. Um, and then I just thought I was like, gosh, yeah, that was really awful.

[22:11] Carmen Cusack: But it still made me think, but how awful he had to do that. He felt the need to do that because I wasn't, I clearly wasn't doing something for him.

[22:19] Carmen Cusack: I don't know. Maybe deep down we all want to be spanked and and harassed to some degree.

[22:25] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, it's the some attention is better than no attention.

[22:28] Carmen Cusack: Right.

[22:29] Carmen Cusack: But did you feel that this being behind was it just okay, okay? Well, I just didn't prepare, but I'm still good. I'm still ready for this role, or did it make you doubt your own ability to do the role?

[22:41] Carmen Cusack: Well, I was doubting my voice at the time because I think my voice was going through a slight change. And I was doubting my artistry all together.

[22:50] Carmen Cusack: All to because, and probably a lot of it had to do with that. And I didn't even, I wasn't, I was blaming myself rather than him.

[22:58] Carmen Cusack: I was like, oh God, you're you're just awful. Carmen, how did you fooled them until now? They're not fooled anymore.

[23:06] Carmen Cusack: So what are you gonna do now? And I was questioning my artistry, my vote, my voice, what the hell I was doing.

[23:13] Carmen Cusack: And then all of a sudden, I realized, oh wait, this story is about questioning our artistry. Duh.

[23:20] Carmen Cusack: Poor George.

[23:22] Carmen Cusack: I know. And then I just thought, oh, this is hilarious. I've been sitting here taking up smoking and crying at the end of every rehearsal.

[23:32] Carmen Cusack: Um, and maybe that's probably why my voice was giving me jip, because I decided to take up smoking, because I just was a nervous wreck.

[23:41] Carmen Cusack: And then I thought, no, you know how to do this. Trust yourself. Just because you came in not knowing every single word of every single lyric and ever and all the book, um, you've been doing this for a while now, Carmen.

[23:55] Carmen Cusack: Don't let these other jerks tell you otherwise. Trust your instincts and embrace the fact that you're questioning what you're doing as well.

[24:06] Carmen Cusack: Because as an artist, that only is only gonna make you better sometimes.

[24:11] Carmen Cusack: I mean, not always, but it can really help you to adjust and try something from a different angle.

[24:19] Carmen Cusack: You know, I've always questioned, I've never gone about something with a hundred percent confidence. And I think that's what's helped me get the jobs because for the most part, because if you go in already deciding what you're gonna do, then you're not keeping you're not leaving yourself open for what the director wants to try and what the other actors in the room need to you you're not allowing yourself to be open to the moment, and that's that can be very harmful to your craft.

[24:54] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, because I don't know if you found this to be true, but I know that the auditions that I went in and was so confident and like this role is mine, I know it. I you know, and I just nailed it. Those the ones I rarely get those.

[25:06] Carmen Cusack: Isn't that interesting?

[25:07] Patrick Oliver Jones: Right.

[25:07] Carmen Cusack: And everyone connects to vulnerability, and especially when you're trying to form something and mold something that's not 100% developed. Nothing is 100% developed. And to go into it saying, I'm making some choices, and I'm bringing my own experiences and my own damage and my own pain to this. And everyone can connect to damage and pain. And I think that's where people get excited to see something, you know, in a moment in a live scenario when you go up on a line and you're like, it's those magic moments, and no one can it's something it's indescribable, those moments, and all of a sudden everyone's like, oh.

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[26:21] Carmen Cusack: There, there it is. There's that real moment, and you have to try and capture that at all times. And that's vulnerability mixed with experience and craft. But not knowing we're just we're here for this moment, and who knows what the next moment's gonna bring.

[26:41] Carmen Cusack: I think that goes back to what you were talking about in your first story about jazz and the freedom and the way that in the moment you go a different way with this note, or you maybe, you know, kind of paraphrase a certain lyric so that it means a little something different or means something more. It sounds like that that process of the musical theater is what you really crave.

[27:04] Carmen Cusack: That um and sometimes it doesn't go gr in the great place because if you're with like in a jazz moment, a musician, you'll think, okay, I'm gonna do this. And if this guy goes here, then it will be magic. It'll be like an orgasm. But then if he goes this way, oh no, it could be catastrophic. But either way, we tried something, and it's always worth it in the end when when it when you get the orgasm. Sorry to turn this into sex, but although, well, I mean, you know, it's a very visceral part of our existence on the personal side.

[27:37] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, it's worth it to try. But also, I think that that is is something that we strive for artistically. We want those explosive moments. We want those times when it's like everything is just in alignment. It's not prepared. It comes together in its magic. It's just a magical moment.

[27:53] Carmen Cusack: So then doing Sunday, you know, you'd written it off for so long, you finally get to do it. Did it match whatever expectation you had of finally getting to do it?

[28:02] Carmen Cusack: When the light bulb hit, it was probably the third or fourth week into rehearsals, which is why, you know, right about when you're gonna go on stage and start doing it in front of people. But when the light bulb hit, it was um indescribable. It was like, oh, got it. Because when I realized how beautiful that show was and how intricate and crazy and chaotic. Because, you know, the first act and then the second act is just totally different, different beings, is when I thought, oh God, I don't, this is more sophisticated than my head. I'm not smart enough for this. The devil was creeping in. But then I don't know. It was just like literally one day, it was like the sun came up and the music was playing in my head, and it was just, it was glorious.

And I was like, ah, it was was almost like I had woken up into another being, and it all just kind of slotted into place. And it was like in just in the it in one day, it just kind of everything aligned, and I understood and it made sense. And I can't explain why that was. It just everything made sense, and I started to understand that what I was actually doing was right because I was questioning it all. And the fact that I was embracing my own reality was slotting into place with this role, with this job, with this the story that was that we were all telling.

[29:37] Carmen Cusack: Those light bulb moments are an integral part of every actor's journey, whether they happen on stage or in the audition room. And in this week's bonus episode, Carmen talks about one particular audition for the 2008 revival of South Pacific at Lincoln Center. Now, in the audition room, she played the character of Nellie Forbush in a way that had big time casting director Bernie Telsey shaking his head. Now, bonus episodes like these are only available to monthly supporters of Why I'll Never Make It. But I do want to take a moment and give a big thank you to Brianna Anderson, who recently donated through PayPal, and I couldn't be more grateful for her support. So if you'd like to help this podcast as well, then please consider either a one-time donation or if you'd like access to the bonus episodes, then a monthly subscription by going to why I'll never make it.com or just look for the link in the show notes.

[30:45] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, he wrote and directed a new musical that opened in December 2021 at Lincoln Center called Flying Over Sunset, with Carmen as the lead actress. And she explains what it was like to work with this luminary figure of American theater.

[31:01] Carmen Cusack: Well, I'd had a little taste of being in a room with him because I had agreed to do you remember the concert version of Sunday in the Park that they brought to New York with Jake Gyllenhaal and Allie Ashford. Gosh, I agreed to uh do the concert version with them. I so I was in the room with James and Anna at some point pulled him aside and said, You know what? Because of you and Sunday the Part with George, this show, I nearly quit the business. I nearly had a nervous breakdown and quit the business. And he said, Oh my God, why would you do that? He said, We were pretty much high the entire time we wrote that. And I said, That's what I thought. That's exactly what I thought. Because it's kind of crazy, but it's perfect. Um, and he said, Oh, yeah, we were totally high the whole time. I think that's the explanation of how it goes from act one to act two.

[31:49] Carmen Cusack: Right, exactly. Yeah. It's just the chaos of it all. And then all of a sudden it makes sense in this weird way. And I kept thinking, God, I wish I could just have a little joint and then watch this show, and it would all fall into place so perfectly. So then getting to be directed by him more formally for a full production in Flying Over Sunset. Now he conceived that, wrote that, as well as directed it. So it was a very personal piece to him. And did I assume you got that in the way that he directed in the way that he uh approached the piece with you?

[32:25] Carmen Cusack: Well, I was lucky enough to um get in on the workshop or two before we well, it was we we workshopped it there at the Lincoln Center, and so I I wasn't sure of the piece to begin with. I I was sure I wanted to work with James Lapine. And but at the time in 2019, the uh I wasn't sure. You know, there were so many other conversations that the world was having. I wasn't sure if this conversation was one I want I needed to be a part of. But I wanted to work with James on something that was new and interesting and collaborative. Um, because I just was, you know, Sunday in the park was kind of a little bit life-changing for me. Um I I did the workshop and thought this is great. Still not sure, but I want to be a part of this.

We'll see if it comes back around. It came back around. My aide, my reps were like, don't know if this is the right time to do this because it's pilot season and yada yada. And we were just a circle, we were just about to hit 2020. And but I thought there's something about it. I still need to be a part of this. I still want to see where this goes. So I did the second workshop, and then we started to put it on the stage for Lincoln Center, and 2020 March hit the pandemic.

[33:48] Carmen Cusack: Right, stopped every day. The day we were supposed to open for our first preview was the day that Broadway closed. And the storyline of Flying Over Census is about these people in these places in their lives where they're they're questioning their lives, kind of like where I was in my career, questioning what the f am I doing? Um who am I? How can I go back to my pain and bring that back to life and and merge it with this craft and make it authentic and not hurt myself in the process? You know, just and that's that's what these people were doing. It's about this story of these people trying to having to look at their past and deal with their pain and deciding to try LSD together and see how how they communicate and how they connect with each other.

And it was all it's all about connection. And then I realized after the pandemic that we needed to have, we really more than ever needed to have that conversation. So I was just so rare and to go and ready to come back to that project and James Lapine and and with a new uh frame of mind and a and a clearer head as to what what I really wanted to bring to the table on that show.

[35:01] Patrick Oliver Jones: How much did the show change from that 2020 when it would have opened to then when it opened in December of 21?

[35:10] Carmen Cusack: I think for all the actors, we'd we'd have all been changed. We'd all had evolved. And we were also ready to come back to a room and see each other's faces and be and be with each other and then understand how important that story was to tell. Just to be here in this room with you, Patrick, is that special. You know, instead of looking at you on a screen, there's something just so more interactive about that.

[35:37] Carmen Cusack: And listening to the weed blower outside, you know, it's all so interactive and connected in some crazy way.

[35:44] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, it's all about being very present. And it's interesting that you bring that up about the use of psychedelic drugs, LSD in the show. And in a way, these characters were trying to be more present. They were trying to kind find something within themselves that maybe was lost or that they locked.

[36:00] Carmen Cusack: Yeah, and then they didn't know how to get into it. And I know that us as actors, we can sometimes feel that way. As you've even mentioned it yourself.

[36:14] Carmen Cusack: And then a light bulb on the case. All of a sudden unlocks. And you can't even put your finger on or define it, but it just something unlocks. But you just have to stay in it and trust it, whether it's the project or yourself or the director, or maybe a little bit of everything, but just trust that we're on this planet to do something, right? To do something with our lives. And I believe, and I've oh, I believe for a very long time that I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing. At least I feel confident in that. I might not feel confident with the project that I'm doing, I might not have all the answers, but that's where the special sauce is. Not having all the answers, but finding them together as you go along.

And it might be the very last performance that another thing unlocks. And you're like, ah, there it is. But that's also what's exciting about being able to do a show more than once, you know, to do eight times a week. You find something every time you go out there, if it's something that you're loving. So with that in mind, I've certainly had those shows where I kind of just had to white knuckle it through. I just had to push. I just had to do that. Well, there was one that it was a new show as well called Treasure Island. And, you know, I had my difficulties in remembering this line or getting that musical cue, and you know, it was a new show, so things were changing. And come opening weekend, I was still in a haze as far as, well, wait, when does that happen?

How does it? So I just wasn't as prepared as an actor, but then also my emotional state was like, oh my gosh, can I do this? Can I? And the light bulb unfortunately didn't hit till a week into the run. Well, that can also be about the project, you know, because they need to understand what's not hitting, what the actors—that's why we help them to create things because maybe there's, you know, it's a story issue, you know.

[38:09] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah. For you, whenever you've had those moments when the light bulb hasn't come on yet, what do you do to keep going?

[38:17] Carmen Cusack: Um, well, when you're in a thing that's beginning to move in some kind of direction, and it's a new thing, I think you just have to be open. I what I have learned in these new processes is to trust that your own instincts and what you've learned, they've asked you to come and help them develop something. So you have to be open with them as to what's not working for you, and can they help you get there? And there's a way of saying that, and there's a way of asking for that without it seeming like you're criticizing. But at the same time, if they're smart enough, they're gonna understand that that's actually she's not getting there because there's something here that I need to look at. And so I think you've just got to trust yourself that every question that you're asking them is helping them too.

[39:09] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, it's interesting as you say that, thinking back to my own troubles with that show. I took the responsibility 100% on myself. And yes, there were things that I could have done better or differently. Yes. But at the same time, as you bring that up, it's like, because the director did come to me and said, How can we help? And I didn't know what to say. And I think had I been more aware of what exactly was wrong, what exactly wasn't clicking, then I could have said, Well, what if we did A or B and maybe try this? Then yeah, then it could have been that collaborative help. It's not always our job to be the problem solver. I take it upon myself to try and do things without egg on my face. So I've got to make it work somehow for myself, so that I don't come out looking like an idiot. But it's not we can't always solve the problem, it's not always our job to solve the problems. That's, you know, in the writer's hands also and the director's hands to captain the writer.

[40:03] Carmen Cusack: Like it was such a wonderful collaborative experience to do Bright Star and watch a legend, Steve Martin write things that you think, oh, everything's gonna be genius. No, it's not. He, yes, people see the finished product with him for the most part, but to be in a room, seeing what he was throwing at the wall and what was sticking and what wasn't was such an eye-opener and such an experience for me to understand that none of us popped out of the womb a genius. No. We just have to try, try, try and try again. And if you're smart enough, like he is, he is a genius because he's smart enough to know what he needs to change because he's listening to the people that he's giving this stuff to. And he would be there every single time.

He'd write another line, knowing, not sure if it was the right thing. And so anytime I would say the new line, he would creep up from some, I swear he was probably the ninja at some point in his life too, because you never all of a sudden wear Steve Martin. And then he would be like literally nose to nose with you, like at your, you know, at your back, just listening to how I would say it. Or he would see a facial expression that I would pull that was like, uh, how do I say that? But I wouldn't literally say, Steve, this doesn't what? What did you write? But he would be there to see any little face, like I think my face kind of tells it all into what I can understand and what I'm not understanding and how does that connect with this?

And so he was always there, even when you didn't know he was there, he was there to ask because he knows as well we've got to make it work. And if we don't understand, then there's something we've got to figure out together. That's what makes him a genius. He's open to understanding that he needs a lot of other people around to say, oh, that's funny. Oh no, that's not. You know, because he learned on the spot with an audience as a stand-up. It's a constant learning curve. But Edie Briquel as well was like turning out these amazing songs, these beautiful, heart-wrenching numbers, and then having to throw the baby away, like literally have him to throw the baby off the train to make it work. And Walter Bobby was there to captain both of them into how we needed to get there. It was a fascinating experience to go through.

[42:27] Patrick Oliver Jones: And it, you know, took years. Well, I mean, it certainly paid off for you with Bright Star. I mean, you got a bunch of nominations. You, you yourself got a lot of critical acclaim for that. But both Flying Over Sunset and Bright Star didn't exactly meet up with expectations as far as their run, as far as finances and the audiences connecting with it, and both closed early. Whenever a show closes early like that, do you blame the show? Do you blame yourself? Do you think, well, the audiences just didn't get it? What went through your head?

[42:59] Carmen Cusack: I think a lot of things. Um, timing. We came on the same year that Hamilton did. And um there was that. We were also in the court theater, which is kind of it's a sweet theater, but it's kind of off in the distance. It's not where the tourists, it's not a tourist attraction area. Yeah, it kind of is sitting in the back. I think that was a choice that went against the run. I also think, you know, not everyone that comes to New York and wants to see a musical would necessarily think bluegrass. That was another thing that was outside of the box. But another reason why I wanted to do it, you know. I wanted to sing that kind of music. It was more of what I grew up on, and it was in my special natural spot.

And I wanted to work with Steve Martin and Edie Briquel and Walter, you know, just the whole lineup of people. But yeah, there were some things going against us at that time. But mainly I'd say mainly the big one being Hamilton. I mean, they kind of the spotlight just kind of went d-dong and everyone else kind of was hidden in the bushes.

[44:13] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah. And with Flying Over Sunset, I think it's kind of the same thing. People don't come to see a Broadway show and think, oh, let's go see LSD. You know, people on LSD.

[44:24] Carmen Cusack: Yeah. I mean, because it was a very unique show for Broadway, but I assume it was a very unique show for you as a performer.

[44:31] Carmen Cusack: Uh very unique. And in that I grew up highly religious, Bible belting. I never did drugs ever in my life until I became an adult and then realized how awesome they were. No, but um, no, no, don't do drugs people. But I will say this. My parents had me when they were teenagers. So they would play house at the end of the day at the school day down in the basement and look after me, and they would have parties. And one day my mom did catch me teething on a tablet of acid in the shag carpet. So there you go. That was my first introduction to LSD at two years old. Um, so then it was totally fitting that I should at some point do a show about LSD.

[45:17] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, did your mother tell you what happened to you? Like, what did a two-year-old Carmen do on acid?

[45:23] Carmen Cusack: Um, I probably had a really good time. Um, she took me to the emergency room, and the doctor said, Well, she's too young to pump her stomach, so just keep an eye on her, you know, and she'll just have a good time for maybe a few days. I don't know. Anyway, that's my excuse.

[45:42] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah, and when you're two, you can't really verbalize what you're so who knows what you went through. That was just a very happy time in your childhood.

[45:53] Carmen Cusack: Oh my goodness, that's crazy. But um, but yeah, because Broadway, you know, Flying Over Sunset, as we said, that was just your second Broadway show. And is Broadway the pinnacle for you, you know, in this kind of back and forth love-hate with musical theater? Where did Broadway fit into all that?

[46:13] Carmen Cusack: Honestly, I know it is a bucket list for, you know, people that enjoy musical theater or theater of any sort, you know, it's a bucket list. I want to be on Broadway. Um, but it was never—I just wanted to do things that made me happy, that I enjoyed, that inspired me. Um, and I learned pretty quickly from other artists that would show up and, you know, and talking with other artists, you know, that not every gig was gonna be inspiring. And sometimes you just—I always knew that that wasn't necessarily the pinnacle of my life. I would just wanted to do stuff that—I just wanted the gig. I just wanted to enjoy the gig. And if that meant doing Kitch Lounge riots riot in Cafe de Paris at 11 o'clock till three in the morning with really awesome musicians, then that was living.

I was living the life, you know. And that Broadway would come when it came, but I wasn't gonna push it. I wasn't gonna just say, oh, I'm just gonna work as a waitress and save up to go to New York. I was just gonna take life where it would take me. And life took me to the UK for 14 years. And the West End picked me up and I went on that ride, and that was fun. And I don't know. And I guess in the back of my head, I just thought, Broadway will happen if it does. And if it doesn't, maybe that means I've got this great recording contract and I'll be touring with the band. Or you know, maybe I'll get that really cool, fun acting job on a TV or a movie set. I just kind of kept it open for whatever. And maybe that's my lack of ambition. I don't know.

[47:57] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, or much like being a jazz singer, you were just open to the freedom of where this note was going to take you or where that lyric was going to be.

[48:22] Carmen Cusack: But also it was a chance for us to stop, think, realize things about ourselves as people, as artists.

[48:31] Patrick Oliver Jones: And our third story, you wanted to share the realization that you came to when it came to the pandemic. And you had been writing your own music for a while, but the pandemic made you realize that no, this I'm really good at this. I'm a legit writer. This is what I can do. So it made you think of yourself or take yourself more seriously in that respect. What was it that caused that light bulb moment?

[48:56] Carmen Cusack: I don't mean to sound I'm not trying to make the pandemic trivial, but with the pandemic came so much death and so much tragedy and loss of work and just so much loss. But you know, with every glass half empty, you have to see the glass half full at some point. Otherwise, what's the point at all? And so, with that in mind, I started to realize what a gift it was to have a moment to not have the constant pressure of having to of being employed, not have the constant pressure of having to create, having to make something all the time, having a moment to just sit back and be quiet and really think about what we're doing, why we're here, and what does that bird outside, what is that bird telling me?

It was so nice to have the quiet, and so nice to hear my own inner thoughts. You know, you don't drink need drugs, you don't need LSD to really hear that inner voice sometimes. You sometimes just need the quiet. And that's I think what the pandemic gave a lot of us, if we allowed that.

[50:05] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, because I know for myself that's something that I've had to struggle with, because I tend to want to escape that voice because it can be a negative voice. It can be something that reminds me of that downtime and why didn't you do that and what happened there and all the what ifs in my life. Does your voice go there, or does it tend to, as you said, open you up to more realizations?

[50:29] Carmen Cusack: It goes there.

[50:31] Carmen Cusack: Yeah, my inner voice goes back to pains in my life, my upbringing, my choices that people around me made, and then therefore the choices that I made and all of it I'm thankful for because I'm happy, you know. The things that were inspiring me were those, the dark, those the darkness. The darkness inspired me to write to sing about the light and the dark, and I think that's a perfect balance. And the pandemic brought me back to the darkness of what it is like to be isolated, what it is like to not be able to contact your friends, or to have the fear of holding someone or hugging someone, being in a room with another person. I never thought I would miss that as much as I did. Because I do enjoy my I spent a lot of time by myself as a young, young kid until my mom remarried, and then my life kind of exploded in that way.

But I spent a lot of time by myself and I enjoy that time. I've always I've never felt uncomfortable by myself because my mind, you know, is always there's always music in my head constantly. It's finding the lyrics to go with the music that is my challenge. But this pandemic just opened up space to express myself in a different way. And I can't really explain that, but just having the quiet and knowing that not everything has to be filled with another word. You need the space. And writing songs is about not just about a bunch of lyrics, it's about a feeling, it's about a vibe, it's about a mood or a color. Again, you're not bound to what's just on the page, because now you're creating the page.

[52:33] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah.

[52:33] Carmen Cusack: And you're able to take a story or go in a particular direction or theme or subject. You know, and it's really up to you as far as where the piece goes.

[52:44] Patrick Oliver Jones: Mm-hmm. Are there topics then? Are there things about you that are difficult to write or maybe I don't want to go there?

[52:53] Carmen Cusack: Oh no, I you can go anywhere. I've I'm okay to go anywhere now because it's all part of the life experience. And therefore, if you can put it, you know, some artist or be able to, you know, throw it on a canvas, all of it. And whether you see it or not is up to you. So that's how I'm approaching the songs, my own writing, my own ability to write stories. I can know what I'm singing about. That doesn't necessarily mean that you're gonna get the full picture of what I'm, you know, and that's the abstract of it all. And that's what I'm what I'm trying to encapsulate now. That I'm still gonna throw it all out there. It's whether you see it or hear it or not.

[53:40] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, I think what you say is so true. I know back in my high school college days, I got into poetry. That was I wasn't a songwriter, but I could do like basically the lyrics, the poetry. And I was dealing a lot of it was helping me deal with my own sexualities as I was kind of figuring that out at the time. And even though it was my own writing, I wasn't going to share it with anyone. I was still a bit abstract about it. I was still like instead of just talking about, well, I'm trying to decide, I'm sexual, what do I want to I would talk about the fork in the road and which path do I choose? And you know, this path looks like this, and I would describe that path. This path looks like that, and describe the trees or the ground in a very abstract way.

But in my own mind, I knew what each of those paths meant. And with writing, that's what we can do. We can tell a story that the audience is going to be like, oh, that's interesting. Whereas you're like going through crap, trying to get that story out.

[54:37] Carmen Cusack: Well, that's what I'm trying to do, is going from the abstract now. Because, you know, you go through these elevations of your own craft of being literal and then, okay, how do I go about it? You know, not being so literal and coming going about it more abstractly. And so that's that's that's the excitement about writing is having all, you know, coming, trying to come at it from these all these different angles and still being able to express everything. And I'm just, I've just gotten so excited. It's just it's enlightened me again with the whole being the whole pandemic and being quiet and always being the vehicle for someone else's story, and also being able to tell your story through their story. That's what I've enjoyed through the process of being, you know, their vehicle. But now I realize I'm not scared to tell my own story. I don't need to protect anybody else anymore. That's where I'm at at this point in my life.

[55:31] Patrick Oliver Jones: I think that's something that I've had to it's taken me a while to learn as well, in that I've played characters, you know, ranging from the villain to the leading man to the love interest, you know, all these different, and I've put on that character. And it's taken me a while to realize how much of me needs to be in those characters too. Because for the longest time, it was just a chance for me to not be myself, for me to be this other person and be this other life that I wasn't living. But it's only once I started, and I remember this happened in college once. We were doing a play called To Jillian on her 37th birthday. I don't know if you've heard of the play.

[56:10] Carmen Cusack: Wow, that's a title.

[56:11] Patrick Oliver Jones: Right. And it's about Jillian who died, and it's her 37th birthday. And so it's chronicling the husband's journey through that death and coming to terms with it. And I played the role, you know, but then there was the one night, and it was interesting. One of my professors was there, and it comes down to the pivotal moment where he he finally comes to terms with it. He finally is not pretending anymore. He's he's he's not just you know putting on a good face. And because in college, you know, you just do the one-week run. So like I think it's like Monday through Sunday or something like that. And it was the Thursday night performance, and it was the first time I'd ever actually cried on stage. It wasn't me just to I was like in it, and I could barely get the words out.

[56:57] Carmen Cusack: Isn't that just a special it's yeah?

[57:00] Patrick Oliver Jones: I mean, I mean, even now, like that was 20 some odd years ago, and I still remember that night. I remember that feeling. I remember, oh, and I just was like in it. And so I think it is important that we that we recognize how much this art form, as wonderful it is to be alphabet, to be this green thing that sings beautiful songs. There's still a bit of us that has to come out. That's that's the probably the biggest thing I've learned through this whole career process, and hope to continue to embrace is myself and my own pain. Like I don't need to put it to the side anymore and pretend to be somebody else. I have to to become the better artist to elevate anyone else's work. I have to be unafraid to embrace my stories.

[58:06] Carmen Cusack: My definition of success, making it is the freedom. Oh God, living in the moment. Yeah, absolutely. Embracing your own truth. Whether or not anyone else sees it as true, whether or not anyone else likes it, takes to it.

[58:20] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, and not caring.

[58:22] Carmen Cusack: Yeah. Yeah. I think that that's it's a vulnerable place to be, but it's one of the more powerful stances we can take in our life to recognize that I'm enough for who I am and what I bring to this life. Own it. Own your own story. This has been such a joy to talk to you and hear your stories.

[58:35] Carmen Cusack: It's a great place to be, and I think it's something that we all strive for. Because would you say that that has become your definition of success, really making it?

[58:42] Patrick Oliver Jones: Oh, thank you so much for sharing and opening up with us. It's been fun.

[58:46] Carmen Cusack: Thank you, Patrick.

[58:52] Patrick Oliver Jones: Thank you so much for joining Carmen and me today. But remember, the conversation continues not only with that audition story bonus episode, but also with the final five questions on the WINMI blog. You'll find a link to that in the show notes or by going to why I'll never make it.com. This week's listener feedback comes from Charla, who reached out to me on Instagram and said, just wanted to pop in and tell you how much I enjoy your podcast. I don't have any clue about the inside of the acting world, but I do enjoy a good interview, and you are great at it.

[59:28] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, thank you very much, Charla. I really appreciate you listening and enjoying this behind-the-scenes look at the theater world. And I hope you're learning something in the process. You too can follow this podcast on Twitter and Instagram at WINMI Podcast.

[59:47] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, I'm your host, Patrick Oliver Jones, in charge of writing, editing, and producing this podcast. Background music is by John Bartmann and Blue Dot Sessions. Why I'll Never Make It is a WINMI Media production, and it is a part of the Helium Radio Network and a member of the Broadway Makers Alliance. Join me next time as we talk more about Why I'll Never Make It.