This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Ethan Steimel: There are two fundamental sides to every actor. The artistic part of us that loves rehearsing and performing. And then there's the business aspect, which handles money, contracts, and other details. Both are obviously crucial to our success, but while we're good at taking lessons, getting coachings, uh joining classes to work on that creative side, we aren't often as diligent or even aware of our need to build up our fiscal muscles and business know-how. That's where Ethan Steimel comes in and his podcast, Artistic Finance. He crunches the numbers and breaks down the nitty-gritty of various financial concepts, helping us creative folk to see ourselves as a business. Artistic Finance is conversations with artists about the money and the business side of show business.

And my mission is to help artists avoid simple financial mistakes and also help them find the easy steps to take, and then most importantly, provide a space that any artist can get any money question answered without shame, without guilt or stigma.

[1:15] Patrick Oliver Jones: Welcome to another episode of Why I'll Never Make It, a top 25 theater podcast featuring honest conversations with fellow creatives on what holds us back and the challenges us as actors and artists face. I'm your host, Patrick Oliver Jones, an actor and singer who knows firsthand the ups and downs we all confront. The website is why I'll never make it.com, where you can sign up for the WINMI newsletter and learn about upcoming guests and useful artistic resources. Again, that's why I'll never make it.com or look for the link in the show notes.

[1:55] Patrick Oliver Jones: 2022 not only brought a new season for this podcast, but also a new title to my portfolio. Founder and CEO of WINMI Media LLC. You see, for the past 30 years, I've been performing with a little producing on the side, but then in 2017, this podcast started, which added another component to my producing and hosting duties. So now with this LLC, I'm bringing together my performing, producing, and podcasting under one umbrella. But honestly, I've been my own business for the past 30 years. This LLC just makes it official and legal. And it was in this new role as both an actor and now a business owner, that I came across Artistic Finance, hosted by Ethan Steimel. I brought him here to talk about his podcast and introduce an important episode on how artists should treat themselves as a business.

[2:57] Ethan Steimel: Thank you so much for joining me today.

[3:00] Patrick Oliver Jones: Thank you for having me and for arranging all this. I'm absolutely thrilled to be part of your show and so, so happy that you've welcomed me to your community.

[3:08] Ethan Steimel: Absolutely. Always glad to have another member, right? Well, now, professionally speaking, you are a lighting designer and have worked on about 60 shows since 2013, which is a bit mind-boggling to me. Uh, so I would imagine that you've had a pretty good handle on balancing that creative and business side of your career.

[3:29] Jonathan Cerullo: I love that you mentioned 60 shows, because it's probably more like 120.

[3:35] Ethan Steimel: Right. I was undercutting you.

[3:37] Jonathan Cerullo: Yeah, you know, it's like how, you know, I don't know when I last updated my resume or the list. Um, but and that's not necessarily something I I'm proud of, because I'd rather do like three shows a year, but just have them be Broadway shows. So I'd prefer to have only done 10 shows, but like really 10 massive shows Broadway. You know, yeah.

[3:55] Ethan Steimel: Oh, I get it. I'm right there with you. But as far as designers go, that's not unusual to have a number of shows because we, you know, we check for a week or a month and then we set it up and the actors and the run crew keep with it, and we go straight into tech for another show. So if we do a show a month, that's easily 12 a year. Um, and I'd say most people are doing, most designers are doing more than that. Um, but I also love that you think I have a handle on my business and the financial side of my career. And I will say, yes, that I do keep a spreadsheet of my deductions. So in a sense, I'm organized, and when it comes to tax time, I have my spreadsheet that I use every year, and I just copy paste and then fill in the new information. But I do get behind. My goal is to update it once a month.

[4:41] Jonathan Cerullo: But oh, I've had that same goal. It is really tough to like sit down with those receipts once a month, though I get it. So, uh, let's pretend, but I'm not, you know, that rarely happens. So if I update it twice a year, that's good. Um, but when it comes to tax time, which tax time for me is January through April, like that entire four months is all tax time. Um, so that's when I'm, you know, one day I sit down and go through this credit card receipts, then the next day I go through another credit card receipts, then the bank statements. So, uh, I don't consider myself having a handle on it, but I do know it just goes in one of the boxes on the spreadsheet. But I am a work in progress, so, and I say that because I started Artistic Finance so that I can ask people questions and learn from them and learn what I should be doing for a business.

Um, and in the case of Jonathan Cerullo, who we'll hear shortly, he's treating himself as a business. And you, this year opening up your LLC, you're treating yourself as a business. I'm not quite there yet. But I appreciate that you think so highly of me. But yeah, total work in progress here.

[5:49] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, I certainly greatly appreciate you for sharing one of your episodes specifically about treating our artistic self as a business entity. And it's with Jonathan Cerullo, a director that you've worked with a couple of times.

[6:02] Ethan Steimel: Yeah, uh, the most recent thing, which was pre-COVID, so I guess that was forever ago. But the most recent thing was The Boys from Syracuse at Theater Row. And I also lit a musical called Chance, which was by composer Richard Eisen. And that's where we first worked together, and it was in a festival setting. And I'm sure all of your listeners know that a festival scene, um, to put it crudely, is a wham bam, thank you, ma'am situation.

[6:27] Jonathan Cerullo: Yeah, yeah, and if you can create something artistic in a festival schedule, then you sort of hang on to those collaborators because you know, one, you have a shorthand that you've developed with them, but they also know some shortcuts to sort of make something look good, elegant, even if perhaps you don't have the budget or the time. So you sort of hang on to those people. So that's Jonathan for me.

[6:50] Ethan Steimel: That's great. That's great. Well, why don't we talk a little bit about this episode and what we can expect to learn from your conversation with Jonathan?

[6:59] Jonathan Cerullo: Yeah, so Jonathan has an interesting story, and he's also a lovely storyteller. There's something about just him talking that makes you want to listen. He started as a dancer, but now at this point in his career, he's been a director and a choreographer, and also like you, a little bit into producing. He's been doing that for longer than he was a dancer. Um, then we talk about his transition from being a dancer to becoming choreographer and director, and then of course, incorporating as an LLC. And unlike me, he's very organized with his legal documents and he's always clear on his legal obligations for projects. And like you, you and I, we're gonna collaborate again in the future and talk about LLCs specifically.

Well, Jonathan has one, you have one. Secret is I have one, but I don't use it. I consider it like I don't treat myself as a business, so I have it, but to me, it's like a dead weight around my neck. So Jonathan is quite the opposite. He's really good about that. And what interested me in chatting with him is that every year, once or twice a year, I get this newsletter from him. And I've been getting it for years. And I know that as the creator of Artistic Finance, and I think we all know as the creator of anything, everybody needs a newsletter. Or you need somewhere that you can connect with your community that's off of social media. And also, by the way, I know that Why I'll Never Make It has a newsletter, which you just mentioned. And I'm gonna sign up right after we finish recording.

[8:28] Patrick Oliver Jones: Thank you. Thank you. And so I thought I'll get him on and I'll learn to sort of replicate his actions. Now, it has been several months since his interview on Artistic Finance, and I still don't have a newsletter or a mailing list. And that brings up the recent point that a guest made, and she said, knowledge is not power, applied knowledge is power, which is so spot on, and that I hope stays with me for the rest of my life. So Jonathan, in this episode, supplies the knowledge, and the power is gonna come when I or you apply it.

[9:10] Ethan Steimel: You're listening to Artistic Finance Podcast, where your host, Ethan Steimel, interviews successful artists, leaders, and investors to help educate and inspire artists to grow their wealth. Welcome and thank you for listening. I'm your host, Ethan Steimel. We are recording this October 13th, 2021. Today our guest is director, choreographer, executive producer, and former professional dancer, Jonathan Cerullo.

[9:39] Jonathan Cerullo: Well, first of all, Ethan, thank you for having me on this. Um, what a successful endeavor you've been doing with this. Um, as far as myself is, um, I just turned 60, so I'm grateful that I'm of that age and I have a perspective on this career that I've been working and doing for the past 40 years. Um, so I live in New York City, um, uh same apartment for 39 years. I graduated from Emerson College with my Bachelor of Fine Arts and Directing, Minors in English, Photography, and Dance, uh, which will play a key role in my life. I have a twin. I'm a twin. Uh, my other half is math and science, and I got the arts and humanities. Uh, so that's a wonderful part of my life.

[10:26] Ethan Steimel: I want to move to your creative and financial personalities. What is a live event that you like to experience?

[10:33] Jonathan Cerullo: I like to experience good theater. I was a Lucille Lortel nominator for that prestigious award for the off-Broadway.

[10:41] Ethan Steimel: What does that mean that you were a nominator?

[10:42] Jonathan Cerullo: My union, the stage directors and choreographers union, asked me to be part of the nominating committee for this award. It's the Lucille Lortel Award, which has been around for decades, and it actually governs the Off-Broadway, like the League does Broadway and the Tony Awards. This is the Off-Broadway Awards. It completely has to do with the rulings, the size of the house, what the contract you're on, all of those machinations. We say off-Broadway, and the shows that are actually off-off-Broadway or off-off-off-off because people throw around the term off-Broadway, but if you're up for a Lucille Lortel award, that's actually the real off-Broadway. That is a legitimate codified, recognized collective bargaining agreement for that particular level of theater.

[11:27] Ethan Steimel: You are right. People toss around off-Broadway, but really it could be a showcase, and that is not considered off-Broadway.

[11:34] Jonathan Cerullo: It is considered a showcase, uh, or any other machination thereof.

[11:39] Jonathan Cerullo: Uh, and there are so many different requirements that a producer must fill.

[11:44] Jonathan Cerullo: The producer actually has to be a member of the Off-Broadway League.

[11:47] Jonathan Cerullo: So it's governed by, you know, it's sanctioned by various rules and regulations.

[11:51] Jonathan Cerullo: But the Lucille Lortel, Outer Critics Circle Awards, and the Drama Desk Award are all sanctioned to nominate off-Broadway.

[11:59] Jonathan Cerullo: And that award, in combination with the Joe A.

[12:03] Jonathan Cerullo: Callaway Award, which is a peer-to-peer award that's given by the Stage Directors and Choreographers Union to each other. There's no outside nominators that are part of that. It's just directors and choreographers looking at directors and choreographers' work, recognition from your peers. It's a peer-to-peer award. Whereas the Lurk Lortel, you've got scenic designers, you've got a whole gambit of a crossbreed of various persons looking at that, a lot of journalists, critics, etc. Through that, in answer to your question, I spent eight years doing this. It was getting a PhD from Yale Repertory Theater, Harvard Business School, MIT, every Ivy League school, it rolled into those eight years that I could have never paid for.

It sharpened to a laser perfect focus. What constitutes good theater? And it could mean a whole gambit of different criteria. Boy, I tell you, the one thing is if it didn't catch me in the first five minutes, I knew it wasn't going to catch me. It wasn't going to make me sit up. Because when you have such a plethora of work, I understand so carefully now what even the Tony Awards committees go through to recognize someone in their field. They're not kidding. They are not kidding. That is a tough competition out there. I'm grateful for it because when you say what events do I like? I like good theater. I mean, I really do. I don't mean to sound so silly about that, but I think that's a great answer because the same thing with people who nominate for the Tonies, they have to go see every single show.

If it's good, if it's bad, and if they miss one, they're not allowed to vote for it or in that category. They're not allowed to vote. You are to recuse yourself from a category if you did not see. You are to recuse yourself from a category if you've missed one out of the four shows. You can't even, and they keep track. They know who's gone where and when you showed up and when you didn't show up. And also, because I know people who nominate for the Tonies and they have to go see every single one of those shows, but there's actually more off-Broadway theater than there is Broadway theater. I saw in an average year over 200 plays and musicals. So over the eight years, you do the math. It's literally thousands, thousands of shows, you know, close to thousands of shows that it was quite an education.

Which you can do in New York, and I think people from other cities that don't have as big of a theater scene think, you know, because that's every other day you're seeing a show. You know, 200 shows a year. It's every, yeah, because those are just the off-Broadway nominated or potential. Then there's Broadway and the dance and the opera, which is not part of the off-Broadway categories. I rolled off as they call it after, you know, the eight years, and I was grateful to do that because it really became a chore. I stopped enjoying going to it. And like I say, I could tell within five minutes if this was going to be nominated, that wasn't going to be nominated. You can't do that. So I needed to take a breath and take a step away from it.

Being where we've been, not being able to go to the theater. I'm grateful that it came when it did. I'm kind of want to go back to it now. So the Lord Tell Committee, if you're listening, you know, call me.

[15:24] Jonathan Cerullo: Onto your financial personality. Are you good or bad with money?

[15:29] Jonathan Cerullo: I am careful with money. I am respectful of money, and I'm terribly afraid of it.

[15:36] Ethan Steimel: Have you been afraid your whole life?

[15:37] Jonathan Cerullo: Yes and no. That fear changed over time. I'm blessed to have been brought up in a very stable household. As I talked to my dad, I said, if I lived one ninth of your life with what you've built for yourself, I would be a happy camper. So my hat's off to you, Dad. I said, how did you do that? Well, how did you figure that out? He goes, very simple. Two words. Hard work, period. He didn't necessarily teach me the value of a dollar, but he told me I couldn't have the dollar until I earned the dollar. That was the connection for me. As I grew up, I realized that I needed to be careful with my money because it wasn't falling off trees. I needed to respect it because it could easily take me to a place that I didn't want, or it could put me in a place that I could be at a loss at. Part of me became afraid of it too, because at one point in my career, I was earning quite a substantial salary. I was in a big production that I stayed with for a number of years.

[16:39] Ethan Steimel: What was the production?

[16:42] Jonathan Cerullo: It was, so there was the London production and then the Broadway production, those Los Angeles production, and then my production of this little musical called Cats, which I was very blessed to be cast in, as my mother would say, well, at least she made the top five. And that was, I was the fourth person in the trajectory of that show to be cast as the Skimbleshanks character, Skimbleshanks, the railway cat.

[17:09] Ethan Steimel: So, well, Skimbleshanks, it's an honor to be talking with you.

[17:12] Jonathan Cerullo: Thank you so much. And as many have said, you were in the Hamilton of your times. You were in this absolute mega, mega money-making musical that no expense was spared in it. And we were very fortunate to be making incredible salary. When I realized how much money I was making, I was like, ooh, I can buy that, and I can buy that, and I could do that. And then I thought, oh, wait a second, hold on. Pull those reins back. This is your nest egg, and this is going to be your retirement. And this is going to be where you're going to have to, you know, live off of for X number of years. And you know, so that happened a few times. I was in a, you know, Knockwood, a few other big shows like that, which was wonderful.

And I'm careful with it. I am respectful of it because where I was taught to handle it, but I can be very afraid of it because I think, well, what if I make, you know, X millions of dollars? Who will I be in relationship to that? It's an interesting thought process.

[18:13] Ethan Steimel: So you said you were making a very good salary. That was a union show. What was a weekly fee? And I not to date you, but I know it was a long time ago.

[18:23] Jonathan Cerullo: So the minimums and all that are different now. Not that different, I'm sorry to have to say, because I do look at the figures that a chorus, well, I was on a pink contract, which is a chorus contract, but I had a rider because I was doing a role that had a number. And you know, when equity sees a show, they determine who gets what. That's on them. It also depends on if you're above title, if you're below title, and what color contract you're on, pink or white, simple. That hasn't changed. But the rider is what really started to get the money going. The other thing too, you have to understand this was the national tour, so we were on per diem. There were ways that you could figure out how to save your per diem because that was just money in your pocket.

You had your salary, your base salary. I had my additional rider for doing Skimbleshanks. We also got hazard pay because of the rake on the stage, and we also got time extra to come in to do our makeup. There were all these little, you know, add-ons that happened. By the time I was walking out of there, I mean, I think it was two grand that I was making a week. At that time, I was okay with it, you know. I think the job was, you know, maybe a little bit more, but whatever it was. When I went to get my earnings from the union from the Actors Equity, the lady puts the paper on the table. And I had several other shows that I was Broadway shows, and I looked at the thing and I was like, did I actually make that much money?

I was like, are you kidding me? I said, where the hell did it all go? You know, but you know, that like I said, it was, you know, quite a while ago, but that money rolled into an IRA account. It rolled into my pension and welfare, it paid for health insurance. So the benefits were wonderful. So I'm a pro-union guy, and because I belong to every union under the sun and then some.

[20:17] Ethan Steimel: Amazing. And how long were you with that show?

[20:20] Jonathan Cerullo: Two years.

[20:21] Ethan Steimel: Two years.

[20:21] Jonathan Cerullo: And I immediately went into another, I mean, immediately like a week later, I left the show, and then I went into another Broadway show, which I was another nine months on. And then I did another Broadway show after that. So I was very fortunate. You know, I knock wood on all of that. So yeah, I was making top dollar.

[20:40] Ethan Steimel: So I would not ask you a simple question that encompasses a lot here. How do you make a living? And or specifically, how have you made a living? You clearly started as a dancer, but then how have you, you know, changed that throughout to today where you're directing mostly?

[20:56] Jonathan Cerullo: They are all transferable skills, and I think it's very important to understand you can transferable skills. Because I asked that very same question when I got a phone call from a prominent director and choreographer, Patricia Birch, who, if your viewers aren't aware of who she is, her career is a 50, 60 year career. She's most noted for being the choreographer for Greece, the original production of Greece. And then she directed the film and the sequel to the film. Called me one day and she says, Hey, I hear you want to be a director and a choreographer. Well, I'm gonna take you out of the chorus because you're too good for the chorus. I've seen your work. I need an, I'm looking for an assistant.

That was it, Ethan. I hung up my toe shoes. I had one more show to do, one more contract to do. And after that contract, I hung up my toe shoes. I didn't want to perform again. I had done it, I'd done it on every level you can conceivably do it on. I was in the trenches with it. I was that dancer that went to the GM on opening night and handed in my notice, my two-week out because I had another show that was coming up at another theater that I was already at. I was so blessed with that. I never stopped working as a dancer. I was a guy, I was good looking, I had hair, I could sing, I could dance. And I could do these little specialty parts. So, but when Pat called me and says, I'm looking for an assistant, I switched gears like that.

I stayed her assistant for about 13 years, and those were experiences that I would never have gotten on my own. Film work, television work, international work, Canada, Europe, everything from major motion pictures to TV specials, more a couple more Broadway shows. I was always included in on her contract. So I was part of her negotiation and I was paid very handsomely. And I never ever worried about that, but I respected the fact that she took care of me and she took care of me very nicely. She had top of the line service afforded her as she should and I was part of that. So I was so grateful as I say, I have drunk from that goblet. I have sat at that table and eaten with that gold fork, gold spoon, whatever it is.

And then there comes a point in time where you say okay I've done enough assisting. I need to move forward. And I moved forward and that's when I started my production company which I think we'll talk about. I really just embraced a career as a director and choreographer. So how I make my living, I have made it in the entertainment industry plain and simple.

[23:39] Ethan Steimel: And how old were you when you switched from dancing to assistant directing and then again I guess 13 years from there transitioning to just directing on your own? There was a point in my life when I was giving myself the five-year cycle, you know, thing like five years I have to be doing this and five years I have to be doing that. Which is sort of I still think about that. Let me see I got my equity card right out of college so I was and I got my first Broadway show literally out of college.

[24:05] Jonathan Cerullo: So you know 21 to 31 was my dancing, you know 31 to 41 was working with Pat, 41 to 50 was sort of, you know, when I transitioned through all of that. I am grateful to be alive today.

[24:20] Jonathan Cerullo: I have not had any other career except that in the entertainment industry, whether it be on the business side or the performing side or the management side, that's all I've done.

[24:31] Ethan Steimel: You mentioned your production company.

[24:33] Jonathan Cerullo: So you created that when you went to direct on your own?

[24:36] Jonathan Cerullo: A little bit. So I looked up that information because she asked, when did you create that?

[24:41] Jonathan Cerullo: It was 2013 that I actually became a legitimate limited liability company and I filed papers with New York State.

[24:50] Jonathan Cerullo: But I was using JSC, I was using JSC productions prior to that as an ENI, which is basically like an independent contractor, which I still am an independent contractor, but I legitimately formed the company in 2013.

[25:06] Jonathan Cerullo: And I did that slightly prior to turning 50, actually. I had gotten to a point where I said there has to be more beyond 5678. There are numbers past that.

[25:28] Jonathan Cerullo: And you had to give them a business plan.

[25:31] Jonathan Cerullo: Well, I didn't know what the heck a business plan was. So the Actors Fund, which your audience should also know about, has programs which help artists understand that there's a world bigger than just what we do.

[25:47] Jonathan Cerullo: There are classes that they offer. There's, you know, how to build your resume other than acting resume, how to engage in other, you know, entrepreneurial components of your life. You just shouldn't sing, dance, and act. That you shouldn't just do that. You should form a company, you should become an entity and take it seriously in the world. And that's what I wanted to do. I wanted to be legitimized basically.

[26:16] Jonathan Cerullo: And the Actors Fund was holding a workshop called How to Create Your Production Company. And I thought, oh, let me, I want to apply to that. I did, and I was turned down.

[26:28] Jonathan Cerullo: Next year, same thing. How to create your production company. I applied and I was turned down.

[26:36] Jonathan Cerullo: So I said, wait a second now. I picked up the phone and I called the lady up and I said, This is the second time you have turned me down for this. Why?

[26:47] Jonathan Cerullo: Jonathan, you have too much experience. You're beyond this.

[26:53] Jonathan Cerullo: And I said, Mrs. So and so, I said, you know, the minute I stop learning, that's gonna be a really bad day. And there was silence on the other end of the phone. And she said, You're in. And that opened the door.

[27:15] Jonathan Cerullo: I learned about the Commercial Theater Institute through that. I learned about the New York Foundation for the Arts, which is an incredible organization, feeder resources unlimited, and several other organizations that help you understand that little word next to the word show. I wish I could coin the phrase, but Irving Berlin got to it before me, and that is business. This is a business, it's show business, it's not show art, it's not show pretty, it's show business.

[27:48] Jonathan Cerullo: And I knew show very well, Ethan. I knew it I could do it cold, but I didn't know business. So I made a concerted effort to basically stop what I was doing and learn the business of show business. And I was hungry and voracious, and I took every course I could possibly take, applied to everything, and I'm proud to say I'm a graduate of the Commercial Theater Institute's alumni specifically on how do you transition from being a dancer to being a business owner within the arts community.

[28:29] Ethan Steimel: Why did you create an LLC versus just working as an independent contractor?

[28:35] Jonathan Cerullo: So I do work as an independent contractor, and you can work as an independent contractor when you have an LLC. It depends upon the job I'm doing. If I'm hiring people to work for me, which I've had the opportunity to do, I don't want that individual to come back and say, oh, you know, I broke my finger and I'm gonna sue you, and I'm gonna take your apartment, I'm gonna take your summer home. I didn't want, I wanted to have a complete separation of the business from the personal. And so I didn't want those two to collide at all. So that's why I created a limited liability corporation company, LLC. So they have I have limited liability.

[29:21] Jonathan Cerullo: Whenever I go and do a work under my production company that I hire somebody or I hire a venue or lighting equipment or whatever it is, no one can come back to me and drain my bank account, you know, take my house, you know, take the car. They can't do that. So I did this specifically to separate the personal from the professional, period.

[29:48] Ethan Steimel: Okay, so you work as a director as an independent contractor, somebody can just hire you to come in and direct.

[29:54] Jonathan Cerullo: Right, because I'm a union member and I can actually hire myself through my company under an SDC contract. I can't sign my contract. So what did I do? I put my sister, that twin I spoke about, I put her as a president of the company. So she can sign checks, she can sign contracts, which is what I actually had did a few, you know, for a number of years. But I am still an independent contractor. I don't work for a corporation. You know, that's a different thing. I'm an employee. When a producer hires me, then I become an employee of that particular job. But the union has, you know, as they have a union, I sign a union contract, first and foremost. That that's a non-negotiable.

[30:47] Ethan Steimel: Give us an example of something that you've done with the JSC Theatricals LLC.

[30:53] Jonathan Cerullo: Last year, I produced a streaming online benefit for the Actors Fund and for Broadway Cares Equity Flights AIDS called With Love Now and Forever, Cats for COVID Relief. And I got together my company of cats, let's go back there for a second, to do a benefit for Broadway Cares. So what I did was I put this under JSC Theatricals, right? I had a contract with the stage directors of choreographers union, the remote media contract. I paid myself zero dollars, okay, because it was a benefit, zero dollars. However, I did, I think it's five bucks, give five bucks to my pension and welfare, right? Maybe it was ten bucks, whatever it is. It was a nominal fee. But I had my sister sign the contract because she was a president of the company, and she could then write me a check, which I just in turn wrote back to the union. So that's one configuration of what I have done.

[32:06] Jonathan Cerullo: So how the, you know, Cal Hollywood's been doing this for decades. The theater artists don't really have this acumen built into their learning, into their business psyche. But you have, you know, Reese Witherspoon has her own production company. She produces her own work and she hires herself to do that work. And it's a simple, you know, not so simple sometimes, but it's a way of the way.

[32:38] Ethan Steimel: Well, yeah, for designers, you know, designers will hire assistants, and some people just hire the assistants, pay them as an independent contractor. And I guess in this situation, we would say they're not protected from liability doing it that way. And then there's other designers who say they have a design studio, which the work doesn't change, but they have an LLC set up and they pay people through the LLC, and I guess in that sense they're protected.

[33:05] Jonathan Cerullo: I want to say like deductions and itemizations for taxes don't really change because you can still itemize as an independent contractor as you can with the LLC. I don't know that there's any tax benefits at all to opening the LLC. I think it's just protection.

[33:19] Jonathan Cerullo: It's protection, you know. And as you build your portfolio up, I have a Roth IRA account, I have several other accounts, inheritance, and this kind of thing that I don't want anybody to touch. That's why I separate from the personal from the professional. You have to look at yourself as a business. Show business. So set yourself up as a business and work through that business when you do your work. Period. Hire assistants. That's all I do is hire assistants. And as you well know, because we've worked together, I pay everyone.

[33:57] Jonathan Cerullo: I volunteer for one organization, Broadway Cares. And that's why I said I paid myself zero dollars. My sister was like when she saw this zero, she goes, who pays themselves nothing? I said, Lori Ann, I do because it's a benefit. So we're not making any money on this. But I hire assistants all the time. Like Pat Perch tied me into her contracts. I tie I now have the fortune to tie assistants into my contracts. If I make X number of dollars, they get a percentage of that. But of course, then I pop that percentage up to the producer to say, you know, pay on top of this for an assistant. That's just the way it is. So everybody gets paid.

[34:44] Jonathan Cerullo: You know, Ethan, we've been looking for a project to do and we will find it. Yeah, we're gonna get another one. The last one we did was The Boys from Syracuse at Theater Row. But I'm bringing it up because Josh Warner was our set designer. He is a patron of Artistic Finance. Josh Warner, talented guy, wonderful designer. I would work with him in a snap of a finger. But one of the great things about that is I, as I hope you know, I am painfully loyal. When I assemble a team, that team, I stick with them, and they thankfully stick with me. So something in that machine must be working. And Josh, when I saw that he went to Emerson College, I went, I want to talk to him. There's an allegiance that I have because I got a good education, so I want to see whether and Emerson did a whole thing on us, you know, two generations meet and blah blah blah. So it was a great collaboration all the time. Great experience, great show. I hope to see it again one day, and or get it up on its feet again one day.

[36:21] Patrick Oliver Jones: With a monthly subscription to Why I'll Never Make It through Supercast, you'll get access to bonus episodes and extra content that you can't find anywhere else.

[36:31] Patrick Oliver Jones: And in this week's bonus episodes, Ethan and I talk about our takeaways from this particular interview with Jonathan, as well as our own thoughts about finance and the business side of performing arts.

[36:43] Patrick Oliver Jones: So you are certainly welcome to help this podcast with a donation through PayPal. But if you'd like access to bonus episodes like these, then please consider a monthly subscription by going to why I'll never make it.com or just click on the link in the show notes.

[37:05] Patrick Oliver Jones: Now, back to Ethan's interview with Jonathan Cerullo as they talk about connecting with an audience and fellow colleagues in other ways besides just on stage.

[37:15] Ethan Steimel: I want to talk about email lists. You'll see advice that says no matter what your business is, no matter what you do, you need an email list because that's one way that you can directly connect with people. You know, it's not social media, it's not a website, it's a way that you can connect with no third party, you know, other than your email server. So that being said, I know that I should have an email list, and I know that Artistic Finance should have an email list, but you do have one. Why did you start it?

[37:41] Jonathan Cerullo: Um, and it could because it comes out, I'm gonna say twice a year, and it's sort of an update on JSC theatricals.

[37:50] Jonathan Cerullo: Yeah, yeah, you're you're you're right about that. And and you know, I another Broadway play I I did, musicale I did, um, the producer Randall Riggard, who was just a gentleman of the theater, and we unfortunately lost Randall. He was the one who actually said to me, because I was the assistant director on on Band in Berlin, it was called. He says, you know, you you director guys, you know, you you you you gotta get like in in in in in touch with like the internet and and uh you know the the the online media and all of this. This was before Twitter and Instagram and all these other social media platforms. This was just strictly a newsletter, an email, a an announcement of something that you were doing. So I said, Randall, you're you're right. How do I do that? He goes, start a database. Make sure you have an accurate database and you continually update it. But one thing you must do is ask permission.

[38:47] Jonathan Cerullo: I said, Oh, what do you mean ask for who do I ask permission for? The internet? He goes, No, of the person you're asking to be put on that newsletter. So I've made it a practice, more often than not, say, hey, I would like to, would you be okay for me to put you on my email list? I I'm not a commercial entity. I you know, I I don't have a product to sell. I got a show that you I want you to come and see, but I'm not selling uh, you know, a bottle of uh, you know, dishwasher detergent. Every company that I go into, I ask, you know, permission, hey, listen, can I can I can I move you into my email list? You will always have the option to opt out of it, but I've made the I've respectfully asked that person, can I do this? And more often than not, they're like, absolutely, I'd love to. And then you start to engage in it in your community.

[39:36] Jonathan Cerullo: I curate my email list and I update it and I make sure that it's accurate. Um I do it every six months, actually. Um, it's been a little less than that this these past two years, but when I put an email, when I put a newsletter out, and you're right, I don't bombard people with it. I do it very carefully and judiciously. Um, I may push it out a little bit more when I'm actually fundraising for a show. A project that I did uh called Windy Woo and Her Naughty Naughty Pets. I I actually raised the capital for it. So I did a little bit more of an aggressive um uh newsletter campaign on that, but everything was carefully modulated, it was carefully placed. The email was specific to a time and a time of day, a specific objective.

[40:25] Jonathan Cerullo: And that email list, right now it I, you know, it's it I I have this is it's nothing compared to some, but it's like, you know, over 3,000 emails that I actually have, you know, respectfully collect gotten, but that's all been connected or it has become connected now to other social media outlets such as Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. But the newsletter, the newsletter is where it's when you say connected to, does that mean you write it and it at the same time it email emails out, it goes to the social media, or that you just repurpose the content from the newsletter and go put it onto the social media?

[41:03] Jonathan Cerullo: It's it's all connected. It's all everything is connected to everything else. So when I post my newsletter, I'm able to post it on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. So those are the three platforms that I use. I am not on TikTok.

[41:17] Ethan Steimel: Plenty of fish, you're not on Plenty of Fish.

[41:20] Jonathan Cerullo: Yeah, I can't. I'm not on Plenty of Fish or GoFish or I I I those are the only three that I that I think nuts and bolts of this. What software do you use, or what program do you use to create the newsletter?

[41:34] Jonathan Cerullo: Well, the the newsletter, and I and I'm glad you asked that because I wrote it down. It is your mailing list provider. So what I did was I did a cost survey analysis of what newsletter uh programs were like. Uh there's of course constant contact. MailChimp. MailChimp, exactly. And I found that for where I was, for my budget, for what I needed because I wasn't putting content out every week or every month or every day. I wanted the lowest common denominator uh financially to secure uh this. And so uh it's a program that's out of uh Europe, actually, but I'm able to create a newsletter from a template that I you know redesigned and repurposed for myself and for my branding because I wanted a very specific brand, and I made a logo and so I use Gmail, Google Mail, my contact list, okay, and everything starts there, and then I'm able to through export that into a database.

[42:39] Jonathan Cerullo: So once you learn how to you know use an Excel spreadsheet, it all figures into each other very nicely. You asked about you know the email. You I'm sure you've heard of the Sophie Tucker, the the shantous of the 20s and 30s and 40s. Well, there's a phenomenal documentary about her. And in the documentary, it validated what I was doing. When she toured the country, she they found all of these huge books. She would write in that book the names of everyone she came in contact with, their telephone number, their address, the position that they held at the theater. Because when she toured the country doing her show over 40 years, she knew Johnny, the bellman at the So and So Hotel. His wife's name is Carla. Their anniversaries. So she engaged with a client and she says, that means one thing, money. And she was building up her spreadsheet.

[43:43] Jonathan Cerullo: So when she would go into a town, she would write them at Johnny. I'm coming into town. I hope to see you at the show. That was a ticket. That was a sale for her. Then she would send them, come into a flowers or thank you for coming. So there was a reciprocity of her fan base that she built up over time, but she made careful notes. And I thought, this is genius. This is brilliant. I'm doing the same thing. I'm building up when I want to invite somebody. I go, okay. Oh, so Ethan came to this workshop I did, and he likes this kind of show. So I'm gonna invite him to this because I think he might like this. So you curate your database as you move through time when you're asking for money to fund a show.

This comes in very handy. Not only because A, you've built a relationship with them, they trust you. They want to see you succeed. They have the money to spend. The pitches make a contribution to the arts and humanities. It is an essential service as far as I'm concerned. What we do is an essential service. Because without the arts, we are nothing.

[44:51] Jonathan Cerullo: We are nothing without the arts. Because I just don't mean creative arts, but you know, a mathematician, that's an art, a scientist, that's an art. We are nothing without art, you know? That separates us from the animal from from the world.

[45:06] Ethan Steimel: Well, does it though? Because you're in the arts and you're also a cat. So I don't know how much separation there is.

[45:13] Jonathan Cerullo: Very good. You must be a writer, too. Is that what you're doing? Okay, so I I Business Insider is one of those news sources that I that comes across my feed all the time. So there was an article they did recently called When COVID-19 shut Broadway Down, Digital Theater Filled the Gap, and many think it's here to stay. Now that headline does not strike me, however, I clicked on it. And you are in the article talking about a Zoom production that you did. Can you just briefly tell us about what you were talking about there?

[45:43] Jonathan Cerullo: Absolutely. I'd been working on a on a play, and uh the opportunity came um at the end of last year to engage in um an online presentation of this play at the blank theater in Los Angeles. Now the blank theater is a very well recognized, it's like their Playwrights Horizons um uh of Los Angeles. Uh it it actually is on what's called their theater row, from what I understand. So I said to the playwright who asked me to do it, I says, Oh, well, uh we're in the height of COVID. What you know what am I to go to Los Angeles? Um what what's happening here? He says, No, it's all gonna be done online. I said, I'm gonna be up front because that's who I am. I this is new territory for me, but bring it on. I'm interested in learning. Long story short, there was a system called uh um uh OBS, uh which is the open broadcast system. Basically, you're you're a f you're your own film production company.

[46:45] Jonathan Cerullo: The wonderful producer Brie Parvey is her name, said, Hey, I'll walk you through this, we'll we'll we'll figure this out. But it you are actually making a small film of your play. Uh once I understood this, I said, Oh my god, no one will ever do a Zoom reading at or nor should they ever again, because when you have this this uh software, which is free, by the way, you will never look at doing an online streaming program if you don't have the capabilities of doing an in-house filming of your production like they did with Diana, or you've got you know Netflix behind you. But if you're if you're doing this in in this raw format that that was very affordable, it's the way to go. I storyboarded the whole show.

Uh there was camera angles, there was graphics involved with it, there was movement of of the of the images. You're still dealing in in a square frame with that actor because they are stationary in their home, wherever their location may be. I was in New York, one actor was in Los Angeles, the playwright was in Sacramento, and another actor was in Hawaii. So I had like four time zones, I three time zones I had a deal with, but we got it done. We rehearsed on Zoom, I'll say that. But then we switched over to this system called OBS, open broadcast system. We had a camera rehearsal, we had a full day of shooting, we had a day of pickups, and then it was edited, music was put underneath it, and when the thing, when you know, when when we saw the rough cut, uh, you know, there were changes that we could make to it, but it was brilliant.

[48:21] Jonathan Cerullo: And I said, this is not going anywhere.

[48:25] Jonathan Cerullo: And now, of course, we've gone one step beyond that, and SAG Aftra has this mini contract. Are you familiar with this?

[48:33] Jonathan Cerullo: I have not worked under it yet, but this videographer that I've worked with, Matt Gurren, told me about this.

[48:40] Jonathan Cerullo: So Matt, Matt is a brilliant artist. I worship the ground he walks on. He's a terrific guy, ridiculously talented man. I hadn't seen him in, you know, these two years, and I went to the theater the other day because, you know, I'm an artistic associate for the Amos Musical Theater. I don't know if your audience knows that, but I'm a proud, proud artistic associate. There's only four of us there. He's their go-to videographer. He was there, and I was like, Hey, how are you doing? And he said, I said, What have you been up to? He goes, Well, we just filmed Rio. What's it called? Rio Rio Uphill. I said, What do you mean, filmed it? He goes, Oh, yeah, we just did it on the SAG Aftra mini contract.

I was like, what? So immediately I got home and I went online and I've downloaded all the information. I'm now discussing this with a project that I'm working on. It allows you to film your show for a multi, multi-peer range of opportunities with it. It's the way that this is gonna happen. It's the way that the world, and it should be this way. You've got to be able to combine this format, which has been around. We're actually talking through it right now. It's not going anywhere. So equity, SDC, we all need to come to the table and shake hands on it. And they are.

[50:01] Jonathan Cerullo: So let me give your listeners the exact name of this particular contract. It's called a micro budget agreement. And you can find all of the paperwork on that in the SAG Aftra. It's called micro budget agreement. Boy, when I came across this, and I thanked Matt for it, I was like, oh boy, this is the way to go. I am such a visual human being. I'm a photographer as well. And you know, if theater were to collapse tomorrow, I still have this wonderful instrument which I can hold at the end of my hand and seriously be happy in life.

[50:39] Jonathan Cerullo: What financial advice or career advice would you give to somebody who's starting right now? Think of yourself as a business entity. You're your own calling card. If they haven't been told that, they need to hear that. But as far as your financial, the first thing I was told is make a budget and stick to it. Make a budget. You spend X number of dollars on laundry, X number of dollars on headshots, X number of dollars on classes, make a budget and keep within that budget so that you are never going what? Over budget. And know what your intake is and what your outtake is and be organized with that. There are so many tax benefits that you can have when you take your clothes to the laundry, those are audition clothes. They can that's a tax deduction. So be talk to your accountant as to how you successfully handle all of the deductions that you can take.

[51:31] Jonathan Cerullo: I work out of my home. I can take a percentage of my rent off of my taxes. So, and that's another reason why I built a, you know, a business. Absolutely make a budget. Learn how to do an Excel spreadsheet. I didn't, I learned, and now I live by them. And as a dancer, you have transferable skills. What's the first thing they teach you in dance? Be on time. That's a transferable skill through life. Know the text. Know when you walk into the room, you're gonna do center, you're gonna do bar work, you're gonna do across the floor. Know it. Come into the room with a head full of ideas. That's the only way you're gonna be able to work, is if you come into that room and you have ideas. Those are all transferable skills that you can use as you march forward in life.

[52:16] Jonathan Cerullo: And of course, you know, there are I will mention this book through the New York Foundation for the Arts. It's called The Profitable Artistic. It's the Bible. Absolutely get it. It explains everything that you need to know. How to incorporate, what do you trademark? How do you license? How do you copyright? You know, your work, everything that comes out of your mouth, that's intellectual property. You know, if you put that down on a piece of paper, as a dancer, you have an idea for a ballet, and you put that down on a piece of paper and you write that up. That is a tangible means of expression. That is a copyrightable piece of document that you can then put through the United States copyright office and you have the copyright on that.

[52:59] Jonathan Cerullo: Think of yourself as a business and The Profitable Artistic, New York Foundation for the Arts, it's a Bible, I tell you. The Commercial Theatre Institute is another great organization that you should you're listening to. I don't know. I'm sure no I don't know if we've mentioned it actually.

[53:15] Jonathan Cerullo: Well then you should it the commercial CTIs it's called um and there's a gambit of you know various things that you can get from them is you know The Profitable Artistic is that like a book book by an author or it's oh okay a total book oh it's a consortium of authors it's all different people and they just they just um I have it somewhere over here uh they just um I do say like an update a new addition to it they republished it so it's really incredible and and you know start to read contracts start to figure out you know budget that's where it starts numbers don't lie they just don't lie and you can't make them lie actually I mean you can you can but there's a little thing called um it's funny that you say numbers don't lie because that's what I was thinking when you were saying a budget make a budget because we had another Italian American on this Lisa Penicia that's her favorite saying is the numbers don't lie.

[53:15] Jonathan Cerullo: That's I the reason I was afraid of numbers now I'll tell you I learned that I would severely dyslexic. There's many, many forms of dyslexia, but I have the most common, which is alpha and numeric dyslexia. Not only do I switch numbers like an eight and a nine or a six and a nine or just flip numbers, you know, in a sequence, I can't add in my head. That that's I just can't add in my head. And I had a lot of problems with fractions and decibel points, and don't ask me to do a percentage because I just I don't have no idea. Numeric dyslexia is also the same thing where you switch numbers and letters.

[54:45] Jonathan Cerullo: So one thing I was gonna say about your newsletters. For God's sake, make sure it is accurate to the decimal point and to the period and to the comma. Because once it gets sent out there, it looks really bad to say, oops, sorry, which I've had to do. I spelled the name wrong, a link doesn't work. Test it before you put it out there. That's an imprint that then you can't pull it back because it's out there.

[55:14] Jonathan Cerullo: Okay, so I don't have a newsletter, but I do post Patreon only content for my 22 patrons. Thank you, patrons. Every time I generate content, it sends an email. So in a way, that's a newsletter. And I didn't even know that until a couple people said, Oh, yeah, I'm always getting your emails. I like your emails. And then I realized, oh, I'm sending them a newsletter every single time I post.

[55:39] Jonathan Cerullo: But that's engaging, it's engaging in your audience. So now that you know that, you have the ability to curate that and respect it, you know, and embrace it because I don't know how else in our profession we're able to get that out there. You know, you gotta put the butts in the seats, as they say in the business. We are in a highly visible entity.

[56:04] Jonathan Cerullo: Well, I was gonna say about your making a mistake with the newsletter. When I send out the newsletter for Patreon, I can go back to the original post and make changes, and then there's an option that says, do not update people about this correction.

[56:18] Jonathan Cerullo: I sort of have another big sort of global rule I think about, and this may be maybe interesting for your listeners, but always answer the five W's. Who, what, where, when, and why? And if you have that as your foundation, who are you? What do you want to say? When do you want to say it? Where do you want to say it? And most importantly, why? Answer those five questions for yourself. I do this on every show I do. Who, what, where, when, and why? But you've got to be able to understand those simple basic questions, and then you can build up.

[56:57] Jonathan Cerullo: Listen, I didn't fall off the Christmas tree yesterday. I'm grateful to have, you know, done been doing what I'm doing. I have an incredible, wonderful, you know, pool of great artists in this town and in Los Angeles a bit. When I would go to the theater, I would invariably run into someone I know, you know, and that's the community that is sacred to me.

[57:22] Jonathan Cerullo: You ask how you deal with on this online social media, you know, it's a slippery slope. I have one thing to say that my mom taught us. It's very simple, and it's what you learned in kindergarten. Be careful crossing the street, hold each other's hands, and look both ways. That's all. Be nice, be nice.

[57:42] Jonathan Cerullo: I feel a lot of times, you know, this whole thing is opened up to your comment. Well, if I don't know you, why would you open yourself up to that comment? The filter has been shut off, and there is no filter anymore. And we've given this outlet for this demonstrative behavior. I don't engage in it at all. Be careful how you modulate it and set your boundaries. As you cross the street and look both ways and be nice. And you can turn somebody around like that.

[58:21] Jonathan Cerullo: I got on the bus the other day and my phone app, the Wi-Fi, it didn't show my ticket. The bus driver got enraged. He got angry. Don't even and I just I said, be nice. Please be nice. We'll figure this out. Let me step aside so that the other customer, and I did. And I showed it to him. And as I got off the bus, he turned around and said, I'm sorry. I said, no problems, no worries, no worries. Have a good day. But if I had engaged in a confrontation with this man, it would have gone just nowhere. But as it turned out, this guy who I didn't and I'll probably never see again, apologize. That's what I mean. Be nice, look both ways before you cross the street and hold hands. I held the guy's hand. I said, be nice. You know, so here you have it.

[59:13] Ethan Steimel: All right. Well, Jonathan, I absolutely loved this chat. I can't thank you enough for taking the time and just sharing all this with us.

[59:20] Jonathan Cerullo: You are so welcome, Ethan.

[59:22] Ethan Steimel: That was our interview with Jonathan Cerullo.

[59:29] Ethan Steimel: Thank you for listening to Artistic Finance. Make sure to subscribe. To access our show notes, transcripts, or resources, go to Artisticfinance.com.

[59:38] Ethan Steimel: This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any decision, consult a professional.

[59:41] Ethan Steimel: This show is copyrighted by Artistic Finance. Written permission must be granted before syndication or rebroadcasting.

[59:55] Ethan Steimel: CFOs and controllers, there's a better way to manage cards, expenses, travel, and reimbursements. You need a unified spend platform from BREX that lets you control all your spend in one place, automate compliance, and close the books faster.

[1:00:08] Ethan Steimel: Get started at BREX.com.