This is an auto-generated transcript and may contain typos and other grammatical errors.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

As actors and singers, we are not only students of our own craft, but also of the industry itself. It's not just enough to perform in shows, it's just as important to see them as well. And I've been fortunate enough to see hundreds of shows during my 18 years here in New York City. Thanks to discount programs like the Theatre Development Fund. And many of the guests on this podcast, I have either seen on stage or performed alongside them, or sometimes both. And there is one actress who I saw in 3 different Broadway productions before finally meeting her and sharing the stage in 2022 in a production of 42nd Street. And in the following year, Lisa Howard sat down with me to reminisce about our time together doing that show. She is so spirited and cheerful, and that's reason enough to love this conversation. But what made it so memorable is how she pulls the curtain way back and reveals the trials and tribulations of putting a new show together, some more successfully than others.

Lisa Howard:

It's always hard doing a new show because it's always changing. You know, you've got 4 new joke lines. And a set of new lyrics, and you gotta do 'em that night. You know, it's— for me, it's much easier to put in a new line than it is to put in a new lyric. If I get a new lyric, my brain wants to explode.

POJ:

Lisa began her Broadway career almost 20 years ago with a little show with a big name, the 25th Annual Putnam County Spelling Bee. Since then, she's gone on to originate roles in 3 other Broadway shows, and we'll be talking about 2 of them in this episode. The first is Dolly Parton's 9 to 5, which she calls one of the roughest rehearsal periods she's ever gone through, followed up by Escape to Margaritaville, a fun show for the cast that didn't find as much fun here in New York City. And we end with a discussion of a topic that she says comes up in every interview, but for this podcast, she she wanted to talk about it on her own terms rather than it being something someone else found brave or unusual. Welcome to Why I'll Never Make It, an award-winning theater podcast about the realities of a career in the arts. I'm your host, POJ, a Broadway actor here in New York City. And as we head into the 10th season of this podcast, I wanted to take a moment to look back at 10 guests who have been so meaningful over the years. Their stories, honesty, and lessons are still just as relevant today, reminding us of what it really takes to keep creating, performing, and showing up in this business.

POJ:

Welcome, Howard. You're already laughing. You're already laughing at me.

Howard:

I know.

POJ:

It's so good to see you. It's so good to have you on my podcast. I thank you for being here.

Howard:

My pleasure.

POJ:

Now, you and I, we just got through— this was a few months ago— we just got through with 42nd Street. And I mean, we, we had a blast. And now we never actually got to share the stage together. We were never really in a scene

Howard:

I don't think so. We crossed like ships in the night.

POJ:

Yes, yes.

Howard:

Backstage.

POJ:

Well, in fact, there was one time when, as you were making your entrance, I had to leave.

Howard:

Yeah.

POJ:

So that was— so that was pretty

Howard:

much— Yeah, that was it. No, I really, I really do think you— 'cause you weren't in the group numbers.

POJ:

No.

Howard:

Your character. No.

POJ:

Yeah. But I mean, you had an absolute blast with that. I mean, you have a fun character with Maggie, who's just this no-nonsense, fun-loving gal. So— Righten

Howard:

shows.

POJ:

Right? It seems to fit your personality, that kind of character.

Howard:

And I think because Randy took the show in a more— I want to say more grounded, real place, I definitely feel like that's a little more me. I mean, I can be the big waka waka out to the audience, you know? And there was a little bit of that just written into the character. But I really liked just playing her as, as a real person, just kind of having that— freedom to be natural and not have to feel the pressure of, like, being sticky, you know? But, but I think it totally worked too, because a lot of productions of 42nd Street are very, you know, over the top in that way.

POJ:

Yeah, it's that show within the show. And so most people focus on the show part, you know, and just try to give that razzle dazzle jazz hands to everything.

Howard:

But really, the show part, we only had that one little quick thing. Most of my stuff was Maggie outside the show.

POJ:

Exactly.

Howard:

Yeah.

POJ:

Now, 42nd Street, at least our production, it has a possible future potential where it's going to go. We don't know. Have you been in a lot of shows that kind of had that uncertain future?

Howard:

Sure, most definitely, starting with Spelling Bee. First I did it as a workshop for no sense up in the Berkshires, and it was just you know, you had to do it because I was like, oh, this is a new William Finn piece. Yeah, of course. You know, but who knows? And then we ended up going to Second Stage literally just months later for like a, a very small production in the cafeteria at the school. And then we went right to Off-Broadway and then we went right to Broadway. So it was like crazy fast, but none of us knew it was coming each time. So it was, it was great.

POJ:

You know, the producer of 42nd Street, he was definitely in touch with us saying, hey, I'm trying to do this. Was that made aware to you during Spelling Bee?

Howard:

Um, they would come to us and say, you know, like middle of the run, oh, hey, we're going here. You know, great, there's going to be a production. And then, you know, middle of the run, they told us we were then going to Off-Broadway. And then we found out we were going to Broadway, you know. But it was very fast each time. It was— you know, it wasn't waiting around at all.

POJ:

But, but from the very beginning, it was never really known what its future was going to be, really.

Howard:

No. Like, literally, from the winter of 2004, when there was just an outline of a sketch from, from an improv show that some of the cast had done, to Bill Finn writing songs, where they're literally workshopping it, to the next year rehearsing for Broadway.

POJ:

Mm. Wow.

Howard:

All those steps in between. Yeah, it was crazy. Like, it never— you know, it never happens like that.

POJ:

Well, through that entire rehearsal process, did it have that kind of improv feel, as you said? Did it continue to shape and mold itself?

Howard:

Totally. Oh, yeah. Totally. Especially more like, we, we'd be in the workshop and we would do something in rehearsal, and the next day it's in the script. You know? And a lot of what I had to do was come up with stuff for the guest spellers. And so we would try out new ones in the room, and, you know, they kept getting more and more ridiculous. 'Cause, you know, in a rehearsal room, you're trying to make the people in the room laugh. And so it just got more and more ridiculous.

Howard:

And then we had some young students who were like intern writers too, and they would give us stuff, and we would try it, and sometimes they bombed it, you know. But— and we, we, we would do that during the whole run. Really try out new things. Even if we, like, looked over at a Speller and they had some crazy shirt on, we'd be sitting there when the lights were low on us trying to come up with something new to say about that particular person, you know? So sometimes they were only one-offs and we never used it again, or— and it either killed, or sometimes it'd be like silence, and I'd be like— and that was the kids on the bench. That was when they would laugh the hardest on the— they'd be like, when we would do it and it would just bomb, and they'd be like [LAUGHING]

Audio from 2005 Tony Awards:

Howard:

We are still missing a speller. Would Mr. Al Sharpton please join us on stage? Thank you, take your seat.

POJ:

This is the cast of Spelling Bee performing at the 2005 Tony Awards with Lisa as Rona, Jay Reese as the vice principal, and special guest speller, the Reverend Al Sharpton. Mr. Sharpton.

Howard:

This fall, Mr. Sharpton will run for class president on a platform of racial equality and macaroni and cheese.

Jay Reiss:

Your word is dengue. Dengue.

Rev. Al Sharpton:

Could you give me the definition, please?

Reiss:

It's an infectious disease transmitted by mosquitoes and characterized by headache, joint pain, skin rash, and severe diarrhea.

Sharpton:

Could you use it in a sentence, please?

Reiss:

When the pediatrician asked Billy to describe the symptoms of his dengue, he said, "It's like there was a race out of my tushy and everybody won."

POJ:

That has to be so fun to have a show with that much freedom and spontaneity and newness every performance.

Howard:

Oh, yeah. And it was a— one act. There was no intermission. It was like a 90-minute show, start to finish. Boom, you got it. Every show was different. You know, like, it was great.

POJ:

Now, with that being your very first Broadway show, the— I mean, it sounds like I've never been on Broadway, but it sounds like that that's a very different kind of experience for a Broadway show.

Howard:

Oh, I think so. A lot of times, you know, it's in development and working for, you know, sometimes 10 years or something before something actually hits the stage, let alone gets a Broadway run. Or, you know, it just This one was very unique in that way, and that it was such a huge hit. You know, we won the Tony for Best Book. Uh, Dan Fogler won for Best Actor. Like, it was— it was awesome.

POJ:

Well, that leads us into the first story that you wanted to talk about, which deals with 9 to 5, another show that had its own pre-Broadway run. You know, where is it going to go? How's it going to get there? And you say that that rehearsal process for 9 to 5 was actually the most difficult of any show that you've ever done. And you say that the creatives were constantly disagreeing, and you would scrap a whole day's work, you would start over. Now, this is a musical based upon a popular movie, and so it had a script, it had a story. What exactly was being worked on or had to be figured out?

Howard:

I mean, we were working with amazing people. Joe Mantello directed, Andy Blankenbuehler was the choreographer. We had amazing people in the show, but I think maybe it was s— stylistically-wise, uh, no one really knew. But we would do— learn— take all day and learn a whole big group number. Andy would choreograph and everything. And then at the end of the day, Joe would come in and he'd be like, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. And then it was scrapped. And then we would literally start over.

Howard:

And Anne Hirata was in this. And on numerous occasions she was like, I'm done. I'm quitting. I'm quitting. Like, she was about to quit so many times. Wow. Because it was just so frustrating for everyone. So like, I just think they just weren't agreeing on how it should look and how it should go, you know? And I mean, obviously eventually they did, but it was, it was a constant do and redo.

POJ:

Which sounds like a workshop really.

Howard:

But it was during the rehearsal process.

POJ:

That's what I'm saying.

Howard:

When we were in, um, It was that way when we were rehearsing for being at the Ahmanson, which was our out-of-town run. I mean, during tech, they're doing lights, we're in the lobby changing stuff. Rehearsing in the lobby. There was one time when they couldn't agree on this one number. And so we had a show, couldn't do it. We went out, stood still and sang. Wha— wait, wait. Eggy, eggy.

Howard:

Oh my God, because they couldn't— we didn't know what to do.

POJ:

Wait, wait, so during, during the show this happened?

Howard:

So you just like— Yes, previews.

POJ:

Oh my gosh.

Howard:

Stood out there and sang and then left.

POJ:

That is crazy. It's like instead of doing something, do nothing, stand there, sing, and get off the stage.

Howard:

Uh-huh. For that particular number. Wow. Yeah, it was, it was challenging. I mean, we were having fun while we were doing it, but like, Eventually, we— everyone was, oh my god, you know? So finally come to Broadway, we, you know, more changes, more changes. We doing it. Then there was trouble with the— I think the lighting designers, they weren't liking what they were doing. They ended up hiring a new set of lighting designers.

Howard:

The, the LED screen in the back, that was a problem and way over budget.

POJ:

Well, yeah, 'cause this was at a time where that wasn't as common as it is now.

Howard:

Oh, it was like one of the first. And we were all like, you know, this is cool. But it was, you know, expensive. So I think there were a lot of hurdles in that way. You know, the set itself had this big ginormous hole in the middle of the stage that the desks would come up. You know, we had an accident during tech. Mark Kudisch thought the crash pad was there, jumped. It wasn't.

Howard:

I mean, he could have killed himself. He didn't, but, you know, and Mark was like, well, I didn't die because I know how to fall. I mean, so, you know, I mean, I mean, it's true. He rolled and lived, but he was all bruised. I mean, it was a lot. Yeah. But once the show was finally up, it was really fun. It was a great show, you know.

POJ:

Did that only start on Broadway or did you start to have fun even out of town?

Howard:

Oh, we had fun out of town too, except for the one number where

POJ:

we were like, Standing there. Hello. Yes. Now, I read in interviews that Dolly Parton— obviously, this was her first musical. And so she was kind of trying her hand at this. But at the same time, she said it was a wonderful experience for her.

Dolly Parton (from a TheatreMania Interview):

So when you write for musicals, you've got a little more freedom to write basically what you think the character's feeling and knowing. And however that turns out, it can be longer, it can be shorter. So it actually got to be fun. And I had fun just being all the different characters.

POJ:

Was she a part of that day-to-day rehearsal process?

Howard:

She wasn't there every day, but she was there a lot. And I don't want to paint such a negative picture. It was fun. I mean, and we were working with Dolly Parton. Like, it was— it was great, you know? But comparing rehearsal processes, this process was the most difficult. You know, during tech, She would make us fudge and hand it— and give us all homemade fudge. And she would be backstage as we would come off. You go to your gondola, you change into your robe, and you go up to your dressing room.

Howard:

And she'd be there giving everybody high fives. Great job! You know? I mean, I was like, it's Dolly Parton.

POJ:

Oh my gosh, how fun that must have been.

Howard:

Yeah, so it was great. And 9 to 5 is a movie that everybody knew. You know, like, it's fun. We had Allison Janney, Stephanie Bloch, Megan Hilty, Marc Kudisch. I mean, that's a fantastic cast.

POJ:

Now, each of those people, they're known for their voices, strong voices, except probably Allison Janney. You know, she's from the TV world. So was that taken into consideration as they doled out songs and duets and working those numbers?

Howard:

I don't think any of the songs she had to sing were— exceptionally difficult. No, like the big power ballad, of course, that went to Stephanie Bloch. And, um, you know, Megan had some really sweet songs, but Alston had her fair share of songs, but they weren't terribly rangy or anything like that, you know. And, and I think, you know, for being an— not really a singer, I think she did— I think she did a great job.

POJ:

With this particular production, since you were in the ensemble and there's obviously these big stars up front, was there that distinction, or did it really feel like an ensemble, everyone working together?

Howard:

If I recall, I, I never felt, you know, I was in the lowly group or anything. It was definitely a working together. Like, I play— I was in the ensemble, and I played Missy Hart, the boss's wife, you know, just a little bit part. So I had scenes with them. There was never that atmosphere of us/them, which some— I know I've heard some shows can be like that. But no, I don't, I don't remember ever feeling like that.

POJ:

Because by this point, you'd done Spelling Bee, you'd done South Pacific. In fact, you left South Pacific to come do 9 to 5, right?

Howard:

Mm-hmm.

POJ:

Was it a different process being— for 9 to 5 being in ensemble again, whereas in Spelling Bee you felt like you were a bit more part of things?

Howard:

Yeah, honestly, I was— you know, you always think, oh, in my first Broadway show, I'm, I'm gonna be in the ensemble. I'll be second treat from the left or whatever. You know, having— made my Broadway debut in a principal part. That was amazing. Um, and then going into South Pacific at Lincoln Center, it was such a prestigious production to be a part of. It wasn't like, well, uh, now I can never do ensemble because I've been a lead, you know? Because that's a thing. Once you get a certain number of credits, like, you can't go back. But I wasn't at that place yet.

Howard:

It was my first— Broadway debut. So— because I was the head nurse in South Pacific, and that's definitely an ensemble part. But, you know, it was such a prestigious show and, you know, work— get to work at Lincoln Center and work with Bart Sher. And, you know, it was fine. And then moving from that ensemble to the next ensemble, you know, it did— it just made sense. It was a parallel move. It wasn't necessarily stepping backwards, you know.

POJ:

What led to your decision to choose 9 to 5 over staying with South Pacific?

Howard:

For one, I wanted to work with Dolly Parton cuz that's cool. And two, when I was in South Pacific, when I was originally cast, I thought that my role was simply head nurse. That was my ensemble track and that was great. Two weeks into rehearsal, stage management comes up to me and they're like, oh, and by the way, um, you're gonna be covering Bloody Mary. I laughed. I thought he was joking. And he was like, no, I'm, I'm serious. And I was like, doo doo doo doo doo, agent, what's it worth? I'm— I had to cover Bloody Mary, and I didn't want to go on.

Howard:

Hmm.

POJ:

Yeah.

Howard:

Because this doesn't scream Bloody Mary. I was like, I had to have dialect coaching. I was like, I'm going to offend. Someone.

POJ:

I mean, now it wasn't as woke a period as it is now, but

Howard:

even back then— No, but even then,

POJ:

I was like— I was still like, wait a minute, that's not quite right.

Howard:

Not quite right. Yeah. And this was, you know, back in 2008. And I was like, ah, I don't want to do this. You know, I had rehearsals. I was ready if need be, if the time had come.

POJ:

And the person— Did you ever go on?

Howard:

Nope. The person who replaced me Liz McCartney, she looks just like me. She had to go on. Now, thank goodness, I was a second cover. Thank goodness. No, I was like, oh, I got another show? Great. I'm out. Even though I would have loved to have stayed with South Pacific longer, but another show came along, another credit, work with Dolly Parton.

Howard:

I was like, this is a no-brainer.

POJ:

Yeah.

Howard:

This is no-brainer.

POJ:

Now, the reviews for 9 to 5 were mixed, but not necessarily horrible. And of the ones that I read, they would criticize some elements of this this direction or set design, you know, whatever. And when I saw it, that was pretty much my experience. I could nitpick little things, but overall, I enjoyed the show. It's an enjoyable show because the music is great, the performances were great. Was there a sense that that enjoyment of the show was going to carry the day rather than these negative reviews?

Howard:

[Speaker:JULIE] Totally. Well, we thought we have stars, we have a really fun show, we have a known entity in Nine to Five, It's, you know, like it, you know, people know it and love it. And you know, it was very disappointing. And plus we're also in the ginormous theater of the Marriott Marquis, which is notoriously difficult to fill those seats anyway. You know, you start seeing those sales decline and knowing the producing team having been, I think, over on the set and lighting budget and, you know, ticket sales not being what they would have wanted. I think, you know, I think they— Spilled the blood.

POJ:

When did you find out— when did the cast find out that it was going to be closing?

Howard:

I think, you know, we opened in the spring, and I think it was towards the end of the summer. So it lasted longer than some of my other shows.

POJ:

[LAUGHTER] How did they present the closing? What was their reasoning behind it that they gave you?

Howard:

Oh, well, they don't give you a reason. You just get a company meeting and they tell you the show is closing. You don't get— there's no explanation. No one sits you down and shows you the numbers and, here's our nut, here's what we're pulling in, we've got to pay the invest— they don't tell you any of that. You know, you just sit and pray every week and you look at the numbers going down and you're like, and then you get that meeting and everyone's like, oh man, you know?

POJ:

So was there a sense of seeing it coming or was it a surprise?

Howard:

Yes, I think people were seeing it coming, definitely.

POJ:

And so what was that closing night like?

Howard:

It's always bittersweet. I remember we had a party, we went someplace afterwards, uh, you know, like you do, um, but it was fun. And it, you know, you obviously, you always bond with a new cast and everyone, you know, you're gonna miss each other and— but that's that thing, everyone, you always kind of have a foot out the door anyway looking for that next, next job. And so it was like, oh, sorry guys, this was, you know, we hope it was going to last, but, uh, c'est la

POJ:

vie. Well, that takes us into the next story, which was a few years later, but this was Escape to Margaritaville. And you actually thought that this was going to be your golden ticket. I mean, you got, you got Jimmy Buffett music, you have the built-in audience, you have a fun story, and your out-of-town run was actually pretty great. And this out-of-town run was rather lengthy, especially for a Broadway show. It started at La Jolla Playhouse in San Diego, then went to New Orleans, Houston, and Chicago. Now, Was the show being worked on through all of these various cities?

Howard:

Yeah, definitely. You know, little tweaks here and there, new jokes, new this, you know. It was a fun, silly show with music, you know, and great choreography, you know, fun costumes. You're on an island, and the, the volcano erupts. I mean, it's just fun.

POJ:

Now, they had to make up the story. It's not like 9 to 5 where they had an existing— they had to make up a story around his music. Did that story continue to change, or did it stay kind of set once you were involved?

Howard:

It definitely continued to change, like, through the workshops, through the out-of-town runs. You know, we had these characters who were like island zombies, kind of. Um, and those definitely morphed over the time. You're like, what is this? Who are they? You know, sometimes songs were replaced, or, you know, like you do in a rehearsal. But it was a really fun show. Just fun and funny because our writers also were TV writers too. And so the— I thought the comedy was hilarious. It was just a lot of fun.

Howard:

You know, you're thinking that is a built-in audience of years and years of fandom for Jimmy Buffett music. Now, it wasn't the story of Jimmy Buffett. They took his songs and made a show like Mamma Mia, how they took ABBA songs, made a story about it. You know, let's be real. Mamma Mia! Fun show. Is it a great show? No offense to anyone who wrote it or was in it, but it's fun. And everybody loves the music. It is fun.

Howard:

It's silly. There's a romance story. And you sing— everybody sings at the end in fun costumes, right?

POJ:

And was that kind of the template, thinking this is another Mamma Mia! in that vein?

Howard:

Right. And, and the— I mean, the writers weren't thinking that. It was its own thing. But, you know, in my mind, it's— Certainly is in that category. And I personally thought it's a better actual show than Mamma Mia. So I was like, this is great. I'm gonna ride this one, ride it on out. I mean, they're gonna have to kick me out of this sucker, right? You know, this is what I'm thinking.

Howard:

You know, I was like, I got my own dressing room. I'm here at the Marquis again. It's at the Marriott Marquis. I should have been wary. And, uh, 'Cause we obviously closed much sooner than I had anticipated. And I, I, I think it was your first year in a show. Success is based on the New York audience. And then the tourists pick it up once they've heard about it and heard good reviews.

Howard:

And then that's, you know, your second year and beyond, it's tourists really. And the New York audiences were not about it. They were like, Mm-hmm. In any— on tour it did great. You know, I just don't think the New York audience was in love with that. And they, I think they went in kind of like not ready to not like it, you know?

POJ:

Well, it wasn't just Jimmy Buffett music. I was reading, it's a, it's a list of songwriters and other songs that were included. Do you think that that helped, you know, bolster Jimmy Buffett's music or distracted from it?

Howard:

I don't know. It was mostly his, and maybe he collaborated with somebody on a certain song. But it was, you know, like, that was the feel of the show. That island vibe is 5 o'clock somewhere, you know. You got a beach ball— beach balls dropped from the ceiling at the end. Come on! That's fun!

POJ:

[LAUGHTER] I mean, that reminds me of SpongeBob. They had beach balls too. So maybe that's a clue. If your show involves beach balls, think twice.

Howard:

Maybe. Maybe that's it. Maybe that's it.

POJ:

But you say you had a fun time, and I've certainly had that too, where it can sometimes be funner on stage for the cast than it can be for the audience watching it. Do you think that that's what happened?

Howard:

Or— I mean, maybe, maybe. You had to know what it was. Like, am I saying this was a great piece of theater? No.

POJ:

It was escapism, literally.

Howard:

Exactly. And so if you go into it with an eye of, I want to be moved, well, you're not going to enjoy yourself. Go get a margarita and come and laugh and see great dance— dancing in costumes and funny jokes and stuff like that. I just think, you know, sometimes it's at the wrong time for the audiences. Like, I bet if it had come after the pandemic, it might have done better because people are just like, I just need to escape. You know?

POJ:

Something. Give me something. Yeah.

Howard:

Right.

POJ:

Well, it reminds me a lot of like Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat. It's just one fun song after another. It's not meant to change the world. It's not meant to— it's, it's just fun, silly songs done in a kind of tongue-in-cheek way.

Howard:

Yeah. You know, and you're like, do you know your Bible history? Here we go. Right.

POJ:

And I mean, kinda, I mean, sorta.

Howard:

Kinda, right. You recognize some names and maybe some stories, right? Yeah. Um, so yeah, I just think it was the wrong timing, and we were all just like, "What? I don't— I don't get it," you know?

POJ:

So comparing Margaritaville, that rehearsal process out of town, to 9 to 5, you would say that you enjoyed Margaritaville, that process, a lot more?

Howard:

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. It was totally fun.

POJ:

Now, even though it was still changing, what do you think was the difference between the two?

Howard:

Oh, probably just the energies in the room. It's just whoever's the mix of people, I think, you know, because it's always hard doing a new show because it's always changing. Yeah. Like when you're in previews and stuff and the writers come to you, you know, you've got 4 new joke lines and a set of new lyrics and you gotta do 'em that night. I mean, that's never easy. You know, it's— for me, it's much easier to, put in a new line than it is to put in a new lyric. If I get a new lyric, my brain wants to explode. It terrifies me.

Howard:

But a new line, I'm, I don't know why, but my, I'm like, okay, great, got it. You know, I don't know. Um, but it's a different way of processing. You just kind of have to go with your gut cuz sometimes when you're in a long run or something that's already established and people say, know the lines or know the material, it's a lot of different feeling, you know, when you're in a show and it's something that's already set and established and you're going in and doing it as compared to like, you're literally creating this now. It's a new thing and you're, you're just kind of going for it.

POJ:

But that's exactly what you did with Spelling Bee. That was very new and, you know, changing all the time, but that came more from you rather than these creatives giving you things.

Howard:

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and also, the creatives too. But I have to say, I have been very blessed, very lucky to been in— 5 out of my 6 Broadway credits are new shows. I've only had to go in and replace once. And that was in, um, Priscilla, you know? So that's just go in and learn, here's the choreography, here's, here's your songs, go for it. It's really such a different experience when you are putting up a show for the first time.

POJ:

Yeah. Now, you mentioned those New York audiences and kind of turned their nose up at it. Was that a surprise based upon your reaction audiences out of town?

Howard:

Totally. We got great reviews. And of course, there's some mix in there too, but for the most part, it was a hit. People liked it. It was fun, silly, great music, beach balls, margaritas.

POJ:

[LAUGHTER] So when it comes to— the closing of Margaritaville, did it kind of seem inevitable once the reviews came out, once audiences weren't really taking to it?

Howard:

Did it— Yeah.

POJ:

And the writing was on the wall.

Howard:

Yeah. You know, we're like, come on, Jimmy Buffett, can't you just float us for a while? I mean, you know, he just, he probably has the money to do it, but of course he's not gonna do that, you know? But yeah, of course, especially when you've been in the business as long as I have and you're like, oh no. Here it comes. You could just see it.

POJ:

Was Jimmy Buffett a part of that process? Was he more involved?

Howard:

A lot. Yeah, he was there. He was there a lot. I mean, he wasn't there daily in the rehearsal room, but he was there a lot. And sometimes, um, he would come and do the bows and finale with us. And he'd come out and sing a song, and we'd all sing with him. And it was a lot of fun. We got to hang out and go out and, you know, really get to know him and his band.

Howard:

He invited us when they go play at Jones Beach, and they— oh, every year it's a huge concert. We came and sang on stage with him, and it was awesome, you know? Like, so we really got to know him and his crew, and yeah, it's a lot of fun. And Boyd is— he's a smart businessman, right? Right, right.

POJ:

He's not just creative. He also has the business smarts.

Howard:

Yeah.

POJ:

And for this closing night, it actually wasn't your last time to perform it, right? A few days later, you got to do something in Washington, DC.

Howard:

Yeah. We had already been booked, I guess, we got to do the 4th of July celebration in front of the Capitol. So that was really way to go out with a bang, you know?

POJ:

Right, right. So you had your closing night on the 1st, I believe. And then the 4th came and you was like, well, this is actually closing, I guess.

Howard:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we just did a couple of numbers, but yeah, that was our really the way out. So that was kind of fun.

POJ:

Did the whole cast come back for that or— Yeah.

Howard:

Oh, yeah. I mean, it was a couple days later. So we were like, sure.

POJ:

Why not? Why not?

Howard:

I could use the money.

POJ:

Now, for this closing night, was it just as enjoyable? You know, obviously bittersweet again.

Howard:

Yeah. You know, especially when you're like, I'm not going to see these people every day again. You know, you make the best of it. And we had kind of all felt it coming for a little while. So, you know, you're, you're geared up. You're ready to, say your goodbyes. And plus we knew we were gonna see each other in Washington and get to do, you know, get to do it again. So yeah, we still have a text thread that people say happy birthday to everybody.

Howard:

People share stories. Oh, someone got engaged. You know, like we have a text thread, uh, that we still keep in contact with everybody. We still have one for my spelling bee fam too.

POJ:

Oh, wow.

Howard:

Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

POJ:

And texting was relatively new back then.

Howard:

Yeah. So we've all kept in touch and— Like Dan Fogler sent us the most hilarious, like New Year's or was it New Year's or Christmas? It, it, like a video, just a pi— just being goofy, you know, just sent it to everybody. Um, so there's a lot of connection in that way. You know, you get really close when you spend that much time at, you know, you get really close and then you're like, okay, bye. It's not like people who have a regular job and they're at that job for 10 years and they see the same people, you know, like you're at a job, you're lucky if it's months, if it's years, whoa, you're really lucky, you know? So it's, it's just a different thing. People come in and outta your life and there's just a handful that you really still keep in touch with.

POJ:

So for story number 3, you wanted to talk about being a plus-size lady in the entertainment industry and how that's really not for the faint of heart because just keeping at it and, and you hope that you never have to take roles where your weight is really a part of that character. And what was the first role where that was a part where weight was a sensual aspect of the character?

Howard:

I actually think— because Spelling Bee, it was not. South Pacific, it was not. 9 to 5, it was not, which is amazing. Then came It Should Have Been You, which was great. I mean, it literally was, like, the main plot point, which is fine because it was very much so pertained to that story. Poor Jenny. Sweet Jenny. Such a pretty face, but how you— Eat, Jenny.

Howard:

I swear there's not a man you couldn't date if you lose some weight. But then after that came Escape to Margaritaville, which it was, again, part of the story. And I was like, this cannot be a theme. I have to just be a person. Like, you know, because you often get pigeonholed and that's all you're seen as, which the industry is changing because now you see more and more people of all shapes and sizes and it doesn't have to be talked about. They're just people because it was almost like the elephant in the room. Like if there was somebody in a leading part, if they were heavier and you didn't mention their weight, it was like awkward or something, or they felt like they had to, to like justify why you were there or in the story. It was very strange.

Howard:

And it just is, is difficult to be a part of that too many times where, you know, like it, you have to talk about it. It's, you know, 'cause people go around their whole lives and they're just people, you know. Um, can't they just be whoever and not have it be an issue that needs to be spoken about or joked about or laughed off or something? So I, I feel like that is changing, uh, which is a good thing.

POJ:

And I would think, and just from looking from the outside, that, that is more an issue when it comes to a plus-size woman versus a plus-size man? Oh, totally.

Howard:

Yeah. And, you know, it just depends on the story. And it did— but so many interviews I've had, and, and people bring it up like, "Wow, you know, you're plus-size, and you're still doing this," you know? And you're like, "Yeah, I don't know. I'm just me, and I've always looked this way, and I'm just doing theater." You know, like, I, I realized— Was

POJ:

it almost like a questioning? Like, how can you do this and be plus size?

Howard:

Yeah, all of it. Any question you can imagine. Or something— and also, I'm tall too. I remember when I was in my— early on in my career, my agent said something to me like, the conundrum that is Howard. Because if you're short and heavier, Oh, best friend role. Or if you sound a certain way, or, you know, you're the funny gal, or, um, but I was tall and curvy and pretty. People were like, I don't get it. Do you know? It was like, like, it, it was a very, like, the conundrum that is, you know, so I, I mean, honestly, and there really aren't roles written for that, whatever that is, you know? So I really did just kind of forge on being like, well, I don't know, I'm just doing it.

Howard:

Everyone's like, what roles are you interested in? I'm like, well, there's nothing really written for me. You know, eventually I'd love to play Mama Rose in Gypsy, but you know what I mean? Like, I don't know. You know, because there is nothing. So that's why I was so glad to have come across a character like Rhona. She's just a person who happens to look a certain way. And so then once I started getting into the show about— you know, the main plot point is— talking about your weight. And then the next one to be, I was, I almost didn't take Margaritaville because I was like, when I was doing the workshops, they were a lot more like literal fat jokes. And I was like, I can't, it's in, I, it, it's too much, you know? And they toned it down.

Howard:

But in the end, I mean, I got the guy and you know, he was like, I don't care. You know, it was good. And, but, and when we first started the show, I was like, This is a lot. This is extreme. Can we not make it that? Like, ooh, it made everyone in the room uncomfortable. Well, well, yeah.

POJ:

Yeah. I mean, because it's, yeah, whenever you're pointing out someone's physical characteristic and it's kind of the butt of a joke, that can be funny and you can do it lighthearted or it can be very awkward and uncomfortable because I— You're

Howard:

like, I'm right here. Yeah. It's— I'm standing here. I am in the room.

POJ:

Because I, I had a, another guest on a couple of seasons ago, and he was a heavier set gentleman who then eventually lost some weight. But during his heavier phase, he was often— he, he had a brother who was also bigger, and they would do a lot of fat jokes or things that were centered around them being bigger. And, and so he was fine with that as long as he was the one in charge of where that joke went. But a lot of times it was just, okay, well, you need to get up now, and then you need to fall on your face because that's You know, it was like put upon him, like, "Because you're bigger, we're gonna put you in these situations."

Howard:

Exactly. Yeah. So it's— it has definitely been a challenging part of my career, and I've had to talk about it in every interview known to man.

POJ:

And you're like— Well, now you brought it up here. I didn't ask.

Howard:

Well, that's— but that's purposely because you were talking about what's a challenge or what has been a challenge in, you know, in this industry. And, you know, that being one of them. So I know I brought it up, but only because, like, everybody asks you about it and you're like, "Huh, really? Okay." You know?

POJ:

I mean, I'm trying to think through, like, yes, yes, someone who's bigger stands out from someone who's skinnier. But I, I would also say that in reverse, someone who's really skinny stands out from someone who's— So why do you think that your size is such an issue or has been such a focal point?

Howard:

I think because it's still the last, like, taboo thing in our society and it's, it's still something that people think it's okay to make fun of someone about, you know what I mean? There's so many things that are PC and that, and, but I have to say in the last, you know, the culture is shifting most definitely, but it's, it was still something that people are— were shunned for, ashamed for so many. Things about it that when you are on stage, for one, everything's exaggerated when you're on stage. So me being tall and big, like, I'm a big presence on stage. I can't tell you— I cannot tell you how many people see me on stage and then meet me afterwards, and they're like, oh, you're like normal size. On stage, you look like a giant. And you're like, bless you. Thanks. Bless you.

Howard:

I realize that. I've heard that literally after every show. Like, someone will meet me at the stage door, and I'm like, I, I'm 5'8", you know, and they'll be like, oh, you're just like normal. I'm like, yeah. Yes, I am. You know, when I go to the grocery, nobody looks twice at me. Do you know what I mean? Like if I'm out, no, you know, I'm, it's not like crazy, but on stage somehow it just magnifies everything, you know? So people are always like, oh, look at that.

POJ:

And how has this messed with your own perception of yourself?

Howard:

Um, I don't know what would necessarily say messed with it, but there's, there's always gonna be baggage from, especially growing up in the time I did of having— what do I— what's a good way to put it? Weight issues, or, you know, like not being necessarily the healthiest weight. And I don't know what's the best way to, to put that, but like, I mean, I've literally been that type my whole life, so it just is who I am. And then there's some parts where you're like, well, if it's so wrong, it does make you feel like, okay, well, there's something wrong with me then. You know, because I've never been this other thing. It's not like I was thin in my youth and then gained a bunch of weight. You know, like I kind of looked the same. There was a period, especially when I was having babies, that I was a little heavier. And so then I've lost, you know, I'm back down to where my, I, I was.

Howard:

You know, um, so yeah, I don't know about me, like necessarily messed with me. I can see if I was once like felt muscles and all that, and then I changed, I can see if that would really mess you up. But I'm like, I don't know. It's literally always been what I've looked like, you know, when I was younger, of course I was thinner and I'm like, God, I wish I still looked like that, but it's been still in the same ballpark, you know? So I, I can't really say that it's completely, something's completely shifted. It's just I am who I am. And, and maybe that's why I've just been able to been like, well, I don't know. I'm just going to do what I do. And somebody's going to cast me in something, you know, which is obviously proven true.

Howard:

Let me knock on some wood. Because you never know when your last show's going to be.

POJ:

Right?

Howard:

So I don't know if anything really— if it definitely shaped. But, you know, being in society and having all those negative messages around— what that means to be heavier, you know, because for someone who's never struggled with it, they just think you are lazy or have no willpower. And it's not necessarily the case. It's not what it is really, you know, like everybody just processes things differently, or it's what your family patterns and all of that stuff. Like there's so many things that go into it. And so there's definitely still a, I feel like in society in general, looking down at, you know, someone, if you're not this, well, you must, you're doing something wrong. You're lazy or, you know, you're ignorant or you just don't have any willpower and therefore you're somehow less.

POJ:

And does that perception, does that tend to just kind of roll off your back and you're able to keep going? Or do you fight against it and get angry at it? How do you respond?

Howard:

No, I, I definitely don't get angry. I don't really fight against it, but there have been times, I guess, for me, it kind of is what it is. But I also, I think it has had me set expectations of, I know what the industry is, I know what they're going to cast, and I know I'm not gonna get that role. I haven't been like, oh my God, I really, I could do that role. I'm like, sure, I probably could. And do it really well, but I know I'm not gonna be cast in it, so I'm gonna go for that role. You know, I just— you just have to be smart about it. Like, if you know what the, the industry is, and you know, if I look like a giant on stage, I'm not gonna get cast.

Howard:

You know, like, you just have to be smart about it because that is what it is. Now granted, nowadays, in the past several years, casting and people in general are having a broader vision of what it's okay to look like, which is great, which is great. So I have to say, I, I most definitely felt a shift in that story. What was it? The last show Bonnie Milligan was in, she was a key— the lead character, and it was never mentioned. She just was who she was. Fantastic, you know? Like, she just was— she was just a person, and she just happened to be that character.

POJ:

Exactly.

Howard:

You know, and it wasn't a plot point, thank God. I anticipate more things like that coming because there are so many people, especially, you know— I think even with fashion, people are, you know, people are just being more accepting of different people and different bodies different genders and all the things, you know? So I, I think we're on the right path.

POJ:

Well, let's get into these audition stories that you wanted to talk about. I love both of these. The first is for Spelling Bee. You say it was very unique and only happened because you knew Bill Finn from NYU graduate writing program. So how did it go from just knowing him to then auditioning for him?

Howard:

So Vadim Feichner ended up being our musical director. I knew him from the NYU graduate musical theater writing program, which William Finn— Bill Finn is also an adjunct professor there. So for years, Every spring I would go and do their graduate thesis projects. So Bill has seen me do every kind of role, every kind of whatever, you know, I knew him for several years, for quite a few years prior to that. And I knew Vadim who was gonna be doing this workshop of— that Bill was having it. I didn't even know about it. Didn't even hear about it. A guy I was dating at the time said, did you get an audition for this Bill Finn show? I said, what Bill Finn show? So I called the dean Feichner and I say, you know, I said, what's this Bill Fin show? I didn't hear about it.

Howard:

And he was like, ugh, don't bother. We're making like 2 cents up in the Berkshires. I don't know, something about a spelling bee. I don't know. Don't bother. I said, don't bother. You don't think so? And I was— he was like, no. I was like, okay, fine.

Howard:

Didn't pursue it. And, and so then I was working out of town somewhere, just happened to be home. For the weekend or something. I was at my friend's house, friend's apartment in Brooklyn, having a glass of wine. I get a call from Vadim and he says, uh, we're having auditions for that Bill Finn thing. Um, and he wants you to come in. I was like, Vadim, I'm in Brooklyn. I don't have my book with— he was like, literally right now.

Howard:

Can you come in right now? It's like in the af— it's like early evening. And he was like, can you come in? And I was like, well, I don't, I don't have anything with me. I'm at a friend's house. And he— Carmel Dean, who was the associate musical director, she's like, I've got a book of music. He's like, just come in and sing something. Like, I don't know what, doesn't matter. So I left my friend's house, got on the train, went down to the NYU area downtown, went in the room. I sang Somewhere Over the Rainbow.

Howard:

'cause I knew it. And then Carm was like, I've got a book I'm playing for somebody's cabaret later. Do you know any of these songs? So I flipped through someone else's book and I sang something from City of Angels 'cause I had sung it once in college.

POJ:

And then— So, so did you just like stand over the accompanist as they play? Yes. It's like, I think I remember this. Oh my gosh.

Howard:

Then they had me— the— The people from the original company, the improv group who had come up with this spelling bee idea that then Bill was adapting into a musical, they described the character of Brona to me, just described her, here she is, and then said, now talk to us as her. I was like, okay. I don't know what I said or what I did. No idea. Rachel Shankin, the book writer, was also there. And, um, and then that was it. And then I got cast. Later come to find out that at— after we opened in the Berkshires, um, or I think maybe it was after the, the first workshop production and, you know, it was really fun and everything.

Howard:

And we were standing there with, uh, Rebecca Feldman, who was from the original, um, improv group, and then Bill Finn, and he was like, "Rebecca didn't want to cast you. She didn't think you were funny. But I told her, I told her she can do anything. I've seen her do every kind of role. And— but she didn't want to get— but I insisted." And I was like, "Oh, dawg!"

POJ:

That is— like, that's always so funny to hear about the bickering that goes back and forth after we leave the audition room about someone trying to convince another person. I— 'cause I've had that before too. That I was cast in something and turns out the director did not want you.

Howard:

Yes. Like, okay. And so Rachel Shankin came to my defense. She was like, in your defense, um, you did exactly what they told you to do. But I'm not— I wasn't from that improv world. And so, like, they wanted it to be funny, you know what I mean? But I just acted like the character. Do you know what I mean? Like, I wasn't sticky. Like, I just— she was like, you did exactly what they told you to do.

Howard:

And it was— It was totally fine. You know what I mean? But it, I wasn't like yucking it up, you know? Like I, cuz I, that just wasn't my world. I don't know. But like, I just acted like the character, you know? So, oh God. And, um, so Rachel was like, no, no, he was— but you know, the, the improv people didn't want me, but Bill was like, I need someone who can sing.

POJ:

Oh my God. That's so funny.

Howard:

He's the only reason. Why I was in the show.

POJ:

Now, your next audition story was for Big Fish, and it didn't have as happy an ending to that one.

Howard:

No. I mean, sometimes you just go in and bomb. Let's be real.

POJ:

Oh, it happens.

Howard:

Yes. My, my parents were in town. Like, literally, my mom was sitting outside the audition room with me.

POJ:

Oh.

Howard:

And I probably didn't prepare as much as I should. I went in. I gave my, uh, the accompanist the music. I don't know, like we weren't in sync at all. And you know, when something like that happens, I should have stopped, gone over and said, oh, I'm so sorry, I was off sync. Let me talk to the accompanist and, you know, get on track here. We'll start over. Right? That's what I should have done.

Howard:

Did I? No.

POJ:

Barrel ahead.

Howard:

Plowed on. Yeah. Plowed on through. And so then when you're off and you know you're off, all acting goes out the window. And I just sang real loud, just real loud at 'em.

POJ:

I can't tell— Do you remember what song you sang?

Howard:

Oh, no. No idea. I've blocked it out. Yeah.

POJ:

It's a song you never want to do again.

Howard:

But I do remember someone, and I couldn't even tell you who it was, but it was just a whole table full of people, you know, all the bigwigs. And someone looked up at me and they were like, Belt much? Thank you. And I was like, oh, God. And I slunk— I slunk out of the room. I was like, oh, belt much? You know? And it's like— Oh, God. And that was it. It was awful. I was like, well, I wouldn't have cast me.

Howard:

That was terrible.

POJ:

Now, where was this in the audition process? Had you gotten a callback?

Howard:

Is that— You know, I don't even know. But there was a whole room full of people.

POJ:

It was— Well, I assume it was a callback if everyone was there.

Howard:

Yeah. I had not gone in before, but you know, sometimes your agents just— you don't have to go through the prescreen thing.

POJ:

Yeah.

Howard:

And you just go in. Maybe— They were expecting me to be good. Yeah. But apparently, that didn't happen. Maybe you should have been prescreened. Maybe I should have been prescreened, 'cause damn. I was like, "Oh, God." I left. I walked out and I was like, "It was so terrible." I mean, sometimes it happens.

Howard:

Yeah.

POJ:

And what do you do when those bad auditions? Do you, like, go— get a great meal? Do you— what do you do?

Howard:

Oh, I don't have any set thing. I ruminate. I have usually have a pit in my stomach and I talk about it incessantly for probably an hour. Mm-hmm. And then I'm done.

POJ:

Okay.

Howard:

But I feel sick. I feel slightly sick for about an hour and I'm like, oh, I'm a housewife.

POJ:

You're just replaying it over.

Howard:

You're, you're replaying and you're slightly embarrassed. And, and then eventually I was done. And then you're done and you're like, "OK, next!" You know, but yeah, for that little bit of time, you feel slightly sick to yourself. Oh my gosh.

POJ:

Oh my gosh. That's crazy. That's crazy.

Howard:

Yeah.

POJ:

Well, let's get into these final 5 questions. So the first one is, what was your very first experience in theater or on stage?

Howard:

Very first was getting a solo in the Christmas pageant at my elementary school. Ah, yeah.

POJ:

What did you sing? Did you sing A Christmas Carol or—

Howard:

The song called Christmas Is a Feeling. I could sing it for you now if you'd like.

POJ:

Christmas Is a Feeling? What feeling is it?

Howard:

Christmas is a feeling, filling the air with love and joy and laughter and people everywhere. That's love.

POJ:

I love the— and how old were

Howard:

you when that— 5th grade. Love it.

POJ:

Oh my gosh. I love that you still remember.

Howard:

Yeah. It was my very first solo ever. Of course I remember it. Wow.

POJ:

That's wonderful.

Howard:

Well, I did like little solo things, but real, like performing where you're like doing a dance and things like that. I did show choir. I auditioned in junior high at— it was like end of my 7th grade year going into 8th grade. I auditioned for the countywide ETC All-American Youth Show Choir. Love it.

POJ:

Oh my gosh, that's great. That's great. Well, number 2, how has the industry changed most since you first started?

Howard:

Mm. Well, we talked— we kind of talked about that a little bit, I think.

POJ:

Yeah, that's certainly one way it's changed as far as, like, just accepting people for who they are.

Howard:

Yep. Um, also, you don't have to— I don't even remember what night it was, but everything's digital now. You don't have to have really the hard headshot— the hard copy headshots, although you still should have some. Uh, everything's digital. You don't have to go and get the Backstage from the newsstand on late Thursday night or early Friday morning, right, when you had to go get the Backstage magazine to find out the auditions.

POJ:

Mm-hmm.

Howard:

Yeah. I don't know. I mean, big things like that. I, I think, um, you know, it's always been commercial since I've been in it too, you know, so where— using celebrity names, try to get the butts in the seats. But I mean, it's always been like that. I, I think having a, a bit more diversity in the casting and the fact that it's moving along with the modern age and everything's digitized and, and social media actually, because trying to promote yourself before was— it was very difficult, you know, like you're sending— and it also wasn't expected. It wasn't expected. And now you've got to have a certain number of followers, and if it's between you and somebody else and somebody else, the other person has a— you might be equally as talented.

Howard:

Somebody else has a huge social media following. A lot of times they're gonna get the job, which is— makes me wanna throw up a little bit. Like, wow.

POJ:

Yeah. But throw up on them.

Howard:

Yes.

POJ:

And then like, yeah.

Howard:

And then show me how to get more followers. Right? Right. And then, and then tell me how to do that. I'm gonna barf on you, but then can you show— can you help me with that?

POJ:

But then show me how to do that. Yes, please.

Howard:

Yeah.

POJ:

Yeah.

Howard:

But yeah, so that's really about promoting yourself. 'Cause now, I mean, anybody can get their music out. You can produce your own albums, you can, you know, there's just so many more ways that you can promote yourself, promote your business, promote you, you know? 'Cause I think that's why I struggle with it a little bit because I didn't grow up with a cell phone in my hand taking selfies and promote, you know, like what I was— that was like, kind of like, oh, look at— showing off kind of thing. Like, it's a complete different mental shift. Like, I really have to make myself post and stuff.

POJ:

I still kind of laugh at those people though. I'm like, whenever they're just like walking by and all of a sudden they go, you know, with that, with that face— like, they're walking along, normal face, and then all of a sudden the selfie face comes and it's like, whoa. And the pucker— oh my gosh, the lips. I don't get it. I still kind of laugh. I know, even though it's Everyone does it now.

Howard:

Literally. It's a, it's a complete 180 for, you know, like people you were made fun of or looked down upon for being so— it's like self-centered and oh, look at the, you know, like the

POJ:

selfie stick and all that.

Howard:

Yeah. It was a whole thing. And now like it's expected. You're making reels and all the— it's the whole thing. Yeah. Makes us sound old.

POJ:

I, I know it's— we're the curmudgeons now.

Howard:

Ugh.

POJ:

I know. So. So with that in mind, number 3, what does success, making it, what, what does that mean to you now?

Howard:

I often joke and say, I'm still here. I'm still doing it.

POJ:

Sometimes just surviving. Yeah.

Howard:

Just surviving, making a living. And sometimes, you know, you've got to have that side job to pay the bills still, you know, um, but being okay with that and finding other ways of being creative, maybe you're not in a theater show, but if you're still doing something creative and making money from it, that is a-okay. That is success. That is doing it. Cuz I often find, you know, theater, like doing theater jobs, like it's who's writing what, what's the timing? Like you just never know when it's coming, but it— you've got to fulfill that creative bug. Um, there are many different ways that I have supported myself. Over the years, and you just have to be okay with that if you're still, if you're still wanting to do this. And I think that is being success.

Howard:

Sometimes I still, I, I joke and I'm like, am I still here? Like, what am I doing? You know, because it is such an up and down industry. Um, but I'm definitely not ready to throw in the towel, you know? So you just make it work. Like we, you and I, we're waiting to hear. Is 42nd Street doing anything?

POJ:

We'll see.

Howard:

We'll see.

POJ:

But we'll just keep going.

Howard:

Right. You know, like, everybody asks me, so what's next? I'm like, I don't know. And then, like, that blows their mind. They're like, how, how, how do you do that? You just— I, I don't know. You just get used to it, and you kind of— it's a me— for

POJ:

me, I, I act like it's not going to happen. Like, like, in some way, it's like, whether it happens or not, I have to just assume it's not and move on.

Howard:

Right.

POJ:

And then if it does, bonus.

Howard:

Right. Like, you know, I'm— a lot of times I'll do, like, masterclasses with theater students or workshops or, you know, teach voice lessons. And I took a couple months off, like, with November, December after our show closed. And now I'm like, I've really got to do something. That Wicked money's going away really fast. I was like, I got— I got to make some money. So let me call in my— my people, who— whose students can I work with? Who, you know, who's doing a show at 54 Below? You want— you know, I'll sing some songs. You, you know, like you do those things to fill in the gaps in between the big projects that, you know, really pay the bills.

POJ:

Well, number 4, what is a, uh, personal lesson that's taken you a while to learn or one that you're still working on to this day?

Howard:

I'm like, how much time you got? Just kidding.

POJ:

Um, and the therapy session starts now, right?

Howard:

No, it really is about taking care of yourself and learning when to say no, because that's hard sometimes in this business. You, you know, you feel like you have to say yes to everything because that opportunity might come along or, or whatever. But, but sometimes, like even for auditions, like if I, I have too much going on or whatever, like I've definitely learned the power of saying, you know, I really can't do that right now. I can't, I can't take it. And you know, sometimes like I, I've turned down audition offers and job offers because it's gonna take me out of town this spring. And I literally was just on the, road for almost a year and I've got kids. I can't, even though I want that job, I really would love that job and it would be fun and I would make some money, but I can't, like, I, I just can't right now. And, and that, that it's, you know what, there's gonna be other shows.

Howard:

You just have to keep having that faith in it that something else will come along. You know, like I was joking earlier, I was like, you never know when another show is gonna happen. Um, you know? Uh, but you'd have to make the choices for your mental health, for your family, for all of that. And sometimes that means saying, I'm sorry, I can't do that. You know? And so I think that's the biggest lesson learned and not feeling bad about it. Because you always feel like, oh, I, I should take that. They got me that audition, or, oh, they're offering me that. I, I, well, of course you have to take it.

Howard:

You know, like sometimes it's not, it's wor— not worth it on one level or another. So that's a big lesson to learn.

POJ:

And when you have— because this certainly happens often as well— where you have multiple offers, maybe 1, 2, 3 at a time, how do you differentiate, or what goes into making your decision one way or the other?

Howard:

Well, it doesn't happen very often that I have multiple offers.

POJ:

No, no, it doesn't happen very often, but it's happened, you know, a handful of times in my career.

Howard:

Yeah, yeah. Um, sometimes one project might be more art— artistically fulfilling, but the paycheck's not there. And oftentimes with, you know, especially having a family to support— if it was just me, it'd be a different story. But I, you know, sometimes, you know, oh, you're— I'm gonna be making how much? Okay, well, I'll have to take that job, you know? And you know where it's, it's the big machine show and you're just a cog in the wheel and you get put in and you're great. And you know, as compared to, oh my gosh, here's a new show and it's the lead role. Here's a supporting sho— role. In a, a well-established show, but this one's gonna pay you more. I'm sorry, right now I got a family, I gotta do this one, you know? So I, I've definitely had to make that choice.

Howard:

Yeah. Yeah.

POJ:

Well, number 5, what is the most useful advice that you've received and how have you applied that to your own life or career?

Howard:

Um, keep putting yourself out there. If something's not— coming, if your agents, you know, there's nothing coming down the pike or you haven't had an audition in a while or whatever it is, you know, whatever it is, then make the opportunity. Like, you know, say you, you have this podcast that's making the opportunity. Uh, nothing's coming along. Um, write a solo show, do an album. Why do you think I have a Christmas album? Because there was nothing coming. You know, it's the pandemic, nothing's happening. Okay.

Howard:

I need some way to get myself out there, to be creative, to use my skills, I'll do a Christmas album. Keep putting yourself out there, doing the auditions, but also if those aren't coming, forge a path of something. Make it— do it yourself. Give your own self the opportunity.

POJ:

I like that. Well, this has been wonderful to talk to you. I love just talking to you and laughing with you. So I really appreciate you coming on the podcast.

Howard:

This was very fun. Thanks for having me.

POJ:

Thank you so much for joining us in our conversation today. If you know someone who you think could benefit from this episode, please tell them about this podcast. Well, that about does it for this episode. I'm your host, POJ, in charge of writing, editing, and producing this podcast. Background music is from John Bartman. And the theme song, that was created by me. Be sure to join me next time as we talk more about why I'll never make it.